Hibs Debt

[jambo_]

i feel sorry for them

[jambali]

Not quibbling with your figures BH, but as an philosophical discussion, do people who have a mortgage on their house ever sit there and think "Oh, I am in debt to RBS"?

 

Yup

[Guest oldcastlerock2012]

So let's get this straight:

 

An absent, disinterested owner keeping them afloat with cash injections

A puppet CEO

In debt to a bank

Spending beyond their means

A scattergun approach to making signings

A team full of loaners no-ones ever heard of

Young players not breaking through due to said loaners

A divided fanbase

Changing manager every year

An overpaid, poor quality squad

 

Sounds familiar.... (Just without the cup wins, league runs, quality footballers and derby domination)

[Thomaso]

 

So let's get this straight:

 

An absent, disinterested owner keeping them afloat with cash injections

A puppet CEO

In debt to a bank

Spending beyond their means

A scattergun approach to making signings

A team full of loaners no-ones ever heard of

Young players not breaking through due to said loaners

A divided fanbase

Changing manager every year

An overpaid, poor quality squad

 

Sounds familiar.... (Just without the cup wins, league runs, quality footballers and derby domination)

 

 

Ah big difference - we were owned by one of those dirty cheating Jonny Foreigner types.

[DETTY29]

Here's what their current debt position should be re parent company loans and mortgages, based on what was in their last published set of accounts (to July 2013).

 

They have ?1.5M recorded under ?Amounts due to Parent Company? and a separate ?250K designated as a ?Parent Company Loan?.

 

They also have three separate ?Stadium Mortgages? all of which are on variable interest rates, with outstanding amounts as follows:

1) ?2.56M repaid at ?20K a month with a lump sum of ?1.6M in Aug 2018

2) ?1.24M repaid in quarterly instalments until Oct 2023

3) ?2.5M repayable in one lump sum in July 2020

 

That is over ?8M in total with a couple of onerous single payments totalling more than ?4M due in 4 years and 6 years time, unless the loans can be rolled over.

 

In the meantime (as at Jul 2013) the club was just about keeping pace with current repayments and interest from their normal cash flow of the back of their success in getting to the Cup Final in successive seasons.

Re the parent company loans, were these in the accounts ended 2011 and 2012?

 

This might provide a trend on where Hibs are heading notably on the back of 2 successful cup runs, but also give credence to STF being a (required) lender of last resort in recent times.

[Unknown user]

Not quibbling with your figures BH, but as an philosophical discussion, do people who have a mortgage on their house ever sit there and think "Oh, I am in debt to RBS"?

Never had a mortgage then?

 

Short answer, Yes!!

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

 

 

Never had a mortgage then?

 

Short answer, Yes!!

 

Yes I have had a mortgage, but do not have one now.

 

I can honestly say that I never thought of my mortgage or car loan as a debt. I know what you are saying is pedantically correct but 'debt' suggests something you cannot afford to pay and I always could. So far. Touch wood. Fingers crossed. (Which is probably what Petrie is saying about now)

 

 

[Boris]

Yes I have had a mortgage, but do not have one now.

 

I can honestly say that I never thought of my mortgage or car loan as a debt. I know what you are saying is pedantically correct but 'debt' suggests something you cannot afford to pay and I always could. So far. Touch wood. Fingers crossed. (Which is probably what Petrie is saying about now)

 

But that's the point! As long as you can keep up repayments it's fine.

[Footballfirst]

Re the parent company loans, were these in the accounts ended 2011 and 2012?

 

This might provide a trend on where Hibs are heading notably on the back of 2 successful cup runs, but also give credence to STF being a (required) lender of last resort in recent times.

 

Both the "loan" and the "amount due" were there in 2011 and 2012. The loan was there at least as far back as 2009, but the ?1.25M only made an appearance in 2011 with no reason given that I can see from a quick scan of their accounts.

 

 

Remember the last two sets of accounts have had runs to the cup-final and early ST income included to boost their bank balance. The 2014 accounts will have a race to the bottom included.

