Martin_T Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The crown jewels of our current squad, and this summer should not be for sale at any cost. I recognise that every player has their price, but we are talking about three young guys, all with 3 to 4 years left on their contracts, all still developing, all yet to reach peak value.We should be building our squad around those players for the next couple of years, then maybe think about selling. I have no problem with Hearts selling a player when they have reached their peak value and we have a younger replacement lined up. In the past we have managed this, Robinson was often critiscised for selling players on the cheap but in selling Cameron (1.7 million at the age of 29), Niemi (2 million at the age of 29) and Naysmith (1.75 million) he got fantastic value for some our star assets. One of the main differences between now and then is that back then we always had a competent head coach to at least attempt to unearth a decent replacement, do we have that now? If Hearts banked 2 million for Berra and went out and bought a Darren Barr or a Mark Reynolds, no one would have any problem with that..but is that even remotely likely under the current regime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I realise that it's just a turn of phrase, but although I'd agree that they're among our most important players, "crown jewels" seems a bit over the top. Under normal circustmances, I'd say that all three are good but not great young players, and if we could get a decent fee for them then we should go for it. Circumstances at the moment, though, are about as far removed from normal as it's possible to get at a football club - I'd be gutted if we sold them purely on the basis that I'd be bricking it as to who we'd be looking to replace them with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I would say that glen,and wallace are also Sadly we don't have people capable of getting the best from them If those lot were at dundee utd under a proper manager I guarentee all would be performing a lot better than they are If I was them I would jump at a chance to escape and go to a club where their careers could really get to the best it could be with nothing other than football mattering in who plays etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I agree we shouldn't sell our best prospects either too cheaply or too early however Martin what you are possibly not taking into account is the players wishes or preferences, most SPL players would see a move to an upper championship club as a step up in level...should Hearts refuse moves when some big & possibly fair bids have been received could potentially result in one very unhappy player if he wanted the move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djh83 Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The crown jewels of our current squad, and this summer should not be for sale at any cost. I recognise that every player has their price, but we are talking about three young guys, all with 3 to 4 years left on their contracts, all still developing, all yet to reach peak value.We should be building our squad around those players for the next couple of years, then maybe think about selling. I have no problem with Hearts selling a player when they have reached their peak value and we have a younger replacement lined up. In the past we have managed this, Robinson was often critiscised for selling players on the cheap but in selling Cameron (1.7 million at the age of 29), Niemi (2 million at the age of 29) and Naysmith (1.75 million) he got fantastic value for some our star assets. One of the main differences between now and then is that back then we always had a competent head coach to at least attempt to unearth a decent replacement, do we have that now? If Hearts banked 2 million for Berra and went out and bought a Darren Barr or a Mark Reynolds, no one would have any problem with that..but is that even remotely likely under the current regime? Absolument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 I realise that it's just a turn of phrase, but although I'd agree that they're among our most important players, "crown jewels" seems a bit over the top. Under normal circustmances, I'd say that all three are good but not great young players, and if we could get a decent fee for them then we should go for it. Circumstances at the moment, though, are about as far removed from normal as it's possible to get at a football club - I'd be gutted if we sold them purely on the basis that I'd be bricking it as to who we'd be looking to replace them with. Who is we? Heart of Midlothian FC? Or Romanov? Do we even know for certain that any money generated will be channelled back into the club? 10 million wouldn't be a good deal for Hearts if the money is all being syphoned off elsewhere, the only impact for the club would be the loss of a key player. As you rightly point out, the scariest part of it all is who we would replace them with...with no manager currently in place, the chances are that we would get more dross from the pyramid of dung. We have gone through a continual cycle over the past two years of replacing good players with pish. Given that a Hearts team without Berra and Driver lost to the now defunct Gretna, 2nd bottom of the SPL would be an achievement if in the worst case scenario Berra, Driver and Jonsson departed the club. The first players to depart this summer should be Kingston, Pinilla, Nade, Beslija and any other non contributing high earner. Until they depart and as I've already alluded to on another thread, a 2 million fee for Berra would be swallowed up by their wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stirlo Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I wouldn't have a problem with us selling Jonsson, Berra or Driver as long as the money is right. People shouldn't forget that we're ?37 million in debt - we simply cannot afford to turn down decent offers for our players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I agree we shouldn't sell our best prospects either too cheaply or too early however Martin what you are possibly not taking into account is the players wishes or preferences, most SPL players would see a move to an upper championship club as a step up in level...should Hearts refuse moves when some big & possibly fair bids have been received could potentially result in one very unhappy player if he wanted the move? Was that the case in the season we came 2nd or won the scottish cup? or even early next season when we had champions league