WE CAN DEFEND WHY CANT WE GO FORWARD AND SCORE

[ROBBIECEE1874]

with the players we got how do we go forward to win games

[TheOak88]

Maybe play more than 1 up front would be a start and then take it from there.

[CMc]

9 goals scored (plus the one against Celtic) in the last 6 games. 8 conceded. I don't think the problems are all up front.

 

[Hansel]

It's tough to find balance in team selection, but I'd like to see two up front. That means playing 4 in midfield, or 3 at the back.

We're short of experienced strikers, apart from Elliott, so maybe it's time to play smith, Glen or play Temps up front.

[Debut 4]

Maybe play more than 1 up front would be a start and then take it from there.

indeed, i think the players have to give more though in body and mind. Are we(as a team) pushing ourselves to get results?

 

It seems to me we try and play too patient a game instead of getting the juices flowing and being a bit more direct and pressing teams higher. I always feel we let mediocre defences off the hook by playing one up and giving them too much time on the ball and hardly puting them under pressure....

 

Reminds me of Pre-JJ....

[Guest]

Maybe play more than 1 up front would be a start and then take it from there.

Have to agree with you there bud

[oh ah grantona]

for me glen up top he has the look of a natural goal scorer 6 months to prove himself give him the starts and bring smith on for last 20 therefore giving 2 youngsters a go

[amadjambo]

9 goals scored (plus the one against Celtic) in the last 6 games. 8 conceded. I don't think the problems are all up front.

 

 

Only 8 goals scored away all season and 5 of them vs the worst 2 teams in the league! Our problems are up front, certainly away from home anyway.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

its like we dont know what to do going forward and making a threat

[TheOak88]

indeed, i think the players have to give more though in body and mind. Are we(as a team) pushing ourselves to get results?

 

It seems to me we try and play too patient a game instead of getting the juices flowing and being a bit more direct and pressing teams higher. I always feel we let mediocre defences off the hook by playing one up and giving them too much time on the ball and hardly puting them under pressure....

 

Reminds me of Pre-JJ....

 

Agree with all of that mate. When was the last time (except Easter Road) when we have played away from home and the opposition center backs have had a really difficult time? They probably come off the pitch not even feeling like they have been in a game.

[Alwaysinourshadows]

Elliott and smith upfront would be a start

[CMc]

Only 8 goals scored away all season and 5 of them vs the worst 2 teams in the league! Our problems are up front, certainly away from home anyway.

 

I think I was more questioning the WE CAN DEFEND statement more than claiming that we are particularly prolific.

[Eckauskas]

Stop bypassing our midfield completely.

[TheOak88]

Elliott and smith upfront would be a start

 

I would go with that. Have never been a huge Glen fan TBH. Think Smith deserves a chance as well. Decent performances against Spurs and AT - and from what has been said a quite successful loan spell he had out at Stirling too.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

surely paulo knows we need two up front? whats he got against it?

[Johanes de Silentio]

whats he got against it?

 

If other teams flood the midfield, we're messed?

[Debut 4]

Smith maybe deserves a bash but i`d like to see Robinson further up the park maybe playing off Elliot.

 

Anyway, it may be old ground but it`s still an absolute joke the situ with Sutton.....however, what can we do?....

[2NaFish]

sutton scored two in a game.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

Smith maybe deserves a bash but i`d like to see Robinson further up the park maybe playing off Elliot.

 

Anyway, it may be old ground but it`s still an absolute joke the situ with Sutton.....however, what can we do?....

i think we had to get someone off the wage bill some how surely

[Rabbie_Burns]

with the players we got how do we go forward to win games

 

 

That you Mr Sergio ?

[ROBBIECEE1874]

If other teams flood the midfield, we're messed?

 

even at home atleast

[ROBBIECEE1874]

That you Mr Sergio ?

 

shhhh

 

clown

[amadjambo]

If other teams flood the midfield, we're messed?

 

When we are away most, if not all teams play 2 up front against us so they aren't worried about us flooding the midfield are they?!

[Johanes de Silentio]

even at home atleast

 

I'd prefer to see us be more attacking, but, when every point's a prisoner, coaches are forced to be pragmatic.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

Who knows hopefully paulos got something up his sleeve to get the players going fo rward

[Rabbie_Burns]

Who knows hopefully paulos got something up his sleeve to get the players going fo rward

 

sunday the 18th of March should do the trick...

[ROBBIECEE1874]

sunday the 18th of March should do the trick...

