Charlie-Brown Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If Airdrie United were told they weren't allowed in then why were they allowed to compete with Gretna etc. for the vacant spot in the league? There is nothing to prevent teams applying like Sevco did. Airdrie didn't meet the criteria but Gretna did hence Gretna got in. When they were liquidated they could have applied but they didn't meet entry criteria but Annan did hence they got elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 At this point the short term answer is no Hearts football in 2013/14. A newco could start play, presumably in the Lowland league, in 2014/15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I wish this myth about teams getting liquidated and then relegated to the third division would stop. Any team (other than the Old Firm) that goes out of business has to reform and apply to join the league along with other non-league applicants. Airdrie United had to apply (Gretna won the vote then Airdrie took over Clydebank), Gretna 2008 never applied and went into the East of Scotland League. This could change in the future with the pyramid system i.e. promoting a team from the Highland or Lowland league instead of taking applications but that remains to be seen. Personally, I think there is a chance that if we were liquidated then we'd reform and apply for the Lowland League for 2014/15. There has been talk of it expanding to 16 teams and there will be the possibility for promotion into the league at the end of that season. How many other teams do you know have went into liquidation the firstly applied to stay in the SPL then the SFL and transferred SFA licence, if this scenario has happened on more that two occasions then you can start comparing, at the moment you can't so stop talking about myths, we will be admitted into the lower leagues of the SPFL if there is time and we meet the criteria IF we get liquidated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 They didn't because they didn't meet the entry criteria thus no prospect of entry. Airdrie United sought a league place after Airdrionians were liquidated and were told they wouldn't get in thus they had to change tactics and bought over Clydebank and removed them to Airdrie to ensure the new Airdrie club had league status. What happened with Rangers was highly unusual as they like Airdrie and Gretna simply didn't meet league criteria for entry. THE RANGERS were treated as a special case that is in no doubt. ]DID GRETNA 2008 APPLY TO GAIN ENRTY INTO THE SFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 There is nothing to prevent teams applying like Sevco did. Airdrie didn't meet the criteria but Gretna did hence Gretna got in. When they were liquidated they could have applied but they didn't meet entry criteria but Annan did hence they got elected. Gretna got in because they received more votes from league clubs than Airdrie United did in the voting process. Are you seriously suggesting that the SFA let Airdrie United apply and then after the whole voting process, if Airdrie had been successful in the vote, they'd have turned around and said "actually, Airdrie United aren't eligible so we'll have to do this again". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 we will be admitted into the lower leagues of the SPFL if there is time and we meet the criteria IF we get liquidated. If we are liquidated, then the Newco (if there is one) won't meet the criteria for being admitted to the league set up. Do you think we will get the same dispensations as Sevco did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Also, under the restructuring, the stated plan is to arrange promotion from the Lowland and Highland leagues into the SPFL, but it hasn't been worked out yet. I guarantee you the year we were placed into the Lowland league they would have the playoff worked out for that season. We're no Rangers, but we're the third or fourth biggest club in Scotland, and the suits know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are liquidated, then the Newco (if there is one) won't meet the criteria for being admitted to the league set up. Do you think we will get the same dispensations as Sevco did? My guess is all new entry to SPFL will be through Lowland and Highland league playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are liquidated, then the Newco (if there is one) won't meet the criteria for being admitted to the league set up. Do you think we will get the same dispensations as Sevco did? What dispensation was that and what criteria will we not meet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 What dispensation was that and what criteria will we not meet? Three years of financial records under the old rules. But that was for SFL which doesn't exist anymore, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 ]DID GRETNA 2008 APPLY TO GAIN ENRTY INTO THE SFL? No they didn't they couldn't guarantee their fixtures as they were still being liquidated besides they didn't meet league entry requirements as per the SFLs own rulebook. The rulebook was suspended to allow The Rangers entry and the club's voted to sanction that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 How many other teams do you know have went into liquidation the firstly applied to stay in the SPL then the SFL and transferred SFA licence, if this scenario has happened on more that two occasions then you can start comparing, at the moment you can't so stop talking about myths, we will be admitted into the lower leagues of the SPFL if there is time and we meet the criteria IF we get liquidated. There are obviously no SPL examples. The most prominent example is Airdrieonians going out of business and Airdrie United forming. They still had Airdrie's stadium and met the criteria for the league. They had to apply for a place in the SFL alongside other non-league teams. I think that process would happen to every club other than the Old Firm if the clubs chose to apply for a place in the league and had a suitable stadium in place. I think that the Rangers newco should have had to apply for the vacant spot in the league alongside any other interested teams. You would expect them to win that vote and there are obvious arguments for them winning (fanbase) but it would have been the fairest way and it is what happened with Airdrie United. If we are liquidated, then the Newco (if there is one) won't meet the criteria for being admitted to the league set up. Do you think we will get the same dispensations as Sevco did? I think