Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[jack D and coke]

 

I dunno about other people. but I plan to read a good chunk of the White Paper.

I'm planning to read it all.

[Ulysses]

That is all good but the point is that relative to their output public debt is higher in both Iceland and Ireland than in the UK. It has not been "cleared" in either country.

 

Nope, the point is that the SNP references to Ireland and Iceland as economic comparators for Scotland were sensible when they were made, and would still be sensible today despite the difficulties both countries have had over the last five years.

[Das Root]

 

 

Keeping the pound is undoubtedly a shite long-term policy, but do you genuinely believe it's anything but a short-term political fix by the SNP to stop the entire debate being about the mother ******* groat?

 

Can you imagine how that would go

 

 

Exact, we would have our own currency within 10yrs imo.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Keeping the pound is undoubtedly a shite long-term policy, but do you genuinely believe it's anything but a short-term political fix by the SNP to stop the entire debate being about the mother ******* groat?

 

Can you imagine how that would go

Absolutely. It is political. The converse of trying to assure undecided voters that the pound in your pocket will be the same is also complete shite because, unless fiscal policies are aligned, a sterling zone is unworkable.

[Das Root]

 

Absolutely. It is political. The converse of trying to assure undecided voters that the pound in your pocket will be the same is also complete shite because, unless fiscal policies are aligned, a sterling zone is unworkable.

 

 

Maybe just move on then? We all know it's a temp thing. We all know the arguments against and the reasons why it's been proposed. And we all accept there will be a Scottish currency in the long-term.

[JamboX2]

I would not be quick to assume a currency union could just be dissolved. A nation choosing to leave such a union is a dent to the international confidence of said currency, likely meaning that the UK would be reluctant to see a member leave a future Sterling Zone. It would also be a political coup by the SNP to achieve it in the face of current opposition (well mooted opposition), hence becoming hard to remove in a political context. I'd imagine a currency union will be long term. It would be a bad choice. It would be wrong to even make it a red line in the negotiations. It's simply a bad policy chosen for political convienience. As the Scotland on Sunday editorial put it - this is a policy designed to dispell the old "independence in Europe" line and replace it with "independence in Britain". Especially when you consider the number of policies being presented by the government as "sharing" institutions.

 

On the Andrew Bell show tonight, he says in the article he's written in the SoS that it may be possible to follow a nordic model of governance with devolution max. An interesting point. His key point, however, in the article was the success of the Nordic nations is based on monetary independence. A thing cheerished in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and much missed in Finland. His show also points to how different the nordic systems are - a liberal, centre-right model in Sweden and nominally Finland and a centre-left model of state provision in Denmark and Norway. Looking forward to it, however, I think it may show more of the grey than a black and white prospectus on such models. I hope it will actually.

 

On the White Paper - I will most likely endeavour to have a read of it. It'd be daft not to. However, the idea it should have a series of proposed SNP policies drafted by civil servants is something I'm a tad unhappy with. If they want to draw up a proposed manifesto for 2016, do it on your own funds not by near compromising civil service impartiality.

[Coco]

 

 

Nope, the point is that the SNP references to Ireland and Iceland as economic comparators for Scotland were sensible when they were made, and would still be sensible today despite the difficulties both countries have had over the last five years.

 

Those are your points. The poster was negatively comparing the UK's debt position with that of Iceland and Ireland where the debt had been cleared. As is now clear their debt positions are worse and not cleared.

[JamboX2]

Norway/UAE etc apart, there's hardly a country in the world that wasn't affected by the greed of the banks and are now forced to suck up huge debts that came from bailing them out however; As Uly noted earlier in the thread, countries like Iceland are dealing with it far better than the UK is ?1.3Trillion & counting.

 

Independence is a chance for us to do something about it.

 

Just saying Ireland suffered or Greece is a mess doesn't mean that Scotland will go "tits-up" if there's a yes vote.

 

My boss asked me last week IF Scotland was independent when the banks collapsed would we have been able to bail them out?

My reply was that IF Scotland was independent we would have had 40 years of oil tax receipts into the Scottish exchequer & we would have been able to pay for the bail out in the mountain of cash we would have amassed without the need to borrow and in-debt our great grandchildren (assuming the same amount of deregulation in the Scottish banking system existed).

 

80% of Norway's oil profits stay with the people of Norway & is invested wisely. 80% of Scottish oil profit stays with the multi-national oil companies and the rest is squandered by a Westminster government that nobody in Scotland wants (or voted for).

