Ukio to be Liquidated (merged threads)

[broony1985]

Suppose it's a bit of good news for the moment.

 

 

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/ukio-bankas-administrators-vow-to-sell-hearts-on-1-2963439

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you're slavering about.

 

It is rudi's insistence that Robinson could have sold to someone else other than Vlad, because he was "told on good authority".

 

Even if he was, it is immaterial. No one else made an offer. Vlad was the only show in town.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

You sure, are you, bearing in mind the abuse you and other decided to try and give me because I had been told on good authority that there were other interested parties when your vlad took over, man you can twist thing when it fit's when you want.

 

Hopefully any interested parties will get their fingers out quickly and start bidding.

 

 

This really is garbage! I cannot believe that you are continuing to trot this out.

 

The only other parties showing any interest were Pat the Plumber and Peter McGrail. The latter had an unworkable scheme involving all the cash coming from the Council and the fans. The former - much like yourself was a complete fantasist.

 

If anyone else was genuinely interested, then surely they would have made some kind of move before Tynecastle was sold - end of!

[ericb]

Suppose it's a bit of good news for the moment.

 

 

http://www.scotsman....ts-on-1-2963439

 

How can they vow to sell what they don't own?

[tartofmidlothian]

"Ukio Bankas has now to deal with lots of debts and return the funds to its creditors," he explained.

"In the ongoing processes we must at all times consider the best interest of the creditors of Ukio Bankas.

"Heart of Midlothian Plc is one of the companies indebted to the bank. There are several possible alternatives to dealing with this case but our initial assessment indicates that most likely the most extensive return for Ukio Bankas creditors may be achieved by keeping the club operating.

"For now we have no reason or desire to harm Hearts so our primary initiative, having solved the regulatory and other issues, is contemplated to be the sale of Hearts."

 

Not exactly a vow, but still good news.

[bobskeldon]

IF the club is now at the 'real' stage of being available and would be available at a knock down price, how many of the initial 4000 pledgers would be willing to 'donate/pledge' a significant lump sum to get the purchase price together e.g. 4000 pledgers x ?500 = ?2m. However, if 50% of the pledgers could 'donate/pledge' ?1000 the capital sum available to buy the club would be ?3m. If 25% of the pledgers 'donated/pledged' ?2500, 25% 'donated/pledged' a ?1000 and 50% 'donated/pledged' ?500 the sum available to potentially buy the club would be ?4.5m in cash! I also think there may be individuals/organisations willing to 'donate/pledge' significantly greater amounts thus reducing the burden on fans with less ability to 'donate/pledge' larger amounts.

[Armageddon]

I want the sale to go through but only if it's ?5.1M

 

5-1 till I die!!!

[tartofmidlothian]

I want the sale to go through but only if it's ?5.1M

 

5-1 till I die!!!

 

I'd rather it was 1.5m.

[Coco]

On the Ukio Bankas liquidation itself - it is going to be interesting when or if the liquidators/regulators pierce the veil of what was actually happening at Ukio Bankas. Who were making the decisions, how did capital get allocated, how did so much depositor money end up funding the vanity purchases of a significant shareholder etc.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

IF the club is now at the 'real' stage of being available and would be available at a knock down price, how many of the initial 4000 pledgers would be willing to 'donate/pledge' a significant lump sum to get the purchase price together e.g. 4000 pledgers x ?500 = ?2m. However, if 50% of the pledgers could 'donate/pledge' ?1000 the capital sum available to buy the club would be ?3m. If 25% of the pledgers 'donated/pledged' ?2500, 25% 'donated/pledged' a ?1000 and 50% 'donated/pledged' ?500 the sum available to potentially buy the club would be ?4.5m in cash! I also think there may be individuals/organisations willing to 'donate/pledge' significantly greater amounts thus reducing the burden on fans with less ability to 'donate/pledge' larger amounts.

 

As a 'pledger' I couldn't commit a large sum. Nor will I borrow to do so.

[ando]

So now potential buyers have someone (the liquidators)to deal with?

Hope thats the case

[Jambof3tornado]

 

 

As a 'pledger' I couldn't commit a large sum. Nor will I borrow to do so.

This.

[The Future's Maroon]

<p>

I've seen little evidence that anyone other than FOH are prepared to make a bid (though others may yet show their hand)

I am not saying it is what I want but remember Massone OFFERED ?4.5m a while back...thats more than anyone (FoH included) have done. I wouldnt be shocked to see a sudden bid from them come flying in shortly.

