jamboinglasgow Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Ollie shaw released by us and banging them in for hibs. Looking at Hibs, their Under 20s may be doing well but they dont get chances in the first team. Certainly looking at their last 6 games, the youngest player to come through the academy to get a game is Cummings. The only youngster that appears on their bench is Crane. And with Lennon signing like there is no tomorrow (following Stubbs recruitment) their under 20 team feels like its something to show off but nothing they want long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Kelly's Hands Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I know where you are coming from, but it is becoming all too easy to blame the previous regime for lack of investment. The guys that we have seen come through over the last two or three seasons are the products of the old regime's time in charge of the academy, so they can't really be accused of neglecting the Academy, at least up to 2012. What we have now are hopes that it will all come good in two or three seasons time when the current U16s might be capable of fighting for a place in the first team squad. This is now the fifth successive season where results/performances of the U19/U20s have been bang average at best. Another two or three seasons could take us up to seven or eight seasons. That is beyond the Academy careers of any kid. I think the perceived problems may be down more to ineffective scouting / recruitment, and on the coaching side I personally think the style of play we adopt is too passive to be successful in the Scottish game. For the record the U19/U20/Development League positions have been as follows: 2016/17 - currently 16th out of 17 2015/16 - 12th out of 17 2014/15 - 15th out of 17 2013/14 - 16th out of 16 2012/13 - 10th of of 15 2011/12 (U19s) - 2nd out of 12 2010/11 (U19s) - 2nd out of 12 Who were the mainstays of the sides in 2010 - 2012? Walker, Holt, D Smith, B King, Hamilton, Paterson McHattie, Carrick, Prychynenko, Robinson, McKay, Nicholson, McGhee. From what I've seen of the Academy teams this season, the middle age groups of U14-U16 give some hope that more than just the one or two might make it. These are the last age groups that were first recruited into the academy under the old regime. However, I just haven't seen a general raising of standards at the youngest age groups, barring the odd individual performance over the last couple of years while the new regime has been in place. It may all come good, but I'm yet to be convinced that the new regime's approach is more successful than the previous one. Do we really need our own academy? I would prefer just having an under 20 team with a decent manager that's very closely linked to the first team. Directly recruit 17/18/19 year olds from smaller clubs in Scotland and those that don't make it at the bigger academies down south or in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Do we really need our own academy? I would prefer just having an under 20 team with a decent manager that's very closely linked to the first team. Directly recruit 17/18/19 year olds from smaller clubs in Scotland and those that don't make it at the bigger academies down south or in Europe. That is one of the points that Project Brave is seeking to address. For the size of our country we have far too many kids attending what are funded as elite academies. There is certainly a case for some teams not to have an academy at all, but the absence of a reserve league coupled with the SPL/SPFL insistence that all premier league teams field a side at U20 means that all the premier league sides do spend money on youth development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Looking at Hibs, their Under 20s may be doing well but they dont get chances in the first team. Certainly looking at their last 6 games, the youngest player to come through the academy to get a game is Cummings. The only youngster that appears on their bench is Crane. And with Lennon signing like there is no tomorrow (following Stubbs recruitment) their under 20 team feels like its something to show off but nothing they want long term. The recent signing of commons on the emergency deal and I believe his stay will be extended beyond January tells you all you need to know about youngsters getting chances there. If Lennon doesn't think they're up to doing a job in the championship where will they be comfortable playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Think what people need to remember is this is a development league, clue in the name. Hearts for the main part of the season have been playing 14/15/16 yr olds in the team and that is mixed with a few a little bit older. When they are playing against most of the other teams they are all a good bit older, all full time players so they are stronger, quicker and a little more streetwise. The point of the club doing this is to gauge who has the temprament to play at this level, to push their young players to step up. Hearts have a selection of the u17's in full time on a Thursday training with the 20's so the coaches know what these boys are capable of. Ultimately the goal is to get these boys into the 1st team. Results are nice but the ultimate goal of the coaches and the academy is to put a young player onto the pitch at Tynie, that is success, not wining an under 20's game. I see comments like this, "Why is our U20 side so damn poor" and think to myself why do you