The working class

[i8hibsh]

I am from working class roots (grandparents up) and I have the utmost respect for the class in general.

 

What grinds my gears on this one was something that came out of that ridiculous excuse for a parliament just recently with reference to the scrapping of the 10p in the pound.

 

For what it is worth I do not agree with this at all (well not really) but when people try and tell you "the real worker will pay more" it infuriates me.

 

Why do people just think because someone is working class they work harder and are referred to the 'real worker'. Does a white collar worker get paid for doing nothing?

 

Undoubtedly manual labour is a far cry from an office jockey etc but to say the working class work harder is a bleedin insult (not that the working class is just manual labour but you know what I mean I am sure).

 

Most jobs tend to be hard at times and I am sure tiring, whether you are crunching numbers, stacking shelves, drilling streets or operating on someone's body.

 

Wish these MPs would just feck off as it appears to me they are just trying to win the vote of the 'common' man.

 

[Debtor]

So, you don't have 'proper job' then eh?

 

Sit around behind a desk being overpaid all day do you?

 

 

Thought so.......

[Sherlock]

I'm from a working class background but IMO, working class would nowadays actually mean those that too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state.

 

IMO, those with jobs that would have been classed as working class 25 years ago, now have all the trappings of middle class.

[i8hibsh]

I'm from a working class background but IMO, working class would nowadays actually mean those that too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state.

 

IMO, those with jobs that would have been classed as working class 25 years ago, now have all the trappings of middle class.

 

I wasn't wanting to say that as it starts a whole diff debate, but why do dole bludgers get called working class when the lazy sods don't work?

[i8hibsh]

Like bleedin Unions - I hate em

 

95% of the world's poulation are overworked and underpaid, these greedy barstewards are just out to strip companies for all they have

[Boris]

I think what you have to realise is that in most cases "white collar" is now the domain of the working class.

 

Instead of industrial factories full of manual "blue collar" workers, you now have office factories full of "white collar" workers.

 

In my experience working in the financial sector it felt akin to a Henry Ford-esque production line except at the end of the process instead of a Model T rolling off the production line and new Pension Schemem was started, or endorsed etc etc etc

 

Call centres are, imho, a good example of "factory-isation" of "white collar" work.

 

Re the working class in general, of course they work hard. Perhaps they are referred to as the real worker as they are so numerous and are the essentially the majority of the workforce which creates the wealth etc etc

[i8hibsh]

I think what you have to realise is that in most cases "white collar" is now the domain of the working class.

 

Instead of industrial factories full of manual "blue collar" workers, you now have office factories full of "white collar" workers.

 

In my experience working in the financial sector it felt akin to a Henry Ford-esque production line except at the end of the process instead of a Model T rolling off the production line and new Pension Schemem was started, or endorsed etc etc etc

 

Call centres are, imho, a good example of "factory-isation" of "white collar" work.

 

Re the working class in general, of course they work hard. Perhaps they are referred to as the real worker as they are so numerous and are the essentially the majority of the workforce which creates the wealth etc etc

 

 

Hahaha was wondering when you would join the debate Boris

[Boris]

I'm from a working class background but IMO, working class would nowadays actually mean those that too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state.

 

IMO, those with jobs that would have been classed as working class 25 years ago, now have all the trappings of middle class.

 

I wasn't wanting to say that as it starts a whole diff debate, but why do dole bludgers get called working class when the lazy sods don't work?

 

In Marxist terms, the "dole bludgers" and those "too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state" are what would be classed as Lumpen Proletariat. It is of course useful for the capitalist press to refer to these lumpen proles as proletarian so as to undermine the actual plight of the true proletariat.

 

Although the "traditional" working class may have the trappings of the "middle class", what in fact is happening is the swelling of the working class (proletariat) as the numbers within the bourgeois/petit bourgeois decreases, as is consistent with Capitalism.

 

To thihk of the working class as dirty faced manual workers in traditional heavy industry is an anachronism.

[Boris]

Hahaha was wondering when you would join the debate Boris

 

Right on comrade!

 

[Boaby Ewing]

Christ, a non-footballing rant from the OP that I agree with entirely!

