MikeP Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 My wife supports Hull City and we've seen quite a few Championship matches this season, and for quite a few seasons prior to that. The standard overall isn't brilliant, and - like previous posters - I think that Hearts, hibs, Motherwell, Dundee United & possibly Aberdeen would more than hold their own in it, with whichever SPL teams were having a good season being in the top half. Bearing in mind Hull have just been promoted to the EPL (And I take into account what has been said about the Championship having been "strange" this season, to put it mildly) I honestly think that they'd struggle to beat an average Hearts team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I think it's mental that WBA won the league despite losing something like 12 games.That just tells you that there are no outstanding teams in the league and that WBA have virtually no chance of staying up. Uh uh - I don't agree. West Brom had so many problems clinching the title precisely because their style of play just doesn't work on heavy winter pitches away to, say, Blackpool or Scunthorpe. The Championship's always been known as a horrendously physical, direct sort of league - and in recent seasons, direct, up and at 'em sides have generally been successful: think Stoke this year, Birmingham and Derby last, Sheffield United and Watford the year before that, Sunderland the year before that, Megson's West Brom the year before that. But what do these sides have in common? Almost all went straight back down - and some, like Derby or Sunderland, proved mindbogglingly out of their depth. Meanwhile, more ambitious sides like Reading (last season, anyway), West Ham or Portsmouth made the leap with no problem. I admire Mowbray because it's far, far more risky playing his way - but it also provides the best chance to establish yourself in the Prem. And that, I believe they will do: mark my words, while Stoke are humiliated almost weekly, and Hull win new friends a la Barnsley 97/8 but still drop after maybe surprising a few people, the Baggies will survive. You'll see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas-voss Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Depends on who Mowbray can add to his team. He now will receive a cash cow to spend anyway he wishes. All he needs to do is the same as Keane and keep them up for one year. Even more money next year. In saying that I didn't think Reading would be relegated. You have to be able to defend in the EPL and thats one thing a TM team has never been able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Mc Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 The side under Burley would've held their own in the EPL, brashy. But our more traditional top 3 or 4 side would be on the fringes of the play-offs, either just getting in or just missing out. One thing though. I can't put this strongly enough, but the Championship this season was unusually bad. The standard was absolutely shocking - Stoke went up automatically with just 79 points, only four more than is usually needed for a top 6 spot, fourth placed Bristol City had a goal difference of just +1, and relegated Leicester had, get this, the second best defensive record in the entire league!! I'd be astonished if it's as poor again next year - statistically, it's almost impossible for it to be so - and the probable contenders (Birmingham, QPR, Derby, Wolves, Ipswich, Palace, Sheffield United, Reading) have in a number of cases serious amounts of dosh to spend: money that no non-OF club has. So it may be that this season was a freak in terms of how many SPL clubs would've done well in the Champ: which is odd, when you consider how often Kickbackers have slagged off the SPL anyway! Funny how opinion changes once people are sticking up for their own, isn't it? Shaun, for years up in Scotland we've wanted a closely contested league instead of having one, two or three teams running away with it. This year, when the championship was close and about 18 teams still had something to play for with two games to go it's being criticised. As I said earlier the quality of a lot of what I saw was poor but at least the league was exciting. Would it have been a better competition if WBA and Stoke had got 90+ points each? I long for the day when we have two games to go in the SPL and all to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrH Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I actually think the standard of football in the SPL is and has been better than the Championship for a while. There are definitely more bigger clubs down there and perhaps more competition in the league, but the overall standard is very poor. But it's amazing the interest it can generate when it's so expertly marketed as it is by SKY - that's probably why most people will say it's better than our league. Just look at some of the guys who've failed up here who've gone on to do really well in that league. Lee Bullen couldn't even get a game for Dunfermline and he ended up being Sheff Wed captain - Dean Windass (good when he was up here but that was 10+years ago!) is pushing 40 and still one of