A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones Books) [spoilers]

[Mr. T]

Thread for discussion of a series of books about a song of ice and fire.

[cosanostra]

Do we need to use spoiler tags this thread or should we just dive in?

I'll start with...

 

Where do you guys think the Benjen Stark plot line is going? Is it going anywhere or is it a dead end? GRRM said that the next book will take us even further to the North than we already have been. Is this maybe where he comes back? People have suggested that he's Coldhands but there's lots of reasons why that's unlikely to be true.

[Mr. T]

Do we need to use spoiler tags this thread or should we just dive in?

I'll start with...

 

Where do you guys think the Benjen Stark plot line is going? Is it going anywhere or is it a dead end? GRRM said that the next book will take us even further to the North than we already have been. Is this maybe where he comes back? People have suggested that he's Coldhands but there's lots of reasons why that's unlikely to be true.

 

Just dive in. If they don't get the hint from the title then it's their own fault

 

I really don't know. I wonder if maybe Bran will see him through a godswood in the far north?

 

He must have some significance or they wouldn't keep going on about him.

 

One of the things I want to know is who is Aegon Targaryen really? I'm assuming that Quaithe is referring to him when she says about the "mummer's dragon"

[cosanostra]

Just dive in. If they don't get the hint from the title then it's their own fault

 

I really don't know. I wonder if maybe Bran will see him through a godswood in the far north?

 

He must have some significance or they wouldn't keep going on about him.

 

One of the things I want to know is who is Aegon Targaryen really? I'm assuming that Quaithe is referring to him when she says about the "mummer's dragon"

 

Is that not explained in book 5? You don't think Aegon is "Young Griff" or whatever he's called.

[Caspian Primrose]

Theories on Jon Snows mother? Can we discuss that? I've got a pretty good idea of who his parents are but what I'm really interested in is how the truth actually comes to light.

[cosanostra]

Theories on Jon Snows mother? Can we discuss that? I've got a pretty good idea of who his parents are but what I'm really interested in is how the truth actually comes to light.

 

You don't think he's really Ned Stark's son? He does say that "you may not have my name but you have my blood" so it might not be him.

Ned's dead sister and Prince Rhaegar maybe?

[Mr. T]

Ned's dead sister and Prince Rhaegar maybe?

 

That's my general feeling.

 

Is that not explained in book 5? You don't think Aegon is "Young Griff" or whatever he's called.

 

I mean he isn't even Aegon, just some guy with white hair.

 

Unless Quaithe was referring to the Dornish prince as the mummer's dragon... in which case why would Daenerys need to beware, he took care of himself quite nicely.

[Caspian Primrose]

 

 

 

You don't think he's really Ned Stark's son? He does say that "you may not have my name but you have my blood" so it might not be him.

Ned's dead sister and Prince Rhaegar maybe?

 

Yes! I'm pretty certain that is the case but Ned took the secret to his grave. I can't see how GRRM can reveal it though...

 

I was watching an interview with GRRM and the producers of the TV show a while ago. When they first approached GRRM about making it he asked them one question to figure out how good a grasp on his story they had. The question was "who is Jon Snows mother?" Apparently they got it correct and proved themselves to the author. I was only starting the second book so was always trying to read between the lines regarding Jon Snows parents. Anyway I'm convinced his arse will be the last to sit on the iron throne when the books are concluded.

[cosanostra]

That's my general feeling.

 

 

 

I mean he isn't even Aegon, just some guy with white hair.

 

Unless Quaithe was referring to the Dornish prince as the mummer's dragon... in which case why would Daenerys need to beware, he took care of himself quite nicely.

 

Interesting.

The mummar being the spider, I take it?

Have to admit that it never occurred to me that Griff might be an imposter.

 

What about the fate of Brienne and Jon Snow? I can't imagine either of them dying.

[Sergei Malatov]

double

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

The Lyanna Stark-Rhagar theory re Jon Snow seems to have grown so many legs and been discussed so much Martin will probably re-think it or just not address it at all

 

He probably should have squared it off a lot earlier and avoided all the speculation.

 

He would still be baseborn so unless Aegon (if Young Griff is Aegon) dies and Jon is somehow legitimised I cant see how he would end up on the throne through succession.. only by conquering the throne then legitimising himself?