[Heartbeat]

I didnt like the " For Now " bit though,

 

good news though and if anyone remotely interested a sensible non p*** taking bid should surely move this forward, I know its complex but they will be taking a bath on the debts generally anyway and there brief is to maximize the return and minimize the debt so if the two things come together i.e They accept a loss and FOH (for example) dont try and steal it then it could be deal on

[Jamboelite]

Can this not have gone under the other thread ?

[TheOak88]

I wouldn't really trust anything that is being said just now - how can they vow to sell it on when they don't even know if anyone will put in an offer yet?

[Splog]

It might be worth remembering:

1- We still don't know if Ukio's administrator's actually can sell the club. All the information we have suggests that Ukio only have a claim on 29.9% of the club shares (a claim not yet realised). The administrator did, however, say he had a claim on a controlling share of Hearts. Quite what he means by a "claim", i've no idea.

2- Until we hear otherwise, it looks like UBIG are still in control of how/if we are sold.

3- UBIG is a mess. No directors, the entity itself has its shares frozen due to a court case against Vlad, the companies that own shares in UBIG are largely part owned by Vlad, and we've no idea if there's anyone at UBIG capable of actually making a deal.

 

With the information in the public domain, it looks like the only way to get the club sold is if UBIG goes into administration.

[TheOak88]

And they have set a precedent that we should be allowed to follow - its a good enough starting point.

 

If Rangers - a bigger club than Hearts, can go for a pittance - then the liquidators will need to take this into account that this is the going rate for Scottish clubs - and as a result set their expectations along these lines.

 

Its just a set of guidelines - but I don't think you could hope for a more appropriate set of circumstances in the recent past.

I understand where you are coming from but surely the Lithuanian Liquidators won't really care about the future of Hearts as a football club (unlike Duff and Phelps) and surely the SPL/SFA won't really care enough about Hearts to try and pressurise the Lithuanian Liquidators? Regardless of precedents from previous clubs the Lithuanian Liquidators will have a price in mind of what Hearts/Tynecastle are worth and will probably want that figure met.

[Jambo, Goodbye]

I think what they are trying to say is if anyone wants to buy these shares we have then go ahead and put in a (realistic) offer so we can reclaim some of the 15m. If UKIO isn't going to be around in the future then it may not be possible to repay any of the 15m over a longer term plan.

 

They need to make whatever capital they can and selling assets rather than calling in debts that can't be paid immediately may be the only way they can achieve this?

[Boris]

Regardless of precedents from previous clubs the Lithuanian Liquidators will have a price in mind of what Hearts/Tynecastle are worth and will probably want that figure met.

 

But if no one is prepared to pay that figure, they end up with nothing and a fire sale of assets to recoup what they can. A bit of horsetrading to be done, I'd say.

 

Will be interesting to see who buys Tynecastle. That, for me, is the key.

[rudi]

Perhaps they know full well that UBIG will soon be in administration as well, now they hold, if my reading of this is correct, 55-60% of the shares which are really worth very little if anything Ukio's admin's hold the key stone, the ground, so I would say they are in pole position to sell anything worth while selling.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

But if no one is prepared to pay that figure, they end up with nothing and a fire sale of assets to recoup what they can. A bit of horsetrading to be done, I'd say.

 

Will be interesting to see who buys Tynecastle. That, for me, is the key.

The first thing that would have to happen though is that they would have to exercise the security for us defaulting. Have we defaulted?

[Jambos_1874]

Finally a bit of positive news from someone who is about as ITK regarding our situation as anyone else. Lets hope that the FoH can get a credible bid together ASAP so we can overcome this constant threat of administration/liquidation.

[tartofmidlothian]

The first thing that would have to happen though is that they would have to exercise the security for us defaulting. Have we defaulted?

 

Surely what they do is sell the security on, and then as long as the security is more than the value of the stadium then whoever owns it actually owns the stadium? Bearing in mind that a 15m security's a 15m security, even if it's sold for ?1.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Surely what they do is sell the security on, and then as long as the security is more than the value of the stadium then whoever owns it actually owns the stadium? Bearing in mind that a 15m security's a 15m security, even if it's sold for ?1.

Exactly.

 

The question is whether they create an auction for it or not. A friendly buyer and that debt is effectively expunged.

[TheOak88]

But if no one is prepared to pay that figure, they end up with nothing and a fire sale of assets to recoup what they can. A bit of horsetrading to be done, I'd say.

