Christianity

[Maple Leaf]

Nazis wanted everyone dead who wasn't seen as part of the "Ayran" race. Hitler used Jews as scapegoats to give the German people someone to blame and hate for all their problems. He had to rile the German people into action and he used his and the growing hatred of Jews to do this. Religion had nothing to with it.

Among the six million Jews that the Nazis murdered were one million children, tens of thousands of whom were mere babes in arms.

 

If we accept your contention that "religion had nothing to do with it", then we must accept that Hitler murdered those children because he held them responsible for Germany's defeat in WWI, they caused the great depression in Germany, that they were planning world domination, that he envied them their wealth and power, etc., ... the other things you mentioned in your earlier post.

 

or

 

we can accept that he murdered those one million children, along with their parents, for no other reason than that they were Jews.

 

In my opinion, the first scenario is highly unlikely, the second much more probable.

[Norm]

Hitler didn't want them killed because of their religion. I'm not aware of his hatred being based on his dislike of their faith.

 

His hatred was based on his own misguided stereotype of what Jews were like as people. They were gready, trying to take over global finance and responsible for the defeat in WW1 and communism. And he believed, more or less, that all Jews were the same.

 

The best way I can describe it is, he didn't hate the Jewish faith. He just hated the people practising it.

[i8hibsh]

I actually can't believe this is even being debated. It strikes me that those saying it had nothing to do with religion are the same shower that can never admit there is a global Islamic terror threat after yet another terror attack carried out by Muslims.

 

I am sure if you ask a Jewish person who survived the holocaust they would not take too kindly to the denial shown here.

[i8hibsh]

Hitler didn't want them killed because of their religion. I'm not aware of his hatred being based on his dislike of their faith.

His hatred was based on his own misguided stereotype of what Jews were like as people. They were gready, trying to take over global finance and responsible for the defeat in WW1 and communism. And he believed, more or less, that all Jews were the same.

The best way I can describe it is, he didn't hate the Jewish faith. He just hated the people practising it.

So he hated Jews then?

[Boab]

Among the six million Jews that the Nazis murdered were one million children, tens of thousands of whom were mere babes in arms.

 

If we accept your contention that "religion had nothing to do with it", then we must accept that Hitler murdered those children because he held them responsible for Germany's defeat in WWI, they caused the great depression in Germany, that they were planning world domination, that he envied them their wealth and power, etc., ... the other things you mentioned in your earlier post.

 

or

 

we can accept that he murdered those one million children, along with their parents, for no other reason than that they were Jews.

 

In my opinion, the first scenario is highly unlikely, the second much more probable.

 

 

or

 

he was clinically insane, which got worse with age and, more importantly, power.

[Norm]

So he hated Jews then?

Yes, but not because of their faith.

 

Basically, he thought all the people who were responsible for the world's woes were Jewish. So he hated Jews. Not the fact they practised Judaism.

[i8hibsh]

Yes, but not because of their faith.

Basically, he thought all the people who were responsible for the world's woes were Jewish. So he hated Jews. Not the fact they practised Judaism.

I know all about Hitler. Like most, I have educated myself on WW2 my whole life. What you are saying is not making sense. He hated Jews. He hated everything about them and resented how successful they tended to be. How on Earth did their religion not play a part in this. If I hated all Muslims and wanted them all dead would it be a fair assumption that I had an issue with their religion?

[AlimOzturk]

I know all about Hitler. Like most, I have educated myself on WW2 my whole life. What you are saying is not making sense. He hated Jews. He hated everything about them and resented how successful they tended to be. How on Earth did their religion not play a part in this. If I hated all Muslims and wanted them all dead would it be a fair assumption that I had an issue with their religion?

I hate jazz. Doesn't mean I hate people who play Jazz music or listen to Jazz.

 

Hitler hated Jews. Doesn't mean he hated the Jewish faith.

 

You hate religion. Doesn't mean you hate religious people.

 

Get where I am going with this?

 

Hitler also killed gay, black people, old people and disabled. While not at the same level as Jews. Was it because Of their Religion? No it is because they didn't fit in with his master race theory. That is all he was interested in, not religion.

 

You aren't the only one educated on WW2.

[Riddley Walker]

I hate jazz. Doesn't mean I hate people who play Jazz music listen to Jazz.

