Samster Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I don?t for a second believe there is a conspiracy against Hearts and all that nonsense at the AGM about refs costing us 15 pts or whatever is pretty embarrassing. However, in the grand scheme of things refs are having an absolute nightmare and they are costing the non-OF clubs points all over the place. Obviously I?m talking about the current Dundee Utd affair but we?ve been involved in Davisgate and the game against Celtic with the Fyssas/Maloney incident. Also the recent Falkirk game where John Hughes says he basically felt like a guinea pig having the rookie ref tested on him. I know the Romanovs come across lke a couple of crazies a lot of the time but perhaps if they articulated themselves better (i.e. like Levein) then people would take them more seriously. The standard of refereeing in this country is now at an all time low as far as I?m concerned (I?m 37) and something has to give sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Samster it's not at an all time low although it is very poor however these kind of decisions / scandals have been going on for DECADES - indeed at times in the past it may have been even worse - funny how the Old Firm and particularly Rangers always seem to be the beneficiaries of these 'mistakes' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 VR having a point? Christ, fans of every other member club has had this point for years, VR merely agrees with us. I am a few years younger than you yet I do not think the standards are much lower than they ever have been. They are no worse than they were when Fyssas was sent off They are no worse than they were when they gave Kyrgiakos a penalty They are no worse than they were when Tugay scored from miles offside at the Gorgie Road end They are no worse than they were the time we were beaten (eventually) four nil at Tynecastle after three penalty claims were ignored They are no worse than they were when Ian Wright scored from offside They are no worse than they were day we had four sent off at Ibrox They are no worse than they were when Levein decided to complain LAST time Reactionary statements at the moment IMO, it happened on a live televised match that would have deprived R@ng*rs/C*lt!c valuable points and or players in a vital run in. Every other week these things happen we simply have to get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Do the Romanovs have a point when they say that our current league position is down to referee's? - No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 . Every other week these things happen we simply have to get on with it. No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brellierlegend Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). Correct. However, the reason nobody backs them up is because they have no credibility. Respected guys like Levein do and I call for more people like him to come out and give him backing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Belker Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieholt Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). Agreed Gambo. Snag is that to change anything, the football establishment would need to accept that there is a problem. That won't happen any time soon. The courts are unlikely to be of much help here since proof of corruption would be almost impossible to obtain. All the other clubs are desperately hanging on the the OF's coat tails financially so any conceivable direct action by clubs (such as forming a new league without them) would result in TV cash drying up. So it's the devil and the deep blue sea ! So the question is how can change be brought about ? I really haven't a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Root Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Romanov could easily emphasis any point he cares to make by backing D.Utd. I hear from many that Hearts should tell them where to stick it due to no help when it was our turn, however if everybody has that attitude the OF will continue to get everything their way. Vlad should stand by Thomson and make himself an ally, hopefully then a few others will do the same........but can anyone see STF or Milne going against Murray? I sure as hell can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Number 8 Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 They are no worse than they were when Fyssas was sent off They are no worse than they were when they gave Kyrgiakos a penalty They are no worse than they were when Tugay scored from miles offside at the Gorgie Road end They are no worse than they were the time we were beaten (eventually) four nil at Tynecastle after three penalty claims were ignored They are no worse than they were when Ian Wright scored from offside They are no worse than they were day we had four sent off at Ibrox They are no worse than they were when Levein decided to complain LAST time Would like to add in tugay's handball controll for Wallace to score Hartsons 11 fouls before being booked for persistant fouling Sutton backing into Pressley then falling over in the box, penalty Non Booking of Mcmanus at 3-2 game for leaving field without permission@2-2 Balde wipping out Hartley ? when through on goal in same game. The countless debateable free kicks Celtic got under Martin O'Neil when there whole team was 6ft plus Coca Cola cup final 4-3 game Gazza's foul on half way line which led to goal. There are times when ive seen Hearts and other SPL teams well beaten by supierior Old Firm teams but there are