[Thomaso]

 

 

 

Both the "loan" and the "amount due" were there in 2011 and 2012. The loan was there at least as far back as 2009, but the ?1.25M only made an appearance in 2011 with no reason given that I can see from a quick scan of their accounts.

 

 

Remember the last two sets of accounts have had runs to the cup-final and early ST income included to boost their bank balance. The 2014 accounts will have a race to the bottom included.

 

 

Could we just go TICK TOCK TICK TOCK?

 

Worked for them......

[We_are_the_Hearts]

 

 

But that's the point! As long as you can keep up repayments it's fine.

But it can restrict you improving your current quality of life, bit like the Hobos and their team

[Marvin]

Next year sponsored by Wonga?

 

Cash converters even?

 

[Unknown user]

 

 

 

Yes I have had a mortgage, but do not have one now.

 

I can honestly say that I never thought of my mortgage or car loan as a debt. I know what you are saying is pedantically correct but 'debt' suggests something you cannot afford to pay and I always could. So far. Touch wood. Fingers crossed. (Which is probably what Petrie is saying about now)

I'm not with you, what's pedantic about answering the question you posed?

 

EDIT I don't think it's pedantic to say that money you owe is debt

[Boris]

 

But it can restrict you improving your current quality of life, bit like the Hobos and their team

 

Exactly.

[Franco Fascione]

In my mind any kind of loan is debt and the definition of debt confirms this.

 

They spent so much time and energy focusing on Hearts instead of their own club. Petrie used this as a smoke screen for their own troubles and the fans lapped it up. Now it seems a few home truths are coming to light.

 

I don't hate anyone as I've stated before, however, I have absolutely no sympathy for them after all their failed interference during our administration process.

[Jambosammy]

 

In my mind any kind of loan is debt and the definition of debt confirms this.

 

They spent so much time and energy focusing on Hearts instead of their own club. Petrie used this as a smoke screen for their own troubles and the fans lapped it up. Now it seems a few home truths are coming to light.

 

I don't hate anyone as I've stated before, however, I have absolutely no sympathy for them after all their failed interference during our administration process.

totally agree, what goes around comes around. It's a great feeling waking up each day things are on the up for us and it canny get much worse for the vermin.

[RobNox]

Here's what their current debt position should be re parent company loans and mortgages, based on what was in their last published set of accounts (to July 2013).

 

They have ?1.5M recorded under ?Amounts due to Parent Company? and a separate ?250K designated as a ?Parent Company Loan?.

 

They also have three separate ?Stadium Mortgages? all of which are on variable interest rates, with outstanding amounts as follows:

1) ?2.56M repaid at ?20K a month with a lump sum of ?1.6M in Aug 2018

2) ?1.24M repaid in quarterly instalments until Oct 2023

3) ?2.5M repayable in one lump sum in July 2020

 

That is over ?8M in total with a couple of onerous single payments totalling more than ?4M due in 4 years and 6 years time, unless the loans can be rolled over.

 

In the meantime (as at Jul 2013) the club was just about keeping pace with current repayments and interest from their normal cash flow of the back of their success in getting to the Cup Final in successive seasons.

When they announced the last results they claimed they had reduced their debt to ?5.5m. So are they excluding some of the ?8m (maybe the ?2.5m lump sum payment?) or do they have balances elsewhere to offset the debt (would seem odd though)?

[scott_jambo]

What would you do if they were on the brink of going under and came to us cap in hand?

 

[kj79_hmfc]

What would you do if they were on the brink of going under and came to us cap in hand?

 

 

Hibs are one of the only rivals I'd consider helping as imagine we lost the comedy value of them being around!

[Paolo]

What would you do if they were on the brink of going under and came to us cap in hand?

 

 

After the way they behaved, I would tell them where to go. I will miss the fun, but cherish all the fun we have already had.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

What would you do if they were on the brink of going under and came to us cap in hand?

 

 

shite in the cap.

[jambo mark]

A loan is technically debt, but they have very different connotations.