 

When thatcher DE-industrialized the UK in the 80's (Coal, steel, mills, ship building etc. shut down) it was Scottish oil that kept the UK afloat paying for the loss in tax receipts from those industries and the huge unemployment benefits bill (an absolute fact that has been admitted by the then chancellor of the exchequer).

 

There's still at least 40 odd years of oil & gas left in the north sea (plus whatever is in the firth of Clyde that the MOD didn't want us to drill for in the early 90's).

 

Lets invest it wisely for our children and grandchildren instead of using it to pay off Westminsters debt and saddle or grandkids with even more debt.

 

Vote YES

 

In order to realise the money of North Sea oil fully you'd need to nationalise the whole thing. From the sea floor to the companies to the refinery at Grangemouth. Whilst I agree this should have always been the case, the fact is at the time it was necessary to use private contractors due to a lack of expertise in Britain to do it on our own. Since the nationalisation of it has only been mooted at the fringes of mainstream Scottish politics, I'd warn not to get too expectant of this.

 

Norway has spent little of her oil wealth. ?400bn saved. None spent to save it's ailing industries. De-industrilisation in costal Norway was huge in the 1980s as the governments of the day refused to spend money to save and preserve mass shipbuilding in Norway. Now they only spend 4% of interest earned on the oil fund. A small amount. Should Scotland become independent a quandry arises. Do we spend the money being raised or do we save it? Should we choose the latter either cuts or tax rises occur. That's simple economics. The UK government choose to spend not save. Wisely or not they spent to avoid tax increases or service cuts. Norway choose the harder route. That is a stark choice an independent Scotland faces. Both higher spending and an oil fund cannot occur. To say so is misleading.

 

You cannot also say we'd have had that 40 years of money in savings. No one knows what political trajectory an independent Scotland back then would've made. Based on those politicians who were about at the time, their ideas, their beliefs, their actions, on all sides, it's likely it may have just been spent as much as the possibility of it being saved. Also, as pointed out in the Andrew Wilson article in the SoS, Norway did not protect failing industries. It let them suffer to allow the fund to grow. Likelyhood, if following that model of oil fund management, is that the banks would've either needed borrowed money or been left to fail. That's the Nordic model. Finland let banks fail in it's mid-1990s crash. Norway let her shipyards shrink, as did Denmark. These nations "nimbleness" is based on a political will to let failure happen and mitigate it by economic diversification and actively spending more on further education and research and development - two things the current Scottish Government is actually not investing in as much. In fact ringfencing in these nations is rare and things like Health is cut to invest in other areas to help keep growth up. It's a British and Scottish ailment that we look to the next election and not the next 10 years or so in how governments spend money.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

Maybe just move on then? We all know it's a temp thing. We all know the arguments against and the reasons why it's been proposed. And we all accept there will be a Scottish currency in the long-term.

The readership of this might but the general public?

[Ulysses]

Those are your points. The poster was negatively comparing the UK's debt position with that of Iceland and Ireland where the debt had been cleared. As is now clear their debt positions are worse and not cleared.

 

And the UK's debt, which is already quite nasty, is going to catch up, unless and until more significant adjustments are made to spending and taxation in the UK. Mind you, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Scotland could conceive of getting away with a smaller fiscal adjustment than is in store for the UK, but that seems to be a whole other story.

[Das Root]

 

The readership of this might but the general public?

 

 

Probably don't think that deeply about it. But once provided the facts can make their own conclusion.

[Coco]

 

 

And the UK's debt, which is already quite nasty, is going to catch up, unless and until more significant adjustments are made to spending and taxation in the UK. Mind you, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Scotland could conceive of getting away with a smaller fiscal adjustment than is in store for the UK, but that seems to be a whole other story.

 

Correct. The UK is being fiscally mismanaged and the debt position is hideous. Stealing from the future.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

Probably don't think that deeply about it. But once provided the facts can make their own conclusion.

Who is providing the facts though?

 

The SNP are claiming that Scotland will use sterling. No one can stop that but that is different from a formal sterling zone.

[Das Root]

 

Who is providing the facts though?

 

The SNP are claiming that Scotland will use sterling. No one can stop that but that is different from a formal sterling zone.

 

 

It is yep.

