Trams?

[Dawnrazor]

We moved to England 8 years ago and have only seen the progress of the Tram system on the TV, there seems to be some hostility on here towards them, excuse my ignorance but what are the draw backs?

[CJGJ]

Anything that is supposedly 'Green' says it all

 

In Edinburgh's case it starts with lies from enviromentalists which are seized upon by an anti car council who couldn't cost a weekly supermarket trip

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

We moved to England 8 years ago and have only seen the progress of the Tram system on the TV, there seems to be some hostility on here towards them, excuse my ignorance but what are the draw backs?

Can't look in through people's windows like you could from top deck of bus.

[Francis Albert]

Cost, cost and cost, for a very limited service that doesn't do much more than replicate the Airport Express bus service.

 

Having said that a more extensive system could be a huge success in a city like Edinburgh with lots of commuters and tourists. Visitors and tourists can never make sense of local buses anywhere.

[Glottis]

Over a billion for 1 tramline that goes three quarters of the distance that the #22 went.

 

It's nice, but it's not worth the money.

[FWJ]

Over a billion? Are we factoring in the cost of interest payments in everything now, or just trams?

[Glottis]

After a quick google it appears the commonly used ?1bn figure does include interest payments.

?770m isn't value for money either mind.

[Section Q]

Can't get a seat for incoming/outgoing tourists to and from the airport. Deafening noise everytime a door closes.

A billion quid debt that won't be paid off in my lifetime.

Unnecessary and expensive......

[Bowmans_Boot]

Cost, cost and cost, for a very limited service that doesn't do much more than replicate the Airport Express bus service.

 

Having said that a more extensive system could be a huge success in a city like Edinburgh with lots of commuters and tourists. Visitors and tourists can never make sense of local buses anywhere.

 

Why not? The bus service is superb and a few, basic improvements could make it a lot easier for tourists eg purchase tickets at the bus stop, well thats about it!!  Apart from that, it is a great service.

 

As you rightly say, the trams do not offer anything that the Airport Express service doesnt still offer. A complete, total waste of money and one which cost many local businesses their livelihood, which is unforgivable. 

[FWJ]

Can't get a seat for incoming/outgoing tourists to and from the airport. Deafening noise everytime a door closes.

A billion quid debt that won't be paid off in my lifetime.

Unnecessary and expensive......

Are the trams that busy? I thought they were running empty all the time. And if they are packed with tourists going to the airport then how many extra buses are they taking off Corstorphine and St John's Rd? (Like St John's Rd needs more buses).

 

The 'billion quid debt' - how much of that was from the Scottish Government?

[Shanks said no]

Why not? The bus service is superb and a few, basic improvements could make it a lot easier for tourists eg purchase tickets at the bus stop, well thats about it!!  Apart from that, it is a great service.

 

As you rightly say, the trams do not offer anything that the Airport Express service doesnt still offer. A complete, total waste of money and one which cost many local businesses their livelihood, which is unforgivable. 

The Airport Express is quicker and serves more of the hotels tourists use, also gets you to the Waverley. 20mph speed limit will assist the tram though.

[Francis Albert]

Why not? The bus service is superb and a few, basic improvements could make it a lot easier for tourists eg purchase tickets at the bus stop, well thats about it!!  Apart from that, it is a great service.

 

As you rightly say, the trams do not offer anything that the Airport Express service doesnt still offer. A complete, total waste of money and one which cost many local businesses their livelihood, which is unforgivable.

Just speaking from my experience. In New York and Paris and London the bus maps are incomprehensible, the tram/metro/underground is child's play.

 

The same applies to cities whose tourist areas are more like Edinburgh's size - Copenhagen, Bordeaux, St Petersburg.

 

Maybe a simplified bus map showing only the routes linking key tourist sites and hotels would help. Maybe it exists - I've not seen it.

[FWJ]

The tram was never meant to be the 'fast' way to the airport - when it was being designed it was thought that 'EARL' (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) would fulfil that role.This was the scheme to put all the main lines to and from the North and West through the airport thus giving a very frequent service into Haymarket/Waverley as well as direct services to Glasgow/Stirling/Fife/Perth/Dundee//Aberdeen. It was cancelled by the (SNP) government. The western part of the tram was and will built to service Edinburgh Park, South Gyle and the huge new developments on the table for the Ingleston area.

Leith Walk will soon be 'full' - a high quality & and high capacity transport link to the waterfront will be needed.