the top players in the league - even Roman Bednar struggled a bit up here, although that's probably more to do with the way he was managed. Mind you, there are probably examples of the opposite too. Good debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Good thread, this. I think the main difference is the championship is much more entertaining because it's so competetive. The season has been brilliant, with exciting things happening all over the table, and about 10 teams in the running for promotion for months. Then you look at the SPL. Yet another two horse race, not much excitement anywhere else (certainly not at the lower end of the table with Gretna holding bottom spot from the start) and in the main poor attendances for most clubs in the league. To answer the original question, I think Shaun Lawson's post sums it all up pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Shaun, for years up in Scotland we've wanted a closely contested league instead of having one, two or three teams running away with it. This year, when the championship was close and about 18 teams still had something to play for with two games to go it's being criticised. As I said earlier the quality of a lot of what I saw was poor but at least the league was exciting. Would it have been a better competition if WBA and Stoke had got 90+ points each? I long for the day when we have two games to go in the SPL and all to play for. Oh, sure. The unpredictability of it is amazing - and the total opposite of the horrendously static EPL, in which not only have the same four clubs finished in the top four for four of the last five seasons (something unprecedented in English football history), but last season, the self-evidently fifth to twelfth best squads on paper finished in positions 5-12, and the weakest eight squads, places 13-20. There's three divisions within one league - and every prospect of things getting ever worse, the more CL and SKY money distort things. The 06/7 Championship was remarkable as well: I recall there being seven clubs in serious contention for the title as we headed into April. But the trouble is that the lack of money within the league is creating a dreadfully poor quality product: it's exciting, yes, but believe me, if you were a Watford fan, say, you'd have tired of it all pretty quickly. There's a happy medium between a competitive league and quality teams which needs to be found: I suspect next season's edition could well provide it, especially given the wealth being pumped into QPR, Coventry and maybe Ipswich, but the credibility of the league depends on a little more class, a little less of the big hoof, I'd say. As for what you say about the SPL: of course, if the OF ever left (for a Super League, I presume), a very competitive league should be the result. There'd be power bases in Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee, and the tantalising carrot of someone completely new - ICT, say - becoming Champions. The race for 3rd this season showed what things could be like - but then, given such a league would struggle desperately for sponsorship and any media coverage at all, it might ultimately prove more trouble than it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Terraces Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Most SPL teams wouldn't survive in the Championship in England. Scottish football is utterly bereft of anything involving skill, sorry, those who say The SPL is comparable in any way are kidding themselves. SPL - League 1 at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Shaton Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 If Hearts played in the Championship we would attract bigger crowds, playing against more interesting clubs with similar sized supports rather than the monotony of playing StMirren, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd and all the other diddy clubs. If Hearts, via the Championship, managed to attain (and retain) Premiership status we would be able to build a home support far in excess of many of the lower end Premiership teams. In fact, given the population of Edinburgh and the huge latent support we have, I see no reason why we couldn't fill Romanov's fantasy 40,000 stadium in that event. I would much rather have Hearts playing in the Championship for the prize of playing in a real league than sit tight in Scotland with the aim of playing one or two UEFA cup games every few years. It's never going to happen though. What must English people think when they watch Setanta - Gretna v Dundee Utd in front of 900 fans - our league is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Most SPL teams wouldn't survive in the Championship in England. Scottish football is utterly bereft of anything involving skill, sorry, those who say The SPL is comparable in any way are kidding themselves. SPL - League 1 at best. I think this was more the case a few years ago than now, to be honest. I'm absolutely convinced that Motherwell, for example, would've done really well in this season's Championship - and they're not a side I'd describe as 'bereft of skill' either. That said, I've just reviewed the thread, and had to smile at