[JamboX2]

The Andrew Little program on the Nordic nations, Our Friends in the North was very interesting and relevant to the debate here. 4 nations, each with varying systems, from a more liberal-right model in Sweden to a more social democratic Norway it showed different ways of doing things.

 

The nub of the program wasn't about the system though, but the mentality. That being one of a belief of "pooling and sharing" sovereignty with neighbouring nations. As he asks at the end, if Scotland is to be sovereign we need to understand that the term may not mean total policy freedom come a Yes vote. We will be hindered and affected by other centres of power - both political and economic. An excellent point he made was, should we look at this as being about relationships between peoples and nations then there is no reason why such advances cannot be made in a devolved context rather than through independence - though power would need devolved more than at the moment in the 2012 Act.

 

Sadly, our debate is not about that. It's become a black and white between the unionist devolution in the UK and the white paper positions. A stunted debate. What the film showed though was that independence is not the way to make us better, nor is adopting the Nordic model, but to have a totally new way of looking at how we do politics and relate to the world. When Fraser Nelson, of the Spectator, said the UK needs to look to the Nordic nations rather than the west, you know that this is more a broader minded approach than just solely of the left.

 

Very good show. It's the kind of programming the BBC in Scotland just fail to provide. Such shows should be the norm in this debate. Not the Ian McWhirter style introversion of looking at old wounds of his "Road to the Referendum" STV documentary, but more an open and honest assessment of all this in a wider and broader context. What the show said to me was that in the 21st century sovereignty is always going to be shared and that means the Union may still have life in it yet if it can come to grips with itself. It also said the Jimmy Reid Foundation's approach to a Yes vote, and the RiC, are not being innovative enough and are making an easy fix approach of off the shelf politics. It said Scots, irregardless of the position we get ourselves into after September next year, need to get a grip of ourselves, buck up our ideas and produce uniquely Scottish solutions to our issues in housing, education, health, economics, public services and energy. Politics, like football, isn't difficult. It's a duty to provide. We need to start providing irregardless of the vote next year. We are, and have been, failing in that for far too long.

Edited November 25, 2013 by JamboX2

[Patrick Bateman]

Westminster utterly abused Scotland's oil wealth and used it to fuel an unsustainable economic model. The argument from the No side appears to be that, because there is now *less* of this resource, we should continue to trust Westminster to manage it, and our other affairs. It's laughable, really.

[JamboX2]

Westminster utterly abused Scotland's oil wealth and used it to fuel an unsustainable economic model. The argument from the No side appears to be that, because there is now *less* of this resource, we should continue to trust Westminster to manage it, and our other affairs. It's laughable, really.

 

The main divergence in use of the oil wealth was the UK government using it to help prop up failed industry in the 1980s - such as steel works and the car industry. Norway let such industries die. Now the merits of such decisions are open to debate. What is not is the fact that the Nordic model is not as generous nor as leftish as we believe. Its actually rather small c conservative - a point Little developed well last night.

 

For right or wrong the oil fund for Scotland has probably past for us. We may need to look to another way as I doubt nationalisation of oil and gas production is on the cards for us.

[Radge21]

Will todays white paper contain the currency plan B

rUK have said if Scotland leaves the UK they leave the pound.

I am sure the Nats will tell us today what plan B is.

They have had long enough.

[jack D and coke]

Will todays white paper contain the currency plan B

rUK have said if Scotland leaves the UK they leave the pound.

I am sure the Nats will tell us today what plan B is.

They have had long enough.

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8335-whats-your-plan-b-mr-carmichael

There has never been any suggestion that a currency share won't be agreed. It's all posturing at the moment and in the cold light of day things will have to sensibly discussed instead of the argumentative tone both are adopting at the moment. The sense of using one is another debate entirely but that's for another day.

[Patrick Bateman]

The main divergence in use of the oil wealth was the UK government using it to help prop up failed industry in the 1980s - such as steel works and the car industry. Norway let such industries die. Now the merits of such decisions are open to debate. What is not is the fact that the Nordic model is not as generous nor as leftish as we believe. Its actually rather small c conservative - a point Little developed well last night.

 

For right or wrong the oil fund for Scotland has probably past for us. We may need to look to another way as I doubt nationalisation of oil and gas production is on the cards for us.

 

Thatcher used it mostly to underpin policies in The City, the oil money was not used to subsidise industries that were shut down. As for 'the merits' being up for discussion... Are you kidding? Are you suggesting that the way Norway and the UK governments used their natural resources is in any way favourably comparable?

