UKIO agree to proceed towards a CVA (merged threads)

[jimbrown76]

So if the CVA works out, all goes well and Foh get hearts, are we then debt free when we leave admin?

 

Three big ifs in there but yes we will be debt free apart from the football debts which IIRC are around ?500,000.

[kingantti1874]

My tentative conclusions from this thread are - yesterday's vote means that BDO now have approval to liquidate the club without further reference to the creditors, only a CVA can prevent that default position occurring, barely 50% of the creditor vote has any financial incentive to agree a CVA, it is hoped that Ukio may have some sort of power over how Ubig vote

 

Always look on the bright side of life do do do do do do.. I'm not accusing you of being a hobo Francis, far from it..But you'd fit slio into the hobonomics massive the hertz are ###### thread and nobody would ever question you or even suspect you were a jambo.. I genuinely can't recall any optimism in any of your posts

 

[Wolfstar]

 

 

Three big ifs in there but yes we will be debt free apart from the football debts which IIRC are around ?500,000.

 

Plus any debt to the financial backer of foh. But that should not be over the ?5m mark.

 

One thing we as fans must do in future is ensure no owner puts us into debt again, we can turnover ?7m plus and this should be enough to qualify for euorope most seasons

[jimbrown76]

Plus any debt to the financial backer of foh. But that should not be over the ?5m mark.

 

One thing we as fans must do in future is ensure no owner puts us into debt again, we can turnover ?7m plus and this should be enough to qualify for euorope most seasons

 

Apologies, you are correct and it was something I overlooked.

[Hartley Jambo.]

 

 

 

That's certainly a possibility, but if Lithuanian insolvency law works in a similar way to Scotland's, then the UBIG administrator must act in the interests of ALL UBIG's creditors and not the largest one (Ukio).

 

We have already seen the power of UBIG's other creditors in that they managed to get a court to freeze Vlads assets.

If that's correct, then doesn't that create a possible issue in that by agreeing a CVA they will get nothing, but rejecting it they will get something, albeit a relatively small amount.

[Footballfirst]

wrong post

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

If that's correct, then doesn't that create a possible issue in that by agreeing a CVA they will get nothing, but rejecting it they will get something, albeit a relatively small amount.

FF's point is that Ukio, to get the CVA and more dosh than liquidation, would have to sacrifice preferred creditor status.

 

My point that FF responded to was regarding the inter-linking between Ukio and UBIG. If Ukio are the primary creditor of UBIG then they could influence their vote accordingly to maximise the pot for Ukio.

[Footballfirst]

I have a couple of scenarios of how a CVA would work along these lines.

 

For ease of calculation, lets say that the total debt is ?28M and the offer was ?4.5M in total.

 

Scenario 1

BDO claim ?500K in administrators fees

Lets say Ukio receive ?1.2M in respect of the Standard Security for Tynecastle. The additional money they are due is included in with the unsecured creditors

The remaining ?2.8M works out at 10p in the ?.

Ukio would get a further ?1.5M for their debt and shares

UBIG would get ?1m for their debt and shares

All other creditors share ?300K between them as part of the CVA

 

Scenario 2

BDO receive ?500K in administrators expenses

Ukio receive ?2M for the Standard Security over Tynecastle

Ukio receive ?300K for their shares (30%)

Ukio receive ?1.2M in respect of their floating charge

UBIG receive ?500K for their shares (50%)

All unsecured creditors receive a ?0.0p in the ?

[casper]

If that's correct, then doesn't that create a possible issue in that by agreeing a CVA they will get nothing, but rejecting it they will get something, albeit a relatively small amount.

 

What will probably happen is this.

For example, say FOH offer ?3M for a CVA.

They might specify ?2M to ukio, as they hold the secured debt, and ?1M to the remaining creditors.

[Francis Albert]

Always look on the bright side of life do do do do do do.. I'm not accusing you of being a hobo Francis, far from it..But you'd fit slio into the hobonomics massive the hertz are ###### thread and nobody would ever question you or even suspect you were a jambo.. I genuinely can't recall any optimism in any of your posts

Although your little emoticons are always fun, the fact is we are one step closer to liquidation than we were before yesterday's vote and no closer to getting a CVA than we were before yesterday's vote. I don't give a sod whether it would fit into a Hobo thread. It is a fact, but feel free to rofl away and pretend otherwise. Have you read the proposals that were approved yesterday?

