Why are we getting Trams?

[H2]

Does anybody know what the benefits to Edinburgh and Scotland (as much of the money is central funding) are for the trams. I'm yet to meet anyone who has any idea what the benefits are.

 

Higher running costs than buses;

Less flexible than buses;

create more congestion than buses;

Fewer stopping points than buses;

Causes much more road works than buses;

Construction phase creates 10 years of degeneration in the city.

Eyesore of tram cables in the city centre. (if you want a photo of Edinburgh Castle from Princes Street without tram lines and obstructing supports you better get on with it)!

 

Is the business case demonstrating best value publicly available?

[jamboinglasgow]

as a proud supporter of the tram route all I will say is 'Mon the trams'

[Le Chat]

Why ?

 

So the city councillours can give themselves a big bold pat on the back and act smug.

[Flux]

The cooncil went on a few jollies got bladdered and bought a tram network...

[Boris]

Surely we are unable to factually state what the benefits or downside of the trams will actually be until they are actually up and running.

 

I am tentatively in favour of them, but will have to wait and see what the benefits are.

 

What I can say though is that it is a bold move and also a move that is forward thinking in that it is genuinely looking to the long term and not just the usual short term policy decisions that politicians love as the set the agenda to their electoral timetables.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Why ?

 

So the city councillours can give themselves a big bold pat on the back and act smug.

 

It's the only possible reason

 

Leith to the Airport - what a useless route:107years:

[Wattie]

Aye but but but... they look pretty...and stuff.

[H2]

Surely we are unable to factually state what the benefits or downside of the trams will actually be until they are actually up and running.

 

I am tentatively in favour of them, but will have to wait and see what the benefits are.

 

What I can say though is that it is a bold move and also a move that is forward thinking in that it is genuinely looking to the long term and not just the usual short term policy decisions that politicians love as the set the agenda to their electoral timetables.

 

Interesting point of view, but do you think it's ok to spend millions and millions of tax payers money tentatively, without any demonstratable benefit?

[H2]

as a proud supporter of the tram route all I will say is 'Mon the trams'

 

That's a bit like being a Hibs supporter is it not - There is no reason to support!

[Craig_]

Presumably it's so that tourists can get off a plane, be whisked into the city centre, then off to see the Royal Yacht Britannia then back off to the airport thinking what a modern, well-run city Edinburgh is...

[savage]

no benefit at all, the roadworks and congestion they are causing is beyond belief and it will only get worse. we should have built a metro system years and years and years ago

[North Berwick Jambo]

It's the only possible reason

 

Leith to the Airport - what a useless route:107years:

 

Unless they are all getting deported!

[jamboj]

no benefit at all, the roadworks and congestion they are causing is beyond belief and it will only get worse. we should have built a metro system years and years and years ago

 

Yes yes and a very big yes to the metro system idea.

 

The trams are yet another example of Edinburgh trying to pretend its a big city, when in reality it is not. The last best example of this behaviour was the congestion charge thing, which was totally unnecessary and merely an attempt to be more like London. The trams will connect leith to the gyle and RBS which in theory is a grand idea, but the buses do this to good effect now and there is so little to be gained by a (less regular) tram system. If you read their literature too you'll see them blabbing about the benefits to poorer areas of the city 'such as Gorgie'. I live in Gorgie and am male (therefore capable of reading a map) and can as such see that they go nowhere near Gorgie and so will have no benefit whatsoever, only clogging up the West End when I want to get down there.

 

On the metro system, great idea which as you say should have been done years back. I went to Bilbao in Spain last year and saw their (quite new and shiny) metro working and its nothing short of terrific. You can get across the city in a couple of minutes and its nice and clean and comfortable. Bilbao has about 100k people less than Edinburgh and is buzzing these days, partly due to having a decent transport system and not a shower of ****** councilors with their collective heads up a big arse (possibly A Salmond of Charlotte Square).

[davemclaren]

Yes yes and a very big yes to the metro system idea.

 

The trams are yet another example of Edinburgh trying to pretend its a big city, when in reality it is not. The last best example of this behaviour was the congestion charge thing, which was totally unnecessary and merely an attempt to be more like London. The trams will connect leith to the gyle and RBS which in theory is a grand idea, but the buses do this to good effect now and there is so little to be gained by a (less regular) tram system. If you read their literature too you'll see them blabbing about the benefits to poorer areas of the city 'such as Gorgie'. I live in Gorgie and am male (therefore capable of reading a map) and can as such see that they go nowhere near Gorgie and so will have no benefit whatsoever, only clogging up the West End when I want to get down there.