 

Will todays white paper contain the currency plan B

rUK have said if Scotland leaves the UK they leave the pound.

I am sure the Nats will tell us today what plan B is.

They have had long enough.

 

As I've said before, if the UK refuses a currency union, can someone explain why Scotland should take its share of national debt and how they'd even enforce it in the first place? Scotland does have bargaining chips, folks.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Thatcher used it mostly to underpin policies in The City, the oil money was not used to subsidise industries that were shut down. As for 'the merits' being up for discussion... Are you kidding? Are you suggesting that the way Norway and the UK governments used their natural resources is in any way favourably comparable?

 

 

 

As I've said before, if the UK refuses a currency union, can someone explain why Scotland should take its share of national debt and how they'd even enforce it in the first place? Scotland does have bargaining chips, folks.

Scotland can repudiate debt if it so wishes but it does not make sense either. If it comes to debt markets to borrow for government spending, how many debt buyers will trust them not to do the same again?

[Patrick Bateman]

Scotland can repudiate debt if it so wishes but it does not make sense either. If it comes to debt markets to borrow for government spending, how many debt buyers will trust them not to do the same again?

 

I don't think it would be a particularly good idea or fair way to behave, it was mainly to illustrate that Scotland isn't in a totally weakened bargaining position. What do you make of JamboX2's point about Thatcher using oil money to 'prop up the steel and car industry' I mean, that's just not true, is it? Am I reading this correctly?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I don't think it would be a particularly good idea or fair way to behave, it was mainly to illustrate that Scotland isn't in a totally weakened bargaining position. What do you make of JamboX2's point about Thatcher using oil money to 'prop up the steel and car industry' I mean, that's just not true, is it? Am I reading this correctly?

 

Indeed, I didn't get that either. Thatcher turned the life support machine off failing industries, probably rightly. For every Linwood car factory closure, there was a Derby or Washington opening up.

 

The big losers in heavy industry were steel, shipbuilding and mining. Then again, when the Cold War ended, what was the demand for the shipyards?

[Boaby Ewing]

I think it's fairer to say a lot of the oil money was used, at least in the 70s and 80s, to smooth the transition from a leftist industrial economy to the service economy we have today.

 

It wasn't used to prop up industries as such, but to prop up communities after the industries that supported them had all but collapsed (both because of government decisions and changes in the wider world).

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Looking at this White Paper feed on the BBC: -

 

Sturgeon is querying the need to raise the pension age - Nicola, FYI, the pension age out here is headed to 68 and this is a country that wants to grow its population by immigration and has compulsory pension saving. Scotland has older demographics and does not have compulsory pension saving. I suggest you speak to some actuaries forthwith.

 

Bedroom tax abolished in first year - makes sense. It is a daft policy that probably costs more money

[Patrick Bateman]

I think it's fairer to say a lot of the oil money was used, at least in the 70s and 80s, to smooth the transition from a leftist industrial economy to the service economy we have today.

 

This point is raised in the BBC documentary last night. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03kk8j7/Our_Friends_in_the_North/

 

For folk to use the 'We'll never know how Scotland would have used the money' argument as an implicit reason against Scottish independence are being slightly disingenuous. The factual circumstance is that Westminster had the control, and Westminster wasted it. The idea that Westminster is better placed to manage Scotland's resources is, therefore, laughable to me. I mean, if your bank lost all your savings, you'd hardly stick with them if they told you that another bank might have lost your money anyway, surely?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Royal Mail returned to public ownership? Er, when my old man was a postie it was Royal Mail Scotland and Northern Ireland that covered both countries. I have no idea if that has changed or not.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This point is raised in the BBC documentary last night. http://www.bbc.co.uk...s_in_the_North/

 

For folk to use the 'We'll never know how Scotland would have used the money' argument as an implicit reason against Scottish independence are being slightly disingenuous. The factual circumstance is that Westminster had the control, and Westminster wasted it. The idea that Westminster is better placed to manage Scotland's resources is, therefore, laughable to me. I mean, if your bank lost all your savings, you'd hardly stick with them if they told you that another bank might have lost your money anyway, surely?

 

Indeed but it works both ways. My inherent cynicism towards all politicians suggests that any lot of any jurisdiction would have blown it!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Scottish passport to be same as UK passport. Doesn't say whether people born outside of Scotland are entitled to dual nationality or not though. Also, is dual nationality allowed for other countries? If independence did happen, I would want to get my boys Scottish passports but I am not surrendering their Aussie or British ones.