 

The population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 150,000 in the next 25 years. Some major routes are congested with buses (the really good and popular buses that are getting even more popular and busy in the face of some confident predictions on here). If the city is to grow and prosper people need to get about easy and comfortably. Trams offer something buses don't, that's why tram lines are being installed around the world.

[Cade]

Original plan: Three line network covering most of the city. Estimated cost ?350million.

Actual product: Half of one of the three lines, four years late. Total cost ?1.2billion.

[The Internet]

I'm totally biased against them due to the utter shambles that was commuting through the town while the lines were being built. They're shite imo.

[indianajones]

I've heard parts of the tracks are sinking and need massive amounts of worm done to them already.

 

I've used the tram once. Only because I was at the airport. Huge waste of money imo.

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[FWJ]

Original plan: Three line network covering most of the city. Estimated cost ?350million.

Actual product: Half of one of the three lines, four years late. Total cost ?1.2billion.

No. The third line was going to be paid for by a congestion charge that was voted out by Edinburgh voters.

 

And I see the cost has risen from ?1 billion to ?1.2 billion in the space of an evening.

[FWJ]

I've heard parts of the tracks are sinking and need massive amounts of worm done to them already.

I've used the tram once. Only because I was at the airport. Huge waste of money imo.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

I've heard all sorts of stuff about the trams.

[Shanks said no]

I've heard parts of the tracks are sinking and need massive amounts of worm done to them already.

 

I've used the tram once. Only because I was at the airport. Huge waste of money imo.

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

There was a section of track at the pedestrian crossing by Ryan's Bar at Shandwick Place about 4 months ago that looked rather dodgy

[Maroon Sailor]

Complete waste of time and money

[Col1874]

I like the tram if I'm on the 5pm finish shift at work (Edinburgh Park) as it beats traffic by a mile.

 

That aside though, they could quite easily have just made an express hybrid bus route on the tramline.

 

Overall verdict: waste of money but it helps me get home quicker on the odd occasion.

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

The tram line is great. Gets me to Haymarket in 10 mins.

[Stephane Grappelli]

I like the trams. They are great for the airport and a relatively quick and hassle free way of getting about. The staff are very friendly and helpful too in my experience.

 

It would be good if it covered more of our fine city though. Hopefully it will be extended at some point in the future.

 

There are also seem to be few, if any, space cadets on the tram compared with certain bus routes. Even if there is one on your tram it's easier to get away from them.

[I P Knightley]

Just speaking from my experience. In New York and Paris and London the bus maps are incomprehensible, the tram/metro/underground is child's play.

 

The same applies to cities whose tourist areas are more like Edinburgh's size - Copenhagen, Bordeaux, St Petersburg.

 

Maybe a simplified bus map showing only the routes linking key tourist sites and hotels would help. Maybe it exists - I've not seen it.

I'm an infrequent visitor to Edinburgh these days and usually take a hire car. However, when I was up last week, I downloaded the LRT app for planning journeys around on the bus (having forgotten most routes in the years since living at home).

 

The app was/is really good. They should do more to promote it. You don't need a map - just type in where you want to go and the options all pop up.

[XB52]

it's fair to say that the trams certainly divide opinion now they are running, whereas before they were almost universally hated due to the expense and disruption. I think we will inevitably see more trams lines being built as they have been a success as far as passenger numbers go.   

[AlimOzturk]

I think the fact we could rid ourselves of the trams tomorrow and still be able to get around no problem at all using our outstanding bus service is what annoys me.

 

At some point a group of people high up in the Edinburgh council and the Scottish parliment thought this was a good idea. People we elect to make these decisions and spend our hard earned tax money. The trams are nice but where they ever really necessary?

 

For the money you could have repaired every single road Edinburgh and built improvments for the bus service still have plenty left over.

 

Worrying

[leginten]

For the money you could have repaired every single road Edinburgh and built improvments for the bus service still have plenty left over.

Worrying

It would possibly take even more than that to bring our appalling roads and crumbling pavements back to something like the standard you would expect in a capital city, or in fact in any normal city, but your point is a good one. The people charged with looking after one of Europe's most beautiful cities have failed the citizens of Edinburgh dismally.

 

Meanwhile we have half a tram line whose principal function appears to be to slow up the buses in and around the city centre. Laughable.

[Bowmans_Boot]

it's fair to say that the trams certainly divide opinion now they are running, whereas before they were almost universally hated due to the expense and disruption. I think we will inevitably see more trams lines being built as they have been a success as far as passenger numbers go.   