 

I think Boris sums up the situation quite nicely as well.

 

The one that really wound me up was Ken Livingstone on 7/7 when he made a crass and wholly unnecessary reference to class - as if a bomb attack on Canary Wharf would have somehow been slightly more morally justifiable.

 

"It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever."

 

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor_statement_070705.jsp

 

Now using Boris's definition his statement kinda works, but I think 'class' remains such a loaded term he was on very dodgy and frankly insensitive ground there.

[Sherlock]

 

Boris, this is how i would imagine you.

 

As a fellow Dalridian, i will be keeping my eyes peeled for you passing in the street.

[doctor jambo]

I'm afraid the whole class system needs re-appraised

It just does not fit anymore

 

Previously the upper classes included landed gentry, Ministers, Doctors

 

Middle classes - teachers, accountants

 

Working classes- miners, drivers etc

 

 

Now we have Ministers and Drs firmly in the middle classes along with most people who have jobs

 

Working classes- shop workers, factory workers

 

And of course the upper classes- landed gentry and the mega rich

 

lower-upper classes- ie wanabees- everyone from footballers to porn stars ( I mean glamour models)

 

And we now have an Orwellian underclass that share on common values with what used to be the old working classes

[Boris]

Boris, this is how i would imagine you.

 

As a fellow Dalridian, i will be keeping my eyes peeled for you passing in the street.

 

Try looking for this instead...

 

 

Fith column and all that, eh, what?

[Boris]

I'm afraid the whole class system needs re-appraised

It just does not fit anymore

 

Previously the upper classes included landed gentry, Ministers, Doctors

 

Middle classes - teachers, accountants

 

Working classes- miners, drivers etc

 

 

Now we have Ministers and Drs firmly in the middle classes along with most people who have jobs

 

Working classes- shop workers, factory workers

 

And of course the upper classes- landed gentry and the mega rich

 

lower-upper classes- ie wanabees- everyone from footballers to porn stars ( I mean glamour models)

 

And we now have an Orwellian underclass that share on common values with what used to be the old working classes

 

See my comments above. The class sytem is fine, simply who is in each class has changed.

 

I would argue that the Orwellian underclass are more akin to the lumpen proles rather than "old school" working class.

[John Findlay]

My full name is John Dickson Findlay.

 

Until I left school aged 16 I had always lived in council houses.

 

At the age of 20, 25yrs ago I got my first mortgage and became a homeowner. Twenty five years later, one failed marriage father of two. Re-married and about to become a dad again. Living once again in a council house but done anyone call me working class, middle class or upper class.

I am John Dickson Findlay simple as that.

 

 

 

John

[coppercrutch]

My full name is John Dickson Findlay.

 

Until I left school aged 16 I had always lived in council houses.

 

At the age of 20, 25yrs ago I got my first mortgage and became a homeowner. Twenty five years later, one failed marriage father of two. Re-married and about to become a dad again. Living once again in a council house but done anyone call me working class, middle class or upper class.

I am John Dickson Findlay simple as that.

 

 

 

John

 

You may like to add - (25 years later when I had paid off the mortgage).

 

 

Sorry couldn't help myself !!

[i8hibsh]

I think the worst human beiong alive for this must be none other than George 'I care about every political situation around the world except in my own constituency' Galloway.

 

Without doubt an immensely intelligent man but a tw*t of thie highest order.

 

He seems to think the only human beings worthy of breathing fresh air are the descendents of the Navies and mine workers and those themselves that get their 'hands dirty'

 

The guy is a clown. He is mega rich and is one of the biggest socialists in the land

 

smack!

[i8hibsh]

You may like to add - (25 years later when I had paid off the mortgage).

 

 

Sorry couldn't help myself !!

 

Or once she took me for all I had

 

Wimen! dinae get me started

 

respect to you JF

[luckydug]

In my book everyone who works for a living is working class.There are too many ordinary folk getting above themselves these days and thinking they are better than others just because they have their own house with all the debt that goes with it.Some folk are going to come crashing back down to earth soon and will be quite happy to get a council house.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Or once she took me for all I had

Wimen! dinae get me started

 

respect to you JF

 

Thats more like it, bloody split ersed bints!

