Footballfirst Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 How was Pallardo? Quiet apart from the half hour we were on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewis2006 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Really have to ask if Jack Ross is the right man to motivate these players? Ok the results don't matter but sounds like there are major problems with defending and desire Jack Ross is highly thought of within scottish football and at Hearts. I'll judge against questioning his position after losing a few kick about matches on a Monday night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groot Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 FTFY I'm a jinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Other teams wanting it more is something that shouldnt be happening. That said our clear strategy this season is to gain promotion. That over rides everything else including u20s and cup ties (yes even the big cup). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We_are_the_Hearts Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Jack Ross is highly thought of within scottish football and at Hearts. I'll judge against questioning his position after losing a few kick about matches on a Monday night These kick about matches are the next step to the first team, I would expect desire from the u13s every game. He has worked with them long enough to get more out of them in my opinion. Terry Butcher was highly thought of in Scottish football, means **** all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzoboy Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 How was Pallardo? Not great tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panagiotis Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Jack Ross is being groomed by Levein to be our new Head Coach. Looking forward to the seethe from everyone on here who has written him off. Personally I'm very intrigued to see how it pans out. He certainly seems an interesting guy. Here's an interview with him and the Dutch guy who is following us this season. http://jorisvandewier.nl/jack-ross/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 These games aren't about results they are about developing our players and getting them playing the system Robbie wants wether your winning or losing youve still got to play football with passion and belief. That's a basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the geezer Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 We have at least 4 players under 20 who would add to this team either on loan or with 1st team - not all teams promote like Hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 youve still got to play football with passion and belief. That's a basic. The most over used excuse in football is players not showing 'passion and belief' Most of the time it is because they have not been good enough as players and not because they have not given effort or commitment. The youth system is in the midst of great change, the fruits of which will not be seen for a few years. I hardly think judging a coach's ability at that level based on results only will give a true or overall picture never mind a coach who just joined in the summer. I think I'll give both players and coach time and then see the quality and number of players we see breaking through to the first team for that is the 'success' judgement of a coach at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 The most over used excuse in football is players not showing 'passion and belief' Most of the time it is because they have not been good enough as players and not because they have not given effort or commitment. The youth system is in the midst of great change, the fruits of which will not be seen for a few years. I hardly think judging a coach's ability at that level based on results only will give a true or overall picture never mind a coach who just joined in the summer. I think I'll give both players and coach time and then see the quality and number of players we see breaking through to the first team for that is the 'success' judgement of a coach at that level. Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo-rocker Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I've been under the assumption that we supposed to be replicating the same system for the u20s as the first team. It just strikes me that although we may be short of them at youth level, we don't play two out and out wingers on the flanks for most games, heck even at full back (McHattie or Eckersley yet, but Liam Smith whenever I've seen him hasn't looked that adventurous), making our teamsheet look a bit narrow at times. Our strength in the first team this season has arugably came from our width; I don't see anywhere near that same look of width on the teamsheet in most u20 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 A good youth team that wins a lot of games etc doesn't always pan out that you'll have a successful first team Just ask hibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the geezer Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I've been under the assumption that we supposed to be replicating the same system for the u20s as the first team. It just strikes me that although we may be short of them at youth level, we don't play two out and out wingers on the flanks for most games, heck even at full back (McHattie or Eckersley yet, but Liam Smith whenever I've seen him hasn't looked that adventurous), making our teamsheet look a bit narrow at times. Our strength in the first team this season has arugably came from our width; I don't see anywhere near that same look of width on the teamsheet in most u20 matches. Certainly mchattie and Flanagan are wide players and brith can play there . Liam Gordon ain't a FB.. I really don't think playing at Newton grange helps - in fact a shambles for this level and our next generation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The most over used excuse in football is players not showing 'passion and belief' Most of the time it is because they have not been good enough as players and not because they have not given effort or commitment. The youth system is in the midst of great change, the fruits of which will not be seen for a few years. I hardly think judging a coach's ability at that level based on results only will give a true or overall picture never mind