[ToYouToMe]

Although your little emoticons are always fun, the fact is we are one step closer to liquidation than we were before yesterday's vote and no closer to getting a CVA than we were before yesterday's vote. I don't give a sod whether it would fit into a Hobo thread. It is a fact, but feel free to rofl away and pretend otherwise. Have you read the proposals that were approved yesterday?

 

The administrator seemed a lot more positive than you about the club avoiding liquidation.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[Francis Albert]

The administrator seemed a lot more positive than you about the club avoiding liquidation.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

I don't think the administrator has said anything that contradicts what I've said. And I am on balance positive that we will avoid liquidation, just don't see the point in pretending something has happened when it hasn't.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I don't think the administrator has said anything that contradicts what I've said. And I am on balance positive that we will avoid liquidation, just don't see the point in pretending something has happened when it hasn't.

 

The main news in this stems from the worry (propounded by you in particular in other threads) that the Lithuanians would deem none of the offers worth pursuing and send the club directly to liquidation. None of us thought this was the most likely outcome, but it couldn't be dismissed.

 

The positive news is that the Lithuanians see enough promise of a CVA that they're willing to incur continuing to pay BDO to try to work one out, rather than cash out ASAP. That's good news, even if it was about a 90% certainty, because that 10% chance would have been horrible.

[Gregory House M.D.]

Francis Albert

 

We're actually one step further away from liquidation because had the creditors agreed not to pursue a CVA then we were messed. Stick in there though, champ. You might just persuade a couple of posters to Join the official FA Pantwetters Society.

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

I have my 'We Are Unliquidatable' t-shirt ready to wear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too soon?

[kingantti1874]

Although your little emoticons are always fun, the fact is we are one step closer to liquidation than we were before yesterday's vote and no closer to getting a CVA than we were before yesterday's vote. I don't give a sod whether it would fit into a Hobo thread. It is a fact, but feel free to rofl away and pretend otherwise. Have you read the proposals that were approved yesterday?

 

I have, what was the best possible outcome from yesterday? What was the desired outcome for the club's perspective.. The outcome of the meeting was what we wanted and you, as usual are the only person on the board who thinks it's somehow negative..

[The Gasman]

Francis Albert

 

We're actually one step further away from liquidation because had the creditors agreed not to pursue a CVA then we were messed. Stick in there though, champ. You might just persuade a couple of posters to Join the official FA Pantwetters Society.

 

It's becoming increasingly tedious. Every, message, comment, statement, and FA invents a negative interpretation.

[rudi]

 

 

 

It's becoming increasingly tedious. Every, message, comment, statement, and FA invents a negative interpretation.

Mr G you seem to have a fair grasp on whats goin on, forgive my ignorance but can BDO (now that the administrators in Lithuania have mentioned CVA) say to the FoH "look lads your bid's not quite enough how's about getting A N Other to back your bid" ie another consortium funds the ground and FoH fund the outstanding debt and other expenses, or am I just talking guff?

[Dazzle]

the fact is we are one step closer to liquidation than we were before yesterday's vote and no closer to getting a CVA than we were before yesterday's vote.

 

How did you come to that conclusion ? At worst, nothing has really changed as far as I can tell.

[The Gasman]

Mr G you seem to have a fair grasp on whats goin on, forgive my ignorance but can BDO (now that the administrators in Lithuania have mentioned CVA) say to the FoH "look lads your bid's not quite enough how's about getting A N Other to back your bid" ie another consortium funds the ground and FoH fund the outstanding debt and other expenses, or am I just talking guff?

 

BDO have already said to FoH that what they currently have on the table is not good enough, and Trevor Birch has repeated that publicly in this recent statement. I don't think for a second that as administrators they'd get involved in telling FoH how to arrange their funding, but I'm sure that they will have both informal and formal chats about what total(s) might be required.

[rudi]

BDO have already said to FoH that what they currently have on the table is not good enough, and Trevor Birch has repeated that publicly in this recent statement. I don't think for a second that as administrators they'd get involved in telling FoH how to arrange their funding, but I'm sure that they will have both informal and formal chats about what total(s) might be required.

Okay, just thought that as administrators they would be trying to find the best solution for everyone concerned and would be in a position (legally) to advise FoH the best avenue that would be suitable for the Lithuanian administrators to agree a CVA, just a thought hoping we have BDO (who seem to be good guys) helping a bidder.

