Trams costs shoot up for second time in fortnight

[Sherlock]

THE cost of Edinburgh's tram project is to rise for the second time in a fortnight.

 

Anybody suprised at this?

 

THE cost of Edinburgh's tram project is to rise for the second time in a fortnight.

 

Tram firm TIE is facing a ?3 million increase in the scheme's overall cost to ?511m as a result of protracted contract negotiations.

 

The move comes just nine days after councillors approved a ?10m increase to ?508m after tram chiefs revealed that a delay in contract talks ? in addition to exposure to Euro currency fluctuations ? had pushed prices up.

 

It is understood the contractual problem was with BBS, the firm supplying the tram tracks and overhead wires.

 

Negotiations have now been concluded, with BBS now taking on more of the risks for the project in exchange for getting more money up front.

 

Contracts for both the infrastructure and the tram car deals were meant to be concluded three months ago but are now expected to be signed on Wednesday.

 

The increase in capital costs for the trams further eats into the scheme's contingency fund, much of which it had been hoped could be put towards the ?87m Haymarket-Granton line 1B link.

 

The public opening of the tram line ? previously slated for February 25, 2011 ? has also slipped as a result of the extended talks and is now scheduled for July, 2011.

 

Tram firm TIE today said it had achieved additional benefits for the project, such as transferring more of the risk away from the public purse.

 

Deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said: "This is of real concern to us, it is public money we are talking about here and I will be particularly worried if any of these companies think we are a soft touch because it is public money.

 

"We have always been told there are checks and balances in place with the project but it now looks like two fairly substantial erosions of the contingency fund in the space of two weeks and it doesn't bode that well for the future.

 

"We will be asking why we are in the situation where the contracts have yet to be finalised and also whether anything could have been done to prevent this."

 

Council reports released last week show the base cost of the airport to Newhaven link has risen from ?449m to ?476m but the amount officials need to allow for project risks had dropped from ?49m to ?32m.

 

This accounted for the ?10m overall increase in the project.

 

The Scottish Government has already given ?500m towards the scheme and the city council has promised to come-up with ?45m.

 

However, not all of the council's money has been secured, with city leaders banking on developer contributions to meet their shortfall.

 

Councillor Ian Murray, the city's Labour finance spokesman, said: "The contingency funding was put in place to try and make this project as foolproof as possible and it is at times like this when TIE will naturally be considering dipping into them.

 

"These are complicated contract negotiations and I think TIE has done a good job so far with the project."

 

A spokesman for TIE said: "We have endeavoured to achieve additional benefits for the project and this has involved small changes to the capital costs.

 

"This is still well within the overall money available of ?545m."

[Mr X]

Not at all, and for this reason alone I will never vote for Labour in Scotland. An unforgivable, disgraceful, sickening waste of money.

[Sherlock]

Not at all, and for this reason alone I will never vote for Labour in Scotland. An unforgivable, disgraceful, sickening waste of money.

 

Correct on all counts.

[Era Macaroons]

does anyone know what the expected fare is going to be to use a tram?

[lyonjambo]

I do agree that the money has gotten ridiculous but I am all for trams.

 

They are quiet, environmentally friendly, quick and direct. Of all the modes of transport in lyon the trams were by far the cleanest and most reliable.

[John Findlay]

When it is reported it costs ?500Million to lay a five mile extension to the M74 is anyone really surprised that the cost of trams in Edinburgh is rising and will go on rising? I mean ?100million for one mile of motorway. Someone is taking the Jarko Wiss(crap Hibs player for those not in the know).

 

 

 

John

[Prince Buaben]

Something that i've been wondering wheres the funding coming from edinburgh council?, Scottish Government?

[Walter Payton]

I do agree that the money has gotten ridiculous but I am all for trams.

 

They are quiet, environmentally friendly, quick and direct. Of all the modes of transport in lyon the trams were by far the cleanest and most reliable.

 

Glad to see you don't include practical though. They're going to replace a 22 bus service than goes every 5 minutes but carries around 30 passengers with a service that (although it will carry around 5 times as many passengers) will only go once an hour. What happens if you miss the tram, or if you want more choice about when you arrive at your destination? They're not going to convince more people to rely on public transport with thinking like that IMO.