[roscoeinchboy]

This is where i am at. I have stated before i have a new found hatred of them and wish them every hardship that comes their way.

away and get a shag

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

What would you do if they were on the brink of going under and came to us cap in hand?

 

 

I'd start cossack dancing on my doorstep with the smuggest look imaginable on my face.

[Diadora Van Basten]

I heard they were in discussions with East Lothian council about selling their training ground to the council as they can't afford the 0.5 million it costs them each year to run it

[Bazzas right boot]

They will be ok unless Farmer goes to the wall. This is the case with most clubs, in huge debt, financed by owners, as long as their interests are ok, the club will be ok. If their other interests start to go bad, then the club is ######. We should no this more than most.

[PumpkinJambo]

I heard they were in discussions with East Lothian council about selling their training ground to the council as they can't afford the 0.5 million it costs them each year to run it

 

Wish them luck with that, people will be up in arms if the council buy it from them when they are making cuts left right and centre to try to balance the budget so not sure landing themselves with a barn in Ormiston is going to go down well.

[broony1985]

You may find it tiresome - that's your choice. Me? I detest them after their bitter wee antics. They did all they could to shut down the Club I love, and I for one aint forgetting it! I am going to ridicule these tossers at EVERY opportunity.

 

[:shitwine:]

An attempt at poetry and optimism from bringbackdeek.net:

 

We will come back.

 

There's nothing surer.

 

And when we do.

 

Hearts will be the poorer.

 

 

Hearts weren't even 'the poorer' when we were financially on our knees

[Kiwidoug]

I heard they were in discussions with East Lothian council about selling their training ground to the council as they can't afford the 0.5 million it costs them each year to run it

 

You can't be serious. 0.5m to run that state of the art training facility. The farmer who owns the land must be laughing his heid off.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Surely someone can come up with a Pat Butcher doing gardening gif....................EL Tel is bleeding them dry!

[Gregory House M.D.]

An attempt at poetry and optimism from bringbackdeek.net:

 

 

 

 

Hearts weren't even 'the poorer' when we were financially on our knees

 

They are slavering, deluded trumpets to a man, woman and child. All they've talked about since 2009 is how "The tide will turn ken".

 

Moses couldn't effect this tide, you subordinate Lochend bellchiefs.

 

They talk like Hearts domination doesn't span every decade outwith the 40's and 70's and this utter ownership only dates back to 2010.

 

Their biggest problem is that they measure themselves against us and will never measure up.

 

 

[Alva-Jambo]

Their season sales were well down. They really needed 2-3K more punters to buy briefs. They must be geting a bit short.

[wentworth jambo]

I think it's worth remembering what's the difference between secured debt and unsecured debt. Their mortgage is to the bank and is secured on their stadium / barn - while this is debt, it's not really as the bank will never lose that money (unless in exceptional negative equity situations) - either the wee team pay their monthly mortgage payment or, failing that, the bank effectively re-possess their hoose - this leaves them with nowhere to play games, unable to fulfil fixtures, and effectively done as a club. Other unsecured debts e.g. paying the pie man, the gas bill, etc - either the wee team pay these or they eventually get chased through the courts for these - which could ultimately lead to admin if their incomings don't allow these bills to be met. Either way, reduced income means they have to cut the cloth accordingly - add in to that Uncle Rod and Uncle Tom still having wallets tighter than a nat's chuff but still agreeing contracts that see ex-managers paid for an additional year in the garden, then those outstanding debts are only go 1 way with the additional cost of servicing those debts added on top. They're in a sprial where crap results mean less money mean worse players mean even worse results and there will come a tipping point where income reduces to the level that these debts can't be serviced - it's at that point I can get out the 10 inch Havana cigar I've been saving for a special occasion

[Unknown user]

They really needed 2-3K more punters to buy briefs.

Have they all Stantoned themselves or something?

[FarmerTweedy]

Yes I have had a mortgage, but do not have one now.