 

Hitler hater Jews. Doesn't mean he hated Judaism.

 

You hate religion. Doesn't you hate rigorous people.

 

Get where I am going with this?

 

Hitler also had gas, black people, old people and disabled executed. Was it because Of their Religion? No it is because they didn't fit in with his master race theory. That is all he was interested in, not religion.

 

You aren't the only one educated on WW2.

But the fact that it was Jewish people he exterminated means it is inextricably linked to Judaism.

 

Your comparison with I8's dislike of religion doesn't stack up. He doesn't like the belief, not the individual.

[AlimOzturk]

But the fact that it was Jewish people he exterminated means it is inextricably linked to Judaism.

 

Your comparison with I8's dislike of religion doesn't stack up. He doesn't like the belief, not the individual.

Thats exactly what I said regarding I8? I never said he disliked the individual.

[i8hibsh]

Holy shit this is absurd. Ok religion had nothing to do with it so let us not even mention the fact that they were jews then as it is irrelevant. The holocaust had nothing to do with Jews. Hitler hated Jewish people and their way of life. The fact that 6 millon people were similar purely down to the fact they were Jewish is irrelevant. I hate all rugby players but it has **** all to do with rugby.

[Norm]

Let me try and explain it another way. It's a bit difficult to get across my meaning.

 

Say you're at work. All the people at work are Alloa fans. They screw you over all the time, giving you shite jobs, raking in all the bonuses and making your life misery. It gets to the stage where every single Alloa fan you meet is a dick. So eventually, you flip out and kill all the Alloa fans you meet. Your co-workers, their family, their neighbours. Your issue is with Alloa fans. Not Alloa FC.

[i8hibsh]

Let me try and explain it another way. It's a bit difficult to get across my meaning.

Say you're at work. All the people at work are Alloa fans. They screw you over all the time, giving you shite jobs, raking in all the bonuses and making your life misery. It gets to the stage where every single Alloa fan you meet is a dick. So eventually, you flip out and kill all the Alloa fans you meet. Your co-workers, their family, their neighbours. Your issue is with Alloa fans. Not Alloa FC.

But it is a football thing right?

[Maple Leaf]

I'm having a tough time getting my head around this idea:

 

A country that predominantly practices the Christian religion murders millions of adherents to the Jewish religion, regardless of age or any other factor, but it was nothing to do with religion?

 

In the hypothetical situation of two doctors working side by side saving Christian lives, one being a Jew and one being a Christian, the Jew would be sentenced to death while the Christian would be spared, yet that decision has nothing to do with religion?

[i8hibsh]

I hate all Muslims and want them exterminated. They smell and I hate their way of life. I hate their Muslim ways and all they stand for. Oh but it has nothing to do with religion.

 

 

 

Note: I don't really.

 

This is so absurd.

[i8hibsh]

I guess Palestinians are just murdering Jews because they are invading their land and has nothing to do with religion too eh?

[i8hibsh]

Celtic and Rangers are not religiously motivated too I guess. They just hate each other.

 

People need to wake up and accept that religion is the most destructive force to ever exist. It will make the human race extinct if we don't kick it to the kerb.

[Maple Leaf]

For those who still insist that Hitler's hatred was directed at Jews and not Judaism, please explain why on one night alone, Kristallnacht, 1,400 synagogues were burned down, and every Torah and other Jewish book was desecrated then burned.

[i8hibsh]

For those who still insist that Hitler's hatred was directed at Jews and not Judaism, please explain why on one night alone, Kristallnacht, 1,400 synagogues were burned down, and every Torah and other Jewish book was desecrated then burned.

Ffs man he just hated architecture and literature.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Trying to parse Judaism between religion and race and ethnicity is doomed to failure.  The Biblical notion of the nation of Israel, that is to say all of the descendants of Israel (Jacob), is shot through all of the texts.  One can convert to Judaism but it's pretty clear that being descendants of Abraham is a key piece, along with the Law of Israel.

 

There's an entire group of people who refer to themselves as "cultural Jews" -- as in they're not religious at all, but they're still Jews.

 

But I'm not really sure why we're debating whether or not Judaism is a religion or not in terms of WWII.

 

The Holocaust was the bringing forward of long-standing European anti-Semitism, which various organs of the Christian church did its part to stoke, including but not remotely limited to the Inquisition.  Pogroms were a regular feature, particularly in Eastern Europe, well before the Holocaust.