Hmmm goes without saying that some time to wait will slip down league badly by then haha

[Dr. Sheldon Cooper]

Folk need to understand that playing 4-4-2 won't automatically mean we create more chances and score more goals, the midfield will still need to do their jobs right. If we did play 4-4-2 and say it was Glen and Elliott, we start pumping the balls up to them and it will make absolutely no difference. You also need to have a perfect balance in midfield for 4-4-2 to work, if you play with two wingers then the two central players need to be hard-working, good in the tackle and at least one of them needs to be fairly creative. If you play with one winger, then it allows for a bit more fluidity in the middle. Who would folk play in midfield if we were to go 4-4-2?

 

The players need to believe in themselves going forward. Sergio will work with them all week in training, full backs overlapping, midfield playing the ball into channels, good movement etc etc. If they don't do that during the game, then what else can Sergio do? He can't hold their hand and walk them through the game. Our movement at times is absolutely shocking and the service to Elliott is almost non-existent. That needs to change.

[Harry Palmer]

No.6 likes to launch aimless balls out of defence.

 

Captain Zal likes to go for a wee run and look for a pass.

 

Wait, Captain Zal is not fit to wear the maroon shirt etc yet so many have him in the team..

 

Time Teflon Andy, (turned down a lucrative deal, went snivelling to his agent. Sent to Wigan was shite and scuttled back to the Orcs a few months later was shite there too. JJB deal eh?) Took some flak.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

Folk need to understand that playing 4-4-2 won't automatically mean we create more chances and score more goals, the midfield will still need to do their jobs right. If we did play 4-4-2 and say it was Glen and Elliott, we start pumping the balls up to them and it will make absolutely no difference. You also need to have a perfect balance in midfield for 4-4-2 to work, if you play with two wingers then the two central players need to be hard-working, good in the tackle and at least one of them needs to be fairly creative. If you play with one winger, then it allows for a bit more fluidity in the middle. Who would folk play in midfield if we were to go 4-4-2?

 

The players need to believe in themselves going forward. Sergio will work with them all week in training, full backs overlapping, midfield playing the ball into channels, good movement etc etc. If they don't do that during the game, then what else can Sergio do? He can't hold their hand and walk them through the game. Our movement at times is absolutely shocking and the service to Elliott is almost non-existent. That needs to change.

 

 

 

Good post

 

Elliot fot weeks has been chasing a lost cause all day long... Hopefully paulo gets it sorted! Suso and temps on the wings

[ROBBIECEE1874]

Paul hartley we could also so with him

[stirlo]

Only 8 goals scored away all season and 5 of them vs the worst 2 teams in the league! Our problems are up front, certainly away from home anyway.

 

Exactly.

 

We had plenty of possession today but I cannot remember their keeper having a save to make in the game. Suso, when he came on was the only player who looked like he could unlock their defence.

[ROBBIECEE1874]

No.6 likes to launch aimless balls out of defence.

 

Captain Zal likes to go for a wee run and look for a pass.

 

Wait, Captain Zal is not fit to wear the maroon shirt etc yet so many have him in the team..

 

Time Teflon Andy, (turned down a lucrative deal, went snivelling to his agent. Sent to Wigan was shite and scuttled back to the Orcs a few months later was shite there too. JJB deal eh?) Took some flak.

 

 

Captain zal makes these runs to try start something but no ones making no runs and it ends up coming back then big andy punts it up to elliot, elliot runs for it but doesnt get on the end of it =( .... Happens all the time...

[Harry Palmer]

Captain zal makes these runs to try start something but no ones making no runs and it ends up coming back then big andy punts it up to elliot, elliot runs for it but doesnt get on the end of it =( .... Happens all the time...

 

So we're in agreement then.

 

ps. nae need to shout earlier.

[portobellojambo1]

indeed, i think the players have to give more though in body and mind. Are we(as a team) pushing ourselves to get results?

 

It seems to me we try and play too patient a game instead of getting the juices flowing and being a bit more direct and pressing teams higher. I always feel we let mediocre defences off the hook by playing one up and giving them too much time on the ball and hardly puting them under pressure....

 

Reminds me of Pre-JJ....

 

I think the formation, as people have said on this thread, makes it difficult for the team to push itself at times, I actually think many of the players look very frustrated when we play with one up front, just as the fans get frustrated. If that one player is marked they either cannot be found, or if they do receive the ball they then often have no outlet as they are stuck on their lonesome.