redm's post. (S)he described the Championship as "as bad as or worse than the SPL, but without any of the pace". I laughed because truly, only a Scot could write such a thing. When I first started watching Scottish football, I couldn't believe my eyes: it had all the mistakes and general ineptitude I was already accustomed to, but was played at 200 mph rather than 100 mph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 If Hearts played in the Championship we would attract bigger crowds, playing against more interesting clubs with similar sized supports rather than the monotony of playing StMirren, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd and all the other diddy clubs. If Hearts, via the Championship, managed to attain (and retain) Premiership status we would be able to build a home support far in excess of many of the lower end Premiership teams. In fact, given the population of Edinburgh and the huge latent support we have, I see no reason why we couldn't fill Romanov's fantasy 40,000 stadium in that event. I would much rather have Hearts playing in the Championship for the prize of playing in a real league than sit tight in Scotland with the aim of playing one or two UEFA cup games every few years. It's never going to happen though. What must English people think when they watch Setanta - Gretna v Dundee Utd in front of 900 fans - our league is a joke. It's a joke that's provided the UEFA Cup runners-up, CL last 16 qualifiers and UEFA Cup last 32 qualifiers though, to be fair. I still think Scottish football does remarkably well for what it essentially is: the national game of only six million people, in a league dwarfed by two tyrannical behemoths. And Gretna were a freak anyway: they're gone now, and a real club is on its way up to take their place. I'd probably prefer Hearts to be in the Championship too, on reflection. But that said, I'm horribly aware of what a ******* of a league it is to get out of - and at least, as things stand, we still have a chance of doing something on a European stage, which is one of the very best things about following the club I'd say. We all need to be careful not to compare ourselves with a country which hosts the wealthiest, highest profile league on the planet, and a passion for the game which allows a full 92 league clubs to exist: Scotland compares perfectly well with leagues from similar sized countries, and to be honest, if England is always held up as the yardstick, fans of Scottish clubs will never be satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Based purely on this season, here's how I think the SPL sides would've fared in the English league: Celtic: 7th or 8th, EPL Rangers: 11th or 12th, EPL Motherwell: 2nd, Championship Aberdeen: top 10, Championship Dundee United: top 10, Championship Hibernian: 13th or 14th, Championship Falkirk: bottom six, Championship Heart of Midlothian: bottom three, Championship Inverness Caledonian Thistle: top half, League One St Mirren: mid-table, League One Kilmarnock: bottom eight, League One Gretna: bottom half, Conference Make of that what you will. Overall, NMH's assessment is the one I agree with most. I'd add that on a couple of fleeting occasions, Hearts have had teams which I think would've held their own in the EPL: 97/8 and early in 05/6, to be specific - but generally, we'd be a mid-table Championship club, very similar to, well, Norwich actually. Total fantasy football. No basis for your workings SL. Of course that's only my opinion. It's almost like comparing eras in football or boxing. Impossible to say how well we'd do if in that league. Perhaps with the possibility of EPL at the end of the season VR would get in a named coach and spend the money to put a team on the park that would walk it. It's all speculation. And as the four FA's will never give up their autonomy and chance at Euro & World Cup finals it will never happen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Shaton Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 It's a joke that's provided the UEFA Cup runners-up, CL last 16 qualifiers and UEFA Cup last 32 qualifiers though, to be fair. I still think Scottish football does remarkably well for what it essentially is: the national game of only six million people, in a league dwarfed by two tyrannical behemoths. And Gretna were a freak anyway: they're gone now, and a real club is on its way up to take their place. I'd probably prefer Hearts to be in the Championship too, on reflection. But that said, I'm horribly aware of what a ******* of a league it is to get out of - and at least, as things stand, we still have a chance of doing something on a European stage, which is one of the very best things about following the club I'd say. We all need to be careful not to compare ourselves with a country which hosts the wealthiest, highest profile league on the planet, and a passion for the game which allows a full 92 league clubs to exist: Scotland compares perfectly well with leagues from similar sized countries, and to be honest, if England is always held up as the yardstick, fans of Scottish clubs will never be satisfied. Whether it's Gretna with crowds of 400 or Motherwell