 

If what i8hibsh is on about now is to pin the Holocaust on Christianity, he's going about it rather badly, but that doesn't mean he's totally wrong.  The European church had plenty of Jewish blood on its hands and did its full share of work in establishing anti-Semitism among European culture.  The fact that Hitler reinterpreted that anti-Semitism to be racial, political, and financial instead of religious (which he absolutely did) doesn't absolve European Christianity of its role in helping to spread that anti-Semitism in the first place.

 

It's also worth mentioning that some of the most dogged opponents of Hitler were also Christian (most notably Dietrich Bonhoeffer).

[Riddley Walker]

Thats exactly what I said regarding I8? I never said he disliked the individual.

That's what I meant. Since you said Hitler's belief system was the opposite the comparison doesn't work.

[i8hibsh]

Trying to parse Judaism between religion and race and ethnicity is doomed to failure.  The Biblical notion of the nation of Israel, that is to say all of the descendants of Israel (Jacob), is shot through all of the texts.  One can convert to Judaism but it's pretty clear that being descendants of Abraham is a key piece, along with the Law of Israel.

 

There's an entire group of people who refer to themselves as "cultural Jews" -- as in they're not religious at all, but they're still Jews.

 

But I'm not really sure why we're debating whether or not Judaism is a religion or not in terms of WWII.

 

The Holocaust was the bringing forward of long-standing European anti-Semitism, which various organs of the Christian church did its part to stoke, including but not remotely limited to the Inquisition.  Pogroms were a regular feature, particularly in Eastern Europe, well before the Holocaust.

 

If what i8hibsh is on about now is to pin the Holocaust on Christianity, he's going about it rather badly, but that doesn't mean he's totally wrong.  The European church had plenty of Jewish blood on its hands and did its full share of work in establishing anti-Semitism among European culture.  The fact that Hitler reinterpreted that anti-Semitism to be racial, political, and financial instead of religious (which he absolutely did) doesn't absolve European Christianity of its role in helping to spread that anti-Semitism in the first place.

 

It's also worth mentioning that some of the most dogged opponents of Hitler were also Christian (most notably Dietrich Bonhoeffer).

To be fair UA I never once pinned WW2 and the holocaust solely on Christianity or religion. But to say religion was not a factor and did not play a role is absurd.

[mullen13]

Hitler hated them as a group of people, not for their religious practices. He felt threatened. It's like singing "kickbacks for aholes" but you don't mind the actual website, just the people on it.

 

Its like me saying Hibs as a club at the top don't bother me, I can see what they are trying to do. The fans are a threat to the Edinburgh society and I view them as completely inferior and shouldn't be allowed to continue. Therefor I need to shut down the club and eliminate the current fans to stop this from festering.

 

He probably saw it as an ideology, a financial network, a race and a community before he saw it as a religion.

[AlimOzturk]

Hitler hated them as a group of people, not for their religious practices. He felt threatened. It's like singing "kickbacks for aholes" but you don't mind the actual website, just the people on it.

 

Its like me saying Hibs as a club at the top don't bother me, I can see what they are trying to do. The fans are a threat to the Edinburgh society and I view them as completely inferior and shouldn't be allowed to continue. Therefor I need to shut down the club and eliminate the current fans to stop this from festering.

 

He probably saw it as an ideology, a financial network, a race and a community before he saw it as a religion.

This.

 

I8 is allowing his hatred of Christianity to blind his ability to actually debate the subject like Maple Leaf is doing. Instead he is resorting to insults and facepalm everyone.

[Ray Gin]

Hitler hated them as a group of people, not for their religious practices.

 

They are a group of people defined by their religious practices though.

[mullen13]

They are a group of people defined by their religious practices though.

 

OK so they would define themselves by that but Hitler certainly didn't.

 

He thought they were gaining control of the media, the banks, and undermining the military. He hated the american Capitalist system which he felt was driven by Jews. He didn't hate them because they didn't eat certain meats or spoke Hebrew or had different weddings that is for sure.

[i8hibsh]

This.

 

I8 is allowing his hatred of Christianity to blind his ability to actually debate the subject like Maple Leaf is doing. Instead he is resorting to insults and facepalm everyone.