 

It has been very noticeable in the two games today and against St Johnstone in the cup that we don't take the impetus when the opposition goes down to 10 men, because there is only one man up front, and we continue to struggle to firstly find him, and then get players supporting him.

 

Someone on the thread has mentioned that we have scored a certain number of goals in the last six games, but have conceded almost as many, so the problem is not necessarily related to things up front. I would disagree with that, since the turn of the year, and the game versus Hibs at Easter Road we have scored 11 goals and conceded 10 over the same period. In the game versus Hibs it was 1-1, until we switch to two up front, and we went on to win 3-1, we stuck with two up front versus St Mirren and won 5-2, so effectively scored 7 and conceded 2 when playing with two forward players. We reverted to one up front against Auchinleck and for the cup tie and three league games post St Mirren, and in those games we have scored 4 and conceded 8. I accept it is a very small sample of games but I do think it is reflective of how much better we are when on the offensive. Two up front also tends to mean the midfield are able to play slightly further forward. I don't think it is any coincidence that Skacel has looked best in the games against Hibs and St Mirren. In most of the others, with no forward to hold up and/or lay off the ball he has been ineffective. I also thought we looked slightly better 2nd half versus Celtic, when we played with two players forward.

 

It could be a case of playing to the sides strengths rather than the manager's preferred formation, assuming the end requirement is to increase our chances of winning games.

[J.C 7]

I think with the way we currently play we need to lift the tempo in the final 3rd more.

 

Being patient,keeping the ball at a low tempo is all well and good but we make it too easy for defences by not moving the ball quick enough, overloading teams with supporting players. For example how many teams get time to double up on temps.

 

Another point that was made in the scott robinson thread during the week was that no one from our midfield three supports the lone front player regularly,attacks the space,arrives in the box late. Whether this is by design or not im not sure and it doesnt always happen for skacel when he plays 'in the hole'. For all his qualities he is sometimes to easy to pick up in there.

 

We need to make the ball stick more in forward areas also.

[Mr Brightside]

Two up front doesn't automatically guarntee more goals, it's about the midfield being more creative and the striker being more clinical.

 

Most of the top teams in Europe have one up front and score plenty if goals, 442 is formation that is in the past andante attacking 451 is the way forward.

[Charlie-Brown]

Get someone better and more creative than Ian Black in our midfield.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Get someone better and more creative than Ian Black in our midfield.

 

Which one of the laddies do you think could fit the role?

[CMc]

I think the formation, as people have said on this thread, makes it difficult for the team to push itself at times, I actually think many of the players look very frustrated when we play with one up front, just as the fans get frustrated. If that one player is marked they either cannot be found, or if they do receive the ball they then often have no outlet as they are stuck on their lonesome.

 

It has been very noticeable in the two games today and against St Johnstone in the cup that we don't take the impetus when the opposition goes down to 10 men, because there is only one man up front, and we continue to struggle to firstly find him, and then get players supporting him.

 

Someone on the thread has mentioned that we have scored a certain number of goals in the last six games, but have conceded almost as many, so the problem is not necessarily related to things up front. I would disagree with that, since the turn of the year, and the game versus Hibs at Easter Road we have scored 11 goals and conceded 10 over the same period. In the game versus Hibs it was 1-1, until we switch to two up front, and we went on to win 3-1, we stuck with two up front versus St Mirren and won 5-2, so effectively scored 7 and conceded 2 when playing with two forward players. We reverted to one up front against Auchinleck and for the cup tie and three league games post St Mirren, and in those games we have scored 4 and conceded 8. I accept it is a very small sample of games but I do think it is reflective of how much better we are when on the offensive. Two up front also tends to mean the midfield are able to play slightly further forward. I don't think it is any coincidence that Skacel has looked best in the games against Hibs and St Mirren. In most of the others, with no forward to hold up and/or lay off the ball he has been ineffective. I also thought we looked slightly better 2nd half versus Celtic, when we played with two players forward.

 

It could be a case of playing to the sides strengths rather than the manager's preferred formation, assuming the end requirement is to increase our chances of winning games.

 

 

I said that I did not think the problems were only in the striking department. I was pointing out that we are conceding nearly as many as we score, and that removing a holding player in favour of a striker could well lead to conceding more.

 

Switching to 442could also have it's problems. Black, Robinson and Mroweic usually work well as a midfield trio due to having skills that compliment each other. I'm not sure that two out of the three would have the same effect Black and Robinson could be too lightweight, Mroweic and Black might not be mobile enough, Mrowiec and Robinson might not be creative enough, etc).