[Frankie Pal]

"To secure for the workers by hand and by brain the full fruits of their industry" - Clause 4

[speedbump]

I'm from a working class background but IMO, working class would nowadays actually mean those that too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state.

 

That would be the underclass.

[RockyBalboa]

You may like to add - (25 years later when I had paid off the mortgage).

 

 

Sorry couldn't help myself !!

 

 

 

[coppercrutch]

 

My duty to JKB is to warn people debt is bad.

 

I think even BBC & ITV are getting the hint....

 

Anyway, I was wondering why it was taking so long for a Hobo to enter the 'Working class' thread.........

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

My duty to JKB is to warn people debt is bad.

 

I think even BBC & ITV are getting the hint....

 

Anyway, I was wondering why it was taking so long for a Hobo to enter the 'Working class' thread.........:rolleyes:

 

In their case: Unter Klass...

[Tazio]

There is an odd anomaly in Scottish society where everyone seems keen to reinforce their "working class roots" In other countries people aspire to be middle-class, in Scotland people aspire to solid working class credentials.

 

I am without a doubt middle class, in lifestyle and employment.

[I P Knightley]

My full name is John Dickson Findlay.

 

Until I left school aged 16 I had always lived in council houses.

 

At the age of 20, 25yrs ago I got my first mortgage and became a homeowner. Twenty five years later, one failed marriage father of two. Re-married and about to become a dad again. Living once again in a council house but done anyone call me working class, middle class or upper class.

I am John Dickson Findlay simple as that.

 

 

 

John

 

Pure Class.

[Boris]

There is an odd anomaly in Scottish society where everyone seems keen to reinforce their "working class roots" In other countries people aspire to be middle-class, in Scotland people aspire to solid working class credentials.

 

I am without a doubt middle class, in lifestyle and employment.

 

Presbyterian work ethic indoctrinated at an early age coupled with reliance on heavy industry to employ the vast majority of the workforce, in the Central Belt at least could perhaps explain the preponderance to working class identity amongst Scots.

 

While Thatcherism was embraced by what was then seen as the traditional working class in the south east, it never really caught on up here, politically at least.

[I P Knightley]

Presbyterian work ethic indoctrinated at an early age coupled with reliance on heavy industry to employ the vast majority of the workforce, in the Central Belt at least could perhaps explain the preponderance to working class identity amongst Scots.

 

While Thatcherism was embraced by what was then seen as the traditional working class in the south east, it never really caught on up here, politically at least.

 

Glad you clarified with that final point.

 

There was no difficulty in latching on to a lot of the economic benefits of Thatcherism but the political side seems to have been as popular as a pork pie at a Bar-Mitzvah.

 

That Government was more instrumental than any other in shifting the make-up of working/middle classes. Now's the time to start reaping the longer-term ... erm.. 'benefits'???

[Boris]

Glad you clarified with that final point.

 

There was no difficulty in latching on to a lot of the economic benefits of Thatcherism but the political side seems to have been as popular as a pork pie at a Bar-Mitzvah.

 

That Government was more instrumental than any other in shifting the make-up of working/middle classes. Now's the time to start reaping the longer-term ... erm.. 'benefits'???

 

Or the perception of what it is/was.

[Stewart MacD]

Off-subject, I know but I recently bought at a discount bookshop "Fidel Castro handbook" by George G. Reduced from $A29.95 to 2.95. Published 2006 and printed in France. I see the UK price on the jacket is 14.99Stg. Obviously not a big seller. It's a small format book, but a good doorstop as it's about 430 pages and weighs about a brick. It's actually quite interesting.

 

Over here, everyone's middle-class, although Howard was regularly re-elected by "Howard's battlers", the working poor in the suburbs and new PM Rudd refers to "working families" in almost every sentence he utters.

[Boris]

Off-subject, I know but I recently bought at a discount bookshop "Fidel Castro handbook" by George G. Reduced from $A29.95 to 2.95. Published 2006 and printed in France. I see the UK price on the jacket is 14.99Stg. Obviously not a big seller. It's a small format book, but a good doorstop as it's about 430 pages and weighs about a brick. It's actually quite interesting.