football? Sucess is what matters, all players want to be the best they can be and sadly in the current climate the SPL does not do that long term unless you can secure long term European football and compete I dont for a second think berra, or any of the others would see the championship a good move if we were performing the level we should be We are not Berra clearly thinks and is probably right that a season competing near the upper end of the championship is more likely to secure him international recognition and EPL football than another season at hearts where nothing indicates we can expect much more than this season Vlad is culpable for this and if he got his act together things could really change I do believe that a decent manager could recreate the cup winning season with the current squad, if given freedom to choose the squad and players 100% Its not going to happen sadly, so another season of Ivaskevicius failing to trouble average defenders like grant murray and simon ford beckons:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Berra was nowhere near the level Webster was at in terms of age & experience when he replaced him yet he was able to make the step up......why shouldn't the likes of McGowan or Rapnik or Sives etc get the same opportunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I wouldn't have a problem with us selling Jonsson, Berra or Driver as long as the money is right. People shouldn't forget that we're ?37 million in debt - we simply cannot afford to turn down decent offers for our players. Who got us into this amount of debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyMcI Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The crown jewels of our current squad, and this summer should not be for sale at any cost. I recognise that every player has their price, but we are talking about three young guys, all with 3 to 4 years left on their contracts, all still developing, all yet to reach peak value.We should be building our squad around those players for the next couple of years, then maybe think about selling. I have no problem with Hearts selling a player when they have reached their peak value and we have a younger replacement lined up. In the past we have managed this, Robinson was often critiscised for selling players on the cheap but in selling Cameron (1.7 million at the age of 29), Niemi (2 million at the age of 29) and Naysmith (1.75 million) he got fantastic value for some our star assets. One of the main differences between now and then is that back then we always had a competent head coach to at least attempt to unearth a decent replacement, do we have that now? If Hearts banked 2 million for Berra and went out and bought a Darren Barr or a Mark Reynolds, no one would have any problem with that..but is that even remotely likely under the current regime? I agree with the issue of finding replacements for those we sell, however, not sure I can agree with the bit in bold. I would say Naysmith was not at peak value and most goalkeepers peak in their early thirties. I was gutted when we sold Niemi. I also cannot remember younger replacements being readily available for either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 I agree we shouldn't sell our best prospects either too cheaply or too early however Martin what you are possibly not taking into account is the players wishes or preferences, most SPL players would see a move to an upper championship club as a step up in level...should Hearts refuse moves when some big & possibly fair bids have been received could potentially result in one very unhappy player if he wanted the move? Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when a player has 4 years left on their deal, it is the club who are entirely in control of their destiny. Berra in my opinion could be talked into staying another couple of seasons anyway, if the right conditions were put in place at the club. That means a new manager, selection on merit and the restoration of a proper code of discipline at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Was that the case in the season we came 2nd or won the scottish cup? or even early next season when we had champions league football? Sucess is what matters, all players want to be the best they can be and sadly in the current climate the SPL does not do that long term unless you can secure long term European football and compete I dont for a second think berra, or any of the others would see the championship a good move if we were performing the level we should be We are not Berra clearly thinks and is probably right that a season competing near the upper end of the championship is more likely to secure him international recognition and EPL football than another season at hearts where nothing indicates we can expect much more than this season Vlad is culpable for this and if he got his act together things could really change I do believe that a decent manager could recreate the cup winning season with the current squad, if given freedom to choose the squad and players 100% Its not going to happen sadly, so another season of Ivaskevicius failing to trouble average defenders like grant murray and simon ford beckons:mad: We were in the Champions League but Skacel still preferred the Championship as a better prospect....Aberdeen had a game against Bayern Munich to look forward to but Michael Hart and (the other guy) both decided to go to Preston & Plymouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Mc Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I agree we shouldn't sell our best prospects either too cheaply or too early however Martin what you are possibly not taking into account is the players wishes or preferences, most SPL players would see a move to an upper championship club as a step up in level...should Hearts refuse moves when some big & possibly fair bids have been received could potentially result in one very unhappy player if he wanted the move? One very unhappy player! We probably don't have one very happy player at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Berra was nowhere near the level Webster was at in terms of age & experience when he replaced him yet he was able to make the step up......why shouldn't the likes of McGowan or Rapnik or Sives etc get the same opportunity? McGowan should be in at centre half next season, before karapidis imo who is not suited to our game Rapnik imo needs to prove himself for another season either out on loan at an upper end 1st club - any lower is useless- or in the reserves, he clearly has the talent but hasnt