a coach who just joined in the summer. I think I'll give both players and coach time and then see the quality and number of players we see breaking through to the first team for that is the 'success' judgement of a coach at that level. really? So, you think not giving enough physical input is acceptable(if this doesn't happen) and everything else works by just going through the motions and stroking a ball about? The "modern" fan is obsessed with tactics, passing etc.... But nothing works without proper physical and mental input. It's all got to come together as one. Of course you need a proper coaching structure to develop players but nothing will ever change in respect of application and willingness. There's plenty "nice" players out there who look good passing a ball but ultimately don't show the right mentality to be a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldbore Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 debut 4 could not agree more ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,results mean nothing in this league its for devolopement only and keeping players not in the the 1st team fresh and ready to step up but if they see playing for the 20s as a punishment and dont give their all then they will never make the 1st team So as long as the first team is doing the business i doubt anyone high up at hearts will give a $%%%^ and neither should we lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 really? So, you think not giving enough physical input is acceptable(if this doesn't happen) and everything else works by just going through the motions and stroking a ball about? The "modern" fan is obsessed with tactics, passing etc.... But nothing works without proper physical and mental input. It's all got to come together as one. Of course you need a proper coaching structure to develop players but nothing will ever change in respect of application and willingness. There's plenty "nice" players out there who look good passing a ball but ultimately don't show the right mentality to be a success. Perhaps if you read the posts it might help never mind making statements that were not even in the post.....perhaps you could point out in said post where there was a mention of 'not giving effort as acceptable'......you won't be able to of course but still do try for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Thomson Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I thought Pallardo was very poor!!! Robinson had a good game in my opinion!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Moss Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The issue with playing so many 'reserves' is that most of them are using it on the way back from injury or to get some match fitness. The last thing they want is an injury in a development match and miss another few weeks (Carrick). Many will see it as an extension of training. The development matches allow us to try a few combinations and see what works in a match scenario (Buaben at CB a few weeks ago, which was actually used when Wilson went off v Alloa). Results don't matter, other than being slightly demoralising for the younger players who are trying to prove they are ready for the step up. Throwing away leads in a game like this isn't something that should be applauded but it's a learning experience and there will be positives to take from it (Flanagan getting a goal). As long as the bigger picture of player development is still the focus then I am right behind the current regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboMc Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It's a bit of tricky situation because ideally you would have a fairly settled 20's side but they are giving first teamer's (over 20's) game time to keep them match fit. There's not going to be a settled team all season but you would expect that guys playing in these games would be trying to impress enough to stake a claim for a first team berth. Guys like Brad McKay seems to have gone backwards this season and doesnt look anywhere near good enough to take the place of Wilson, Ozturk or Jordan McGhee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldbore Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 surely by playing more over 20s than most they should be better ? but dont stress its all about developement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the geezer Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 surely by playing more over 20s than most they should be better ? but dont stress its all about developement Yes I agree we should see better results playing 4/5 over age players I would be interested in FF's thoughts on this years results and performances From my view it seems there is no pattern to their play in comparison to last year and beyond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Yes I agree we should see better results playing 4/5 over age players I would be interested in FF's thoughts on this years results and performances From my view it seems there is no pattern to their play in comparison to last year and beyond I expressed my disappointment with performances this season following the St Mirren game, mainly because we fielded an experienced side against a team of all U20s and were clearly second best on the night. But that has been the pattern for most of the season. http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/145317-next-u20-home-game-v-st-mirren/page__st__50#entry4482150 I commented then that there was a lack of fluency in their play when compared to previous seasons, but last season wasn't any better, although at least then you could use the "inexperience" card. We seem unable to retain possession and dominate teams the way we did previously. There are a number of reasons you can put up for the inconsistency of this season: Inconsistency of selections Players played out of position Individual mistakes Players not as good as in previous years Top young players already in the first team Five players out on loan Players playing within themselves. I can accept most of the above, but I can only accept the last one when a player is returning after injury. We have been out worked by most opposing teams this season, particularly in closing teams down and generally in the pace and support of our attacks going forward. I know that there are many who will argue that the Development League means nothing, but it is a