 

On the metro system, great idea which as you say should have been done years back. I went to Bilbao in Spain last year and saw their (quite new and shiny) metro working and its nothing short of terrific. You can get across the city in a couple of minutes and its nice and clean and comfortable. Bilbao has about 100k people less than Edinburgh and is buzzing these days, partly due to having a decent transport system and not a shower of ****** councilors with their collective heads up a big arse (possibly A Salmond of Charlotte Square).

 

A tram every ten minutes is pretty regular...as regular goes.

[david mcgee]

Surely we are unable to factually state what the benefits or downside of the trams will actually be until they are actually up and running.

 

I am tentatively in favour of them, but will have to wait and see what the benefits are.

 

What I can say though is that it is a bold move and also a move that is forward thinking in that it is genuinely looking to the long term and not just the usual short term policy decisions that politicians love as the set the agenda to their electoral timetables.

 

If introducing trams is a bold idea in 2008, how bold was it in 1940?

 

Bring back the horse and cart!

 

Far greener, no CO2, no need for speed humps, neigh brainer and at least the manure comes out of the right end.

[Walter Payton]

A tram every ten minutes is pretty regular...as regular goes.

 

But not as regular as the current 22 Bus Service which does the same route and you don't have to wait any more than 5 minutes for at the busiest times.

[Peebo]

But not as regular as the current 22 Bus Service which does the same route and you don't have to wait any more than 5 minutes for at the busiest times.

 

Unless you are waiting for it on Leith Walk...as one negotiates it way through the roadworks.

[davemclaren]

But not as regular as the current 22 Bus Service which does the same route and you don't have to wait any more than 5 minutes for at the busiest times.

 

It will be quicker and have much more capacity, though the stops will be further apart.

 

As I've said before, what city that has recently re-introduced them, doesn't want to keep them?

[Tams bird]

Cos we voted against congesstion charges or something. ONE tram route. Does any other cith only have 1 line ? Supposed to have one of the best bus services so what a waste of money..

[Le Chat]

Cos we voted against congesstion charges or something. ONE tram route. Does any other cith only have 1 line ? Supposed to have one of the best bus services so what a waste of money..

 

I think Dublin only has one tram route.

 

I could be wrong though as I wasn't sober for very long when I was there

[Craig_]

On the metro system, great idea which as you say should have been done years back. I went to Bilbao in Spain last year and saw their (quite new and shiny) metro working and its nothing short of terrific. You can get across the city in a couple of minutes and its nice and clean and comfortable. Bilbao has about 100k people less than Edinburgh and is buzzing these days, partly due to having a decent transport system and not a shower of ****** councilors with their collective heads up a big arse (possibly A Salmond of Charlotte Square).

 

To be fair, the SNP were trying to scrap it. Think you should direct your ire at the Lab-Lib 'coalition'.

[Big D]

Bilbao has about 100k people less than Edinburgh and is buzzing these days, partly due to having a decent transport system and not a shower of ****** councilors with their collective heads up a big arse (possibly A Salmond of Charlotte Square).

 

Never let the facts get in the way of a misplaced snide against a politician. The SNP Government in Scotland voted to scrap the proposed tram system, but the bill was pushed through by the Unionist parties who knew that the cost would spiral and potentially derail the Scots' Government budget proposals for years to come: allowing them to smugly claim that the figures "don't add up" and diverting funds from much needed initiatives throughour Scotland. The present Edinburgh Council and the present Scots' Governement are not the ones to be given the plaudits, (if merited) or in my opinion the well deserved abuse for forcing this scheme on the city.

[jamboinglasgow]

That's a bit like being a Hibs supporter is it not - There is no reason to support!

 

I never said I dont have my reasons. So here they are.

 

Edinburgh needs a intergrated transport system that moves people quickly and effectivly. Living in Glasgow which has many rail routes a subway and bus routes I notice this is a great system for getting around. Edinburgh only has buses. Now Edinburgh keeps developing in many places around the city but the transport is the same since the 1950's. Problem is that though we have a decent bus system, most people who block up the roads at rush hour dont want to go by bus. A new way to attract them out of cars is needed.

 

An a tram system is key part to this intergrated system. By having the 1st route go right through the heart of the city (or spine as they are calling it) you have a major transportation route that can carry the bulk of people to the major areas of growth (the airport, Edinburgh Park, Leith Docks, city centre) and it helps move many people. If the second loop is put in (and it looks very likely) this will add the north of Edinburgh into the network and brings the new waterfront area into the system.