[Sergei Malatov]

Jon Snow's parents seem to pretty well accepted as being Rhaegar and and Lyanna Stark (there is a massive thread on A Forum of Ice and Fire for those who are interested).

 

The way this can be revealed is that Howland Reed (Jojen's father) was present at the Tower of Joy when Ned had his showdown with the Kingsguard in his atremot to get Lyanna back.

 

Aegon. I believe is an imposter. Possibly some plot by Varys. He has a long talk to Kevan Lannister as he lies dying about Aegon being shapped to rule, which together with Quaithe's murmmers dragon I found odd.

 

If Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar song of Ice (Stark)and fire (Targaryen) could well be referring to him and he would be a likely candidate for being the Prince who was Promised /Azhor Ahai not Stannis as Mellisandre claims.

 

[Sergei Malatov]

The Lyanna Stark-Rhagar theory re Jon Snow seems to have grown so many legs and been discussed so much Martin will probably re-think it or just not address it at all

 

He probably should have squared it off a lot earlier and avoided all the speculation.

 

He would still be baseborn so unless Aegon (if Young Griff is Aegon) dies and Jon is somehow legitimised I cant see how he would end up on the throne through succession.. only by conquering the throne then legitimising himself?

 

The theory goes that as in the past Targaryen had multiple wives. Lyanna could have in fact married Rhaegar and therefore Jon is legitimate.

[Mr. T]

Interesting.

The mummar being the spider, I take it?

Have to admit that it never occurred to me that Griff might be an imposter.

 

What about the fate of Brienne and Jon Snow? I can't imagine either of them dying.

 

mummer is an antonym for "fool"

 

So fool's dragon, as in a false dragon. There isn't an actual 'mummer'.

 

Some people have suggested that one of Illyrio Mopatis' wives had the traditional targaryen hair/eyes, though I don't remember it from when I read the books, so he could be Illyrio's son.

[cosanostra]

The way this can be revealed is that Howland Reed (Jojen's father) was present at the Tower of Joy when Ned had his showdown with the Kingsguard in his atremot to get Lyanna back.

 

Explain that part for me please.

[cosanostra]

mummer is an antonym for "fool"

 

So fool's dragon, as in a false dragon. There isn't an actual 'mummer'.

 

Some people have suggested that one of Illyrio Mopatis' wives had the traditional targaryen hair/eyes, though I don't remember it from when I read the books, so he could be Illyrio's son.

 

Are mummers not travelling performer gypsy types that earn a living doing tricks and shows? Not sure I've ever seen GRRM use the word in the context of fool.

The mummer in "mummer's dragon" could be Varis as he was a mummer before he came to Westeros.

[Mr. T]

Are mummers not travelling performer gypsy types that earn a living doing tricks and shows? Not sure I've ever seen GRRM use the word in the context of fool.

The mummer in "mummer's dragon" could be Varis as he was a mummer before he came to Westeros.

 

I was thinking more in the context that Patchface and Ser Dontos are court fools.

 

I never thought of it that way though. I suppose it all points to Aegon regardless.

[cosanostra]

I was thinking more in the context that Patchface and Ser Dontos are court fools.

 

I never thought of it that way though. I suppose it all points to Aegon regardless.

 

I don't think mummers and fools are the same thing. Varys was a member of a group of travelling mummers, one of who whom sold him to the sorcerer who castrated him.

Your theory actually makes sense now. I think you've convinced me.

 

OK, how about this. Who is the hardest character in a square go, currently alive?

I'd guess now that the red Viper and the Mountain are dead (I guess there's Robert Strong still but we don't know what he's capable of)...

 

Victarion Greyjoy.

The guy is a bad mofo.

[Sergei Malatov]

 

 

Explain that part for me please.

 

At the end of Robert's rebellion after Robert had taken King's Landing, Ned set of to find Lyanna who had been taken to the Tower of Joy in Dorne.

 

When Ned arrived he was greeted by various members of the Kingsguard. Ned amd 7 companions then engaged with a duel with the Kingsguard. After the battle Ned found Lyanna dying and her dying words were revealed to be "Promise me Ned". The only suviours of the show down were Ned and Howland Reed. Lyanna's death is never explained further.The promise is supposed to be to keep Jon's true parentage a secret.