 

Have they? Looking at it from a simple financial viewpoint, have they given value for money spent? Looking at it from a local business owners viewpoint, have they generated more income? Has this made up for the losses caused previously as a direct result of the work? And looking at it from a bus users viewpoint they have been a disaster. Buses have to wait ages to even get on to Princes St as a result of a tram coming. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

The tram line is great. Gets me to Haymarket in 10 mins.

 

Where from? Shandwick Place?

[Phil Dunphy]

The trams are great if you're going from the Airport side of Haymarket, nice and speedy.

 

Soon as you hit the town though, meh.

[mutley]

The trams are great if you're going from the Airport side of Haymarket, nice and speedy.

 

Soon as you hit the town though, meh.

They could have connected the stretch between haymarket and the old guided bus section and let buses run on that.

30mph all the way to the gyle with no other traffic

[Ryan Jarman]

Where from? Shandwick Place?

Takes me 10 mins from Saughton to Haymarket for work. 15 min commute from door to door.

[XB52]

Have they? Looking at it from a simple financial viewpoint, have they given value for money spent? Looking at it from a local business owners viewpoint, have they generated more income? Has this made up for the losses caused previously as a direct result of the work? And looking at it from a bus users viewpoint they have been a disaster. Buses have to wait ages to even get on to Princes St as a result of a tram coming.

 

value for money? No way have they been. Local businesses are a lot happier now the trams are running but the years of disruption caused by the delays will take a long time to recover from. Going forward though I do think we will see more tram lines, or at least an extension to the existing one to Leith

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

Takes me 10 mins from Saughton to Haymarket for work. 15 min commute from door to door.

[luckyBatistuta]

I think the fact we could rid ourselves of the trams tomorrow and still be able to get around no problem at all using our outstanding bus service is what annoys me.

At some point a group of people high up in the Edinburgh council and the Scottish parliment thought this was a good idea. People we elect to make these decisions and spend our hard earned tax money. The trams are nice but where they ever really necessary?

For the money you could have repaired every single road Edinburgh and built improvments for the bus service still have plenty left over.

Worrying

I've got a mate on the buses, who has told me that they've put extra money into the airport bus, as there numbers continue to grow since the tram started. How can that be, surely everybody would want to get the shiny, fabby new tram to the airport. Meanwhile, I continue to watch the tram go past me at night, on a regular basis, with about 10-12 people on it, while I'm stuck for what seems like an eternity at the traffic lights, because of the waste of money, that tings, as it crawls past. I also spoke to one of the heads of the company installing the tram system, who told me that, 'the council could have replaced their whole fleet of buses, with new environmentally friendly buses, for cheaper...but don't quote me on that lol'

As you say...were they ever really necessary.

[Dunks]

I'm a regular user of the trams. I'm a very rare user of buses.

 

Go figure.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Never been on it,it doesn't go anywhere near my house or work

[pablo]

5 and a half million journeys per year. It's going to be extended to other parts of the City during the next 15 years. Work will begin when the public enquiry concludes and the City Deal investment is signed off.

[Stuart Lyon]

These figures are for 2014 when 4.92 million used the tram in it first year of operation and 3 million extra passengers were carried by bus.

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/tram-subsidy-bill-cut-as-numbers-exceed-forecast-1-3858498

 

How were these 7.92 million journeys made prior to this massive switch to public transport?

 

I believe the usage figures for 2015 were even higher but I can't find that information online.

 

It is not just buses that are delayed by the vanity trams. Other road users, including those law abiding cyclists who don't ignore traffic signals, are also affected as are pedestrians. They all suffer because the vanity tram gets preference at the many lights between York Place and Haymarket.

 

Then there is the inflexibility of the trams when faced with incidents along the route.

 

A waste of money.

[JamboX2]

The tram was never meant to be the 'fast' way to the airport - when it was being designed it was thought that 'EARL' (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) would fulfil that role.This was the scheme to put all the main lines to and from the North and West through the airport thus giving a very frequent service into Haymarket/Waverley as well as direct services to Glasgow/Stirling/Fife/Perth/Dundee//Aberdeen. It was cancelled by the (SNP) government. The western part of the tram was and will built to service Edinburgh Park, South Gyle and the huge new developments on the table for the Ingleston area.

Leith Walk will soon be 'full' - a high quality & and high capacity transport link to the waterfront will be needed.

 

The population of Edinburgh is forecast to grow by 150,000 in the next 25 years. Some major routes are congested with buses (the really good and popular buses that are getting even more popular and busy in the face of some confident predictions on here). If the city is to grow and prosper people need to get about easy and comfortably. Trams offer something buses don't, that's why tram lines are being installed around the world.