competitive league and the first such experience for the younger guys. Tell that to Hamilton, when they are sitting top of the premiership and second in the Development League. I'm certain that had we been sitting second in the Development League there would be no need to be reflecting on previous performances. The first team shows all the confidence that goes with a winning team and a winning mentality, while the Development squad is showing the all the traits of a losing mentality, which is difficult to reverse. For the senior guys, it might seem like a step down and they don't want to be there, but they are letting themselves down as well as the club if they aren't prepared to give 100% in every game. I don't exempt some of the younger players from that criticism either. Sometimes it is necessary to play out of your favoured position, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for not applying yourself to the task. It will be interesting to see how they perform as a purely U20 side in the youth cup this year. We fully committed to it last season by calling in the first team guys when required and it paid off by getting to the final. I can't really see us doing the same this season by calling on McGhee, Nicholson and Oliver who would all be eligible to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Jack Ross is being groomed by Levein to be our new Head Coach. Looking forward to the seethe from everyone on here who has written him off. Personally I'm very intrigued to see how it pans out. He certainly seems an interesting guy. Here's an interview with him and the Dutch guy who is following us this season. http://jorisvandewier.nl/jack-ross/ IIRC Mr Neilson's results with the youth team last season were poor, although admittedly most of our young team were in the first team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I expressed my disappointment with performances this season following the St Mirren game, mainly because we fielded an experienced side against a team of all U20s and were clearly second best on the night. But that has been the pattern for most of the season. http://www.hmfckickb...50#entry4482150 I commented then that there was a lack of fluency in their play when compared to previous seasons, but last season wasn't any better, although at least then you could use the "inexperience" card. We seem unable to retain possession and dominate teams the way we did previously. There are a number of reasons you can put up for the inconsistency of this season: Inconsistency of selections Players played out of position Individual mistakes Players not as good as in previous years Top young players already in the first team Five players out on loan Players playing within themselves. I can accept most of the above, but I can only accept the last one when a player is returning after injury. We have been out worked by most opposing teams this season, particularly in closing teams down and generally in the pace and support of our attacks going forward. I know that there are many who will argue that the Development League means nothing, but it is a competitive league and the first such experience for the younger guys. Tell that to Hamilton, when they are sitting top of the premiership and second in the Development League. I'm certain that had we been sitting second in the Development League there would be no need to be reflecting on previous performances. The first team shows all the confidence that goes with a winning team and a winning mentality, while the Development squad is showing the all the traits of a losing mentality, which is difficult to reverse. For the senior guys, it might seem like a step down and they don't want to be there, but they are letting themselves down as well as the club if they aren't prepared to give 100% in every game. I don't exempt some of the younger players from that criticism either. Sometimes it is necessary to play out of your favoured position, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for not applying yourself to the task. It will be interesting to see how they perform as a purely U20 side in the youth cup this year. We fully committed to it last season by calling in the first team guys when required and it paid off by getting to the final. I can't really see us doing the same this season by calling on McGhee, Nicholson and Oliver who would all be eligible to play. FF, how many of our young first teamers do you think would still be in the development squad if we hadn't been forced to promote prematurely over the last couple of years? Also, which of our young players do you think have the potential to match Nicholson, Holt, Walker, Paterson, McGhee, Carrick etc any time soon? I keep hearing good notices about Beith and Roy. Might it be an idea to get them involved with the first team a bit more? Sorry to go hammering you with questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungry hippo Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 IIRC Mr Neilson's results with the youth team last season were poor, although admittedly most of our young team were in the first team. Average age of the 20s team last year was about 10 years younger (slight exaggeration) so it was near impossible task last year in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the geezer Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I expressed my disappointment with performances this season following the St Mirren game, mainly because we fielded an experienced side against a team of all U20s and were clearly second best on the night. But that has been the pattern for most of the season. http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/145317-next-u20-home-game-v-st-mirren/page__st__50#entry4482150 I commented then that there was a lack of fluency in their play when compared to previous seasons, but last season wasn't any better, although at least then you could use the "inexperience" card. We seem unable to retain possession and dominate teams the way we did previously. There are a number of reasons you can put up for the inconsistency of this season: Inconsistency of selections Players played out of position Individual mistakes Players not as good as in previous years Top young players already in the first team Five players out on loan Players playing within themselves. I can accept most of the above, but I can only accept the last one when a player is returning after