watch football. Does it make you feel good to slag off the young boys who play for your teams academy. Support your team and stop thinking you have a divine right to win. Try to see the bigger picture and if you cant then don't say anything at all..... Merry Xmas..... Agree 100%!!!!! Merry Xmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I've not been to a Hearts youth level game in years but I do hear the odd thing from those that do. There doesn't seem to be an awful lot of talent in the current U20s that you would bank on 'making it' (Danny Baur maybe the exception?) Seems to be a wee buzz around the lads who were in the Scotland Victory Shield squad though. MacDonald, Hamilton, Cochrane and Leonard (currently U17s I think). I thought Cochrane was stand out in that tournament but have heard a couple of guys saying MacDonald looks extremely promising. You state you have not been to an u20s game for years,maybe you should get along and watch them before you start slating a very young team,15,16,17,18 year olds in the squad,results are always tight against teams who are playing overage players on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Hmmmmm. I fear the worst Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Take it your sons not playing today Mr Mclean,why would you fear the worst? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I don't think John Daly is cutting the mustard. There's talent there but he's just not bringing it out in them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Why do you think John Daly is not cutting the mustard,hopefully you can enlighten us with your wisdom!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I think it's fair to question academy way generally and the situation at Hearts. But the key to success in anything is the individual's desire and then their willingness to work hard. Then they find what they need. So it's still down to the youngsters themselves mainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We_are_the_Hearts Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Why do you think John Daly is not cutting the mustard,hopefully you can enlighten us with your wisdom!!!Mclean was probably on the bench. We have nothing from 18 and over. Waste of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Think Levein said we took on two players last year. That to me seems very low. We seem to be more interested in signing 8 year olds than 18 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Think Levein said we took on two players last year. That to me seems very low. We seem to be more interested in signing 8 year olds than 18 year olds. We actually signed three (now U17s) in Kyle Smith, Aaron Reid and Andy Irving, although Kyle was actually signed at the end of February and the other two in early June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Mclean was probably on the bench. We have nothing from 18 and over. Waste of time Thats just your OPINION and i do not think young men who are playing with Hearts u20s are a Waste of time they just need to keep working hard they are still DEVELOPING PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY all i can say is good luck to them all,they are living my dream playing with Hearts and i enjoy watching them when i get the opportunity WIN,LOOSE OR DRAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Parmesan Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 You state you have not been to an u20s game for years,maybe you should get along and watch them before you start slating a very young team,15,16,17,18 year olds in the squad,results are always tight against teams who are playing overage players on a regular basis. You seem upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Ingram Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I know where you are coming from, but it is becoming all too easy to blame the previous regime for lack of investment. The guys that we have seen come through over the last two or three seasons are the products of the old regime's time in charge of the academy, so they can't really be accused of neglecting the Academy, at least up to 2012. What we have now are hopes that it will all come good in two or three seasons time when the current U16s might be capable of fighting for a place in the first team squad. This is now the fifth successive season where results/performances of the U19/U20s have been bang average at best. Another two or three seasons could take us up to seven or eight seasons. That is beyond the Academy careers of any kid. I think the perceived problems may be down more to ineffective scouting / recruitment, and on the coaching side I personally think the style of play we adopt is too passive to be successful in the Scottish game. For the record the U19/U20/Development League positions have been as follows: 2016/17 - currently 16th out of 17 2015/16 - 12th out of 17 2014/15 - 15th out of 17 2013/14 - 16th out of 16 2012/13 - 10th of of 15 2011/12 (U19s) - 2nd out of 12 2010/11 (U19s) - 2nd out of 12 Who were the mainstays of the sides in 2010 - 2012? Walker, Holt, D Smith, B King, Hamilton, Mullen, Kane, Paterson McHattie, Carrick, Prychynenko, Robinson, McKay, Nicholson, McGhee. From what I've seen of the Academy teams this season, the middle age groups of U14-U16 give some hope that more than just the one or two might make it. These are the last age groups that were first recruited into the academy under the old regime. However, I just