 

 

All religion is worthy of is insults and facepalm.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Relegion/Racism/bigotry they were all just tools used in WW2 to get to the final solution, which was more about Land than ideology, religious or otherwise.

 

Most, maybe even all, wars are about Land, religion is a propaganda tool.

 

Yes -- land and money.  Lebensraum ("living space") was a big thing that the Nazis were after, and they saw Jewish bankers as being an evil conspiracy holding that back.

 

Religion is a complicated thing that's tied up in culture and language and nationhood.  It never exists independently on its own.

[AlimOzturk]

Going to say it again. Even if Jews renounced their faith Hitler would still want them dead because he viewed them as sub human.

 

Also going to say it again. Hitler didn't just target Jews. Gypsies, Poles, homosexuals, communists, international traders, the handicapped. They all got the same treatment whilst not in the sameevel as Jewish. There was enough hatred to go around and it was all down to the master race and as pointed out living space for Germans.

 

Trying to rationalise Hitlers actions is impossible because he was a lunatic hyped up on drugs, Paranoia and prejudice and he was in charge. it may seem hard to accpet that he targeted Jews not for their religion which is what defines them, but for other things which I have already pointed out. This is the way it was.

[mullen13]

All religion is worthy of is insults and facepalm.

 

Now I see where you are coming from and if somebody had just invented religion yesterday then I would completely agree with you. When most of these religions were founded it made complete sense to almost everybody and was then used as a tool to manipulate people over time. They probably started out as ideologies to explain life's great questions and form a better society. Nowadays most of these beliefs are completely obsolete but how do you eradicate thousands of years of infrastructure, culture and history? The study of religions is still one of the most important things somebody can do whether they agree with them or not.

 

The old lonely woman explaining her husbands death and her meeting him again with heaven can be good for her. The manipulative terror leader using dozens of young "martyrs" to further his cause is a horrible thing. Either way it is deeply ingrained within society.

[i8hibsh]

Now I see where you are coming from and if somebody had just invented religion yesterday then I would completely agree with you. When most of these religions were founded it made complete sense to almost everybody and was then used as a tool to manipulate people over time. They probably started out as ideologies to explain life's great questions and form a better society. Nowadays most of these beliefs are completely obsolete but how do you eradicate thousands of years of infrastructure, culture and history? The study of religions is still one of the most important things somebody can do whether they agree with them or not.

 

The old lonely woman explaining her husbands death and her meeting him again with heaven can be good for her. The manipulative terror leader using dozens of young "martyrs" to further his cause is a horrible thing. Either way it is deeply ingrained within society.

Studying it is fine. Believing that it is the final solution in this day is not. I picked on Islam there just to balance it out for the Jesus botherers.

[AlimOzturk]

Studying it is fine. Believing that it is the final solution in this day is not. I picked on Islam there just to balance it out for the Jesus botherers.

I agree with you I8 that religion is an outdated and often harmful plague on society. One day, if humanity doesn't kill itself it will become obsolete. Signs already showing that the UK is becoming, if not is a pretty secular nation.

 

Unfortunately the world will then find something else to argue over.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/616588/Royal-Mail-Christian-message-Christmas-stamps

 

 

Fair enough

[michael_bolton]

I actually find it quite interesting that some people can't grasp the concept that Hitler hated all the members of a religion, but for reasons that were not really to do with their religion. It's quite easy to get.

 

As has been pointed out above, a Jew who renounced their faith would not have been spared by the Nazis. Amazing how simplistic some people's view of history can be.

[Ray Gin]

I actually find it quite interesting that some people can't grasp the concept that Hitler hated all the members of a religion, but for reasons that were not really to do with their religion. It's quite easy to get.

 

As has been pointed out above, a Jew who renounced their faith would not have been spared by the Nazis. Amazing how simplistic some people's view of history can be.

A white German who converted to Judaism would not have been spared either.

[michael_bolton]

A white German who converted to Judaism would not have been spared either.

 

Only because he'd aligned himself with the wrong gang.

 

The holocaust is an open and shut case of racism. Many Jews were baptized 'into' catholicism at this time, but the Axis countries by and large simply refused to recognise this. It was a race issue, not one of religion or theology. See the case of the Nazis refusing protestant Jews the right to leave for Brazil. The fact that they actually followed a completely different religion to the one being persecuted was irrelevant to the Nazis. The hated the race.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

You buying some?