[Walter Payton]

The price of transport infrastructure rising...it happens all the time.

 

Renovation of Partick station just announced today as hitting ?6m.

 

Fact is, once the trams are installed they will be an asset to the city. Just like the overground railway is to Glasgow. Doesn't mean there should be an open cheque-book attitude to public transport renovations, but they should be encouraged and heavily invested in, IMO.

 

What about investing the money in the existing overground railway system Edinburgh already has?

[lyonjambo]

Glad to see you don't include practical though. They're going to replace a 22 bus service than goes every 5 minutes but carries around 30 passengers with a service that (although it will carry around 5 times as many passengers) will only go once an hour. What happens if you miss the tram, or if you want more choice about when you arrive at your destination? They're not going to convince more people to rely on public transport with thinking like that IMO.

 

I did not know that, I was just going on my own experience of trams elsewhere. One an hour seems ridiculous though. I always thought the number of 22s was ridiculous but to cut it that much will just irritate people.

[Poseidon]

What about investing the money in the existing overground railway system Edinburgh already has?

 

Rail-link to the airport and a few more quid on the buses and jobs a good'un. Instead we get the farce that is trams running on nigh on the same route as the best bus service in Edinburgh

[Prince Buaben]

Mainly.

 

The Government provides ring fenced grants to Local Authorities for service provision. The LA's get income from income tax and fees and charges (parking fees etc). Any deficit between this total and the council's annual operating expenditure is made up by the Revenue Support Grant- again provided by the Scottish Government.

 

Bored? You bet I am....

 

Cheers..

[Coco]

Something that i've been wondering wheres the funding coming from edinburgh council?, Scottish Government?

 

There was an amount in the region of ?500m voted through in the Scottish Parliament as direct funding.

 

The remainder - and every penny of it - has to be found either by the Council from its own resources (ie block grants, council tax, other revenue sources or asset sales) or from developer contributions. The contribution from the Scottish Government has been effectively capped.

 

Every increase in the price has to be funded by Edinburgh Council. They are well below target on the expected contributions from developers - and so they are in the process of trying to sell Council assets and cut back on services provided to the people of Edinburgh. Given that the cost is likely to rise by tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds - expect some big cut backs.

[Darren]

One of the few reasons I am glad to be out of Edinburgh. What an absolute farce. Just redevelop the rail network idiots!

[The Old Tolbooth]

You just wonder how much the Edinburgh residents council tax will go up as a result of this farcical development, I feel sorry for them.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

does anyone know what the expected fare is going to be to use a tram?

 

Sure it's going to be ?1.50

[davemclaren]

Glad to see you don't include practical though. They're going to replace a 22 bus service than goes every 5 minutes but carries around 30 passengers with a service that (although it will carry around 5 times as many passengers) will only go once an hour. What happens if you miss the tram, or if you want more choice about when you arrive at your destination? They're not going to convince more people to rely on public transport with thinking like that IMO.

 

Where did you get the once an hour from? It's 6 trams an hour which is one every ten minutes.

[dsswc]

Glad to see you don't include practical though. They're going to replace a 22 bus service than goes every 5 minutes but carries around 30 passengers with a service that (although it will carry around 5 times as many passengers) will only go once an hour. What happens if you miss the tram, or if you want more choice about when you arrive at your destination? They're not going to convince more people to rely on public transport with thinking like that IMO.

 

I'm sure there will be more than one an hour. There's going to be 27 trams and only one line so, basing this purely on conjecture, say 20 of them were running at one time, that's 10 going each way, the whole route would probably take an hour at most during rush hour, so maybe one every ten minutes would be more likely? And they'll be able to carry about 200 folk .

 

And the fares will be the same as whatever a single is for Lothian buses by that time, you'll be able to use bus daysavers and ridacards on them as well.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I do agree that the money has gotten ridiculous but I am all for trams.

 

They are quiet, environmentally friendly, quick and direct. Of all the modes of transport in lyon the trams were by far the cleanest and most reliable.

 

Oh great, an eco warrior!