haven't seen a general raising of standards at the youngest age groups, barring the odd individual performance over the last couple of years while the new regime has been in place. It may all come good, but I'm yet to be convinced that the new regime's approach is more successful than the previous one. A better allegation is how they spent this "investment." They signed and paid money for a string of players from (mainly Scottish) clubs who had no chance of playing regularly in our first team. So the scouting wasn't nearly good enough, for starters. The new regime has at least managed to pick up Currie from Rangers for free, which looks a good move. They have also let a pile of previously heralded wonderkids go without being proven wrong about any of them. Roger Arnott and Craig Levein work incredible hours overseeing the youth setup, in Levein's case on top of what he does on more prominent matters. People will be getting into a hello of a state when our promising U17s are moved into the 20s and lose a few games heavily... when that will of course be a deliberate part of the process. To suggest the academy now isn't a radical improvement on before is very strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We_are_the_Hearts Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Thats just your OPINION and i do not think young men who are playing with Hearts u20s are a Waste of time they just need to keep working hard they are still DEVELOPING PHYSICALLY and MENTALLY all i can say is good luck to them all,they are living my dream playing with Hearts and i enjoy watching them when i get the opportunity WIN,LOOSE OR DRAW.I have watched them mate, if any of them are top players i will eat my hat. The whole system in Scotland is flawed. We need to be getting the elite playing in the top leagues at 17 and18. Unfortunately most of the elite play for Celtic and get released at 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We_are_the_Hearts Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If Snodgrass played forCeltic he wouldnt have made it. A wee shitty team like Livi has produced more than them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 You seem upset. No im not upset just disappointed in your negative comments on a very young Hearts team when you have never personally watched them just going on hearsay all the best and MERRY XMAS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidsnot Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Made me laugh when people were trying to make a point online based only on that score. Having followed U19/U20 games for years, mad results like that happen and should not be given too much weight. I remember in a season of Under 19s where we finished 2nd, there was a run of games where we were scoring for fun and winning by 3 or 4 goals, then Hamilton turned up and won 7-0 against us at home. It was a freak result, but if someone saw only that result then they would presume we were poor and Hamilton are an amazing team.Still happens quite often this season as well if you check out a lot of the scores.http://spfl.co.uk/development-league/dev-results/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Hibs youngest player in the U20s tends to be Jamie Gullan (also ex Hearts) who is an U18 atm. When did he leave Hearts. Reason I ask is that his sister told me he is enjoying being at Hibs far more than he did at Hearts. He's a Jambo too, which is disappointing. If he left before Budge and Levein came in it might not be too bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzbomb Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 When did he leave Hearts. Reason I ask is that his sister told me he is enjoying being at Hibs far more than he did at Hearts. He's a Jambo too, which is disappointing. If he left before Budge and Levein came in it might not be too bad Was an early casualty in new regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 When did he leave Hearts. Reason I ask is that his sister told me he is enjoying being at Hibs far more than he did at Hearts. He's a Jambo too, which is disappointing. If he left before Budge and Levein came in it might not be too bad He was released at the end of 2014/15 (his U16 season), moved straight to Hibs where he played his U17 season. He signed a full time contract with Hibs in April 2016. I know that some of the former coaching staff were surprised when he was released, as they were when Ollie Shaw went a year or two earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry-Jam Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 No im not upset just disappointed in your negative comments on a very young Hearts team when you have never personally watched them just going on hearsay all the best and MERRY XMAS! Wow! You certainly don't seem to have the spirit of Xmas. You've lambasted everyone for expressing opinions on this topic that you don't agree with. Were you actually at the U20's game today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidkeye Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If Snodgrass played forCeltic he wouldnt have made it. A wee shitty team like Livi has produced more than them Its a decent point. Youth football is such a lottery though need a bit of luck along the way. The club is not majorly important more a route to first team football as quickly as possible or getting a loan move to the lower leagues quickly. I personally don't think the development league works as well