a suspisiosly large chunk of games that are swung be referee decisions that favour 2 teams on a consistant basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmiyaRomanova Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 It's not just games against the OF that have witnessed problematic refereeing. Does no-one remember the spate of extremely dodgy decisions against us in the early part of this season? Even the media commented on it at the time. IIRC, it wasn't until sometime in February that a ref left the pitch at Tynecastle to anything other than resounding boos. I'm NOT saying that the Romanov's are right to say that poor reffing cost us 15 points - but I do think that it was one of the contributing factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vilenin Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). The problem is that (a) the Romanovs had no credibility at all by that point and even less now and ( Romanov Sr tried to broaden his complaint to one which said that refereeing mistakes were a deliberate attempt to get at us specifically (which is bollocks - refs are biased in favour of the OF in general/overly affected by hostile OF corwds but not actively biased against the Jambos. At least one grade one ref is a die-hard Jambo for a start). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 VR having a point? Christ, fans of every other member club has had this point for years, VR merely agrees with us. I am a few years younger than you yet I do not think the standards are much lower than they ever have been. They are no worse than they were when Fyssas was sent off They are no worse than they were when they gave Kyrgiakos a penalty They are no worse than they were when Tugay scored from miles offside at the Gorgie Road end They are no worse than they were the time we were beaten (eventually) four nil at Tynecastle after three penalty claims were ignored They are no worse than they were when Ian Wright scored from offside They are no worse than they were day we had four sent off at Ibrox They are no worse than they were when Levein decided to complain LAST time Reactionary statements at the moment IMO, it happened on a live televised match that would have deprived R@ng*rs/C*lt!c valuable points and or players in a vital run in. Every other week these things happen we simply have to get on with it. I agree with your main point, as I can testify myself, going as far back as v Celtic in the early 60's cup tie - Ref Bobby Davidson - older guys will remember that name with some distaste!!! And I agree we do have to get on with it - but that should never be used as a reason to stop hollering!!! It's not, as has been said earlier, a case of crying "Wolf!" with no wolf there!!! There's a bloody big smelly blue/green wolf, slavering at the door, and I for one will continue to fling everything at it I can, in the hope that one day, somebody will actually try and cage the beast, or send them off to play in a Transatlantic League!!! .................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 The Romanovs are correct in assuming that referees are biased but wrong when they claim that the bias is against Hearts; it's in favour of the Old Firm. The OF generally have better players but they win more easily than is justified by footballing talent alone. Some argue that if there was bias Aberdeen couldn't have enjoyed their success of the early 80s but they won leagues by 3 or 4 points & sometimes came second when their personnel were 10 or 12 points better than that of the OF. All clubs should back Dundee Utd's complaint. Just because other clubs were too short-sighted to back us in 2005 doesn't mean that we should refuse to support another club in the same situation. The only way to change things is if a large number of clubs back a complaint. Incidentally, some argue that VR's bizarre outbursts mean that our complaint against Andy Davis was never going to succeed. The problem with this argument is that VR didn't at that time have a track record of making bizarre outbursts & then seemed to be happy to work with Foulkes & Anderton. His comments about monkeys, referees & the love of a woman etc came later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vilenin Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 It's not just games against the OF that have witnessed problematic refereeing. Does no-one remember the spate of extremely dodgy decisions against us in the early part of this season? Even the media commented on it at the time. IIRC, it wasn't until sometime in February that a ref left the pitch at Tynecastle to anything other than resounding boos. I'm NOT saying that the Romanov's are right to say that poor reffing cost us 15 points - but I do think that it was one of the contributing factors. Never heard such nonsense. That's exactly the kind of delusional talk that leads to Hearts being short of credibility when discussing refereeing bias. Why on Earth would every referee who refed our games want to stitch up Hearts - it was obvious from pretty early on that we were ****e and no threat to anyone. Poor refreeing isn't the problem at Tynecastle (though it is at a national level): the problem at Tynie is the arrogant and clueless ***** who owns the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Caine Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I can't believe that there are still some on here who say "well, they didn't back us so we shouldn't back them".. It's that incredibly parochial attitude that will see the problem continue and maybe