 

I can honestly say that I never thought of my mortgage or car loan as a debt. I know what you are saying is pedantically correct but 'debt' suggests something you cannot afford to pay and I always could. So far. Touch wood. Fingers crossed. (Which is probably what Petrie is saying about now)

 

Seriously? What a strange viewpoint! Of course mortgages and car loans are debt. You owe the money to the lender and have to pay it back, usually with interest too. That's what debt is!!!

[Jimmy McNulty]

After how they treated us, I hope the **** die.

[Hungry hippo]

 

 

Seriously? What a strange viewpoint! Of course mortgages and car loans are debt. You owe the money to the lender and have to pay it back, usually with interest too. That's what debt is!!!

 

Absolutely. I'm finding it hard to believe that there is even a discussion on this.

 

Money owed equals debt.

[Phage]

Damn... ill be back when its time for;

 

Freedom of information requests

Writing to MPs

Placing fictionional bid for the club

Flags and flares

Tesco Easter Road banner making class

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

 

 

 

Absolutely. I'm finding it hard to believe that there is even a discussion on this.

 

Money owed equals debt.

 

Sigh...

 

I was not talking about the reality, I was talking about perception. I do not believe there are thousands of people running around, waving their hands in the air saying 'I am in DEBT to the bank to the bank to buy a house'. The people that I know say they have 'a MORTGAGE from the bank to buy a house'.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe there are people who cannot see how different it sounds.

[jambali]

... and I'm having difficulty understanding how "I owe money to the bank" does not equate to debt?

[jambali]

I do however understand the difference between "Secured" and "Unsecured" - however both are debt.

I also understand negative equity, and if that is what in some peoples mind turns mortgage into debt, then Hibs are there. Their mortgage/loans were to build the facilities which have no sell on value. The only value is in the ground they are on.

[Gregory House M.D.]

 

 

 

Sigh...

 

I was not talking about the reality, I was talking about perception. I do not believe there are thousands of people running around, waving their hands in the air saying 'I am in DEBT to the bank to the bank to buy a house'. The people that I know say they have 'a MORTGAGE from the bank to buy a house'.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe there are people who cannot see how different it sounds.

 

It does not matter what people would say. The fact is money owed is debt.

 

A mortgage is arguably one of the worst forms of debt to default on.

[Unknown user]

Sigh...

 

I was not talking about the reality, I was talking about perception. I do not believe there are thousands of people running around, waving their hands in the air saying 'I am in DEBT to the bank to the bank to buy a house'. The people that I know say they have 'a MORTGAGE from the bank to buy a house'.

 

I'm finding it hard to believe there are people who cannot see how different it sounds.

Mate, it freaks me out sometimes how much my mortgage is. I earn enough to pay it and there's no reason to think that won't continue but I'm very very aware of it!

 

But I think I get what you're trying to say now, you're talking in that every day "the bills are mounting up" kind of thing. The mortgage is there but that's like rent and gets paid anyway, it's not part of the picture of debt you're building in your mind as the credit cards mount up for example. Have I got that right?

[Thomaso]

 

 

 

It does not matter what people would say. The fact is money owed is debt.

 

A mortgage is arguably one of the worst forms of debt to default on.

 

 

Future Tesco store perchance...........Tick Tock

[SUTOL]

Mate, it freaks me out sometimes how much my mortgage is. I earn enough to pay it and there's no reason to think that won't continue but I'm very very aware of it!

 

But I think I get what you're trying to say now, you're talking in that every day "the bills are mounting up" kind of thing. The mortgage is there but that's like rent and gets paid anyway, it's not part of the picture of debt you're building in your mind as the credit cards mount up for example. Have I got that right?

 

That's my take on what he is saying. I can understand what he means.

[SUTOL]

You can't be serious. 0.5m to run that state of the art training facility. The farmer who owns the land must be laughing his heid off.

 

 

They rent their training facility as well? the ground their training facility sits on?

[SUTOL]

I think it's worth remembering what's the difference between secured debt and unsecured debt. Their mortgage is to the bank and is secured on their stadium / barn - while this is debt, it's not really as the bank will never lose that money

 

Who else will pay the ?8M plus for the stadium?

 

The bank could lose millions if they don't meet their obligations.

(Hibs)