Christianity

[Jambo 4 Ever]

http://www.enterhisrest.org/testimonies/holy_ann.pdf

 

Anyone heard of this Saint?

 

Quite an interesting read, but not sure what to make of it

[Boris]

http://www.enterhisrest.org/testimonies/holy_ann.pdf

 

Anyone heard of this Saint?

 

Quite an interesting read, but not sure what to make of it

 

Given she seems to be a Methodist, I doubt she has been cannonised by The Pope.  In fact, given her Protestantism, it seems ironic in your link she is venerated as a Saint.

 

https://irishmethodistgenealogy.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/ann-preston-holy-ann-1810-1906/

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Given she seems to be a Methodist, I doubt she has been cannonised by The Pope.  In fact, given her Protestantism, it seems ironic in your link she is venerated as a Saint.

 

https://irishmethodistgenealogy.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/ann-preston-holy-ann-1810-1906/

Fair point...

 

interesting quote:

"She died in Toronto on 21st June 1906 at the advanced age of 96. On the following Sunday the Mayor of that great city said ?I have had two honours this week. It has been my privilege to have an interview with the President of the United States. This is a great honour. Then I have been a pall-bearer to ?Holy Ann.? Of the two honours I prize the latter most.?

[Norm]

There's only one Saint Ann and it isn't some wee Irish wifey.

[i8hibsh]

The steps on becoming a 'Saint' are so laughable.  It really is just a name to make disgusting human beings like Mother Teresa sound good.

 

Miracles

 

 

I am calling bullshit on that one.

[Governor Tarkin]

To me it has always been bizarre that Christianity is based on the Belief in God, rather than just the peace and love message.

With the benefit of a historical perspective I don't find it bizarre in the slightest, only incredibly unfortunate.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Can you still go to heaven if you do bad stuff, but believe in God?

[i8hibsh]

Can you still go to heaven if you do bad stuff, but believe in God?

 

 

Jesus forgives all, even serial killers, rapists and paedophiles.  Just not homosexuals.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Jesus forgives all, even serial killers, rapists and paedophiles.  Just not homosexuals.

So are you saying that if a gay guy who has done a lot of work for charity etc, and never committed a crime, etc would not go to Heaven..... but someone who believes in God, etc, and has murdered someone or raped someone, WOULD go to Heaven?

[i8hibsh]

So are you saying that if a gay guy who has done a lot of work for charity etc, and never committed a crime, etc would not go to Heaven..... but someone who believes in God, etc, and has murdered someone or raped someone, WOULD go to Heaven?

 

 

Yup God hates Gays.

[Governor Tarkin]

Can you still go to heaven if you do bad stuff, but believe in God?

James Hogg wrote a cracking book which deals with a similar topic.

I'd suggest you read it.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

James Hogg wrote a cracking book which deals with a similar topic.

I'd suggest you read it.

What's the book called?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

So are you saying that if a gay guy who has done a lot of work for charity etc, and never committed a crime, etc would not go to Heaven..... but someone who believes in God, etc, and has murdered someone or raped someone, WOULD go to Heaven?

 

Ignore I8 -- he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, as usual.

 

There is no tenant of Christianity more central than forgiveness.  For the parts of the church that think homosexuality is a sin (which is by no means all churches -- certainly not mine), it's a sin just like any other.  If you repent of it you are forgiven.  This is why evangelical churches will happily say they welcome gay people as long as they're committed to deciding not to be gay.  (Which is of course impossible, but they don't want to hear that.)  It's people being proudly and unapologetically gay that drives them nuts.

[i8hibsh]

Ignore I8 -- he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, as usual.

 

There is no tenant of Christianity more central than forgiveness.  For the parts of the church that think homosexuality is a sin (which is by no means all churches -- certainly not mine), it's a sin just like any other.  If you repent of it you are forgiven.  This is why evangelical churches will happily say they welcome gay people as long as they're committed to deciding not to be gay.  (Which is of course impossible, but they don't want to hear that.)  It's people being proudly and unapologetically gay that drives them nuts.

 

 

The Bible hates gays.  Christianity and it's vile little brother Islam utterly despise homosexuality and think it is wrong.  How can you refute this UA? It is FACT.

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Ignore I8 -- he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, as usual.

 

There is no tenant of Christianity more central than forgiveness.  For the parts of the church that think homosexuality is a sin (which is by no means all churches -- certainly not mine), it's a sin just like any other.  If you repent of it you are forgiven.  This is why evangelical churches will happily say they welcome gay people as long as they're committed to deciding not to be gay.  (Which is of course impossible, but they don't want to hear that.)  It's people being proudly and unapologetically gay that drives them nuts.