[Bindy Badgy]

I did not know that, I was just going on my own experience of trams elsewhere. One an hour seems ridiculous though. I always thought the number of 22s was ridiculous but to cut it that much will just irritate people.

 

I used to live in Stenhouse and during peak hours I had buses flying past me as they were full up.

 

During off peak hours there does seem to be too many during rush hour the number of buses is more than justified.

[Boris]

According to Council literature, he funding for the trams will not come from Council Tax payers.

 

There is the ?500m from Holyrood and the Council expect to raise the rest via private investment. Whether or not this ends up happening, I don't know.

 

I've no major beef about the trams tbh and once they are in I think they will be a success.

[Phage]

Your not going to get on a tram for anything less than 1.50. Thats why the buses went up to 1.10... and you can bet they will keep going up fast until they level off at about the same.

 

After all who would get a tram when you can get on a bus 40p cheaper

[Ulysses]

After all who would get a tram when you can get on a bus 40p cheaper

 

Dubliners.

 

OK, in our case it's 40c, which is about 31p, but we do because the service is quicker, more frequent and more reliable.

 

Best ?770m the city ever spent. Btw, can anyone tell me how many miles (or km) of track Edinburgh is getting for its ?511m?

[Coco]

Your not going to get on a tram for anything less than 1.50. Thats why the buses went up to 1.10... and you can bet they will keep going up fast until they level off at about the same.

 

After all who would get a tram when you can get on a bus 40p cheaper

 

The buses will no longer be running along the line! So the alternative of a bus will not be there, unless you take a roundabout route.

 

Not only will existing bus services be removed, the Council will attempt to increase congestion around and along the tram line for other road users in an attempt to force up ridership on the tram.

 

Given how much congestion it is going to create - it is a bitter irony that even after the tram line is built and the trams bought, economic efficiency and congestion would be higher and lower respectively if they did not run the trams. It will make sense at every point from now onwards right up until it is running to cancel the project - even after ?500m or ?1bn of costs!

[Ulysses]

Given how much congestion it is going to create.....

 

Is it going to create congestion?

 

When the Luas Green Line opened on my side of Dublin, my commute time dropped by about 10 minutes.

 

My problem is that they won't build more tram lines. A feasibility study recommended a tram route to my area, but it'll be years before it's built, if it ever happens.

[Coco]

Is it going to create congestion?

 

When the Luas Green Line opened on my side of Dublin, my commute time dropped by about 10 minutes.

 

My problem is that they won't build more tram lines. A feasibility study recommended a tram route to my area, but it'll be years before it's built, if it ever happens.

 

The 'business case' reveals that their studies (by the consultants paid to order) say that congestion will drop by 1%. Now a 1% drop in congestion is obviously not measurable in itself, but the study ignores the restrictions which will have to be put on traffic on streets surrounding the tram line in part to force ridership, it ignores the fact that the traffic management in the city centre has not even been announced etc. And the best they can come up with is -1%.

 

... and it is based on the premise that tens of thousands of rabbit hutches will be built at Granton/Leith. Looks pretty unlikely at this point.

 

With regard to your commute. I have only been on the LUAS once, but as I remember it was mostly off road? At most of the pinch points in the city centre which will create congestion the Edinburgh one is on road.

 

In addition, the key concern of the Council's roads/traffic/congestion creation department has been to create congestion in the last 15 years. Road narrowing, one ways and all the rest of it. If this tram line creates congestion ... what could be the cure for that congestion ... what about another tram line ...which would create congestion ... which means a tram line is required ... lots of juicy cash

[Ulysses]

The 'business case' reveals that their studies (by the consultants paid to order) say that congestion will drop by 1%. Now a 1% drop in congestion is obviously not measurable in itself, but the study ignores the restrictions which will have to be put on traffic on streets surrounding the tram line in part to force ridership, it ignores the fact that the traffic management in the city centre has not even been announced etc. And the best they can come up with is -1%.

 

... and it is based on the premise that tens of thousands of rabbit hutches will be built at Granton/Leith. Looks pretty unlikely at this point.

 

With regard to your commute. I have only been on the LUAS once, but as I remember it was mostly off road? At most of the pinch points in the city centre which will create congestion the Edinburgh one is on road.