Perhaps

 

You?

[elvoys]

This Christmas my thoughts are with the the Christians who are in the last stages of a 1400 year long wiping out across the birthplace of their religion whilst our govt hang a foreign sec out to dry who dared criticize the country who unabashedly maintain this legacy today. The dead women and children in St Marks in Cairo today should highlight this but unfortunately a religion called political correctness (with its main sect cultural relatavism) has taken its place here. And as a testament to its brainwashing power the pointy hatted one himself is its most zealous convert.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Has anyone else read or seen

'Heaven is for Real' ?

 

About a young boy who apparently visited heaven when he almost died on a operating table?

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/magazine/my-son-went-to-heaven-and-all-i-got-was-a-no-1-best-seller.html

 

http://www.heavenlive.org

 

 

Not sure if I believe it myself but don't know how to explain some of things he 'saw'

[Ray Gin]

A young boy who was off his tits on drugs while being operated on is hardly a credible source.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

'Heaven is for Real'

 

Full story in my new book and DVD.

 

And mugs still fall for this stuff.

[Maple Leaf]

'Heaven is for Real'

 

Full story in my new book and DVD.

 

And mugs still fall for this stuff.

Science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard decided that the best way to make money is to start a religion, so he created Scientology, which is the biggest load of bollocks imaginable.

 

But people pay to join, he fought for and got tax exempt status, and now the organisation is worth billions.  

 

Apparently, there is no shortage of people looking for more to life than what mere day-to-day living can provide.

[AlimOzturk]

Science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard decided that the best way to make money is to start a religion, so he created Scientology, which is the biggest load of bollocks imaginable.

 

But people pay to join, he fought for and got tax exempt status, and now the organisation is worth billions.

 

Apparently, there is no shortage of people looking for more to life than what mere day-to-day living can provide.

Wasnt Hubbard who got the tax free exception it was David mascavidge.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

'Heaven is for Real'

 

Full story in my new book and DVD.

 

And mugs still fall for this stuff.

But how would a kid of 4 know some of the stuff he apparently came out with / saw?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

But how would a kid of 4 know some of the stuff he apparently came out with / saw?

 

"At 3 years 10 months, Colton Burpo was a sunny child, a preacher?s son certain of his faith and his eternal fate."

 

How can a 4 yr old kid be certain of his faith and his eternal fate?

His father is a preacher, I would suggest he's been fed the information by his father.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

"At 3 years 10 months, Colton Burpo was a sunny child, a preacher?s son certain of his faith and his eternal fate."

 

How can a 4 yr old kid be certain of his faith and his eternal fate?

His father is a preacher, I would suggest he's been fed the information by his father.

But he is an adult now and still claims it was all true:

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/carlton.burpo.stands.by.heaven.is.for.real/46173.htm

[Jambo-Jimbo]

But he is an adult now and still claims it was all true:

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/carlton.burpo.stands.by.heaven.is.for.real/46173.htm

 

When I was just a youngster my dad told me that the Hibs were vermin and I believed him.

 

Now that I'm an adult I still believe the Hibs are vermin, do you see where I'm coming from here?

 

If you get taught something when your very young it will often stay with you throughout your life, and you will firmly believe it's true.

[Ray Gin]

But he is an adult now and still claims it was all true:

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/carlton.burpo.stands.by.heaven.is.for.real/46173.htm

 

 

A 4 year old with a preacher father is not a credible source, especially a 4 year old who was off his tits on drugs at the time.

 

If you had a 4 year old kid who watched teletubbies all the time, had surgery and when they woke up they told you they had entered the land of the teletubbies, would you think the teletubbies were real?

[Jambo 4 Ever]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/betsy-devos-us-education-secretary-advance-gods-kingdom-donald-trump-pick-confirmed-senate-hearing-a7568641.html

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-education-trump-religion-232150

 

The billionaire philanthropist whom Donald Trump has tapped to lead the Education Department once compared her work in education reform to a biblical battleground where she wants to "advance God's Kingdom."

 

This could mean big changes for education in America!  Interesting times ahead?!

[AlimOzturk]

Can see American regressing once more to this religion.

 

How a developed country can still hold onto such beliefs the way they do is fascinating and baffling at the same time.