 

Over here, everyone's middle-class, although Howard was regularly re-elected by "Howard's battlers", the working poor in the suburbs and new PM Rudd refers to "working families" in almost every sentence he utters.

 

How very "third way".

[Jarhead]

There is an odd anomaly in Scottish society where everyone seems keen to reinforce their "working class roots" In other countries people aspire to be middle-class, in Scotland people aspire to solid working class credentials.

 

I am without a doubt middle class, in lifestyle and employment.

 

Another part of that anomaly is that many of the people most vocal about how there should be no class destinctions go to great lengths to prove their working class credentials.

 

People should be careful what they wish for, the USA (allegedly) has no class system and look what they ended up with. No class!

[jamboj]

I think the worst human beiong alive for this must be none other than George 'I care about every political situation around the world except in my own constituency' Galloway.

 

Without doubt an immensely intelligent man but a tw*t of thie highest order.

 

He seems to think the only human beings worthy of breathing fresh air are the descendents of the Navies and mine workers and those themselves that get their 'hands dirty'

 

The guy is a clown. He is mega rich and is one of the biggest socialists in the land

 

smack!

 

Don't ever compliment that man, ever. The rest of your post is spot on though. That man drives me up the wall. People who listen to him and applaud his blatant showboating clearly have either no idea, or dont care, about the fact that he chose his constituency on the basis of its racial and social make-up, finding a poor place full of people he could stir into voting for him with his nonsense about upper class exploitation of the poor and western decadence. The man is a twisted, bitter, despicable, self involved idiot who is an embarrassment to Scotland, the UK and the human race in general.

[Boris]

Don't ever compliment that man, ever. The rest of your post is spot on though. That man drives me up the wall. People who listen to him and applaud his blatant showboating clearly have either no idea, or dont care, about the fact that he chose his constituency on the basis of its racial and social make-up, finding a poor place full of people he could stir into voting for him with his nonsense about upper class exploitation of the poor and western decadence. The man is a twisted, bitter, despicable, self involved idiot who is an embarrassment to Scotland, the UK and the human race in general.

 

Or a man of principle who felt he could represent those who were previously disenfranchised by a New Labour automaton.

[systemx]

The working class

Can kick my ass

I,ve got the gaffers job at last.

 

I used to be working class,working at the coalface at Monktonhall.Now I have a good job with a large telecoms provider I have become middle class according to my workmates(sorry team members!)

[i8hibsh]

Don't ever compliment that man, ever. The rest of your post is spot on though. That man drives me up the wall. People who listen to him and applaud his blatant showboating clearly have either no idea, or dont care, about the fact that he chose his constituency on the basis of its racial and social make-up, finding a poor place full of people he could stir into voting for him with his nonsense about upper class exploitation of the poor and western decadence. The man is a twisted, bitter, despicable, self involved idiot who is an embarrassment to Scotland, the UK and the human race in general.

 

Spot on, Can't disregard his intelligence but he is an erse

 

He is a sanctamonious sack of the highest order.

 

Likes to be the peoples representative on anything relating to social class, race or some kind of discrimation but is about as much use in Westminster as women!

 

I bet if you asked him what the latest budge cuts where he wouldn't have a clue. Ask him how Castro's son/ brother nephew are doing in power in cuba and he will write a thesis!

[Rick Grimes]

as a side note to this debate, we had a table listed on the intranet at work today about how the tax changes will affect people based on their annual salary.

 

in short, if you earn less than ?20k you'll be worse off, if you earn more you'll be better off. gotta love New "Labour" eh?

[i8hibsh]

Or a man of principle who felt he could represent those who were previously disenfranchised by a New Labour automaton.

 

Karl

 

The guy is an MP for the Great British Parliament and he spends his entire time concerning himself about how 2 Cuban men are not getting paid enough in an office in Havanna!

 

We pay his wages and what are we getting?