played too many games against players of a calibre he would face week in week out Sives had prospects but has never regained the fitness from the serious injury which ruined his loan at partick and at 21/22 now I would imagine his chances of making it have passed as he would need to prove himself to deserve a chance and he wont get a chance here or anywhere else as no one will risk putting in an injury prone unproven defender, at least not at a level we need Husband should be fast tracked too although not first team just yet Templeton started well at raith but finished dreadfully, hes a very skillfull player but really needs to do something somwhere consistently this year and I dont think he is ready for hearts first team, maybe need to tout him about a bit As for loaning players, it must be SPL/upper 1st, any lower is a complete waste of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stirlo Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Who got us into this amount of debt? Robinson and the current regime. What is important is that we now make some in-roads into clearing the debt and start living within our means. The long term future of this club is the most important thing and I don't think that any of the three players mentioned cannot be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when a player has 4 years left on their deal, it is the club who are entirely in control of their destiny. Berra in my opinion could be talked into staying another couple of seasons anyway, if the right conditions were put in place at the club. That means a new manager, selection on merit and the restoration of a proper code of discipline at the club. I don't disagree Martin although the players personal finances could also be a factor - moving under contract would see him net 10% of any transfer fee (?200K+) - at least the same or more could be expected as a signing on fee and as average wages are higher in the Championship then a reasonable wage increase would probably happen as well - Berra could in one day be ?500K better off as well as playing in (arguably) a better team in a better league in front of bigger crowds..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 We were in the Champions League but Skacel still preferred the Championship as a better prospect....Aberdeen had a game against Bayern Munich to look forward to but Michael Hart and (the other guy) both decided to go to Preston & Plymouth. Michael Hart and Chris Clark had their wages quadrupled. Skacel left because he was unhappy under the conditions Romanov had created at the club and wanted to work again with George Burley. I don't think the 'pull' of playing games against Blackpool and Scunthorpe had anything to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 We were in the Champions League but Skacel still preferred the Championship as a better prospect....Aberdeen had a game against Bayern Munich to look forward to but Michael Hart and (the other guy) both decided to go to Preston & Plymouth. Skacel was unhappy at the time and had the chance to go with a favoured manager to a club who then where still seen as quite big Aberdeen would never consistently compete, the money on offer was also poor These 2 dont prove anything tbh, if players are treated properly and can compete in europe and domestically for honours only a very good offer will sway them Money is also a factor as you need to pay at a level where an OF/Championship move isnt going to treble there wages which is what always has screwed the SPL teams, we could achieve this if we could get the income of regular CL/Uefa cup football upto xmas and even beyond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 I don't disagree Martin although the players personal finances could also be a factor - moving under contract would see him net 10% of any transfer fee (?200K+) - at least the same or more could be expected as a signing on fee and as average wages are higher in the Championship then a reasonable wage increase would probably happen as well - Berra could in one day be ?500K better off as well as playing in (arguably) a better team in a better league in front of bigger crowds..... Maybe Hearts should get rid of Kingston, Nade, Beslija and Pinilla and give even a fraction of the saved wages (if rumours are true that is 40,000 a week in wages amongst that lot), to Berra? Hearts under Romanov have been and continue to be big wage spenders, I would have no problem with our best young talented being rewarded, although obviously some of the figures that the aforementioned players have been earning are obscene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrrrrrrr Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Maybe Hearts should get rid of Kingston, Nade, Beslija and Pinilla and give even a fraction of the saved wages (if rumours are true that is 40,000 a week in wages amongst that lot), to Berra? Hearts under Romanov have been and continue to be big wage spenders, I would have no problem with our best young talented being rewarded, although obviously some of the figures that the aforementioned players have been earning are obscene. There is only one way hearts will thrive and it isn't throwing money at the current squad. Hearts have the prospects we need someone to nurture them properly. Romanov only has to do one thing to maximise his investment, and that is appoint a full coaching squad with full autonomy Then we will 1) maximise the potential of both youth and current squad 2) Play to the strengths of our squad 3) regain at the very least our 3rd place dominance and UEFA cup football 4) Sell ST's and regain the atmosphere If Romanov doesnt do this with immediate affect then he clearly doesnt care about the sucess and more of his EGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Maybe Hearts should get rid of Kingston, Nade, Beslija and Pinilla and give even a fraction of the saved wages (if rumours are true that is 40,000 a week in wages amongst that lot), to Berra? Hearts under Romanov have been and continue to be big wage spenders, I would have no problem with our best young talented being rewarded, although obviously some of the figures that the aforementioned players have been earning are obscene. Iam not disagreeing with you Martin but you can only sell players if you have buyers for them, thus far there have been no reported or speculated bids for any of the 4 players you named but we have had reported (& thus far rejected!) bids for Driver & Berra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makween Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Who