Sone Aluko's Dive

[Del1812]

I'm less annoyed by the dive than I am by the fact the referee was right there and had a perfect view of it but still gave it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

Same ref that rewarded O'Connor's dive with a penalty.

 

Which leads me to believe it's incompetence rather than bias to blame for this.

[jambovambo]

Interesting sub-article in the herald today - true ... oh, so true ...

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/diving-without-due-caution-how-certain-physical-behaviours-reveal-themselves-in-the-science-of-falling-down.16074

 

Diving without due caution: how certain physical behaviours reveal themselves in the science of falling down

 

Stewart Fisher Sports Writer.

 

WHEN is a dive not a dive?

 

Pretty much whenever the football authorities are challenged retrospectively to prove it, a cynic might suggest. Recent history shows that governing bodies who attempt to take on simulation are usually only setting themselves up for a fall. Uefa and Fifa ran a mile when then SFA chief executive Gordon Smith suggested they should get serious on the subject a few years back and just perhaps this morning Stewart Regan and compliance officer Vincent Lunny are wishing the association had done likewise.

 

Lithuanian winger Saulius Mikoliunas never escaped the conclusion that he had been harshly dealt with when he incurred a two-match ban for diving to win his side a penalty in a 3-1 defeat in a Euro 2008 qualifying match against Scotland and perhaps Kyle Lafferty should feel likewise for the two-match ban he received for feigning a headbutt from Charlie Mulgrew [then of Aberdeen]. Because those two are the exceptions that prove the rule and, in both cases, the video evidence was overwhelming.

 

But whether it was UEFA overturning Eduardo's two-match ban on appeal for Arsenal against Celtic a few seasons back, the whole Jan Rezek affair at Hampden earlier this season, or the recent controversy involving Hibernian's Garry O'Connor against St Johnstone, whenever that old grey area of contact ? however minimal ? is allowed to intervene, the charges very rarely seem to stick. It is this context in which Rangers' refusal to accept the fixed penalty tariff of a two-match ban for Sone Aluko, in the wake of Saturday's 2-1 victory over Dunfermline Athletic, promises to be indicative of the SFA's new fast-track process. Aluko was touched on the forearm by Martin Hardie. It hardly seemed enough to send him crashing to the earth. But in the final analysis it may yet be enough to excuse the suspension.

 

Thankfully, Herald Sport has located one man who feels he has the answers to this thorny subject. Along with his colleague David Lewis, Dr Paul Morris, an expert on the embodiment of emotions and intentions in the Department of Psychology at the University of Portsmouth, has completed an academic study on the subject of simulation in football. He found that certain physical behaviours are commonly shared among players who dive. For the record, that doesn't mean he is volunteering to be part of the SFA's review panel any time soon.

 

"There are certain things that frame-by-frame analysis will really show," Morris said. "There is a simple thing about temporality. Often when you get a dive, there genuinely has been contact ? but if the cause and effect don't happen together, that is a sign you are going to have a closer look at the time aspect. The next one is the area of contact, the classic example being when someone gets an elbow in the chest, yet they clutch their face."

 

"The final aspect is how they fall," he added. "When you are tackled and you are genuinely falling over, the first thing people usually do is put their hands out to break their fall. But when people are diving, they are actually doing two things rather than one. Firstly they are trying to make out there has been more contact than there actually has been. The second task is to draw attention to the referee ? ie. when players stick their hands in the air. In a weird way, from a biomechanical point of view, when genuinely tripped up, a player never puts his hands above his head. You are either trying to break your fall, or regain your balance."

 

It all comes back to trying to interpret the intention of a player from the actions of his body. This is easy enough to form an individual or collective opinion about, but well nigh impossible to prove categorically.

 

"Essentially you are talking about an intention, and that is a psychological state," Morris said. "That may or may not be manifest clearly in behaviour, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In other words we cannot be 100% sure about what somebody's intention is. What we can do is notice that they do sometimes do this very odd thing that people never usually do. Or else they do the same things, in slightly the wrong order.

 

"If you look at these incidents, and I have looked at thousands of them," he added. "The ones authorities can safely deal with, would have to be fairly outrageous, exaggerated ones. Because it is really impossible to do with the more subtle ones, where players maybe just go down a little bit too easily. The balance should always be in the favour of the player who has gone down."

 

As most of the cases listed above would testify, it usually is.

[jamb0_1874]

Rangers have lost their case and the two game ban has been upheld.

[JamboAl]

Same ref that rewarded O'Connor's dive with a penalty.

 

Which leads me to believe it's incompetence rather than bias to blame for this.

 

If you want to underline your belief in his bias or incompetence, watch Saturday's game with Rangers on BBC highlights.

About 5 mins in you will see a Dunfy corner where Whittaker grapples with a Dunfy attacker with his arm round the guy's neck and wrestles him to the ground. The ref is standing just a few feet from the incident and does not award a penalty.

[ReillyD]

EEN view on matters.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/tom_english_o_connor_case_gives_aluko_a_leg_to_stand_on_1_1997165

[TheBigO]

For all those who think a two game ban for what is a yellow card offence is crazy: do you want rid of diving or not?

 

Here's my suggestion, which has been made on here before.