[i8hibsh]

as a side note to this debate, we had a table listed on the intranet at work today about how the tax changes will affect people based on their annual salary.

 

in short, if you earn less than ?20k you'll be worse off, if you earn more you'll be better off. gotta love New "Labour" eh?

 

I can see the point in it but I don't agree.

 

I think it is to give the people who earn squat a boot up their erse and try and better themselves

[Rick Grimes]

I can see the point in it but I don't agree.

 

I think it is to give the people who earn squat a boot up their erse and try and better themselves

 

 

you're kidding, right?

[Boris]

I can see the point in it but I don't agree.

 

I think it is to give the people who earn squat a boot up their erse and try and better themselves

 

Did you seriously think about your reply before you typed it?

[Boris]

 

Karl

 

The guy is an MP for the Great British Parliament and he spends his entire time concerning himself about how 2 Cuban men are not getting paid enough in an office in Havanna!

 

We pay his wages and what are we getting?

 

It is really of no concern to you what George Galloway does unless, of course, you are one of his constituents as it is they whom he represents.

 

Not sur eif he is concerned about what the Cuban President earns financially, but I may have missed something...

[Professor.Arturo]

In Marxist terms, the "dole bludgers" and those "too feckin' lazy to work and scrounge of the state" are what would be classed as Lumpen Proletariat. It is of course useful for the capitalist press to refer to these lumpen proles as proletarian so as to undermine the actual plight of the true proletariat.

 

Although the "traditional" working class may have the trappings of the "middle class", what in fact is happening is the swelling of the working class (proletariat) as the numbers within the bourgeois/petit bourgeois decreases, as is consistent with Capitalism.

 

To thihk of the working class as dirty faced manual workers in traditional heavy industry is an anachronism.

Ok, how do we stick that into a song for the next derby???

 

Back to the op, scrapping the 10p in the ? will hit the low paid, I will be slightly better off with the 2p reduction, but look at most jobs advertised...they offer ?5-?6ph minimum wage, most of those jobs you have to knock your pan in for. They should be paying a lower rate...not getting stung for more.

[Boris]

Ok, how do we stick that into a song for the next derby???

 

Back to the op, scrapping the 10p in the ? will hit the low paid, I will be slightly better off with the 2p reduction, but look at most jobs advertised...they offer ?5-?6ph minimum wage, most of those jobs you have to knock your pan in for. They should be paying a lower rate...not getting stung for more.

 

A) Don't know

 

Spot on.

[i8hibsh]

It is really of no concern to you what George Galloway does unless, of course, you are one of his constituents as it is they whom he represents.

 

Not sur eif he is concerned about what the Cuban President earns financially, but I may have missed something...

 

Are you clueless!!!

 

He doesn't just concern constituents he makes decisions on ALL matters in Westminster

 

That is very very very much a HUGE concern of mine

 

To re-iterrate a point I have clearly stressed twice now on this thread - I am not pro scrapping the 10p in the ?1 - I just can see the reasoning in it

 

FFS!

[Beverley]

as a side note to this debate, we had a table listed on the intranet at work today about how the tax changes will affect people based on their annual salary.

 

in short, if you earn less than ?20k you'll be worse off, if you earn more you'll be better off. gotta love New "Labour" eh?

 

is that right??

 

the beeb said ?17k the other day and someone at my work made a few calculations and thouht it was going to be closer to ?14. either way it sucks and is hitting those in lower paid jobs.

[Therapist]

either way it sucks and is hitting those in lower paid jobs.

 

Perhaps it should be viewed as an incentive to encourage people to set their sights on higher paid jobs?

[Beverley]

Perhaps it should be viewed as an incentive to encourage people to set their sights on higher paid jobs?

 

oh, what a good idea, if only we could all do that as easily as you all seem to think.

 

i know a lass, a degree in bio forensics and pychology, yet working in a call centre for approx ?14k

 

aye, its easy to make ?20k or more right enough

[Therapist]

i know a lass, a degree in bio forensics and pychology, yet working in a call centre for approx ?14k

 

I know loads of students like that and, to be honest, I've got little sympathy for them. Why don't they get a degree that's relevant to the real world?