 

442 would work much better is we had a Hartley type creative box to box midfielder. Someone who could direct play and link with the attack but could also get back and help out the one out and out holding player that would be needed to balance the midfield (assuming we continued using two wingers).

 

Our problem is further complicated by the lack of strikers we have at the club now. Without Sutton we will struggle to get two proven forwards on the pitch. In theory we would create more goals and chances, but Smith is yet to prove himself and the others have struggled for goals.

 

Our problem seems to be that we do not have a player that can successfully play as a lone striker or a genuine playmaker. That means we have to chose between having a three man midfield while we struggle up front or two up front and problems of either creativity or competitiveness in the midfield.

[BigAlim]

the midfield are incapable of playing a through ball

[TheOak88]

Folk need to understand that playing 4-4-2 won't automatically mean we create more chances and score more goals, the midfield will still need to do their jobs right. If we did play 4-4-2 and say it was Glen and Elliott, we start pumping the balls up to them and it will make absolutely no difference. You also need to have a perfect balance in midfield for 4-4-2 to work, if you play with two wingers then the two central players need to be hard-working, good in the tackle and at least one of them needs to be fairly creative. If you play with one winger, then it allows for a bit more fluidity in the middle. Who would folk play in midfield if we were to go 4-4-2?

The players need to believe in themselves going forward. Sergio will work with them all week in training, full backs overlapping, midfield playing the ball into channels, good movement etc etc. If they don't do that during the game, then what else can Sergio do? He can't hold their hand and walk them through the game. Our movement at times is absolutely shocking and the service to Elliott is almost non-existent. That needs to change.

 

For me: Templeton Robinson Black Suso.

[Uncle Buck]

For me: Templeton Robinson Black Suso.

 

Far too lightweight. What's everyone's problem with Mrowiec?

[TheOak88]

Two up front doesn't automatically guarntee more goals, it's about the midfield being more creative and the striker being more clinical.

 

Most of the top teams in Europe have one up front and score plenty if goals, 442 is formation that is in the past andante attacking 451 is the way forward.

 

Mate, we are NOT a top team in Europe. We DON'T play in a league where teams play top European style football. We DON'T have players with the ability to play top European style football. The way that Barcelona and Real Madrid set out their respective teams should have no bearing what-so-ever on our team selection or tactics. They play a different sport to us - the only similarities being a ball and 22 men involved on a grass pitch.

[TheOak88]

Far too lightweight. What's everyone's problem with Mrowiec?

 

Don't have a problem with Mrowiec, just think he is generally a limited footballer - and will add nothing in terms of going forward and creativity. Would happily play Mrowiec against the OF but don't see why we need him at home to the likes of Killi and ICT etc.

 

Who would you have in a midfield 4 instead?

[Mr Brightside]

Mate, we are NOT a top team in Europe. We DON'T play in a league where teams play top European style football. We DON'T have players with the ability to play top European style football. The way that Barcelona and Real Madrid set out their respective teams should have no bearing what-so-ever on our team selection or tactics. They play a different sport to us - the only similarities being a ball and 22 men involved on a grass pitch.

 

Celtic pumped us 4 nil with 1 striker.

 

It's all about creativity in the midfield.

[Uncle Buck]

Don't have a problem with Mrowiec, just think he is generally a limited footballer - and will add nothing in terms of going forward and creativity. Would happily play Mrowiec against the OF but don't see why we need him at home to the likes of Killi and ICT etc.

 

Who would you have in a midfield 4 instead?

 

 

Templeton Black Mrowiec Skacel

 

However, I quite like 4-2-3-1 formation.

[hmfc_liam06]

the midfield are incapable of playing a through ball

 

I genuinely cannot remember the last time we sliced a team open with a thru ball or sent a striker thru one on one with the goalkeeper.

[TheOak88]

Celtic pumped us 4 nil with 1 striker.

 

It's all about creativity in the midfield.

 

Not sure why you quoted what I said, or how it related to what you said??. I didn't mention playing 1 striker or creativity in midfield?? Confused

[dougal]

The scary thing is that teams like Motherwell, St Johnstone, St Mirren and Killie are playing much better football than us. Yeah we've beaten St Mirren and Motherwell lately but all the teams mentioned have played better football than us. Our passing is poor. And the first touch of some players is abysmal, if you saw that control down the local park you'd be angry so as professionals it's shocking. It is something we need to work on.

 

As has been said we lack any real creativity and so until we can address that we're going to struggle.