Mugabe

[K1874M]

Looks like the fiddle re the recount has started...

 

Zanu PF have been declared winners in the first of the 23 constituencies... mind you the difference was only 1 vote from the original vote.

 

If Zanu PF are declared winners out right at the end of this what do kickbackers think should be done? Should Britain get involved directly or should the UK put pressure on neighbouring states?

 

I'm all for pressuring neighbouring states, was great to see the SA dockyards union refusing to unload a Chinese weapon shipment to Zimbabwe.... just a shame it wasnt the SA government that blocked it.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7362278.stm

 

If only they had oil (think they are the most oil rich country in Africa tho) Bush and his ramshackle army would there in a sec.

[Deek]

Historically Zimbabwe was land ruled by Mugabe's tribe,The Mashona (Zanu PF).

 

When Britain invaded South Africa in the 19th centuary, they put a squeeze on the Zulu's. One of the tribes sub subservient to the Zulu where the Matabele.

 

The Matabele for their own selfish reasons and to break free from the Zulu invaded Zimbabwe and settled there. They are the same tribe/people who run the MDC, the opposition to Mugabe.

 

The Mashona nation have always wanted two things.

 

Their land back from the white invaders and there land back from the Matabele.

 

I think Britain has probably done enough damage around the world over the years.

 

This is an African problem. Let the neighbours of Zimbabwe help the problem. They managed to find some accord in Kenya and hopefully can manage to gain tribal consensus in Zimbabwe.

[Stuart Lyon]

It will all end in tears and bloodshed especially if left to African nations but then that is no different to Iraq and Afghanistan where the forces of good (US, UK and some others) intervened.

[Billy the Jambo]

Why dont the government just send in some crack SAS troops to put a bullet through the barstewards head

[frankblack]

Why dont the government just send in some crack SAS troops to put a bullet through the barstewards head

 

There isn't any oil, and Zimbabwe are no threat to the outside world, so no interest for Britain.

[Deek]

Why dont the government just send in some crack SAS troops to put a bullet through the barstewards head

 

It is nothing to do with us, our goverment or the SAS.

 

You talk as if we are still a colonial power.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I can't understand how people in the West do not realise what a potentially very rich country Zimbabwe could be if properly run.

 

Minerals, crops, tobacco. The wealth is there.

 

In 1975 the US failed to intervene in the Angolan civil war because of a "credibility" problem after Vietnam. Angola is the richest country in Africa in regards to minerals and a terrible war raged for nearly 20 years involving combatants that included Cuba and South Africa.

 

South Africa needs to do more. But they have a complete areshole for a leader and a rapist ready to take over who talks a good game so I do not have much faith there.

 

If any country needed regime change for purely humanitarian reasons, its Zimbabwe. It is not Somalia. There would be no Black Hawk Down scenarios.

 

But military intervention will never happen.

[davemclaren]

I don't think the Western powers intervening would help much. They need to sort out their own problems I'm afraid.

[Samster]

Can someone just not assasinate the fud?!

[The People's Chimp]

It wouldn't be the worst thing ever.

[Boris]

Should see if these guys are available...

 

 

failing that, there's always plan b

 

[i8hibsh]

He is a vile racist pig

 

I utterly despise him

[Praha06]

America would have gone in by now.....if Zimbabwe had oil.........

[i8hibsh]

America would have gone in by now.....if Zimbabwe had oil.........

 

Vietnam never had oil

[Boris]

Vietnam never had oil

 

Different threat, different times.

 

Domino theory and all that - post-McCarthy hangover...

[i8hibsh]

Different threat, different times.

 

Domino theory and all that - post-McCarthy hangover...

 

They saw Vietnam(North) and Communism as a national threat

 

They saw Iraq and WOMD as a national threat

[I P Knightley]

He is a vile racist pig

 

I utterly despise him

 

Mugabe or Mark Thatcher.

 

Or both?

[i8hibsh]

Mugabe or Mark Thatcher.

 

Or both?

 

hahahaha

[Boris]

They saw Vietnam(North) and Communism as a national threat

 

They saw Iraq and WOMD as a national threat

 

Even although they never had proper inteligence that WoMD were a national threat (to the US).

 

Due to the oil any suspect intel suddenly became gospel. The excuse they needed, if you like.

[Rick Grimes]

They saw Vietnam(North) and Communism as a national threat

 

They saw Iraq and WOMD as a national threat

 

 

arf!