even worsen. The time has surely come for everyone to get behind United on this one and make a united stand - because divided, we continue to fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmiyaRomanova Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Never heard such nonsense. That's exactly the kind of delusional talk that leads to Hearts being short of credibility when discussing refereeing bias. Why on Earth would every referee who refed our games want to stitch up Hearts - it was obvious from pretty early on that we were ****e and no threat to anyone. Poor refreeing isn't the problem at Tynecastle (though it is at a national level): the problem at Tynie is the arrogant and clueless ***** who owns the club. You don't remember - or you weren't there? Merely calling what I saw - and I wasn't by any means the only one to think there was something untoward going on. Reached a head in December as I recall, and reffing performances really changed in tone after the New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Please explain how Hearts were getting bookings right left and centre (many of them deserved but a considerable number not) and we had players booked for diving when they were clearly fouled, and this went on and on - until the media - yes, even the media - were so embarassed that they highlighted the - now read my lips - the UNFAIR treatment of Hearts players!!! Suddenly - abracadabra!!! A run of games with hardly a booking to be seen!!! Oh, of course, it was just a coincidence!!! My 60 year old bahookey it was!!! ................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffundo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 they have a point when they talk about the game in scotland being biased. It is, it clearly is, but the bias has not cost us a great deal this season as we have not really been at the business end of the table with regards to the league. The cup..we were terrible against rangers, even though wee ned hand balled before he scored. out of two evils I would say the Romanovs are having a more detrimental affect on hearts progressing than any bias from the GFA. when we were playing good football we beat both halfs of the old firm and nobody can change that. If we get back to that, then results would take care of themselves and the refs can only influence so much of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I don?t for a second believe there is a conspiracy against Hearts and all that nonsense at the AGM about refs costing us 15 pts or whatever is pretty embarrassing. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeToonJambo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I agree with your main point, as I can testify myself, going as far back as v Celtic in the early 60's cup tie - Ref Bobby Davidson - older guys will remember that name with some distaste!!! And I agree we do have to get on with it - but that should never be used as a reason to stop hollering!!! It's not, as has been said earlier, a case of crying "Wolf!" with no wolf there!!! There's a bloody big smelly blue/green wolf, slavering at the door, and I for one will continue to fling everything at it I can, in the hope that one day, somebody will actually try and cage the beast, or send them off to play in a Transatlantic League!!! .................... I think it was that game which, as a 12 year old, made me realise all was not well with the referees in Scotland. Very little has changed over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeToonJambo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I posted some time ago that referees had been instructed to show no tolerance towards Hearts players. My source is a Grade 1 referee who I'm obviously not going to name. Anyone who was at games in the early part of the season would have to be blind not to see it. It became so obvious that we came to expect bookings and sendings-off as a matter of course. As earlier posted things changed when the press began to comment on the unfair treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots civil war Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I can't believe that there are still some on here who say "well, they didn't back us so we shouldn't back them".. It's that incredibly parochial attitude that will see the problem continue and maybe even worsen. The time has surely come for everyone to get behind United on this one and make a united stand - because divided, we continue to fall. .........absolutely chief,all we need is a dynamic factor popping up and for us to grab it and use it........we should all,as long suffering paying punters, back craig levein to the hilt in this time.its all a ****ing con and they know it **** the weedgie establishment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Diamond also brought it up as well Refs only seem to make mistakes for the old firm Romanovs made it worse by spouting a lot of rubbish. Making everybody look paranoid Rodney in particular they should keep there mouth shut and run the football club properly first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Whilst to say the ref's are to blame for our league position and that they have directly cost us 15 points is perhaps a little far-fetched..... what if I was to ask this question.... "Do you think that there have been 5 games this season where a significant 'error' has been made by someone officiating a Hearts match?" I think that the answer would mostly be a resounding YES. And when you think about it, thats basically what the Romanov's