[hughesie27]

Looking at this White Paper feed on the BBC: -

 

Sturgeon is querying the need to raise the pension age - Nicola, FYI, the pension age out here is headed to 68 and this is a country that wants to grow its population by immigration and has compulsory pension saving. Scotland has older demographics and does not have compulsory pension saving. I suggest you speak to some actuaries forthwith.

 

Bedroom tax abolished in first year - makes sense. It is a daft policy that probably costs more money

 

She said that the current UK life expectancy figure doen't reflect the Scottish context which would be lower due to the average life expectancy of a Scot being lower than UK average.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

She said that the current UK life expectancy figure doen't reflect the Scottish context which would be lower due to the average life expectancy of a Scot being lower than UK average.

 

True, that's a fair point. However, not all pensions are paid to people living in Glasgow's East End.

 

If Scots changed their diet and stopped smoking and drinking as much as well...

[Patrick Bateman]

Scottish passport to be same as UK passport. Doesn't say whether people born outside of Scotland are entitled to dual nationality or not though. Also, is dual nationality allowed for other countries? If independence did happen, I would want to get my boys Scottish passports but I am not surrendering their Aussie or British ones.

 

I don't know about the rules for Australia regarding dual citizenship, but Sturgeon just said that, if someone is born in Scotland, or has Scottish parents/grandparents they automatically have the right to apply.

 

Folk can say what they like about Salmond, this is a masterful performance. He knows his stuff inside and out.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just checked the White Paper. Dual citizenship is allowed. In fact, it appears my missus and I could apply for a Scottish passport as we both lived in Scotland for over 10 years.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I don't know about the rules for Australia regarding dual citizenship, but Sturgeon just said that, if someone is born in Scotland, or has Scottish parents/grandparents they automatically have the right to apply.

 

Folk can say what they like about Salmond, this is a masterful performance. He knows his stuff inside and out.

 

See above. For Australia, dual citizenship is welcomed provided you adhere to your duties as an Aussie citizen, like voting compulsorily for shite politicians no matter where you are resident!

[hughesie27]

 

 

I don't know about the rules for Australia regarding dual citizenship, but Sturgeon just said that, if someone is born in Scotland, or has Scottish parents/grandparents they automatically have the right to apply.

 

Folk can say what they like about Salmond, this is a masterful performance. He knows his stuff inside and out.

 

Watched about 20 mins before I had to leave the house but they both seemwd to be handling questions well.

 

Nick Robinson's woefully questioning

 

Not pleased with the reaponse to his jokey question he had to ask it twice.

[Homme]

Firmly in the YES camp from this morning onwards.

 

What an opportunity.

[Chris Benoit]

Firmly in the YES camp from this morning onwards.

 

What an opportunity.

 

 

I'm heading that way, going to have read through of the white paper when I get a chance but fairly sure I'll be voting yes.

[Homme]

 

 

 

I'm heading that way, going to have read through of the white paper when I get a chance but fairly sure I'll be voting yes.

 

Of course that's me basing my decisions on the key points coming out of the white paper. I will read it thoroughly tonight but i only expect it to reinforce my decision.

 

Have been on the fence on this topic for years.

[Patrick Bateman]

Watched about 20 mins before I had to leave the house but they both seemwd to be handling questions well.

 

Nick Robinson's woefully questioning

 

Not pleased with the reaponse to his jokey question he had to ask it twice.

 

 

The BBC and Sky News both cut away before the end, to interview Alastair Darling and two inarticulate students respectively. What a ridiculous way to cover this event.

 

 

Interestingly, Darling was insisting that there were 'no answers' in the document and Better Together has already started rubbishing it. How they've managed to read 170,000 words in an hour and a half is beyond me. I mean, it's almost as though they'd had a preprepared script that they need to stick to... I also think it's hysterical that a serial house flipping / expenses cheat who presided over a catastrophic financial collapse, and whose recovery plan facilitated widespread banking fraud can have the gall to accuse Alex Salmond of being untrustworthy.

[jack D and coke]

 

 

The BBC and Sky News both cut away before the end, to interview Alastair Darling and two inarticulate students respectively. What a ridiculous way to cover this event.