Ah ok....

 

~As a Christian, What would your answer be to evangelical church people who are against gay people? (are there any parts of the bible that suggest being gay is ok? 

[i8hibsh]

It is as simple as this................if you think and believe that homosexuality is in any way a sin then you are NOT a very nice person.  I simply can't stress this enough.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The Bible hates gays.  Christianity and it's vile little brother Islam utterly despise homosexuality and think it is wrong.  How can you refute this UA? It is FACT.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=biblical+case+for+homosexuality

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Ah ok....

 

~As a Christian, What would your answer be to evangelical church people who are against gay people? (are there any parts of the bible that suggest being gay is ok? 

 

There are over 30k verses in the canonical Christian Bible.  Exactly six of them directly address homosexuality.  One set of them comes in the really, really weird story of Sodom, which before Thomas Aquinas and his weird obsession with sex (he's also against blowjobs, birth control, and masturbation, FWIW) was widely understood to be a story about hospitality, not gay sex. (see *** section below) Two of them are in Leviticus, in the same section that prohibits haircuts, tattoos, make-up, and cotton-poly blend shirts.  And the last one is in Romans 1, in the middle of a long list of things that Paul is annoyed at Rome about, before he immediately continues on and says, "Therefore you have no excuse when you judge, whoever you are."

 

Homosexuality was well known at the time of Jesus, but Jesus never mentions it in the Gospels.  Instead, he repeatedly chastised people who got hung up on minor bits of law, and repeatedly emphasized loving God, loving ones neighbor, and forgiving ones enemies.  The Bible has far, far more to say about being hospitable to foreigners when they're in your land, providing for those in need, and sharing what you have with your community.

 

In terms of positive references to homosexuality, a lot of people point and wonder at the relationship between David and Jonathan, which 2 Samuel 1:26 includes this from David: "greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."  (This is far from the only passionate statement about the two of them.)  Now I'm not so gutter-minded as to think this also couldn't be about two extremely close friends, but the story very clearly celebrates a deep, strong, long-lasting partnership between two men.  The partnership between Naomi and Ruth, while also not sexual, is also a story of two women binding their lives together.

 

Many Christians disagree with me on this, but even if a church can't bring itself to say it's okay to be gay, the notion that homosexuality is one of the most important things the Bible talks about is utter nonsense IMO.

 

 

*** Seriously, the story of Sodom goes like this: Angels (literally translated: messengers from God) visit Abraham and say they're going to burn Sodom and kill everyone in it.  Abraham says, hang on, what if there are 50 good people there? The angels say okay, find us 50 good people and we won't burn it. So Abraham says, well, if you'll do 50, how about 30? The angels say, okay fine.  Abraham keeps doing this until it's down to 10.  They go to visit, and find Abraham's nephew Lot there.  A crowd of people show up at his door and say, "send the strangers out, we want to gang butt-rape them," and Lot goes outside and says, "stop being dicks, here, I'll let you have sex with my daughters instead." (Literally, he says this.)  They then start attacking Lot and our plucky heroes inside pull him back in through the window.  So the angels say, let's GTFO of here, and tell everyone not to look back as fire rains down on the city.  But Lot's wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt.  So they go and camp in the wilderness and Lot's daughters are annoyed because they have no one to marry, so they get their father passed-out drunk and rape him in his sleep to get themselves pregnant, in accordance with the Lord's will.

 

Now, when you read that story, is the moral you get from it, "don't be gay?"

[i8hibsh]

Leviticus 20:13

[i8hibsh]

The Book of bullshit and hate (Koran and Bible) do not like many things namely Jews and gays. The fact that it even has so many references to homosexuality shows just how much it matters to them. The two most hate filled vile pieces of literature the world can ever read. "The Good Book" aye ok then. They make Mein Kampf look like Harry Potter ffs.

[i8hibsh]

The cherry picking that is carried out daily by Muslims and Christians when they try defend their books of bullshit

 

 

It is like a mother of a seril killer who will say yeah but he was nice to me.

 

Religion is the greatest show on Earth. It blows my mind. Filled with scam artists like Mother Teresa.

 

Bravo I guess. Bravo.

[Irufushi]

What's the book called?

Seriously, every ****ing time. Google it.

[Boris]

What's the book called?

 

 

Seriously, every ******* time. Google it.