 

The important issue for this is for the rest of the city to be linked into the network and thats why I think the south suburbin line should be reopened as that will be the tram route for the south (and to all those who go on about well the south suburbin line will only cost a small fraction of the tram route that is because the infrastructure is already in place and in the rest of the city it isn't so it will cost money to bring anything in.)

 

Buses can be used to link of the routes so that they can effectivly provide coverage to the whole of Edinburgh and of course they will have other services running, but with an effective ticketing service then it can work that you can hop on a bus then catch the tram to another place on the same ticket.

[Boris]

Interesting point of view, but do you think it's ok to spend millions and millions of tax payers money tentatively, without any demonstratable benefit?

 

Well, they wouldd say that would benefit the city - environmentally, reduce congestion etc which I think is fair enough.

 

The route to the North of the city will hopefully help in its regeneration too.

 

For every pro argument there will be a counter, but until we actually build it we will not know. I am generally happy to believe the pro camp at the moment.

 

As someone stated earlier, we should have built a metro years ago. Surely the arguments about whether we should or shouldn;t would be the same than as they are now for the trams?

 

i also like the idea of lining out to the Airport. A tram or rail link is essential imho.

[ecjambo]

If they were wanting to connect the Airport with the City Centre, which im guessing was one of the reasons for it they would have been better off with a rail link. Might have cost more in terms of money to set it out, build etc. But it would not have been affecting the shops, businesses that are on the streets being closed off because of the tram work.

 

Only reason I can see for trams is that they work well in other countries so they must of thought it would work well in Edinburgh.

[Walter Payton]

Well, they wouldd say that would benefit the city - environmentally, reduce congestion etc which I think is fair enough.

 

The route to the North of the city will hopefully help in its regeneration too.

 

For every pro argument there will be a counter, but until we actually build it we will not know. I am generally happy to believe the pro camp at the moment.

 

As someone stated earlier, we should have built a metro years ago. Surely the arguments about whether we should or shouldn;t would be the same than as they are now for the trams?

 

i also like the idea of lining out to the Airport. A tram or rail link is essential imho.

 

As far as I was aware though Boris, the trams won't even go all the way out to the airport- IIRC they ran out of cash, and the terminus is halfway in between the gyle and the airport.

[Gershwin]

Fewer stopping points than buses;

 

I think that's the only good thing about trams over buses. I hate the number of times buses stop.

[jamboinglasgow]

As far as I was aware though Boris, the trams won't even go all the way out to the airport- IIRC they ran out of cash, and the terminus is halfway in between the gyle and the airport.

 

thats the depot, the trams do go all the way to the airport.

[I P Knightley]

Surely we are unable to factually state what the benefits or downside of the trams will actually be until they are actually up and running.

 

I am tentatively in favour of them, but will have to wait and see what the benefits are.

 

What I can say though is that it is a bold move and also a move that is forward thinking in that it is genuinely looking to the long term and not just the usual short term policy decisions that politicians love as the set the agenda to their electoral timetables.

 

I'd be horrified if I thought that any local authority was spending this amount of money (and causing the associated disruption) without a clear forecast of the benefits to be expected from the venture.

 

Sure, the exact scale of benefits can't be accurately predicted but the nature of them has to have been brought into the planning process.

 

Once the project has been given the go-ahead, the responsibility of the council is then to communicate those anticipated benefit; if only to stop threads like this appearing and draining the national economy of some very valuable resources.

 

The problem, as I see it, is twofold. The council is run by councillors, by and large an underclass of incompetents & illiterates who can't get proper jobs. Secondly, the activities of councillors are governed by 'Public Financial Management' specialists (not proper accountants) whose focus is to ensure that money gets spent; not to deliver value and accountability.

 

 

 

I like your "bold move' quote. Very Sir Humphrey!

[Era Macaroons]

Surely we are unable to factually state what the benefits or downside of the trams will actually be until they are actually up and running.

 

I am tentatively in favour of them, but will have to wait and see what the benefits are.

 

What I can say though is that it is a bold move and also a move that is forward thinking in that it is genuinely looking to the long term and not just the usual short term policy decisions that politicians love as the set the agenda to their electoral timetables.

 

Surley the benefits should be well documented before spending umpteen millions and crippling the city for years!!