 

In addition, the key concern of the Council's roads/traffic/congestion creation department has been to create congestion in the last 15 years. Road narrowing, one ways and all the rest of it. If this tram line creates congestion ... what could be the cure for that congestion ... what about another tram line ...which would create congestion ... which means a tram line is required ... lots of juicy cash

 

Thanks, I was wondering what was different about Edinburgh. The Green Line is mostly off-street, the Red Line is mostly on-street. Both have resulted in reduced traffic congestion along their routes - except for one point on the Red Line due to construction of a motorway interchange. I forgot to mention that my reduced commuting time is by car.

 

As is expected to be the case in Edinburgh, the trams here have reduced traffic volumes by small amounts - about 2% in total. But most of that 2% is concentrated along two routes into the city, which means that volumes on routes like my driving route have fallen by up to 10%. In most cities, the difference between peak and non-peak traffic volumes is less than 10%.

 

It used to take me an average of 40 minutes to drive to work. That's now 30 minutes. A mate of mine who lives beside a tram stop saw his commute cut from 40 minutes to 16.

 

There are only 2 tram lines in Dublin compared with over 1,000 buses and more than 100 bus routes. Yet the trams carry nearly 20% of the traffic that the buses do.

 

The Luas is a real winner as far as Dublin is concerned. It's not for me to say whether or not it will also be a winner in Edinburgh, but I have to point out that while the Luas was being built its detractors said exactly the same things as those opposed to the trams in Edinburgh are saying now.

[Ulysses]

Btw, can anyone tell me how many miles (or km) of track Edinburgh is getting for its ?511m?

 

Anyone? It seems like an obvious thing to know, but I can't find anything on the web.

[blairdin]

Anyone? It seems like an obvious thing to know, but I can't find anything on the web.

 

It's about 11 miles, probably half on road and half off road alongside existing railway line.

 

Ocean Terminal - Constitution Street - Leith Walk - Princess Street - Shandwick Place - Haymarket (from here basically all off road alongside existing railway line) - Murrayfield - Balgreen - Saughton - Broomhouse - Sighthill - Edinburgh Park (back on road) - South Gyle - Gogar Roundabout (back off road) - Airport.

[Coco]

Thanks, I was wondering what was different about Edinburgh. The Green Line is mostly off-street, the Red Line is mostly on-street. Both have resulted in reduced traffic congestion along their routes - except for one point on the Red Line due to construction of a motorway interchange. I forgot to mention that my reduced commuting time is by car.

 

As is expected to be the case in Edinburgh, the trams here have reduced traffic volumes by small amounts - about 2% in total. But most of that 2% is concentrated along two routes into the city, which means that volumes on routes like my driving route have fallen by up to 10%. In most cities, the difference between peak and non-peak traffic volumes is less than 10%.

 

It used to take me an average of 40 minutes to drive to work. That's now 30 minutes. A mate of mine who lives beside a tram stop saw his commute cut from 40 minutes to 16.

 

There are only 2 tram lines in Dublin compared with over 1,000 buses and more than 100 bus routes. Yet the trams carry nearly 20% of the traffic that the buses do.

 

The Luas is a real winner as far as Dublin is concerned. It's not for me to say whether or not it will also be a winner in Edinburgh, but I have to point out that while the Luas was being built its detractors said exactly the same things as those opposed to the trams in Edinburgh are saying now.

 

Anecdotal evidence and evidence from 'transport consultants' who rely on continual waste on these projects is not sophisticated enough. The distortions to activity are harder to measure.

 

In particular in Edinburgh - the line goes through no area which requires regeneration. There is no need to distort activity along the line. It terminates in the north where the planners/developers plan a rabbit hutch development of cheap low quality flats - which now in my opinion look unlikely to be built in large part. Their low quality models suggest that a huge proportion of rabbits who move into their planned hutches will work in the centre of town and will take the tram. There are no other planned improvements to the transport links to the east or west in particular.

 

As I have said, congestion reductions of 1% are too small to measure - and far larger reductions in congestion would be possible by rolling back the congestion creation measures. Less of a gravy train possible for that.

I apologise for one of my most unstructured and worst posts ever - but I can't be bothered sorting it out