as the reserve league. Just a pity we don't have the finances up here to sustain a good 12-16 team reserve league. Its an awkward situation Scottish football is in just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidkeye Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Do we really need our own academy? I would prefer just having an under 20 team with a decent manager that's very closely linked to the first team. Directly recruit 17/18/19 year olds from smaller clubs in Scotland and those that don't make it at the bigger academies down south or in Europe. Massive argument that could be argued all night not just development but the whole financial picture and would clubs be better off. Overall i'd say its better to stick with the academy system but bring back in the old style reserve league. with only the best two or three from u17 to u19 (or even 16 if good enough) making the jump. I don't think the new style development league does much for development with kids playing against kids mainly. If we can't afford that (reserve league) in Scotland then more rules forcing loans to the lower leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Wow! You certainly don't seem to have the spirit of Xmas. You've lambasted everyone for expressing opinions on this topic that you don't agree with. Were you actually at the U20's game today? Im full of Xmas spirit,im being positive about our VERY YOUNG u20s squad and dont agree with the negative comments,sorry if you see that as me not being in the Xmas spirit so BAH HUMBUG to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzbomb Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Seems like a lot of hostility and resentment towards , in general, a very young group of Hearts boys trying to make their way into professional football. As stated it's a very young team and you know what, they're not being disgraced in their games. They are competing in most games. Anyone who wants to judge them now on where they currently are relative to where they will be in 2 or 3 years is crazy. They are still growing physically and brain is still developing. Not to mention in terms of experience. There are very few 15/16 year olds I see getting any game time at the other teams, so who is developing more? If Hearts were to play all their U17z at that level, they'd be a match for any team in the country. There would be 7 outfield players who play/have played for Scotland. But what would they learn? Because they'd be winning does that mean they've more of a competitive edge or have improved? Not to me. As regards the PY system, it is probably fine up to 17 years old, i.e. If you are playing your best 15/16/17 year old against older players in the u20z, as hearts are doing, then they are being challenged. After that the boys should be out playing on loan or pushing for the first team. Ultimately though the manager has to want to play youngsters and give them a chance. And that is the big problem in Scotland. Two things have changed that has curbed development of Scottish players in general. They've made the spl competitive, so that teams at the top fighting for the league/Europe, teams in the middle fighting for top 6, teams at the bottom fighting against relegation. No one wants to put the youngsters in. Secondly, the number of foreign players playing. Finally, the fans are so impatient. What kid would want to make a debut at tynecastle, before being written off after first bad touch. You can see what Hearts are trying to do, so cut the boys, coaches etc some slack. PS A 2-2 draw yesterday vs a very experienced utd team wasn't a bad result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allymac35 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 You state you have not been to an u20s game for years,maybe you should get along and watch them before you start slating a very young team,15,16,17,18 year olds in the squad,results are always tight against teams who are playing overage players on a regular basis. I think what people need to see past is the result and start to focus on the players a bit more. There will be players who showed a lot of promise 2/3 years ago who are struggling just now but as the saying goes form is temporary. Youn gplayers will have spells of inconsistency, coupled with great performances and it is about managing the player and working to ensure the consistency comes to the fore. The young players Hearts have coming through are very good, in all fairness, the best in the country at their age and they are now being exposed to boys who are 3,4,5 years older than them, to seasoned pro's and they will have to learn to deal with that, and they will, given time, support and good coaching. This desire for instant 1st team is nonsense but when these players start to drip feed into the 1st team in the next 2-3 years all of a sudden everyone will be praising the Academy. The guys in the background work very very hard. They have great sports scientists who work with the kids, they have analysts who watch all the games, they have ex pro's working with the kids so they know what is needed but to implement a plan like this doesnt take a year, it takes 3/4 years before you start to see some results. This project will be very similar to the one Levein did at Dundee Utd and everyone was raving about the players they were bringing through, a lot of whom played International football and are still playing in the premier league or Championship level down South, that is what the