 

Will be interesting to see who buys Tynecastle. That, for me, is the key.

Defo agree there is room for negotiation but I was just making the point that I am not convinced the Lithuanian Liquidators will accept a ridiculously low offer for Tynecastle and the Club in the same way as Duff and Phelps did in the Rangers saga last summer.

[Gene Parmesan]

Whoever buys Tynecastle must have the club really, because the shares are worth squat without the stadium (hence UBIG's shareholding being next to useless).

[Boris]

Defo agree there is room for negotiation but I was just making the point that I am not convinced the Lithuanian Liquidators will accept a ridiculously low offer for Tynecastle and the Club in the same way as Duff and Phelps did in the Rangers saga last summer.

 

I'd agree with that!

[Dr. Bapswent]

Exactly.

 

The question is whether they create an auction for it or not. A friendly buyer and that debt is effectively expunged.

 

The liquidators comment on wishing no harm to the club would suggest selling to a party that is willing to keep the club alive, rather than cannibalise the assets.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

The liquidators comment on wishing no harm to the club would suggest selling to a party that is willing to keep the club alive, rather than cannibalise the assets.

Indeed. We can but hope.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Indeed. We can but hope.

 

id also imagine that the liquidators are also aware of the interested parties in the club - so will at least be able to look to these for offers.

[babertonjambo]

Exactly.

 

The question is whether they create an auction for it or not. A friendly buyer and that debt is effectively expunged.

 

If the 29.9% shareholding also comes with the security then the buyer would effectively own one third of the club plus the ground, which surely makes UBIG's shareholding worthless given the ?10 million debt that would come with it?

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

So, as predicted, no doomsday and a bloody good chance the club will come out of this with new owners and more importantly, be debt free.

 

Will say again, more than happy to have the current board to stay in charge until the Lithuanian side of things gets sorted out completely, although it would probably be much better for the club to be sold outright before UBIG go tits up as well, only to stave off the threat off points deductions though.

 

If only the knickerpisser's would have listened..

[Mr Nobody]

Perhaps this news along with the supposed reduction in the wage bill will convince the non ST renewers that it is worth buying a ticket to keep things going for another couple of months to avoid 15 point deduction?

[Jambo, Goodbye]

So, as predicted, no doomsday and a bloody good chance the club will come out of this with new owners and more importantly, be debt free.

 

Will say again, more than happy to have the current board to stay in charge until the Lithuanian side of things gets sorted out completely, although it would probably be much better for the club to be sold outright before UBIG go tits up as well, only to stave off the threat off points deductions though.

 

If only the knickerpisser's would have listened..

 

The idea that we could be debt free next season would create so much seethe on wivbinrobbed.net I think Leith would implode into a smouldering crater in the ground.

 

I can't quite see us coming through this in that good a shape mind.

[jambogjh]

 

 

They could probably sell them separately but they must be worthless to anyone who doesn't own the stadium, unless they have the backing of the fans. For example if a developer buys Tynie and FoH buys the shares in the club, then surely the fans would follow them to reestablish the club elsewhere. Although any developer would probably have to get through a huge fan campaign to have them give up and sell the stadium back to us. You'd like to think so anyway.

 

Were you thinking of buying?

The cost of pulling down the stadium for any developer on top of the purchase price would make the investment pointless.

[tartofmidlothian]

If the 29.9% shareholding also comes with the security then the buyer would effectively own one third of the club plus the ground, which surely makes UBIG's shareholding worthless given the ?10 million debt that would come with it?

 

Also bear in mind that 29.9% could be added to the amount already owned by fans from pre-Vlad days and the last share issue, so that's probably almost 40%.

[rudi]

They could probably sell them separately but they must be worthless to anyone who doesn't own the stadium, unless they have the backing of the fans. For example if a developer buys Tynie and FoH buys the shares in the club, then surely the fans would follow them to reestablish the club elsewhere. Although any developer would probably have to get through a huge fan campaign to have them give up and sell the stadium back to us. You'd like to think so anyway.

 

Were you thinking of buying?

Aye, ahem, no I was just wondering if buying the shares separately would give you any sort of controlling interest whether that would be any good for investors or interested parties who could then deal with UBIG, just a thought thats all no angles or anything like that.

[Footballfirst]

Surely what they do is sell the security on, and then as long as the security is more than the value of the stadium then whoever owns it actually owns the stadium? Bearing in mind that a 15m security's a 15m security, even if it's sold for ?1.