we would get into the Lowland League even without Tynecastle. Stirling University were allowed in by groundsharing with Stirling Albion. I don't think we'd get straight into League Two though. I guarantee you the year we were placed into the Lowland league they would have the playoff worked out for that season. We're no Rangers, but we're the third or fourth biggest club in Scotland, and the suits know that. There are already going to be playoffs from 2014/15 so it wouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 IIRC, THE Rangers accepted the transfer embargo as part of the hooky deal to get them league status. To be fair to Rangers the transfer embargo was a hooky made up illegal deal by the tribunal too....against the next option of suspending their license for competitions endorsed by the SFA. Edit - I suppose if Massone gets the gig, there is a precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Something that has to be realised is that we are in a totally different situation than Rangers were. David Murray knew years before the event that liquidation was a possibility and that then became an inevitability, even before Whyte came on the scene, so there was a plan, or plans, in place long ago. Duff and Phelps, originally MCR, were in place at least a year before they officially went burst, and were working solely for Rangers with nobody looking out for the creditors. Ukio and UBIG have people looking out for them, their own administrators, who are only interested in getting as much money for their companies' creditors as they can. They might genuinely hope that Hearts achieve a CVA, but they won't let that stand in their way of doing their job properly. Rangers had nobody standing in their way, with the exception of the internet bampots, with everybody involved only working towards 'saving' them, but even with that, they wouldn't have pulled off the sham they have if liquidation had hit during the season. That was why Whyte withheld the Income Tax and NIC money, he knew that it was the end if RFC went into liquidation during the season and that, if, as seems likely, the SPL and SFA were aware of the situation, was why they allowed it to happen. The SFA and SPFL will undoubtedly do all they can to help Hearts, it's part of their function, but really there isn't much they can do; no amount of rule bending saves Hearts if they go into liquidation during the season. This is not all bad news for Hearts, the club, or brand, call it what you will, becomes virtually worthless in liquidation, as there will be no team and no league to play in, and a very uncertain future for anyone who buys the 'club'. This is all regardless of the oldclub/newclub scenario. Hearts as a going concern, without Tynecastle, will be worth in excess of ?1m, as a liquidated club/company only a fraction of this. Ukio and UBIG's administrators will know this and will almost certainly be keen to sell the club as a going concern, but if they are not happy with the price offered for the club with Tynecastle, then it might mean the club is sold, for, say, ?1m, and the stadium is later put out for offers, going to the highest bidder. The administrators then raise the same as they would for Tynecastle in liquidation, plus ?1m. The good thing about this is Hearts would be safe, the administrators will have got the best deal for the creditors, with Hearts paying rental on the stadium meantime, increasing the creditor pot. In time the stadium would go up for sale and the new owners of Hearts could bid for it, and perhaps produce the best bid (all the arguments for why no one else would want it would then come into play), creating the best possible deal for all concerned. I would be very surprise if the Massone consortium were interested in this scenario, but I'd be very disappointed in the FOH if this was not something they were at least looking at and had a contingency plan in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Gretna were an SPL club when they were liquidated albeit a relegated one. They didn't gain entry into the SFL and their SPL share was handed over to the promoted club. A new club Gretna 2008 were formed and planned to replace Annan Athletic in the South of Scotland league when they got admitted to the SFL but somehow Gretna 2008 ended up joining the East of Scotland league in their lower division not sure why possibly a timing issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1874 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 At this point the short term answer is no Hearts football in 2013/14. A newco could start play, presumably in the Lowland league, in 2014/15. Big problem would be where do we play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettigrewsstylist Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Apols if this has been addressed elsewhere. I presume we'd automatically be relegated, but to where? least of my concerns tbh, who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE16 3LN Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 There are obviously no SPL examples. The most prominent example is Airdrieonians going out of business and Airdrie United forming. They still had Airdrie's stadium and met the criteria for the league. They had to apply for a place in the SFL alongside other non-league teams. I think that process would happen to every club other than the Old Firm if the clubs chose to apply for a place in the league and had a suitable stadium in place. I think that the Rangers newco should have had to apply for the vacant spot in the league alongside any other interested teams. You would expect them to win that vote and there are obvious arguments for them winning (fanbase) but it would have been the fairest way and it is what happened with Airdrie United. I think we would get into the Lowland League even without Tynecastle. Stirling University were allowed in by groundsharing with Stirling Albion. I don't think we'd get straight into League Two though. There are already going to be playoffs from 2014/15 so it wouldn't be an issue. I thought Airdrie United Newco bought Clydebanks place. Or at least that's what they were accused of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winston churchill Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are put through the blender,what happens to our season tickets ? I felt a bit iffy about handing over ?720 when BDO gave us the call to arms speech.I was in and out the ticket office three times that day before handing over my cash,and I let my heart rule my head,but felt it could end up breasts up. Thankfully i never bought into the wee dwarfs shares,or buy your season ticket early scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 What dispensation was that and what criteria will we not meet? Sale/transfer of shares (SPL, as was) or SFA memberships can only be between football clubs. Sevco Scotland weren't a football club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermit the Krog Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are put through the blender,what happens to our season tickets ? Serious? If we are liquidated we die. Any new Hearts won't be playing football anywhere for a year. Losing your season ticket would be the least of most peoples (not you obv) worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonmaroon Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The important aspect is surely the spfl/ prem(?) 