club want to attain. This suggestion to do away with the academy and bring in players at 19/20....and then what, try to teach them how to play football, how to be tactically aware, how to adapt to the way the 1st team play....a very blinkered view with no substance to support the suggestion. If the club can bring through 1 or 2 players every year into the 1st team then that age group ahs been a success becasue it has saved the club money, shown there is a pathway and ultimately if the club can sell on it then makes the club sustainable. It's a big project with big hopes and it needs the support of the fans as well. If you havent seen the youth teams, drag yourself out of bed on a Saturday or Sunday morning and go along to Riccarton and watch them, this may well change your thinking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadora Van Basten Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 When I read some of the posts in this thread I lose the will to live. I wonder if in four years time all our so called promising players will be playing for Hibs under 20s and we will be still playing a bunch of 15 year olds against 20 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 According to Hearts website Chris Hamilton (aged 15) was captain yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Team was Mason Hamilton Vladislav Jones Reid Morrison Paton Cochrane Leonard Irving Zanatta Zanatta subbed at half time suggesting could be in squad for Dundee. Gillan replaced him. Other sub on 90 minutes Ritchie for Leonard. Subs not used were Gajda and Sandison. Just a day late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry-Jam Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Im full of Xmas spirit,im being positive about our VERY YOUNG u20s squad and dont agree with the negative comments,sorry if you see that as me not being in the Xmas spirit so BAH HUMBUG to you. So, did you go to the game or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allymac35 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 6 under 17's in that squad, well 8 if you include Andy Irving and Aaron Reid who are full time. And you have the daily record going mental becasue Billy Gilmour got a game for the 20's...he is a year behind these boys...nice to see the boys being pushed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattythejambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 6 under 17's in that squad, well 8 if you include Andy Irving and Aaron Reid who are full time. And you have the daily record going mental becasue Billy Gilmour got a game for the 20's...he is a year behind these boys...nice to see the boys being pushed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattythejambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 agreed it's great to see us pushing / testing the young boys and that was a strong Dundee Utd team, 6 of them have featured in there first team. Although our boys were possibly not as strong some of there interplay was great to watch they seem to know each other game inside out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattythejambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 6 under 17's in that squad, well 8 if you include Andy Irving and Aaron Reid who are full time. And you have the daily record going mental becasue Billy Gilmour got a game for the 20's...he is a year behind these boys...nice to see the boys being pushed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 agreed it's great to see us pushing / testing the young boys and that was a strong Dundee Utd team, 6 of them have featured in there first team. Although our boys were possibly not as strong some of there interplay was great to watch they seem to know each other game inside out. Chris Hamilton is 16 in July So if he stays at Hearts he has a chance of getting near the first team squad. With Ian Cathro having experience of pushing players on at 16 you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattythejambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Hopefully I was at the game yesterday and he was excellent for one so young, I personally thought Irvine, Cochrane and Leonard linked well going forward in the second half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Hopefully I was at the game yesterday and he was excellent for one so young, I personally thought Irvine, Cochrane and Leonard linked well going forward in the second half.It's also encouraging that Ian Cathro has previously encouraged youngsters at Dundee United. Suspect he has no fear of players coming into first team at 16 like John Souttar did at United. Hoping that is a big encouragement to this group including (referencing the other thread) wanting to stay at Hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 So, did you go to the game or not? I will keep you guessing,"mibbes aye, mibbes naw" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funtime Jambo Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 It's also encouraging that Ian Cathro has previously encouraged youngsters at Dundee United. Suspect he has no fear of players coming into first team at 16 like John Souttar did at United. Hoping that is a big encouragement to this group including (referencing the other thread) wanting to stay at Hearts. Hopefully Hearts go all out to keep these talented 15 and 16 year olds at our club!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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