with 3000 - it is a little embarrassing. As for our European achievements - exclude the Old Firm and we have one club who've made it past the UEFA group stages in the last 5 years and many clubs eliminated at the first time of asking. I'd much rather be playing in a competitive, balanced league with the carrot of Premiership football than the non-event, OF skewed inevitability that is the SPL. If the capital of Wales can be represented in the Championship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Total fantasy football. No basis for your workings SL. Of course that's only my opinion. It's almost like comparing eras in football or boxing. Impossible to say how well we'd do if in that league. Perhaps with the possibility of EPL at the end of the season VR would get in a named coach and spend the money to put a team on the park that would walk it. It's all speculation. And as the four FA's will never give up their autonomy and chance at Euro & World Cup finals it will never happen!! There is no chance of Serie A, La Liga and The EPL announcing a merger but it's still possible to compare their relative strengths at the moment. Obviously the whole exercise is speculative but attempting do make a meaningfull comparisons between contemporaneous collections of teams is clearly a lot easier than comparing teams across time. Especially when they are operating in a similar enviroment and with a substantial flow of personnell from one to the other. We'll never be able to provide an authorative and definitive answer one way or another but there's no shortage of clues and pointers. If there is a consensus emerging from this discussion it would appear to be that the SPL has a wider range of standard but that in general it's not far off the Championship or at least closer to that standard than it is to League 1 or to the Premiership. It's hard to see any grounds for being more precise than that and it's even harder still to be accurate about the relative standings of specific teams especially one that exhibits the kind of rollercoaster form that Hearts have of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Shaton Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Comparison of average attendances: Premier League: 35,911 Championship: 18,211 SPL: 16,194 League 1: 7,489 League 2:4,133 (Serie A: 18,473) (Ligue 1: 21,817) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john brownlee Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 It's all relative to economics, demographics etc. The Old Firm are the size of top 10 EPL teams, Hearts, Hibs & Aberdeen are middle-to-lower size Championship teams Dundee United are the equivalent of a mid-size League-One side All the rest SPL are bottom League-One / League-Two teams whilst Hamilton / Gretna are (were) similar size to Blue Square Premier (conference) and the population of scotland is the equivalent to the population manchester and liverpool Try watching both Epl and chumps league no way are they as entertaining as SPL . fair enough some games are not as good but on average the scottish game is far better. IMO. I have for many years been to games down south and could not wait to get back to scotland to watch games with skill and passion a rareity in engerland. Until you have personal experience of watching both types of game there is no way you can judge which is better. It all boils down to ones personal choice, its the marmite syndrome you either love it or hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDONis Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 As someone that has watched Reading and Aberdeen for several years, there have been times when Reading would beat Aberdeen and others when Aberdeen would beat Reading. The 6 biggest in the SPL (at least) would easily cope with the Championship, and would push for top quarter of the league most seasons. You do get exceptional teams from time to time (Fulham when they went up and Reading three years ago), but the rest are much of a muchness. aDONis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Total fantasy football. No basis for your workings SL. Of course that's only my opinion. It's almost like comparing eras in football or boxing. Impossible to say how well we'd do if in that league. Perhaps with the possibility of EPL at the end of the season VR would get in a named coach and spend the money to put a team on the park that would walk it. It's all speculation. And as the four FA's will never give up their autonomy and chance at Euro & World Cup finals it will never happen!! Oh, sure. There's no way of knowing for certain - and all I'm going on is the evidence of my own eyes, having watched plenty of Championship and SPL games this past season. And my feeling (but it can only ever be that) is that the SPL is underrated: we've seen that with so many on here dismissing Rangers for much of the season, only for them to wind up in the UEFA Cup Final, while no English side (including the eventual 5th placed team and one which won a major trophy) even got beyond the last 16. You're dead right in the bit I've emboldened though. Around the world, many people can't understand why the UK get four