 

[Gizmo]

There are over 30k verses in the canonical Christian Bible.  Exactly six of them directly address homosexuality.  One set of them comes in the really, really weird story of Sodom, which before Thomas Aquinas and his weird obsession with sex (he's also against blowjobs, birth control, and masturbation, FWIW) was widely understood to be a story about hospitality, not gay sex. (see *** section below) Two of them are in Leviticus, in the same section that prohibits haircuts, tattoos, make-up, and cotton-poly blend shirts.  And the last one is in Romans 1, in the middle of a long list of things that Paul is annoyed at Rome about, before he immediately continues on and says, "Therefore you have no excuse when you judge, whoever you are."

 

Homosexuality was well known at the time of Jesus, but Jesus never mentions it in the Gospels.  Instead, he repeatedly chastised people who got hung up on minor bits of law, and repeatedly emphasized loving God, loving ones neighbor, and forgiving ones enemies.  The Bible has far, far more to say about being hospitable to foreigners when they're in your land, providing for those in need, and sharing what you have with your community.

 

In terms of positive references to homosexuality, a lot of people point and wonder at the relationship between David and Jonathan, which 2 Samuel 1:26 includes this from David: "greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."  (This is far from the only passionate statement about the two of them.)  Now I'm not so gutter-minded as to think this also couldn't be about two extremely close friends, but the story very clearly celebrates a deep, strong, long-lasting partnership between two men.  The partnership between Naomi and Ruth, while also not sexual, is also a story of two women binding their lives together.

 

Many Christians disagree with me on this, but even if a church can't bring itself to say it's okay to be gay, the notion that homosexuality is one of the most important things the Bible talks about is utter nonsense IMO.

 

 

*** Seriously, the story of Sodom goes like this: Angels (literally translated: messengers from God) visit Abraham and say they're going to burn Sodom and kill everyone in it.  Abraham says, hang on, what if there are 50 good people there? The angels say okay, find us 50 good people and we won't burn it. So Abraham says, well, if you'll do 50, how about 30? The angels say, okay fine.  Abraham keeps doing this until it's down to 10.  They go to visit, and find Abraham's nephew Lot there.  A crowd of people show up at his door and say, "send the strangers out, we want to gang butt-rape them," and Lot goes outside and says, "stop being dicks, here, I'll let you have sex with my daughters instead." (Literally, he says this.)  They then start attacking Lot and our plucky heroes inside pull him back in through the window.  So the angels say, let's GTFO of here, and tell everyone not to look back as fire rains down on the city.  But Lot's wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt.  So they go and camp in the wilderness and Lot's daughters are annoyed because they have no one to marry, so they get their father passed-out drunk and rape him in his sleep to get themselves pregnant, in accordance with the Lord's will.

 

Now, when you read that story, is the moral you get from it, "don't be gay?"

I rather fear for any morality whatsoever that is derived from that tale. Indeed, surely anyone of sane mind who reads this must question the validity of any religion based upon this and other such bizarre writings?

[Pennywise]

Just ordered this off Amazon on the back of this thread, looks like something I would be interested in.

 

Cheers!

[By The Light..]

Should be ridiculed and hated just as much as other religious fantasies in a free civilisation.

Is it, in your experience Kickbackers?

Went to Rome recently. Toured the Coloesseum first, built by a 'Pagans' 80 years BC using slave labour from wars. It and other structures in ancient Rome were plundered by barbarians and then by 'Christians' to build churches and the Vatican. Pagans were so called by Christains as they had lots of gods as opposed to one.

 

Really is a lot of pish as when I toured the Vatican they spoke about the 7 day creation of the world but never mentioned HMFC.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I rather fear for any morality whatsoever that is derived from that tale. Indeed, surely anyone of sane mind who reads this must question the validity of any religion based upon this and other such bizarre writings?

 

There's a lot of weird stories in the Bible, but it's got to be one of the weirdest.  And really, except among really extreme sects of Christianity and people like I8 who don't actually pay close attention***, the Genesis and Leviticus passages aren't the problematic ones -- it's pretty canonical that the Old Testament is the "old law" and that the New Testament is the "new law" brought by Jesus which supersedes the old one.  So they get much more worked up about Romans 1.

 

*** Because if you don't pay close attention, you do hilariously stupid things like this:

 

[Governor Tarkin]

Just ordered this off Amazon on the back of this thread, looks like something I would be interested in.

 

Cheers!

Nice one.

 

Enjoy

[Jambo 4 Ever]

 

I never knew this wasn't the always the case anyway?!

[felix]

The Holocaust was a Nazi attrocity - not a direct Christianity or Islam thing - i8 is incorrect in listing it imo.

 

Hitler noted in Mein Kampf that exterminating the Jews was: - doing God's work !?

[i8hibsh]

How can exterminating 6 million jews purely because of what religion they were not be religiously motivated acts?

[Harry Potter]

Will miss church today as im working.