[i8hibsh]

Be that as it may the threat of Saddam Hussein was justified enough IMO

 

A very very dangerous man

 

As leader of the free world and the worlds political leader - I 100 % see the war as justified

[Boris]

Be that as it may the threat of Saddam Hussein was justified enough IMO

 

A very very dangerous man

 

As leader of the free world and the worlds political leader - I 100 % see the war as justified

 

There was no threat from Saddam.

 

He wasn't a nice man, true, but he was no threat.

 

I was speakingto someone at a conference last year who used to work with MoD and the real reason Iraq was invaded was to pacify the Iranians and to get them to play ball re their nuclear project.

 

Unfortunately the moderate Rafsanjani was then unelected and hardliner govt was elected instead.

 

Oops!

 

Iran saw Iraq as a bigger threat than Israel.

 

Only passing on what I heard....!

[i8hibsh]

There was no threat from Saddam.

 

He wasn't a nice man, true, but he was no threat.

 

I was speakingto someone at a conference last year who used to work with MoD and the real reason Iraq was invaded was to pacify the Iranians and to get them to play ball re their nuclear project.

 

Unfortunately the moderate Rafsanjani was then unelected and hardliner govt was elected instead.

 

Oops!

 

Iran saw Iraq as a bigger threat than Israel.

 

Only passing on what I heard....!

 

nice man?

 

Are you Fecking serious!

 

Aye Hitler was salt of the earth too

[269miles]

They saw Vietnam(North) and Communism as a national threat

 

They saw Iraq and WOMD as a national threat

 

Let's not forget their invasion of that hotbed of world terrorism , the Caribbean island of Grenada

[Boris]

nice man?

 

Are you Fecking serious!

 

Aye Hitler was salt of the earth too

 

I said he wasn't a nice man....

 

Pfft...kids today. I don't know...

[Patrick Bateman]

nice man?

 

Are you Fecking serious!

 

Aye Hitler was salt of the earth too

 

 

I honestly can't understand why you are trying to engage in political debates when you are barely capable of reading. The Iraq War is/was a mess for a number of reasons; the coalition attempting to wage wars on two fronts (Afganistan + Iraq) and, worst of all, in Asia. Look up some history books and you'll see that you cannot win a war when fighting on two fronts.

[Therapist]

you'll see that you cannot win a war when fighting on two fronts.

 

I think you'll find that the Allies beat the Axis powers in WW2 while fighting on at least two fronts.

[coppercrutch]

He is a vile racist pig

 

I utterly despise him

 

Why do you ALWAYS have to bring Salmond into everything.

 

Give it a break....

[Patrick Bateman]

I think you'll find that the Allies beat the Axis powers in WW2 while fighting on at least two fronts.

 

Different scenario though. As it was effectively a case of Britain + The commonwealth, The US and the USSR versus Germany and Japan. The manpower of the soviets alone (although their army was technically inferior) outweighed the Axis by millions. And it was a very close-run thing. Indeed, you could turn it around and say the Nazis LOST the war by initiating Operation Barbarosa.

[Rory B Bellows]

To go back to the OP, I thought that watching the news yesterday, the language used by the Whitehouse spokesman such as "Unacceptable", "Will not be forgotten" etc etc shows that the US is seriously fed up with this guy (unlike our govt. who seem to be downplaying the whole thing?) and I wouldn't be at all surprised that this incident with the dipolmats being held is used as the excuse to knock him off.

[Therapist]

Different scenario though.

 

I don't believe it is.

 

Incidentally, you are undermining your own argument. You say the Soviet Union's manpower was a key factor in the Allied victory, yet you say the coalition's actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are folly despite the coalition having massive numerical (not to mention qualitative) advantages in men and materiel.

 

So sir, which is it to be?

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't believe it is.

 

Incidentally, you are undermining your own argument. You say the Soviet Union's manpower was a key factor in the Allied victory, yet you say the coalition's actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are folly despite the coalition having massive numerical (not to mention qualitative) advantages in men and materiel.

 

So sir, which is it to be?

 

I should perhaps expand my point; the Soviets man power was an advantage because the rules of engagement were different. In WW2, it was a case of one set of soldiers versus another, fighting pitched battlegrounds. In Iraq, coalition forces easily conquered Hussein's army within a matter of weeks, but have not coped with the aftermath because the enemy (i.e. insurgents from Iran and disgruntled locals) blend in with civilians, much like in Vietnam. Therefore, its not a case of making use of superior technology, rather it is coping with guerrilla tactics. As for the "Winning of hearts and minds" - that just won't happen because if we were invaded by supposed "liberators" I'm sure there would be enough people willing to fight them off. I don't believe in any great Iraq conspiracies per se, (especially regarding oil) but I don't think there is any doubt that going to war with Iraq was a huge mistake. As a matter of national security, Al-Qaeda had no base of operation there under Hussein, now they do.