is we? Heart of Midlothian FC? Or Romanov? Do we even know for certain that any money generated will be channelled back into the club? 10 million wouldn't be a good deal for Hearts if the money is all being syphoned off elsewhere, the only impact for the club would be the loss of a key player. That's true, but that was part of what I was alluding to when I said the bit about it not being "normal" circumstances. Agree with most of the rest of what you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Robinson and the current regime. What is important is that we now make some in-roads into clearing the debt and start living within our means. The long term future of this club is the most important thing and I don't think that any of the three players mentioned cannot be replaced. I agree about the players but the debts have tripled since Romanov took over and he is planning to increase it further and I doubt that any of the transfer money will be used to try and decrease the debt nor will it be used to buy replacements of any decent standing. I fancy that we will have another influx of second rate Lithuanians and one or two promising youngsters that we will ruin within a year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The crown jewels of our current squad, and this summer should not be for sale at any cost. I recognise that every player has their price, but we are talking about three young guys, all with 3 to 4 years left on their contracts, all still developing, all yet to reach peak value.We should be building our squad around those players for the next couple of years, then maybe think about selling. I have no problem with Hearts selling a player when they have reached their peak value and we have a younger replacement lined up. In the past we have managed this, Robinson was often critiscised for selling players on the cheap but in selling Cameron (1.7 million at the age of 29), Niemi (2 million at the age of 29) and Naysmith (1.75 million) he got fantastic value for some our star assets. One of the main differences between now and then is that back then we always had a competent head coach to at least attempt to unearth a decent replacement, do we have that now? If Hearts banked 2 million for Berra and went out and bought a Darren Barr or a Mark Reynolds, no one would have any problem with that..but is that even remotely likely under the current regime? I'm nit sure abour 'crown jewels' either but they are certainly the best of a very bad lot. Your point however is very valid and is the common sense view; we should not be selling our best players. but the common sense view counts for nought when your owner is a header. If we got reasonable bids for these players they will most likely be off. Romanov doesn't give a friar tuck about building for the future, he'll cash in when the price (not the time) is right. I strongly suspect he feels he has ready made 'quality' replacements in zaliukus, ivaskevicus and Ksnavicus. If he trousered 4 million for the 3 players you mentioned, he'd see that as great business and you can bet your ass that not a bolt of that would find it's way back into team investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegementality Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I agree we shouldn't sell our best prospects either too cheaply or too early however Martin what you are possibly not taking into account is the players wishes or preferences, most SPL players would see a move to an upper championship club as a step up in level...should Hearts refuse moves when some big & possibly fair bids have been received could potentially result in one very unhappy player if he wanted the move? The players wishes and preferences a couple of seasons ago was to sign lucrative long terms deals. Are you really suggesting we should allow every player to leave should a decent offer come in for them, just incase it upsets them if we don't?. Tell me one other club that operates this policy. Didums, if they are unhappy, they signed a contract and know the consequences at Hearts (Webster, Brellier, rightly or wrongly) if they aren't happy. It seems to me you are just excuse making, again!, for this regime when they are sold on regardless of wether they want to move or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The players wishes and preferences a couple of seasons ago was to sign lucrative long terms deals. Are you really suggesting we should allow every player to leave should a decent offer come in for them, just incase it upsets them if we don't?. Tell me one other club that operates this policy. Didums, if they are unhappy, they signed a contract and know the consequences at Hearts (Webster, Brellier, rightly or wrongly) if they aren't happy. It seems to me you are just excuse making, again!, for this regime when they are sold on regardless of wether they want to move or not. Your just havering.....Gary MacKay's quotes in the Evening News suggest the player would be interested in a move however the BBC Football Website says Berra is away on holiday and won't be sold or the bid decided upon either way until a manager is appointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/heart_of_midlothian/7431856.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chat Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 common sense view counts for nought when your owner is a header. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jackdaddy2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I wouldn't have a problem with us selling Jonsson, Berra or Driver as long as the money is right. People shouldn't forget that we're ?37 million in debt - we simply cannot afford to turn down decent offers for our players. People shouldn't forget we are being told we are ?37m in debt, and that the creditor is the club owner. How on earth have we lost another ?14m when we made a estimated gross income of ?12m in 2006 before we sold Gordon? If Beslija was our most expensive signing, where has the money went? I honestly sometimes think it would be better in the long term if we started afresh in the third division without Romanov and struggled for 5 years. The way things are going, in 5 years we will still be moaning about the same stuff while this gangster has made ?50m out of the hearts and caused nothing but grief for the fans. He cant even be arsed to communicate with us about the managers position. He will come to a grizzly end in my opinion if he doesn't sort this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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