[jake]

How can exterminating 6 million jews purely because of what religion they were not be religiously motivated acts?

 

It was racially motivated.

Hitlers nazi party was about purity of the aryan race.

[i8hibsh]

It was racially motivated.

Hitlers nazi party was about purity of the aryan race.

I know, but was the Jewish thing just co-oncidence? Of course religion was a big part of WW2.

[jake]

I know, but was the Jewish thing just co-oncidence? Of course religion was a big part of WW2.

 

The jews were categorised as a race were they not ?

In what way was religion a big part of ww2?

[i8hibsh]

The jews were categorised as a race were they not ?

In what way was religion a big part of ww2?

Is Judaism a religion. Yes or no?

[Jam Tarts 1874]

I know, but was the Jewish thing just co-oncidence? Of course religion was a big part of WW2.

 

Your attempts to rewrite history are pathetic.

 

Hitler and his followers were not Christian and their genocide was nothing to do with religion.  Go and get yourself some education!

[Jam Tarts 1874]

How can exterminating 6 million jews purely because of what religion they were not be religiously motivated acts?

 

The Jews were not exterminated because of their religion - what school did you go to?!!

[jake]

Is Judaism a religion. Yes or no?

Yes.

That doesn't deter from the fact that the nazis profiled them as sub human in racial terms.

[jake]

What i will concede I8 is that Christian religious establishments colluded with the nazis.

Also that everyday christians also colluded and took part in the persecution.

So you do have a point.

I suppose if it was so easy to identify jews as a race then the wearing of stars wouldn't have been needed.

But Nazi germany was a political ideology.

[AlimOzturk]

He didn't command billions, his stories written years after his death were used by powerful organisations to control the masses. His actual life had little impact beyond a few and he was crucified. That would have been the end of that but the elevation of him and his impact came long after because it suited the agenda of others.

 

The fact remains, there is no God so it logically follows there is no son of God, just a mentally ill man.

A bit like William Wallace. Nobody bar maybe historians really knew about him until Holywood decided to make a movie about his life. Like the story of Jesus they rather bummed him up and got all the the facts twisted and ignored the true hero of the story, Andrew Moray.

 

There is a point to to the above but I am losing my train of thought

[jake]

A bit like William Wallace. Nobody bar maybe historians really knew about him until Holywood decided to make a movie about his life. Like the story of Jesus they rather bummed him up and got all the the facts twisted and ignored the true hero of the story, Andrew Moray.

 

There is a point to to the above but I am losing my train of thought

 

Lol at last sentence.

[i8hibsh]

Hi, I have just exterminated 6 million Jews. But I want it to be known it had NOTHING to do with religion.

 

[Maple Leaf]

The Jews were not exterminated because of their religion - what school did you go to?!!

I'm always ready to have my education completed, so please help me out.

 

If six million Jews weren't murdered because they were Jews, why were they murdered?

 

PS.  I went to the Royal High School.

[i8hibsh]

I'm always ready to have my education completed, so please help me out.

 

If six million Jews weren't murdered because they were Jews, why were they murdered?

 

PS.  I went to the Royal High School.

A well educated man it seems as I also went to that school.

[AlimOzturk]

I'm always ready to have my education completed, so please help me out.

 

If six million Jews weren't murdered because they were Jews, why were they murdered?

 

PS. I went to the Royal High School.

Hitlers hatred of Jewish people had nothing to do with religion. He even says in Mein Kampf that he first considered Austrian Jews to be normal, ordinary people with a different religion and he had no objections to their beliefs. He became anti-Semitic when he decided the Jews were a different and alien race from the German people. Like KKK view black people. He imagined the German people were the one true "ayran" race and the Jews were the racial enemy. He also believed the Jews were in a secret conspiracy to take the world be using both international banking and communism (the fact international banking and communism are bitter enemies seemed to escape him). He may have got this idea from a fairly large number of Russian Jews who had supported communities movements. The Tsarist regime persecuted Jews and they clearly wanted a change. So many Jews fell for this but in reality the number was still in the minority. Nevertheless this enraged Hitler.

 

Hitler himself was born and raised as a Catholic. He didn't take Christianity particularly seriously. Although he would introduce Christian flourishes into his speeches to pander to his Christian constituency. But he was determained to bring both protosent and Catholic churches under the control of his racist state and never bothered taking communion or going to confession. It was race that Hitler was obsessed about and everything I have read and learnt about Hitler tell me he he never cared less what someone religion beliefs where.

 

The Jews couldn't save themselves by renouncing their religion under Nazi rule. The Nazis still considered them racially Jewish and alien to the Aryan race. Even the Jews who fought for Germany throughout WW1, Jews who had converted to Christianity, Jewish babies and mothers. Hitler wanted them all dead.