[cosanostra]

At the end of Robert's rebellion after Robert had taken King's Landing, Ned set of to find Lyanna who had been taken to the Tower of Joy in Dorne.

 

When Ned arrived he was greeted by various members of the Kingsguard. Ned amd 7 companions then engaged with a duel with the Kingsguard. After the battle Ned found Lyanna dying and her dying words were revealed to be "Promise me Ned". The only suviours of the show down were Ned and Howland Reed. Lyanna's death is never explained further.The promise is supposed to be to keep Jon's true parentage a secret.

 

I get it now. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ortarkod]

I don't think mummers and fools are the same thing. Varys was a member of a group of travelling mummers, one of who whom sold him to the sorcerer who castrated him.

Your theory actually makes sense now. I think you've convinced me.

 

OK, how about this. Who is the hardest character in a square go, currently alive?

I'd guess now that the red Viper and the Mountain are dead (I guess there's Robert Strong still but we don't know what he's capable of)...

 

Victarion Greyjoy.

The guy is a bad mofo.

Barristan the Bold.

[cosanostra]

Barristan the Bold.

 

Maybe years ago.

At the end of book 5, Victarion would **** him up.

Areo Hotah sounds like he may be one of the hardest.

[Sergei Malatov]

Sandor Clegane if he ever stops digging graves in the quiet isle.

 

Gerold Dayne "Darkstar" known as the most dangerous man in Dorne. He must be pretty handy in a squarr go yo get that title.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

I read a theory somewhere that Jojen was actually Howland

 

Would explain why Howland who is supposedly such a staunch Stark banner man has never appeared throughout Robs March South etc

 

[Mr. T]

I'm going to say Robert Strong is the hardest guy around (he's pretty much 'the mountain' isn't he?)

 

I read a theory somewhere that Jojen was actually Howland

 

Would explain why Howland who is supposedly such a staunch Stark banner man has never appeared throughout Robs March South etc

 

I don't buy it.

 

The crannogmen prefer guerrilla warfare. the only reason he was with Ned the first time was because they were trying to "save" Lyanna who helped him during the tale of the knight of the laughing tree. At least thats how I read it.

 

If he was Howland, Maester Luwin would surely have recognised him when he came to Winterfell.

[Ortarkod]

I read a theory somewhere that Jojen was actually Howland

 

Would explain why Howland who is supposedly such a staunch Stark banner man has never appeared throughout Robs March South etc

That's up there with the 'Quentyn is alive' theories. Westeros.org really is a hellhole of a site.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

 

I'm going to say Robert Strong is the hardest guy around (he's pretty much 'the mountain' isn't he?)

 

 

 

I don't buy it.

 

The crannogmen prefer guerrilla warfare. the only reason he was with Ned the first time was because they were trying to "save" Lyanna who helped him during the tale of the knight of the laughing tree. At least thats how I read it.

 

If he was Howland, Maester Luwin would surely have recognised him when he came to Winterfell.

 

The theory is that he either transforms to look that young or has some sort of benjamin button reversal thing going on. Like many ASOIAF theories there are plenty holes in it

 

At the end of dance with dragons he is getting weaker and weaker and IIRC him and Meera are missing at the end (I'll be honest i often found Brans feast for crows and dance with dragons chapters quite dull and wasnt concentrating half the time) theres a theory that Jojen/Howland had made for the wall to tell Jon about his true parentage

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

 

 

That's up there with the 'Quentyn is alive' theories. Westeros.org really is a hellhole of a site.

 

 

Glad to see the GoT team killed the theory that jeyne westerling was swapped and is preggers with baby robb, by not having her in the show and killing her replacement

 

Talisa pregnancy was I thought I bit of a nod to the Jeyne theories

[Mr. T]

 

Glad to see the GoT team killed the theory that jeyne westerling was swapped and is preggers with baby robb, by not having her in the show and killing her replacement

 

Talisa pregnancy was I thought I bit of a nod to the Jeyne theories

 

The problem for me is that it's implied in the books that Tywin orchestrated the whole thing from the beginning to break up the alliance between the Starks and the Freys.