This is where I am with it. In fact I think a condition of private investment into the redevelopment of the St.James centre is tram expansion to Leith.

 

The issue came down to a mixture of things, but the fact the Government, who had expertise in major projects of this kind effectively washed it's hands of this project and left the council to flounder on and make a pigs ear of the contracting process, certainly didn't help in the slightest.

 

Fact is, in a few years time I reckon we'll see moves to expand the network and to reinstate both EARL and GARL projects. Scotland needs a much more integrated and 21st century transport network. Its pretty outdated compared with other nations our size.

[Chester™]

This is where I am with it. In fact I think a condition of private investment into the redevelopment of the St.James centre is tram expansion to Leith.

 

 

 

It isnt (according to someone I know in the Council). It was mooted as a suggestion to help extend it but ultimately it was up to those redeveloping the Centre.

[JamboX2]

It isnt (according to someone I know in the Council). It was mooted as a suggestion to help extend it but ultimately it was up to those redeveloping the Centre.

Cheers! Never realised this had been finalised.

[Chester™]

Cheers! Never realised this had been finalised.

 

As I say, that was from someone at the Council. I've no reason to disbelieve it but you can never tell with them tbh!

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 and a half million journeys per year. It's going to be extended to other parts of the City during the next 15 years. Work will begin when the public enquiry concludes and the City Deal investment is signed off.

 

Yes the Clownsillors got really excited about the numbers using the white elephant but have, as far as I'm aware, never mentioned how much revenue it's taking. Is it even paying for it's basic running costs?  How many of the 5 million people were using their bus pass? How many were using day savers or how many were pensioners using their free passes?  How much cash did it take?

[frankblack]

You're one of the tiny minority of people who live and work on the tram route?

 

You just like trams?

 

I've never been on one because I've never been going from and to anywhere on the route.

 

Likewise - I have never been on one because their route is nowhere near my home or work, and refuse to use them because they are a white elephant and vanity project from our ****wit councilors.

[Stephane Grappelli]

I've got a mate on the buses, who has told me that they've put extra money into the airport bus, as there numbers continue to grow since the tram started. How can that be, surely everybody would want to get the shiny, fabby new tram to the airport. Meanwhile, I continue to watch the tram go past me at night, on a regular basis, with about 10-12 people on it, while I'm stuck for what seems like an eternity at the traffic lights, because of the waste of money, that tings, as it crawls past. I also spoke to one of the heads of the company installing the tram system, who told me that, 'the council could have replaced their whole fleet of buses, with new environmentally friendly buses, for cheaper...but don't quote me on that lol'

As you say...were they ever really necessary.

Some good inside info there.

[Dunks]

You're one of the tiny minority of people who live and work on the tram route?

 

You just like trams?

 

I've never been on one because I've never been going from and to anywhere on the route.

 

I don't live in Edinburgh, but do work there from time to time. Usually stay centre of town with offices in the centre and as well as two other locations on the tram route. Also have an office in Leith, so have to bus it to there. 

[FWJ]

Some good inside info there.

But we were told on here that the Airport buses would be forced to stop so that people would have to use the trams. Now we are hearing that more money is being spent on these buses and that frequency and passenger numbers are increasing.

 

Also earlier someone was complaining that you 'can't get a seat' on them and others say there's only a handful of people.

 

The cost varies from ?770m to ?1b to ?1.2b to ?1.6b.

 

All a bit confusing.

[Chester™]

But we were told on here that the Airport buses would be forced to stop so that people would have to use the trams. Now we are hearing that more money is being spent on these buses and that frequency and passenger numbers are increasing.

 

Also earlier someone was complaining that you 'can't get a seat' on them and others say there's only a handful of people.

 

The cost varies from ?770m to ?1b to ?1.2b to ?1.6b.

 

All a bit confusing.

 

The cost is ?776m plus ?200m in interest to cover the shortfall for the Council (plus any further costs incurred).

 

Do you have the figures to hand, that were asked above, regarding how much money the Trams have made (not passenger numbers)? I thought you'd know.

[FWJ]

The cost is ?776m plus ?200m in interest to cover the shortfall for the Council (plus any further costs incurred).

 

Do you have the figures to hand, that were asked above, regarding how much money the Trams have made (not passenger numbers)? I thought you'd know.

Sure. A very quick and easy search found this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-32925007

 

As predicted a loss was made in the first year, though higher than predicted numbers means that the loss was less than forecast and should move out of the red in less than the 3 years.

 

Interesting to note there that the buses are thriving. Kind of flies in the face of what many were saying.