said - 15 points amounts to 5 games. The incinuation there is that refereeing blunders have played a significant part in 5 games this season. If i'm honest, I dont think they are far from the truth with that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auldbauldfan Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 The SFA is an association of member Clubs who, presumably, are represented at general meetings. Do the delegates of the Clubs who feel they are getting a raw deal with referees to the advantage of the OF never raise these issues at meetings? I can't recall ever hearing reports about debates on alleged bias towards the OF having taken place amongst member clubs at SFA gatherings. Surely representatives of the non-OF SPL Clubs, all of whom have experienced some degree of bias at one time or other, should be ensuring that the matter is raised and discussed formally at the highest level. I know that the SFA's instinctive reaction is to do all it can to stifle any debate which may show the Scottish game in a poor light but, with modern TV coverage of games, clearly demonstrating either bias or gross incompetence, the time has come to take off the blinkers and address the problem. People like Gordon Smith are supposed to be merely tools of the organisation and the member Clubs have a responsibility to sort this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Originally Posted by Samster I don?t for a second believe there is a conspiracy against Hearts and all that nonsense at the AGM about refs costing us 15 pts or whatever is pretty embarrassing. Agreed. I disagree (we could debate all day the actual number of points) but imo we have been treated differently to all other clubs when it comes to discipline, booking,diving,sending offs etc and those things do contribute to loss of points/games. It went on so long and became so blatant that, as others have pointed out, even some of the 'anti Hearts'(my opinion) media started to notice and point it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zali Cinnamon Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Yeah the refereeing is corrupt here but it's not just Hearts who are on the wrong end of it. And the AGM was a completely idiotic time to rant about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 No we don't imo. That basically says we should just sit back and accept the cheating/old-firm bias. It is that sort of attitude imo that has been partly to blame for holding Scottish Football back over the years. VR DOES have a point imo, and the Romanovs have made the point a few times and not just only after televised games, just a pity some of our own supporters and Scottish football in general did not back him up (in fact they did the exact opposite). I may not have been clear, I meant that statement in the past tense. Oh, and yeah, my attitude to referees is the reason we get cheated? I wish someone had told me, we could have averted years of referee cheating if I had known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Oh, and yeah, my attitude to referees is the reason we get cheated? I wish someone had told me, we could have averted years of referee cheating if I had known. Well now you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Not sure that refs cost us as much at 15 points a season but they are good for at least 15 points to each of the OF per season... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch41 Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I don?t for a second believe there is a conspiracy against Hearts and all that nonsense at the AGM about refs costing us 15 pts or whatever is pretty embarrassing. However, in the grand scheme of things refs are having an absolute nightmare and they are costing the non-OF clubs points all over the place. Obviously I?m talking about the current Dundee Utd affair but we?ve been involved in Davisgate and the game against Celtic with the Fyssas/Maloney incident. Also the recent Falkirk game where John Hughes says he basically felt like a guinea pig having the rookie ref tested on him. I know the Romanovs come across lke a couple of crazies a lot of the time but perhaps if they articulated themselves better (i.e. like Levein) then people would take them more seriously. The standard of refereeing in this country is now at an all time low as far as I?m concerned (I?m 37) and something has to give sooner or later. the romanov's have told us nothing we already didn't know but all credit to them for saying it how it is. there's no doubt the sfa's referee's and linesmen have it in for hearts because the club has made their feelings public but this shows the world just how corrupt the system is and that means the officials are corrupt. i've witnessed far too many disgraceful decisions for the old firm (especially rangers) over 45 years and like alan anderson said in 1970 'i can't see it ever changing'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I posted some time ago that referees had been instructed to show no tolerance towards Hearts players. My source is a Grade 1 referee who I'm obviously not going to name. Anyone who was at games in the early part of the season would have to be blind not to see it. It became so obvious that we came to expect bookings and sendings-off as a matter of course. As earlier posted things changed when the press began to comment on the unfair treatment. interesting & not at all unbelievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combo74 Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I don?t for