 

As for Mugabe - Yes, he's a vile individual, but hopefully he'll pop his clogs soon.

[coppercrutch]

To end the Afghanistan debate no-one will ever beat those people.

 

Born fighters. Mentalists but smart cookies.

 

Waste of time trying to 'beat' them.

 

IMO.

[i8hibsh]

I said he wasn't a nice man....

 

Pfft...kids today. I don't know...

 

apologies

[Samster]

To end the Afghanistan debate no-one will ever beat those people.

 

Born fighters. Mentalists but smart cookies.

 

Waste of time trying to 'beat' them.

 

IMO.

 

 

Exactly, we've been fighting them for a 150 years (actually probably longer) but it's the same old story. After the retreat from Kabul in 1840-something when only 1 man out of about 15,000 got out alive you'd think we'd have learned!!

[maroonlegions]

IMPORTANT: Zimbabwe: The Chinese Genocide Cargo: VOTE FOR MUGABE OR FACE CIVIL WAR - Mugabe to seize ALL PROPERTY!

Date Posted: Sunday 20-Apr-2008

 

[i misunderstood Mugabe. I thought he said "Democracy" and "Ballots". But its really "Bullets". Oh, so that is "Democracy" Mugabe style. Well, he wins because he's getting 3 million bullets - along with mortar and RPG7 ammunition. Those must be the "ballots", er bullets he was waiting for to enforce "democracy".

 

This is from Eddie Cross of the MDC in Zimbabwe. This is sickening, but COMPLETELY EXPECTED! We did not expect honesty did we? We were never that completely stupid.

 

So Mugabe set up the process to completely steal the election the first time, but it did not work. So now he's busy stealing it AGAIN, and if that does not work, he just hauls out the infantry weapons and starts killing the people! Ah! That is the "democracy" he claimed to stand for. This is "Democracy" - which he fought the whites for this. This is the "democracy" which he is so proud of.

 

Sorry, foolish me for not understanding "Democracy".

 

The MDC has said it will NOT be a part of the recount because it is fraudulent. Good. I really like the MDC's stance these days.

 

Look at the last paragraph in Eddie's letter. He talks of Army officers already lecturing the people: Vote Mugabe or face Civil War. Well, I have told the story many times of how Mugabe won the 1980 election the first time he came to power. He sent a message via his guerillas to the masses: Vote for Mugabe or the war continues. Now, 28 years later, it is the same message.

 

But look at the mention below that Mugabe intends seizing the mine and even URBAN PROPERTY! He will now go after people's HOMES IN THE CITIES! This is incredible. Mugabe must be fought. But let him fire the first shot of the Civil War and Genocide II. Jan]

 

Specialists in Electoral Fraud

 

In the late 70?s I was appointed Chief Executive of a major corporation and about six months into the job I noticed that although we had about 3500 employees and an internal audit department, I never saw anyone being disciplined or prosecuted for theft. I have been in business for about 40 years and in my experience 85 per cent of theft in a company is by staff. I called in the manager of the audit department and asked why I never saw a report on employee theft? Our business was selling predominately for cash and handled truckloads of cash every day. I then threatened him with dismissal if I did not start to see real evidence that they were doing their job and for the next three years the disciplinary committee was very busy with reported cases of theft and abuse of privileges.

 

In the recent election I received an invitation from the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission to witness the ?sealing of the postal ballot boxes? in my district. This election was run on a ward basis and therefore I attended one such sealing and my Chief Election Agent the other. I arrived at the polling station designated; this was about a week before the election itself and found about 20 people and several policemen milling about.

 

After a few minutes we were called to order and the presiding officer for the ward then proceeded to conduct an elaborate and painstaking procedure to demonstrate that the plastic box was empty and then sealed. We were told to take the numbers down and to sign the seals on the box so that they could not be tampered with. I then asked what would happen to the box until the election? I was told it would sit in the polling station in splendid isolation guarded by a policeman 24 hours a day.

 

What a waste of time ? the real action was many kilometers away in police stations and army barracks and diplomatic missions where postal ballots were being completed by civil servants and serving officers under the supervision of their superior officers. Nothing transparent about that process and we have plenty of evidence that they were forced to vote one way ? if they did not, they were told to do it again. These ballots were then sent to selected districts where they were used to ensure that certain candidates won.