 

When they removed Jeyne Westerling, it removes a whole lot of Tywin's machiavellian scheming which shows he's more than just a capable commander.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

 

 

 

The problem for me is that it's implied in the books that Tywin orchestrated the whole thing from the beginning to break up the alliance between the Starks and the Freys.

 

When they removed Jeyne Westerling, it removes a whole lot of Tywin's machiavellian scheming which shows he's more than just a capable commander.

 

I dont think it was from the very beginning i.e. He didnt orchestrate theon betraying robb and "murdering" bran and rickon and Robb being injured by an arrow.. It was just him and the mother of jeyne schemed together to keep her from getting pregnant and the mum was in on the red wedding

 

[superjack]

Jon Snow's parents seem to pretty well accepted as being Rhaegar and and Lyanna Stark (there is a massive thread on A Forum of Ice and Fire for those who are interested).

 

The way this can be revealed is that Howland Reed (Jojen's father) was present at the Tower of Joy when Ned had his showdown with the Kingsguard in his atremot to get Lyanna back.

 

Aegon. I believe is an imposter. Possibly some plot by Varys. He has a long talk to Kevan Lannister as he lies dying about Aegon being shapped to rule, which together with Quaithe's murmmers dragon I found odd.

 

If Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar song of Ice (Stark)and fire (Targaryen) could well be referring to him and he would be a likely candidate for being the Prince who was Promised /Azhor Ahai not Stannis as Mellisandre claims.

following on from this, could the start of winds of winter be Mellisandre realising that Jon Snow is actually Azhor Ahai and bring him back to life the same way that Berwick Dondarion brought catelyn stark back to life?

[cosanostra]

following on from this, could the start of winds of winter be Mellisandre realising that Jon Snow is actually Azhor Ahai and bring him back to life the same way that Berwick Dondarion brought catelyn stark back to life?

 

Pretty sure she will save him.

[Sergei Malatov]

I am certain that Jon Snow is not dead. Whether that is by Mellisandre I am not sure. It would seem a viable option. I hope note though I hated Catelynn Stark alive and my hatred grew as she was changed to the Lady Stonehart Zombie. Not my favourite plot device reserecution. As Beric Dondarrion mentions he does not comeback quite whole.

 

Although in his last chapter did Jon not just fade to black and it was never mentioned that he was dead? I can't really remember. If so then it leaves open the possibility that he was greviously wounded but not killed. I hate the theories about him warging Ghost to survice.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

I am certain that Jon Snow is not dead. Whether that is by Mellisandre I am not sure. It would seem a viable option. I hope note though I hated Catelynn Stark alive and my hatred grew as she was changed to the Lady Stonehart Zombie. Not my favourite plot device reserecution. As Beric Dondarrion mentions he does not comeback quite whole.

 

Although in his last chapter did Jon not just fade to black and it was never mentioned that he was dead? I can't really remember. If so then it leaves open the possibility that he was greviously wounded but not killed. I hate the theories about him warging Ghost to survice.

 

yeah it was left open like Tyrion at the end of blackwater/Arya after red wedding..

 

I would hope we dont see an un-Jon.

[Mr. T]

yeah it was left open like Tyrion at the end of blackwater/Arya after red wedding..

 

I would hope we dont see an un-Jon.

 

I imagine he'll either get himself stuck in Ghost as a warg (they really need to develop this more in the show... he should be warging at will by this point in the story)

 

or Mellisandre will pull a Thoros of Myr and ressurect him like Beric (not like un-Cat).

[the stone rose]

I imagine he'll either get himself stuck in Ghost as a warg (they really need to develop this more in the show... he should be warging at will by this point in the story)

 

or Mellisandre will pull a Thoros of Myr and ressurect him like Beric (not like un-Cat).

 

i get the feeling that the show is trying to keep things simpler for viewers and just have bran warging.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

i get the feeling that the show is trying to keep things simpler for viewers and just have bran warging.

 

perhaps, by this point in the books Arya has started warging into what we assume is Nymeria, its how she confirms Cat died at the Red Wedding, Arya/Nymeria pulls Cat out the water before the brotherhood find her

[the stone rose]

bet most GOT's viewers have forgotten all about Nymeria. sure the books say that Nymeria has gathered a huge pack of normal wolves. not sure if that is by now in the show timeline though.