 

Whoever buys Tynecastle must have the club really, because the shares are worth squat without the stadium (hence UBIG's shareholding being next to useless).

 

Just to be clear, it is Hearts who own Tynecastle, not UBIG (at least directly) or Ukio.

 

What is effectively up for sale from Lithuanian administrators / liquidators will be Hearts debt to UBIG, Hearts debt to Ukio (complete with securities), shares held by UBIG and Ukio (if pledge taken up).

 

The shares themselves are effectively worthless so it is the debt purchase that is key.

[Tams bird]

So no one really knows......

[tartofmidlothian]

Just to be clear, it is Hearts who own Tynecastle, not UBIG (at least directly) or Ukio.

 

What is effectively up for sale from Lithuanian administrators / liquidators will be Hearts debt to UBIG, Hearts debt to Ukio (complete with securities), shares held by UBIG and Ukio (if pledge taken up).

 

The shares themselves are effectively worthless so it is the debt purchase that is key.

 

But if you controlled the security you'd essentially control the stadium and whoever's in that position has a big say in the future of the club, right?

 

Also, do you think the Ukio and UBIG debts are likely to be dealt with by two sets of administrators and purchased separately? Surely unless Vlad has the desire or the authority to sell ASAP, the administrator/liquidator doesn't get a say until UBIG is passed to them, in which case we'll probably be deducted points before it's sold on. Or alternatively there could be a buyer lined up and the SPL might decide to be extremely lenient and suspend a points deduction provided we don't default on anything in future?

 

I'm just thinking out loud now, sorry.

[Gene Parmesan]

Just to be clear, it is Hearts who own Tynecastle, not UBIG (at least directly) or Ukio.

 

What is effectively up for sale from Lithuanian administrators / liquidators will be Hearts debt to UBIG, Hearts debt to Ukio (complete with securities), shares held by UBIG and Ukio (if pledge taken up).

 

The shares themselves are effectively worthless so it is the debt purchase that is key.

 

I know. But the destination of the security is key, right?

[rudi]

But if you controlled the security you'd essentially control the stadium and whoever's in that position has a big say in the future of the club, right?

 

Also, do you think the Ukio and UBIG debts are likely to be dealt with by two sets of administrators and purchased separately? Surely unless Vlad has the desire or the authority to sell ASAP, the administrator/liquidator doesn't get a say until UBIG is passed to them, in which case we'll probably be deducted points before it's sold on. Or alternatively there could be a buyer lined up and the SPL might decide to be extremely lenient and suspend a points deduction provided we don't default on anything in future?

 

I'm just thinking out loud now, sorry.

ToM, my head is now bursting with all the what ifs and could be's, it's been said before there is more to this than meets the eye IMO, I think well get one answer then find that there is another 5 questions, I do believe that FF has a fair grip on what's going on but I would doubt very much even he knows the overall picture.

 

I think there will be more fall outs yet to come so batten down the hatches it could get right bitter.

[The Gasman]

 

The idea that we could be debt free next season would create so much seethe on wivbinrobbed.net I think Leith would implode into a smouldering crater in the ground.

 

If this could be guaranteed, I'd happily pay a second time for my season ticket..!

[tartofmidlothian]

ToM, my head is now bursting with all the what ifs and could be's, it's been said before there is more to this than meets the eye IMO, I think well get one answer then find that there is another 5 questions, I do believe that FF has a fair grip on what's going on but I would doubt very much even he knows the overall picture.

 

I think there will be more fall outs yet to come so batten down the hatches it could get right bitter.

 

Ominous.

 

Sorry FF, you're one of the JKB oracles thought.

[rudi]

Ominous.

 

Sorry FF, you're one of the JKB oracles thought.

Wasn't having a go at you bud in any way, wasn't trying to say you don't have a good idea of whats going down, it was more of an observation about the whole mess it's just a pity we don't have someone from the Hearts side keeping us informed, all you get from serge is " I don't know" or "so I've been told" without even giving anything away FFS he couldn't even confirm or deny his gaffer had had an "ahem" stroke.

[tartofmidlothian]

Wasn't having a go at you bud in any way, wasn't trying to say you don't have a good idea of whats going down, it was more of an observation about the whole mess it's just a pity we don't have someone from the Hearts side keeping us informed, all you get from serge is " I don't know" or "so I've been told" without even giving anything away FFS he couldn't even confirm or deny his gaffer had had an "ahem" stroke.

 

No offence taken. You're right though, it's easy to get bogged down in what-ifs on here. Good fun though, when the news is good.