 

I think the number of people this will befefit will be a small minority...and tourists and is self indulgence on the clowncils part. Folk are so married to their cars nothing would tempt them out of them where they have to actually mingle with...the public....oo not me,im above that.

 

being a local trader in Leith, this has caused untold havoc to local business, takings have been savaged....some have folded already...more will , by the time its finished.

 

compensation of 3k - 4K pounds has been given by barley scratches the surface

 

another worrying aspect for local traders is the route serves the gyle and ocean terminal ...no need for local shops then! lets all pack up as the shopping mall takes over.

[pablo]

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of the tram line for a moment, I would hope a significant budget of monies and resources has been put in place to concentrate on the integration of all the various transport systems.

 

It shouldn't be an impossible task to sync train, bus and tram timetables.

 

It'll take a bit more though and effort than building fancy big bus shelters and calling them " Interchange Points " though.

[Era Macaroons]

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of the tram line for a moment, I would hope a significant budget of monies and resources has been put in place to concentrate on the integration of all the various transport systems.

 

It shouldn't be an impossible task to sync train, bus and tram timetables.

It'll take a bit more though and effort than building fancy big bus shelters and calling them " Interchange Points " though.

 

it wont happen.

 

also.... I thought it was a great idea to install all the ticket machines at bus stops???? who the f uses them?

 

i use the bus twice a day and never seen anyone buy their bus ticket before a bus comes along

 

....they are probably for tourists (like every other inititive) but you wouldnt be a self respecting tourist without standing in front of the bus driver looking helpless holding a 10 pound note on a westbound 26 at haymarket and asking 'how much?.....ehh....ehhhh.....Commonwealth Sweeming Pool'.

 

and while im at ...cant wait for the Italian schoolkids to arrive and clog up Princes street/every bus going.

[Guildford_Jambo]

I think Dublin only has one tram route.

 

I could be wrong though as I wasn't sober for very long when I was there

 

They have 2 in dublin

[N User]

Guys, guys, guys - they look nice.

 

They'll take you to your work in 2011, sorry 2012, wait 2013..

[Rick Grimes]

it put Ogdenville, North Haverbrook & Brockway on the map! imagine what it could for Edinburgh.

[LizzyHearts2]

no benefit at all, the roadworks and congestion they are causing is beyond belief and it will only get worse. we should have built a metro system years and years and years ago

 

I agree. I live in the middle of said tram works going on at Haymarket. The mess they are making of our beautiful city! What the tourists must think!! I for one, do not see any benefits, and even though businesses that are affected are being compensated(and this so called compensation is no guarantee that said businesses will survive), this is no saving grace and the council and all those involved in making diabolical decision should hang their heads in shame!

 

 

The so called powers that be will not be happy until they have driven us out of this city!

[Max Power]

it put Ogdenville, North Haverbrook & Brockway on the map! imagine what it could for Edinburgh.

 

 

"Won't the track bend? not on your life my hindu friend"

[Boris]

I agree. I live in the middle of said tram works going on at Haymarket. The mess they are making of our beautiful city! What the tourists must think!! I for one, do not see any benefits, and even though businesses that are affected are being compensated(and this so called compensation is no guarantee that said businesses will survive), this is no saving grace and the council and all those involved in making diabolical decision should hang their heads in shame!

 

 

The so called powers that be will not be happy until they have driven us out of this city!

 

Quite a short termist perspective, no?

 

The roads were built 100+ years ago but they are somehow supposed to cope with people driving 4X4's through the town, not to mention the increased amounts of traffic on the roads. To alleviate the traffic problem someting has to be done. Trams is what has been decided on, but regardless of the solution osme work would have to be done. A year or two of work for future benefit? No brainer imho.

[H2]

Quite a short termist perspective, no?

 

The roads were built 100+ years ago but they are somehow supposed to cope with people driving 4X4's through the town, not to mention the increased amounts of traffic on the roads. To alleviate the traffic problem someting has to be done. Trams is what has been decided on, but regardless of the solution osme work would have to be done. A year or two of work for future benefit? No brainer imho.

 

What benefit?

Trams will not alleviate any traffic problem, merely add to it.

A year or two fo work - Try 7-10 years of work for a solution that serves very few residents of our beautiful city.

[Boris]

Surley the benefits should be well documented before spending umpteen millions and crippling the city for years!!

 

As I said I am sure that both the pro's and cons have been well documented. Which side is right though will only be proven on completion and a decent run of the trams.