[BoJack Horseman]

No chance is Jon Snow dead. None.

[Ortarkod]

I think the next book might start off with Jon seeing the Others' attack on the Wall through Ghost's eyes. Would change things up nicely, which is a necessity if the series is ever going to end.

[Jabba]

Not read a single page of the books but read this whole thread.

 

I didn't forget about Nymeria though, was hoping Arya would be meeting up with her(?) soon.

 

**** it. I'm away to tesco for the books.

 

 

 

[Haken]

 

bet most GOT's viewers have forgotten all about Nymeria. sure the books say that Nymeria has gathered a huge pack of normal wolves. not sure if that is by now in the show timeline though.

I don't think Nymeria is mentioned specifically, but there are various references to a big pack of wolves with an even bigger leader.

 

There are some interesting insights on this thread. Jon not being Ned's son never occurred to me. Maybe I just don't think about things deeply enough!

 

One of my own theories, though, is that Bran is going to 'take over' one of Dany's dragons in an ultra warg sort of fashion.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

 

I don't think Nymeria is mentioned specifically, but there are various references to a big pack of wolves with an even bigger leader.

 

 

In one of the Arya chapters where she is in what we assume is Nymeria the wolf also mentions her brothers and sisters saying one is dead (Lady) and one is far away (Ghost beyond the wall) I think

 

Whilst she doesn't seem to control Nymeria (yet) there is a connection even when Arya is in bravos

 

 

[Sergei Malatov]

I think the most interesting part of Winds of Winter will be what Wyman Manderly does next. His search for Rickon and his Frey Pies all, I think are leading to the downfall of the Bolton's and Freys. He is looking for vengeance for his son who died at the Red Wedding but also for Rob and the other Starks too. His actions are guided not just by thoughts of vengeance but and incredibly deep loyalty to the Starks. His grand daughter Wylla mentions this when he is asked to support Stannis. Her first thought is to offer support because Ned, Rob and Catelyn were murdered. She then goes onto talk about how the Wolves sheltered and protected them when they were friendless and homeless. Wyman I think will see the parrells to the Starks' current situation and feel he can repay part of the debt.

 

Wyman has proved to be a clever man and let's people think he is a feeble fool due to his weight. I can't help but think he may have been scheming in the background and gathered further Northern houses to support him against Roose.

[cosanostra]

Lord Manderly has been about the best character in the last books.

[Steve_Jersey_HMFC]

 

Lord Manderly has been about the best character in the last books.

 

This, liked his reveal to Davos

 

Wonder how theyre going to work Davos going after Rickon in Skagos in the show as theres no Wex character to tell the Manderlys but The Boltons know about Bran and Rickon so maybe the Manderlys will find out that way on the show

 

On the subject of red wedding karma, I really hope Walder Frey doesnt have some boring off screen old age death

 

Much better if at the hands of a Manderly, Arya, lady stoneheart or maybe even Jaime who we assume is with brienne, Lady S and the brotherhood

[BoJack Horseman]

Lord Manderly has been about the best character in the last books.

 

Agreed. Really ranked it up a notch. I didn't really know where it was all going until Davos' chapters. He hates the Frey's, looking forward to his plans coming to fruition.

 

I'd never have come to the conclusion that Jon isn't Ned's son by myself, but having read all the theories, this one seems pretty solid. I definitely subscribe to the R+L=J theory.

[cosanostra]

I kind of get the feeling that Walder Frey will not get the death he deserves.

He'll choke on a chicken bone aged 103 after marrying his 23rd wife or something.

[BoJack Horseman]

Thoughts on the deviations from the books the show is taking? I don't like how Jon knows about Bran.

[cosanostra]

Pretty weird with the guy called Locke, joining the nights watch as well. He was sort of Vargo Hoat in the book but now he's a completely new character who's just an enforcer for Roose Bolton.

 

I tend not to like any of the deviations from the book so I agree with Jon / Bran thing being wrong too. Not sure why Bran and co have been captured by the renegades at Crasters either.