[Francis Albert]

Francis Albert

 

We're actually one step further away from liquidation because had the creditors agreed not to pursue a CVA then we were messed. Stick in there though, champ. You might just persuade a couple of posters to Join the official FA Pantwetters Society.

My pants are dry thanks. The facts are tedious I know but I prefer them to glib and misleading, and in some cases plain false, media reports. In the Rangers case we rightly looked beyond what the media told us. Here we seem reluctant to so. Here in summary are the relevant proposals in relation to cva and liquidation which were put to creditors yesterday and approved. To avoid being "tedious" this is a summary but they can be read in full in Clause 14 . on page 9 of BDO's Statement of administrator's proposals.

 

(i) the administrators to exercise their powers under the insolvency act as at their discretion they consider desirable to achieve the purposes of administration, to protect and preserve assets or maximises realisation of those assets or for any purpose incidental to these proposals [in other words. the administrators to get on with their job; the purposes of administration are set out elsewhere and the first objective is to preserve the company as a going concern, in practice via a CVA)

 

(ii) the administrators to be empowered at their sole discretion to a. file the necessary returns at court and with the Registrar of Companies to place the company into Creditors Voluntary Liquidation and appoint appoint Jackson, Birch and Stephen of BDO as Joint Liquidators or b. make application at the end of administration to have the Company compulsorily wound up or c. file the necessary documents to dissolve the company [in other words the administrators to have discretion to liquidate]

 

(iii) following approval of these proposals and subject to an acceptable offer being received, it would be the administrators intention to issue CVA proposals ... and a further meeting of creditors would be convened. [in other words, as part of doing the administrators' job , as proposed in (i) an attempt will be made (without commitment) to put a CVA proposal to creditors - note that the creditors are not asked to approve this (unlike i and ii) - the administrators just say that they intend to attempt to do so]

 

There is more, a lot of it (unsurprisingly) about approving BDO's costs, but that is the core. There is nothing about the creditors wanting a CVA or even approving that one be pursued. (I cannot see how they could stop one being pursued without undermining BDO's ability to perform the function they are required to perform under the Insolvency Act).

 

So nothing changed as a result of yesterdays vote other than the administrators being given the discretion to liquidate if it proves necessary. I don't think it makes administration more likely (just that one administrative step is taken care of if it proves necessary).

[Martin_T]

If this news had been spun negatively, FA would have spun it positively. He's just a contrary b****r. Iconoclastic I think is the polite term.

[The Gasman]

Okay, just thought that as administrators they would be trying to find the best solution for everyone concerned and would be in a position (legally) to advise FoH the best avenue that would be suitable for the Lithuanian administrators to agree a CVA, just a thought hoping we have BDO (who seem to be good guys) helping a bidder.

 

I know that FoH are aware of alternative / additional sources of funding, and I think it would be extremely naive to think that BDO were unaware of at least that possibility. I have no reason to doubt BDO, or to believe that they will be anything other than 100% legal and professional in their dealings with FoH, but I don't think that would prevent them from making suggestions designed to help get an acceptable proposal for a CVA.

[Francis Albert]

PS meant "liquidation" not "administration" of course in the last sentence of my last post - sorry.

[Deevers]

 

All gone a bit quiet on the Massone front. Have BDO dismissed him totally as a potential bidder - or has he actually shown them the colour of his money?

[HMFC-TILL-I-DIE]

Either you are not understanding it or I am not understanding you.

 

Ukio have not stated they will accept any CVA, merely that BDO can go down that route.

i didnt say that they did i will admit my op could have been worded better i said that they they voted to go down the cva route a step forward a small one but a step forward

[kingantti1874]

 

All gone a bit quiet on the Massone front. Have BDO dismissed him totally as a potential bidder - or has he actually shown them the colour of his money?

 

You missed the bit re $10bn dollars? And wanting to join the foundation...? He's a roaster

[Deevers]

 

 

You missed the bit re $10bn dollars? And wanting to join the foundation...? He's a roaster

Yep, I saw all that - but I note nothing has been said dismissing him and his supposed friends from the process. I thought that there was a deadline of 5pm last Friday for him to put up or shut up. Maybe me but I just find it odd that BDO have said nothing at all about him where as they were quick to rule out Bob Jamieson and his bid. I'd hate to think that he was still in there with a chance.