'share' that we currently own. Any newco would presumably look to buy this too but there'd need to be a vote to determine whether the newco would be allowed to take ownership of it. In sevco's case, that vote (across all spl clubs, no?) went against them for a variety of reasons, not all of which we share... But I suspect (thought i'd read somewhere) that there's been a change to the rules in the creation of the new spfl and that any such vote would no longer be held across all clubs but would go to the spfl board? That's not to say the outcome would differ, but perhaps the pressure of fans - as shown re sevco - might not be felt quite as hard in that circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryce9a Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Sale/transfer of shares (SPL, as was) or SFA memberships can only be between football clubs. Sevco Scotland weren't a football club. From the SFA rules... Any other application for transfer of membership will be reviewed by the Board, which will have complete discretion to reject or to grant such application on such terms and conditions as the Board may think fit. The SFA reserve complete discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watt-Zeefuik Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Big problem would be where do we play? Murrayfield, Meadowbank, Ainslie, or yes, Feckless Road. Any of them would happily take our money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Canada Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are liquidated once the season has started there will be a massive meltdown for Scottish football as a whole. An 11 team league with points adjustments and free weekends will see many fans giving up going to matches. I think it would be a catastrophe that football in this country would take a very long time to recover from. As far as we are concerned it would be over. No football for at least a season, no ground, a disillusioned fan base and probably rival fan groups trying to rekindle the club from the ashes. It doesn't bear thinking about. On a more positive note, I really don't think liquidation is in anyone's best interest so won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermit the Krog Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are liquidated once the season has started there will be a massive meltdown for Scottish football as a whole. An 11 team league with points adjustments and free weekends will see many fans giving up going to matches. I think it would be a catastrophe that football in this country would take a very long time to recover from. Every cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I thought Airdrie United Newco bought Clydebanks place. Or at least that's what they were accused of. They did buy out Clydebank but only after they had applied for a place in the league and lost out in the vote to Gretna and had no route left into the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Watcher Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 There is nothing to prevent teams applying like Sevco did. Airdrie didn't meet the criteria but Gretna did hence Gretna got in. When they were liquidated they could have applied but they didn't meet entry criteria but Annan did hence they got elected. Airdrie definitely met the criteria - and made it through to a final vote with Gretna (5 other clubs being eliminated along the way - Gala, Cove Rangers, Preston Ath, Huntley and Edinburgh City). The clubs then voted 16-11 in Gretna's favour. If they didnt meet the criteria then they wouldn't have made it that far! Rules change though - so if it was to take place now then it might be different. The main factor for Airdrie not being elected (or that given) was that some clubs felt it would set a bad precedence for clubs to get rid their debt and start again. That can no longer be used as a reason given the Rangers situation and what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Watcher Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Gretna were an SPL club when they were liquidated albeit a relegated one. They didn't gain entry into the SFL and their SPL share was handed over to the promoted club. A new club Gretna 2008 were formed and planned to replace Annan Athletic in the South of Scotland league when they got admitted to the SFL but somehow Gretna 2008 ended up joining the East of Scotland league in their lower division not sure why possibly a timing issue? The SFL actually demoted Gretna to division 3 (following their relegation) due to uncertainty over whether they could complete their fixtures. They were given a week to find a buyer or faced expulsion. When one couldn't be found they actually resigned from the SFL and were liquidated. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/other-sports/sfl-expulsion-deadline-is-harsh-says-978864 http://www.timesandstar.co.uk/gretna-quit-scottish-football-league-1.117693?referrerPath=2.1708 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Beni of Gorgie Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 They have a problem with us right now in that we are a few days away from the first KO of the new season, we are in admin and the word liquidation is being banded around freely right now. If we are liquidated the top league becomes an 11 team no relegation, winners already decided, sponsor-less farce, which will have no interest to anyone......the SPFL's problem not the SFA's but the over-all damage to the "product" is a concern for both governing bodies. Should we survive and they slap us with a host of sanctions then its as good as an 11 team league and may actually contribute to it becoming an 11 team league. IMO, Donkey and his cohorts will be having an "off the record" with the SFA and requesting another member of their committee be unavailable or some such thing to prevent any SFA ruling right now. If the SFA ignore this advice and bash on with a fit and proper punishment (as they see it) then they can live with the fall out from it. The coefficient will continue to plummet, more teams will struggle financially as gates drop and less sponsorship money is available. As a governing body they should be acting in the best interests of the game, Livingston, Dunfermline, Rangers, Hearts..........tip of the iceberg IMO. I agree, how can any Scottish club trade it's way out. England will always have a big bux get out, Scotland has nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzyonthefence Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Three years of financial records under the old rules. But that was for SFL which doesn't exist anymore, of course. Airdrie Utd, as a newco, didn't have 3 years accounts either but they still met the SFL joining criteria - they just lost out in the final vote, that's why they didn't get in and ended up having to buy out Clydebank. So was the 3 years accounts a new rule between then and RFC going into liquidation or was it only a SPL requirement, or is it a myth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Airdrie Utd, as a newco, didn't have 3 years accounts either but they still met the SFL joining criteria - they just lost out in the final vote, that's why they didn't get in and ended up having to buy out Clydebank. So was the 3 years accounts a new rule between then and RFC going into liquidation or was it only a SPL requirement, or is it a myth? It was an SFA requirement. Not sure when it dates from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Porcupine Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If we are put through the blender,what happens to our season tickets ? I felt a bit iffy about handing over ?720 when BDO gave us the call to arms speech.I was in and out the ticket office three times that day before handing over my cash,and I let my heart rule my head,but felt it could end up breasts up. Thankfully i never bought into the wee dwarfs shares,or buy your season ticket early scam. If you paid with a debit or credit card you should be ok getting a chargeback actioned through your bank under Section 75 CCA. You're goosed if you pay by cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 It seems the tribute acts fans think a stich up is being planned in the event of us liquidating. http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=256090&st=0 I'm not sure how feasible us continuing would be? Green had 2 offers on the table. One for CVA and one for liquidation where Duff and Phelps had pre agreed the asset sale. So he had some form of a going concern already agreed and a summer to negotiate with the authorities. I don't get this feeling from the Lithuanian administrators that they are willing to agree an either or option with the current bidders. If we are liquidated we have no immediate buyer willing to run a football club edit - and buy the assets at an acceptable price - at a moments notice during the season and I can't see normal protracted negotiations with the authorities being agreed within days. Timing as always is vital. We took the chance in delaying admin so as not to get relegated, Rangers did the same based on being able to see the season out so as not to be liquidated mid season. Edit 2 of course the SPFL will be looking at options to minimalise damage, just as the SPL had been since October 2011 when the SFA / SPL were informed off the record by Rangers that liquidation mid season was a real possibility. If newco hearts somehow found a ground, retained a team etc within a few days and remained in the SPFL, all merry hell would break loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audrey65 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 All clubs are supposed to be able to provide 3 years financial accounts. Obviously newly created clubs Gretna 2008 and Sevco The Rangers couldn't provide these as they'd only just been created. The Rangers were given entry but Gretna had to seek entry at a lower level as they didn't meet entry criteria neither did Sevco. I am told thats a myth. The three years requirement is association membership in order to be granted a UEFA licence, which is a requirement to compete in all the top divisions in UEFA. The SFA seem content to let people thionk its the accounts issue as by not recognising three years association membership (this transferred from Rangers to New Rangers) they are basically stating that New Rangers are a new club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 It seems the tribute acts fans think a stich up is being planned in the event of us liquidating. http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=256090&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecce Romanov Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 I just hope that the mention of liquidation is just posturing from the Lithuanian administrators. If I was them, I'd knock back the first bids too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audrey65 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Airdrie Utd, as a newco, didn't have 3 years accounts either but they still met the SFL joining criteria - they just lost out in the final vote, that's why they didn't get in and ended up having to buy out Clydebank. So was the 3 years accounts a new rule between then and RFC going into liquidation or was it only a SPL requirement, or is it a myth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 No they didn't they couldn't guarantee their fixtures as they were still being liquidated besides they didn't meet league entry requirements as per the SFLs own rulebook. The rulebook was suspended to allow The Rangers entry and the club's voted to sanction that. You do realise that Gretna 2008 was formed and accepted into the EoSFL before Gretna FC were officially liquidated, so please stop bringing them into any conversation as it is totally irrelevant, as I keep saying if the worse happens and we have time and meet the criteria then I cannot see any reason as to why we would not still be part of the SPFL, but time is running out and hopefully that won't happen anyway and make this thread null and void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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