a second believe there is a conspiracy against Hearts and all that nonsense at the AGM about refs costing us 15 pts or whatever is pretty embarrassing. However, in the grand scheme of things refs are having an absolute nightmare and they are costing the non-OF clubs points all over the place. Obviously I?m talking about the current Dundee Utd affair but we?ve been involved in Davisgate and the game against Celtic with the Fyssas/Maloney incident. Also the recent Falkirk game where John Hughes says he basically felt like a guinea pig having the rookie ref tested on him. I know the Romanovs come across lke a couple of crazies a lot of the time but perhaps if they articulated themselves better (i.e. like Levein) then people would take them more seriously. The standard of refereeing in this country is now at an all time low as far as I?m concerned (I?m 37) and something has to give sooner or later. I raised this with a couple fo friends. Romanov raised this issue 2 years ago and Hearts challenged the integrity of Andy Davis. Hearts outburst was meet with universal silence from the other SPL clubs and ridicule and condemnation from the media and the governing body. However in the years that have followed John Hughes and now Levein have questioned the integrity of the referees and the SPL, without being called mad or crazy and are getting very balanced media coverage. Now I know Romanovs methods and his way of articulating the issue were maybe a bit leftfield, however his points are valid all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horse Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 I raised this with a couple fo friends. Romanov raised this issue 2 years ago and Hearts challenged the integrity of Andy Davis. Hearts outburst was meet with universal silence from the other SPL clubs and ridicule and condemnation from the media and the governing body. However in the years that have followed John Hughes and now Levein have questioned the integrity of the referees and the SPL, without being called mad or crazy and are getting very balanced media coverage. Now I know Romanovs methods and his way of articulating the issue were maybe a bit leftfield, however his points are valid all the same. Like the one about Pressley being the cancer:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Generally, officials are biased in favour of the Ugly Sisters and are worth at least 15 points a season to them by key awards when it matters. They will also conspire to ensure that any credible threat to the status quo will be on the rough end of poor decisions. Two years ago we caught them off guard and it took them until October to swing into action. The establishment will always thrive in the divisions and petty rivalries that exist amongst the minor clubs and the only way a change will come about is if all other teams collaborate to present a united front against the stain on Scottish football that is the old firm and its friends in high places. It is no longer about Hearts or Utd or Aberdeen, it is about all clubs outside the old firm. Time to stand up and be counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Samster it's not at an all time low although it is very poor however these kind of decisions / scandals have been going on for DECADES - indeed at times in the past it may have been even worse - funny how the Old Firm and particularly Rangers always seem to be the beneficiaries of these 'mistakes' ? The difference now is the TV and website highlights. Years ago if you told a #obo mate Hearts were cheated he would just roll his eyes. You would roll your eyes at him the next week. Now there is no where for the GFA to hide. We in Scotland have a serious problem with officials and even our own association. Last Saturdays display of blatant cheating and then the cover up by Smith will only make it more obvious to other Scottish football fans that we dont play on a level playing field. The owners (other than the OF owners) need to get together and discuss a break away league again. The OF need us more than we need them. Without them we still have a league. Without us they have nothing. OF fans actually wont watch 36 games between only the OF teams. Now is the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 The difference now is the TV and website highlights. Years ago if you told a #obo mate Hearts were cheated he would just roll his eyes. You would roll your eyes at him the next week. Now there is no where for the GFA to hide. We in Scotland have a serious problem with officials and even our own association. Last Saturdays display of blatant cheating and then the cover up by Smith will only make it more obvious to other Scottish football fans that we dont play on a level playing field. The owners (other than the OF owners) need to get together and discuss a break away league again. The OF need us more than we need them. Without them we still have a league. Without us they have nothing. OF fans actually wont watch 36 games between only the OF teams. Now is the time. But there is. We've been ridiculed over the last few years because Romanov has said precisely that. Because it's being said by an honest Scotsman everyone should now take notice? I'm sure everyone will just laugh again when it happens to us again last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirwalter Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Indeed they do..in a cranial sense. It must be genetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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