[kingantti1874]

Yep, I saw all that - but I note nothing has been said dismissing him and his supposed friends from the process. I thought that there was a deadline of 5pm last Friday for him to put up or shut up. Maybe me but I just find it odd that BDO have said nothing at all about him where as they were quick to rule out Bob Jamieson and his bid. I'd hate to think that he was still in there with a chance.

 

I don't think so but you never know.. Frankly I think he doesn't have a pot to piss in but time will tell

[main]

This just shows Hmfc will never die. They're getting really desperate on familylove.net, it's also the same group of them posting on their topic all the time with the profile pic of vlad in a hibs kit. No social life.

[topcat]

If this news had been spun negatively, FA would have spun it positively. He's just a contrary b****r. Iconoclastic I think is the polite term.

 

It's one of those irregular verbs

 

First Person

I am an independent thinker

 

Second Person

You are an iconoclast

 

Third Person

He's a contrary *****

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Yep, I saw all that - but I note nothing has been said dismissing him and his supposed friends from the process. I thought that there was a deadline of 5pm last Friday for him to put up or shut up. Maybe me but I just find it odd that BDO have said nothing at all about him where as they were quick to rule out Bob Jamieson and his bid. I'd hate to think that he was still in there with a chance.

 

A lot of the statements from BDO have made it clear they're taking their instructions on the preferred bidders from the Lithuanians.

 

My read of the situation is that BDO wants desperately to be rid of Massone but the Liths are keeping him around to scare FoH a bit. The amount of indirect evidence for this in BDO's statements is pretty large.

[The Gasman]

A lot of the statements from BDO have made it clear they're taking their instructions on the preferred bidders from the Lithuanians.

 

My read of the situation is that BDO wants desperately to be rid of Massone but the Liths are keeping him around to scare FoH a bit. The amount of indirect evidence for this in BDO's statements is pretty large.

 

I don't see that there's much cloak and dagger / indirect evidence, or anyone trying to "scare" anyone - it all appears to be fairly open.and direct.

 

Ukio's administrator, and now also BDO, have publicly stated that the Foundation need to improve their proposed CVA for it to even be considered. To be honest I'd be amazed if BDO blew off the only other party still at the table, until FoH have put forward something they consider could be acceptable.

[Francis Albert]

 

 

 

A lot of the statements from BDO have made it clear they're taking their instructions on the preferred bidders from the Lithuanians.

 

My read of the situation is that BDO wants desperately to be rid of Massone but the Liths are keeping him around to scare FoH a bit. The amount of indirect evidence for this in BDO's statements is pretty large.

 

Nothing I've read from BDO suggests they are being dictated to by the Lithuanians (or "Liths") . On the contrary, they seem to me to be concerned about the lack of the ability of the Lithuanians to dictate or agree anything.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Nothing I've read from BDO suggests they are being dictated to by the Lithuanians (or "Liths") . On the contrary, they seem to me to be concerned about the lack of the ability of the Lithuanians to dictate or agree anything.

 

"'I have discussed the three improved offers with our Lithuanian administrators today via a conference call and they are going to consider them further and will give me instruction in how to proceed with them in the next few days,' said Jackson."(http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman-2-7475/sport/football/hearts-administration-ubig-collapse-confirmed-1-3015964)

 

"Valnetas knocked back all three offers ? from Angelo ?Massone?s Five Stars Football Ltd, the Foundation of Hearts and HMFC Ltd ? for the club earlier this week." (http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-administrators-say-quick-sale-is-best-1-3022785)

 

I won't excerpt these, but the second through eighth or so paragraph of this article: (http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman-2-7475/sport/football/hearts-administration-bdo-in-liquidation-battle-1-3019834)

 

I don't see that there's much cloak and dagger / indirect evidence, or anyone trying to "scare" anyone - it all appears to be fairly open.and direct.

 

Poor phrasing on my part -- I made it sound worse than it is. However, there are things like this:

 

"BDO?s policy of confidentiality means they say nothing publicly about named bidders for the club. Sources involved in the negotiations have concluded that they are baffled by Massone?s actions, but unless and until he is ruled out of the running they will not question his credibility." (http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman-2-7475/sport/football/hearts-time-runs-out-for-massone-s-due-diligence-1-3037394)

 

There's a lot more of in a similar vein. My impression remains that BDO don't see Massone as a credible bidder, but they have yet to convince the Lithuanians of that, and it would be unprofessional of them to publicly say so. They are absolutely handling this properly, but I do get the sense that they're exasperated by Massone's nonsense.