injury. We have been out worked by most opposing teams this season, particularly in closing teams down and generally in the pace and support of our attacks going forward. I know that there are many who will argue that the Development League means nothing, but it is a competitive league and the first such experience for the younger guys. Tell that to Hamilton, when they are sitting top of the premiership and second in the Development League. I'm certain that had we been sitting second in the Development League there would be no need to be reflecting on previous performances. The first team shows all the confidence that goes with a winning team and a winning mentality, while the Development squad is showing the all the traits of a losing mentality, which is difficult to reverse. For the senior guys, it might seem like a step down and they don't want to be there, but they are letting themselves down as well as the club if they aren't prepared to give 100% in every game. I don't exempt some of the younger players from that criticism either. Sometimes it is necessary to play out of your favoured position, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for not applying yourself to the task. It will be interesting to see how they perform as a purely U20 side in the youth cup this year. We fully committed to it last season by calling in the first team guys when required and it paid off by getting to the final. I can't really see us doing the same this season by calling on McGhee, Nicholson and Oliver who would all be eligible to play. Great update FF and from the theme of your comments the current under 20 bunch have some issues when asked to play out with position. For me it's holding them back as I would have expected another 1 or 2 to start knocking the door but maybe it's a bit too early Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 FF, how many of our young first teamers do you think would still be in the development squad if we hadn't been forced to promote prematurely over the last couple of years? Also, which of our young players do you think have the potential to match Nicholson, Holt, Walker, Paterson, McGhee, Carrick etc any time soon? I keep hearing good notices about Beith and Roy. Might it be an idea to get them involved with the first team a bit more? Sorry to go hammering you with questions... I'm afraid I don't have a crystal ball and I will never say that any of the youngsters won't make it. Many of them are only 16,17,18 and trying to make a future for themselves in the game on their first professional contract. I've already said previously that I think the club will have a fallow period over the next three years or so in terms of the number of players with real prospects of making it. We have gone through a period where we were forced to introduce up to 8 or 9 youngsters together and it is evident that a couple of those have failed to make the grade at Hearts, but it is impressive, all the same, that so many still appear to have a future with Hearts or elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Surely Dundee Utd are the bench mark at the moment in terms of youth coaching and bringing through youth playets to the first team. Why are folk shiteing themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I can't get worked up over this at all. If senior fringe players aren't pushing then they will go, young lads will get a chance irrespective. If all we've got to worry about is our development team then we are doing okay. Let's not forget. McGhee, Paterson & Nicholson are all young enough to play but are established first team players. Also McHattie, King, Walker & Carrick are graduates. If you take some/all of them away at the same time you are gonna find a gap. Going forwards we won't see that number in one go. It will be a graduate or two a year. Once they settle down together it will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo_ree Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Was impressed with Robinson's work rate. In our good 20 minutes, he Pallardo and Beith all looked good. McHattie's attitude was poor again. It was only at the beginning of pre-season last year that half our current first team squad was playing for the under 20s. Neilson and Levein were both there. I don't expect any who played to start on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm afraid I don't have a crystal ball and I will never say that any of the youngsters won't make it. Many of them are only 16,17,18 and trying to make a future for themselves in the game on their first professional contract. I've already said previously that I think the club will have a fallow period over the next three years or so in terms of the number of players with real prospects of making it. We have gone through a period where we were forced to introduce up to 8 or 9 youngsters together and it is evident that a couple of those have failed to make the grade at Hearts, but it is impressive, all the same, that so many still appear to have a future with Hearts or elsewhere. Cheers FF, that's fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I couldn't care less if we lose every single U-20 game this season so long as we bring a few more players along this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WASTREL Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Jack Ross is highly thought of within scottish football and at Hearts. I'll judge against questioning his position after losing a few kick about matches on a Monday night mmmm ..... these are a bit more than a kick about for most players on the park (especially our opposition). The objective is to give a competative set of league games for "reserve" team squad players. From watching the games it is our 1st team picks needing the game time that are not competing on the same level as the U20's. How much Jack Ross can influence their performance is questionable. His motivational coaching skills will be tested this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldbore Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 agreed worst players on the park have seemingly been some of our 1st team players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldbore Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 are there still trialists playing for the u20s ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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