 

I think the number of people this will befefit will be a small minority...and tourists and is self indulgence on the clowncils part. Folk are so married to their cars nothing would tempt them out of them where they have to actually mingle with...the public....oo not me,im above that.

 

But it is the folk who are married to their cars that are the problem...

 

being a local trader in Leith, this has caused untold havoc to local business, takings have been savaged....some have folded already...more will , by the time its finished.

 

compensation of 3k - 4K pounds has been given by barley scratches the surface

 

another worrying aspect for local traders is the route serves the gyle and ocean terminal ...no need for local shops then! lets all pack up as the shopping mall takes over.

 

Regardless of trams, the malls you mention have been taking trade from local traders for years already. The 22 already exists. Not sure how the trams will really affect that.

[portobellojambo1]

A complete and utter waste of fecking money, money that is spiralling cost wise on a daily basis, while the city sits in gridlock and getting across the city is now taking 2.5 hours instead of 1.25 hours.

 

Progress, my fecking ersehole.

[Boris]

What benefit?

Trams will not alleviate any traffic problem, merely add to it.

A year or two fo work - Try 7-10 years of work for a solution that serves very few residents of our beautiful city.

 

Get the cars off the road then. Simple.

[BigC]

Regarding the Metro option....

 

Assuming you mean unerground trains, I think it's impossible due to the large amount of hard igneous rock on which our city is built.

 

I'm pretty sure I asked my geography teacher why we didn't built an underground network and that was the answer I got.

[portobellojambo1]

Regarding the Metro option....

 

Assuming you mean unerground trains, I think it's impossible due to the large amount of hard igneous rock on which our city is built.

 

I'm pretty sure I asked my geography teacher why we didn't built an underground network and that was the answer I got.

 

I think it is a combination of what you mention, and other factors related to what lies beneath the surface of Edinburgh, e.g. various seams of differing kinds, combinations of unsuitable rock formations etc. etc. To get to a level at which they could probably build safely would involve building another tram line, pointing at the earth's core, and I am sure they could find a fecking bit road somewhere to dig up during the construction phase.

[H2]

Get the cars off the road then. Simple.

 

Maybe correct getting cars out the town is a simple solution - Trams merely add to the problem - and they are very dangerous for people crossing roads, much more difficult to stop even than a bus.

[Boris]

Maybe correct getting cars out the town is a simple solution - Trams merely add to the problem - and they are very dangerous for people crossing roads, much more difficult to stop even than a bus.

 

Then people should cross at the correct crossing points. Easy!

[davemclaren]

A complete and utter waste of fecking money, money that is spiralling cost wise on a daily basis, while the city sits in gridlock and getting across the city is now taking 2.5 hours instead of 1.25 hours.

 

Progress, my fecking ersehole.

 

You wont be saying that when you are speeding out to the Gyle at a great rate of knots.....

[portobellojambo1]

You wont be saying that when you are speeding out to the Gyle at a great rate of knots.....

 

It will not affect me dave, and would not save me a great deal of time I don't think. They are going nowhere near Portobello, in fact from what I can gather they are effectively replacing the best bus service in Edinburgh (the 22), and will cost somewhere around ?1.5 billion (minimum) for said 1 tram line, which in my eyes is a waste of fecking money which could have been put to much better use, for ALL the citizens of Edinburgh.

[davemclaren]

It will not affect me dave, and would not save me a great deal of time I don't think. They are going nowhere near Portobello, in fact from what I can gather they are effectively replacing the best bus service in Edinburgh (the 22), and will cost somewhere around ?1.5 billion (minimum) for said 1 tram line, which in my eyes is a waste of fecking money which could have been put to much better use, for ALL the citizens of Edinburgh.

 

Not sure of your figures. I like the idea, but as I'm not an Edinburgh council tax payer, I leave the economic justification to others.

[Boris]

It will not affect me dave, and would not save me a great deal of time I don't think. They are going nowhere near Portobello, in fact from what I can gather they are effectively replacing the best bus service in Edinburgh (the 22), and will cost somewhere around ?1.5 billion (minimum) for said 1 tram line, which in my eyes is a waste of fecking money which could have been put to much better use, for ALL the citizens of Edinburgh.

 

However that money wouldn't have been available to Edinburgh if it was not for the trams.

 

According to some newsletter that was put through my door, the Edinburgh council tax payer will not pay apenny towards this either.

 

Seems like an ok deal to me.

 

As for the final cost... I don't know how much it will be, but 1,5 billion would be a trebling of costs?