 

 

Interestingly, Darling was insisting that there were 'no answers' in the document and Better Together has already started rubbishing it. How they've managed to read 170,000 words in an hour and a half is beyond me. I mean, it's almost as though they'd had a preprepared script that they need to stick to... I also think it's hysterical that a serial house flipping / expenses cheat who presided over a catastrophic financial collapse, and whose recovery plan facilitated widespread banking fraud can have the gall to accuse Alex Salmond of being untrustworthy.

A man who was a communist and is now a champagne socialist. A loathsome man from a loathsome party and I hope labour voters seen him standing at Tory conferences etc and remember. He'll stand shoulder to shoulder with them but not with his countrymen. I hate the way he says Scautland as well. Really boils my pish.

[dryJTlaw]

Firmly in the YES camp from this morning onwards.

 

What an opportunity.

Me too

[Sarah O]

Every passing day seems to generate more and more people swaying to yes. Infact in the last week two of my No voting facebook associates have publicly swung to the Yes side.

 

I'm still yet to hear about anyone going the other way.

 

We will do this. Looking forward to reading the paper later on.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Foxy Knoxy

[flecktimus]

The BBC and Sky News both cut away before the end, to interview Alastair Darling and two inarticulate students respectively. What a ridiculous way to cover this event.

 

 

Interestingly, Darling was insisting that there were 'no answers' in the document and Better Together has already started rubbishing it. How they've managed to read 170,000 words in an hour and a half is beyond me. I mean, it's almost as though they'd had a preprepared script that they need to stick to... I also think it's hysterical that a serial house flipping / expenses cheat who presided over a catastrophic financial collapse, and whose recovery plan facilitated widespread banking fraud can have the gall to accuse Alex Salmond of being untrustworthy.

 

The clown stated that Sturgeon had not answered the question on child care.

 

Even i understood from her answer that we cant afford the policy at the moment as any rise in revenue that would finance the policy would go straight to Westminster.

Edited November 26, 2013 by flecktimus

[Boris]

 

Every passing day seems to generate more and more people swaying to yes. Infact in the last week two of my No voting facebook associates have publicly swung to the Yes side.

 

I'm still yet to hear about anyone going the other way.

 

We will do this. Looking forward to reading the paper later on.

 

It's very interesting. Was speaking to my Dad over a pint a few weeks ago about this.

 

He was very much no, but seems to think yes will win. I'm more yes but fear a no win, tbh.

 

I think he is swaying towards yes, but at 74 his cynicism about all politicians is massive!

[Sarah O]

One thing for sure, it's going to be a very exciting few months!

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

How can this white paper be a definitive blue print as to what will happen after a yes vote when:

1. Many of its proposals require negotiations and agreements with other countries and organisations, and there is no guarantee they will go the way that the white paper claims

2. Many of its proposals are based upon the assumption that the SNP will win the 2016 election, and there is no guarantee that they will do so

[Sarah O]

How can this white paper be a definitive blue print as to what will happen after a yes vote when:

1. Many of its proposals require negotiations and agreements with other countries and organisations, and there is no guarantee they will go the way that the white paper claims

2. Many of its proposals are based upon the assumption that the SNP will win the 2016 election, and there is no guarantee that they will do so

Cool. Lets just vote No and trust Westminster and the tories to blindly lead us...

 

...

 

Where?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

Cool. Lets just vote No and trust Westminster and the tories to blindly lead us...

 

...

 

Where?

 

He makes a fair point, although the no campaign is increasingly poor.

[Boris]

 

How can this white paper be a definitive blue print as to what will happen after a yes vote when:

1. Many of its proposals require negotiations and agreements with other countries and organisations, and there is no guarantee they will go the way that the white paper claims

2. Many of its proposals are based upon the assumption that the SNP will win the 2016 election, and there is no guarantee that they will do so

 

I don't disagree that the SNP have used this to their own advantage, however if possible people need to separate the two.

 

Independence would allow a lot of the white paper to happen. Independence would also allow other parties to set out their stall and let the Scottish electorate decide as such at the first general election.

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't disagree that the SNP have used this to their own advantage, however if possible people need to separate the two.

 

Independence would allow a lot of the white paper to happen. Independence would also allow other parties to set out their stall and let the Scottish electorate decide as such at the first general election.

 

The message is simple; Scotland's future in Scotland's hands, or Scotland's future in Westminster's hands. Given we have extensive experience of the latter, and where that has taken us, the best option is clear.