bites of the cherry in World Cups and European Championships - but a combined British team would never work, and even though Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham play in the English pyramid, I can't envisage UEFA ever allowing Scottish clubs to play there too. Though if a Super League forces their hand, that's where things could become interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Whether it's Gretna with crowds of 400 or Motherwell with 3000 - it is a little embarrassing. As for our European achievements - exclude the Old Firm and we have one club who've made it past the UEFA group stages in the last 5 years and many clubs eliminated at the first time of asking. I'd much rather be playing in a competitive, balanced league with the carrot of Premiership football than the non-event, OF skewed inevitability that is the SPL. If the capital of Wales can be represented in the Championship... In fairness to Motherwell, their gates have tended to hover at around 5K rather than dropping that low - but actually, I'd say that shows how remarkable it is that they've been able to develop such a decent side. Meanwhile, certainly, the European results of non-OF clubs have been nothing to write home about - but they are getting better. No-one gave Aberdeen a prayer of doing so well before their campaign began: most, indeed, though Dnipro would knock them out. But while they enjoyed quite a following wind en route, eliminating Dnipro and then qualifying ahead of Lokamotiv Moscow and Copenhagen was highly meritorious - and that's even before holding a true European super club in the first leg at Pittodrie! Maybe their success was a one-off - but given how much the OF's results in Europe have improved too, I'm not so sure. Celtic's budget for 07/8 was significantly lower than Derby's; yet there they were, in the last 16 again - and Rangers completely surpassed themselves in the UEFA. I'm more than a little curious as to how Well get on next season: I'm sure everyone will assume they'll fall flat on their faces without much credit, but with McGhee in charge, you never know. It's highly probable, though, that as long as the OF are around, Hearts' potential could be tapped much better if we were in the Championship. But that's to presuppose getting through Leagues Two and One would be a walk in the park, which it certainly would not - and there remains the problem of Tynie's capacity anyway. It'll never happen though. All that talk about an Atlantic League or the OF moving to the EPL seemed to die down after 2002 or so: I'm not quite sure why. But turkeys are hardly going to vote for Christmas: which applies to both owners of smaller EPL clubs and all Championship ones. Why make it harder for yourselves to either stay up or go up? So, unhappily, we're stuck with them. Back in May 2002, the OF came perilously close to agreeing a move to the then English First Division - but it didn't happen, and you have to think what happened after the Millwall-Birmingham play-off semi was playing on more than a few chairmen's minds. If self-preservation wasn't a big enough factor persuading them against the uglies' admittance, the prospect of Millwall v Celtic was the real clincher. Imagine what a party that would've been! And unless the OF are able to leave, there's no chance of us being able to do so either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Striker Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Remove the backdrop of the large attendances in the modern stadia and it's quite often pretty dire stuff on display. Didn't Craig Levein say that the Hearts team he left would have won the Championship? I think he was right. I heard Levein on the radio a couple of months back saying that in Scotland, we are too quick to put the standard of football in the SPL down and that in his opinion (having experienced both) the standard was better than the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 As someone that has watched Reading and Aberdeen for several years, there have been times when Reading would beat Aberdeen and others when Aberdeen would beat Reading. The 6 biggest in the SPL (at least) would easily cope with the Championship, and would push for top quarter of the league most seasons. You do get exceptional teams from time to time (Fulham when they went up and Reading three years ago), but the rest are much of a muchness. aDONis I'd go with that. There are peaks and troughs..... sometimes SPL sides would do well in the Championship, other seasons, they'd struggle a bit..... I think thats probably what makes it such a "good" league (not sure if that the right word to use) - the fact that there are so many teams of an EQUAL ability. The single biggest difference can be seen here though.... Playoff match between the 3rd and 4th Place teams in the championship..... at a ground which is what 150 - 200 miles from both teams "home"..... 86703 folk turned up to see it. Nearly EIGHTY SEVEN THOUSAND folk. Wonder what kinda crowd would turn up to see a match between 3rd and 4th from the SPL..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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