[Footballfirst]

We may end up with two sets of administrators, but the key one for Hearts interests will be Ukio's.

 

The reason for that is that the bulk of UBIG's debts will be owed (maybe even secured) to Ukio, hence the Ukio administrator will be able to dictate to a large extent how UBIG's assets are disposed of.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While the security and the debt to Ukio are linked, it is the status of the debt that will determine what happens to the security, indeed the security could well become worthless.

 

Let's say FoH agreed a 10p in the ? settlement of the debt with Ukio. That would cost ?1.5M and even if the security wasn't assigned to FoH it would no longer have any value to Ukio as there would be no debt attached to it.

 

However, let's say Massone comes in and buys the debt and the security from Ukio for ?3M (20p in the ?). Massone could, in theory, have the debt and the security assigned to him. That could leave Hearts still with ?15M of debt and the security over Tynecastle assigned to him (out of the frying pan, into the fire). That is what Craig Whyte tried to do with RFC. He had the Lloyds debt (and securities over Ibrox and Murray Pak) assigned, at full value, to Wavetower, leaving RFC owing Wavetower ?18M instead of Lloyds. The only problem with that was the Whyte paid off Lloyds with money from future RFC Season Tickets sales via Ticketus, meaning that RFC had actually paid off Lloyds themselves.

 

Hearts fans should be wary about how any deal to purchase the club is structured, as we could easily end up with the same debts owed to a different owner.

[jambo89]

We may end up with two sets of administrators, but the key one for Hearts interests will be Ukio's.

 

The reason for that is that the bulk of UBIG's debts will be owed (maybe even secured) to Ukio, hence the Ukio administrator will be able to dictate to a large extent how UBIG's assets are disposed of.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While the security and the debt to Ukio are linked, it is the status of the debt that will determine what happens to the security, indeed the security could well become worthless.

 

Let's say FoH agreed a 10p in the ? settlement of the debt with Ukio. That would cost ?1.5M and even if the security wasn't assigned to FoH it would no longer have any value to Ukio as there would be no debt attached to it.

 

However, let's say Massone comes in and buys the debt and the security from Ukio for ?3M (20p in the ?). Massone could, in theory, have the debt and the security assigned to him. That could leave Hearts still with ?15M of debt and the security over Tynecastle assigned to him (out of the frying pan, into the fire). That is what Craig Whyte tried to do with RFC. He had the Lloyds debt (and securities over Ibrox and Murray Pak) assigned, at full value, to Wavetower, leaving RFC owing Wavetower ?18M instead of Lloyds. The only problem with that was the Whyte paid off Lloyds with money from future RFC Season Tickets sales via Ticketus, meaning that RFC had actually paid off Lloyds themselves.

 

Hearts fans should be wary about how any deal to purchase the club is structured, as we could easily end up with the same debts owed to a different owner.

 

So in other words we need to wait for the 'scarf above the head' type scenario in regards to FoH

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

We may end up with two sets of administrators, but the key one for Hearts interests will be Ukio's.

 

The reason for that is that the bulk of UBIG's debts will be owed (maybe even secured) to Ukio, hence the Ukio administrator will be able to dictate to a large extent how UBIG's assets are disposed of.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

While the security and the debt to Ukio are linked, it is the status of the debt that will determine what happens to the security, indeed the security could well become worthless.

 

Let's say FoH agreed a 10p in the ? settlement of the debt with Ukio. That would cost ?1.5M and even if the security wasn't assigned to FoH it would no longer have any value to Ukio as there would be no debt attached to it.

 

However, let's say Massone comes in and buys the debt and the security from Ukio for ?3M (20p in the ?). Massone could, in theory, have the debt and the security assigned to him. That could leave Hearts still with ?15M of debt and the security over Tynecastle assigned to him (out of the frying pan, into the fire). That is what Craig Whyte tried to do with RFC. He had the Lloyds debt (and securities over Ibrox and Murray Pak) assigned, at full value, to Wavetower, leaving RFC owing Wavetower ?18M instead of Lloyds. The only problem with that was the Whyte paid off Lloyds with money from future RFC Season Tickets sales via Ticketus, meaning that RFC had actually paid off Lloyds themselves.

 

Hearts fans should be wary about how any deal to purchase the club is structured, as we could easily end up with the same debts owed to a different owner.

 

In the Massone scenario. Could this be pre-empted by getting the smug bastart put on a list of not fit and proper owners? Then we would have one less hyena to deal with.