 

My District was not one of those ? I think I had 27 postal ballots. But what I recall was the elaborate dance conducted for absolutely no purpose in that primary school polling station. It served no purpose other than to give the impression that this was a process above suspicion, when it fact it simply disguised what was really going on.

 

Now take yesterdays recount of 23 constituencies. The claim by Zanu PF made 10 days after the results were known, was that the returning officers under counted the Zanu PF vote. They first targeted 25 such districts and then trimmed this to 23. All in rural areas.

 

The statistics are awesome for an exercise of this nature. The 23 districts had 1380 polling stations. At those polling stations were nearly `15 000 staff ? excluding 5 000 police officers ? all of whom were on duty the whole day and well into the night and observed the whole process. The returning officers in charge were all senior civil servants carefully selected for this task and well paid for their time.

 

Each team of over 15 people had to watch while an average of 275 voters went through the elaborate process of having their names and identity documents checked against the voters rolls. Collected their ballot papers and then completed them in secrecy before showing the polling station code number to the returning officer or their deputies and then placing them into one of four boxes ? all color coded.

 

In the evening after closing the polling station they had a short break and then, in front of up to 20 party polling agents, they proceeded to empty each box onto an open table and divide them into piles ? one for each candidate, before counting and recounting until everyone was satisfied with the count which was then recorded by all involved ? agents on their own returns and the staff on the official documents.

 

The process went on for hours ? eventually all is finalized and the returning officers filled in the V11 form recording the results of the poll, it was signed by all parties and then posted on the door of the polling station and he or she then took the form to the district control center where the senior returning officer and his staff were and they then consolidated the returns from all stations and finally declare the result for the ward, constituency or senatorial district. At the same time they announced the result of the presidential poll.

 

In every polling station the police watched every step and radioed in the results as they got them. I know that because at our polling stations during the counting we were hearing, via the police on duty, results from other stations.

 

Now Zanu PF and the Mugabe regime want the world to accept that this elaborate and painstaking process at 1400 polling stations was flawed to the extent that the results ? drawn up by 15 000 staff, watched by 5 000 police officers, were wrong! How wrong we are about to discover. They started at 08.00 hrs yesterday and it will take three days to finish. The process of the recount will be elaborate for the benefit of the watching press, SADC observers and the curious. They will hold up each ballot ? all 400 000 of them, carefully place them on the appropriate pile and then start the count.

Remember the count is 400 000 times 4 ? 1,6 million ballots from 5 000 ballot boxes.

 

But it is an elaborate sham, put on for the benefit of the gullible and the region ? which knows full well what is going on and yet will applaud the process as being ?transparent? and above board. Why have they not done this with the V11 forms? Why not sit down with the four Chief Election Agents and count the results of 9 400 forms filled in by returning officers on the night of the 29th March. Why not simply verify the signatures on those forms and ask the parties to justify any queries. Why this elaborate and time consuming process when the obvious has not been done?

 

It is quite clear to me and to millions of others that this exercise ? like the sealing of the postal ballot boxes with nothing in them, is just a ploy to hide the fact that fraud is being committed in front of the whole watching world. They have had the ballot boxes for three weeks behind closed doors and like my employees, simply cannot be trusted with the cash! Zanu PF and ballot boxes is a bit like the staff and the cash box ? do a snap audit and fire the employee afterwards.

 

That ship with its genocide cargo from China is on its way to Angola ? from there its cargo will probably be flown to Harare. Yesterday three MDC activists were picked up in Harare, beaten to the edge of death and then dumped in the bush at Mtoroshanga ? many kilometers from Harare. A meeting was held at Raffingora yesterday, addressed by army officers in uniform. They told the people that there would be a run off and that this time they ?will? vote for Mugabe or else there will be civil war. They also said they would shortly start to take over businesses and mines and urban property.

 

If nobody starts to act soon, this is going to be a bloody few weeks.

 

Eddie Cross

Bulawayo, 20th April 2008

Posted By: Jan

AfricanCrisis Webmaster

 

 

 

AND THEY SAY A FEW CANT RULE THE WORLD EH, PIECE OF CAKE.

[Samster]

Thanks for posting that maroonlegions, pretty powerful stuff.

 

There was a discussion i was listening to on the radio last night saying there is nothing Mugabe won't now do to stay in power, he is so desparate. He no longer cares about international law and what anyone else in the world thinks. He used to act with a bit of restraint but now even that has gone.

 

I wonder if civil war could be the solution? But the most likely outcome of that is mass slaughter of civilians on an unimaginable scale.