[Maple Leaf]

Hitlers hatred of Jewish people had nothing to do with religion. He even says in Mein Kampf that he first considered Austrian Jews to be normal, ordinary people with a different religion and he had no objections to their beliefs. He became anti-Semitic when he decided the Jews were a different and alien race from the German people. Like KKK view black people. He imagined the German people were the one true "ayran" race and the Jews were the racial enemy. He also believed the Jews were in a secret conspiracy to take the world be using both international banking and communism (the fact international banking and communism are bitter enemies seemed to escape him). He may have got this idea from a fairly large number of Russian Jews who had supported communities movements. The Tsarist regime persecuted Jews and they clearly wanted a change. So many Jews fell for this but in reality the number was still in the minority. Nevertheless this enraged Hitler.

 

Hitler himself was born and raised as a Catholic. He didn't take Christianity particularly seriously. Although he would introduce Christian flourishes into his speeches to pander to his Christian constituency. But he was determained to bring both protosent and Catholic churches under the control of his racist state and never bothered taking communion or going to confession. It was race that Hitler was obsessed about and everything I have read and learnt about Hitler tell me he he never cared less what someone religion beliefs where.

 

The Jews couldn't save themselves by renouncing their religion under Nazi rule. The Nazis still considered them racially Jewish and alien to the Aryan race. Even the Jews who fought for Germany throughout WW1, Jews who had converted to Christianity, Jewish babies and mothers. Hitler wanted them all dead.

Thanks for your perspective.

 

Judaism is a religion.  Those who practice Judaism are Jews.  Therefore it is religion that defines who is a Jew.  Hitler, and others like him, can slice and dice it any way they want, but to define Judaism as a race is absurd. Race is a vague concept at best, and refers mainly to physical characteristics, not beliefs. I agree that Hitler regarded the Aryans as superior to other people, but race wasn't the only prism he viewed the world through.  He was certainly quick to ally himself with the Japanese, a different 'race' from the Aryans for sure.  And, as you rightly pointed out, he also hated communists, and they are certainly not a different race.

 

Hatred toward Jews was widespread in Europe for centuries (they're Christ killers!), and was alive and well in Germany in the 1930s.  Nevertheless, the Germans were Christian and basically a moral people, and Hitler would never have got the population to agree to slaughter millions of innocents simply because of their religion.  But if you can convince people that those others are inferior human beings, no better than animals, it's much easier for genocide to occur, especially if the inferior ones can be also cast as a threat.

 

Hitler successfully combined the innate antisemitism in Germany with the idea that Jews were dangerous and undeserving of being treated as humans, resulting in a Christian population murdering every Jew who was unfortunate enough to fall into their hands.  It's likely that many Germans were convinced that murdering Christ killers was doing God's work.

[AlimOzturk]

Of course Judaism is a religion but religion doesn't define a whole community of people does It? There are more to Jews than just Judaism and it is these other traits that they were showing during Hitlers rise that caused his hatred.

 

1 - Hitler was convinced Jews were responsible for the great depression in Germany. He needed a scapegoat and probably used his hatred of Jews to rile German people who were the brink of financial collapse.

 

2- Jews were very good business people and many held high positions within the financial sector. While a Hitler was struggling financially during his failed artist venture he envied Jews power and success. (Mein Kampf)

 

3- As stated before he despised communism and the fact communism is based apon Jewish philosophers Karl Marx work didn't help stem his hatred. He secretly thought Jews were planning world domination.

 

4- according to Hitler he Believed Jews were responsible for the loss off WW1. it is rumoured he received severe head injuries from one of his own soldiers during a fight who was Jewish. Causing him to be medically discharged.

 

None of the above points towards religion. Of course Jews are a religious people but so are Christians, Muslims ect and we wouldn't define these people solely on their religion. Hitler and the Nazis hated what Jews represented in Germany, their power, their intellect, their industry and community.

 

Ill say it again. If Jews had renounced their religion Hitler still would have wanted them dead.

[Ray Gin]

Hitler didn't care if you were a white jew, black jew, middle eastern jew or otherwise. If you practiced Judaism he wanted you dead.

[AlimOzturk]

Hitler didn't care if you were a white jew, black jew, middle eastern jew or otherwise. If you practiced Judaism he wanted you dead.

Nazis wanted everyone dead who wasn't seen as part of the "Ayran" race. Hitler used Jews as scapegoats to give the German people someone to blame and hate for all their problems. He had to rile the German people into action and he used his and the growing hatred of Jews to do this. Religion had nothing to with it.