 

Dives should be met with a yellow card during a game. However, every instance of a dive is reviewed after and if upheld the yellow is increased to red and a two game ban. The same punishment is handed out for a dive which wasn't caught during the game, as with Aluko.

 

The problem is that we need a bigger deterrent, but straight reds for dives is simply too big a decision for a ref in real time and he'll be more likely to call in favour of the cheat (read Naismith, Aluko, O'Connor) in real game time. If he can give just a yellow in the game, and is encouraged to do so more often, then great.

 

And the SFA shouldn't rebuke refs who give yellows for dives who then have these yellows overturned - they want to encourage refs to give these cards. Bad decisions will be made, but we have to allow that to happen until such time as the message gets through to the players that it won't be tolerated.

 

It's retrospective bans for all dives, not just the succesful ones, basically.

[thirdyboy1976]

Why would you except a 2 match ban for something that would've been a yellow card in game time. I thought simulation was a yellow card offence

 

i had this argument with someone & i am assuming that it is because the penalty won the game...therefore rangers, yet again, cheated their way to 3 points.

[Jezza]

i had this argument with someone & i am assuming that it is because the penalty won the game...therefore rangers, yet again, cheated their way to 3 points.

 

It tricks the match officials into making the incorrect decision which could lead to a goal and a sending off for the opposition player. If this happens the player then gets a 2 game ban taking into consideration the benefits for the players' team had in the game.

 

If the ref catches him diving it does nothing of the above and therefore only merits a caution.

 

I think that's the official line anyway.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

It tricks the match officials into making the incorrect decision which could lead to a goal and a sending off for the opposition player. If this happens the player then gets a 2 game ban taking into consideration the benefits for the players' team had in the game.

 

If the ref catches him diving it does nothing of the above and therefore only merits a caution.

 

I think that's the official line anyway.

 

 

Yep that's how I understand it.

 

It does nothing to compensate the cheated team though.

[Jezza]

Yep that's how I understand it.

 

It does nothing to compensate the cheated team though.

 

Yep. This was agreed across the board in the SPL too when the decision was made.

 

I'm not sure what they could do to compensate the cheated side though to be honest apart from a ref card being rescinded?

[colinmaroon]

Yep. This was agreed across the board in the SPL too when the decision was made.

 

I'm not sure what they could do to compensate the cheated side though to be honest apart from a ref card being rescinded?

 

 

It was a spurious appeal and the punishment should have been increased!

 

 

Also, McIntyre should get off with a warning as he was obviously provoked by this cheat and his colluding manager!

 

I hope Gordon Smith will have a serious word with McCoist!!!

 

in the wind!!!

[Jezza]

It was a spurious appeal and the punishment should have been increased!

 

 

Also, McIntyre should get off with a warning as he was obviously provoked by this cheat and his colluding manager!

 

I hope Gordon Smith will have a serious word with McCoist!!!

 

in the wind!!!

 

 

The SFA will see it as the referee being tricked by the cheating player into making a mistake therefore clear them of any mistake or wrong doing.

 

It's not right but McIntyre criticising match officials means he's only got himself to blame if he's getting into trouble.

 

I genuinely think the SFA will see it as a player conning one of there employees and the manager attacking the employee and will feel sorry for themselves and not Dunfermline Athletic.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Yep. This was agreed across the board in the SPL too when the decision was made.

 

I'm not sure what they could do to compensate the cheated side though to be honest apart from a ref card being rescinded?

 

Reverse the result or declare it a draw

[Jezza]

Reverse the result or declare it a draw

 

 

I don't the SFA would have the power to do so unfortunately, it would have to come from Fifa.

[Dunks]

One assumes that supper ally will now be severely censured for his comments.

 

No doubt one assumes wrong however

[hearts_crazy]

There was some utter and complete bell end on Real Radio last night getting all hot under the collar because Alan Rough dared suggest it was a dive. Apparently there was 'contact in the box' . No being funny but if we had a penalty every time someone touches someone else in the box there wouldn't be any time left for playing the game. No way on Earth was that enough contact to send someone spawling across the box, it went right over this roaster's head that this is what the issue is, not that there was 'contact', but that what followed was pure simulation and got him awarded a penalty for what was no more than a touch on the shoulder. Ridiculous. And actually even more ridiculous that the ref was taken in by it in the first place.

 

I heard Steven Whittaker on the radio earlier on banging on about how there isn't a diving problem at rangers. As I say, this was on the radio, so I don't know if he had a straight face when he said that, If so then he's a wonderful actor. So Steven, you don't think Kris Boyd (when he was there) Gary Naismith, Nikicia Jelavic, Kyle Lafferty and indeed you yourself among others I can't be bothered thinking about are prone to a touch of simulation then? Don't talk shite you utter clown, every team has divers, but the Old Firm definately have the lion's share of dirty cheating bawbags in our league, FACT.

 

Oh and at Ally McCoist: He got caught cheating, he got punished, deal with it. Punishment for simulation is not just for non Old Firm teams you know so dry your eyes and shut the **** up.

[DETTY29]

There was some utter and complete bell end on Real Radio last night getting all hot under the collar because Alan Rough dared suggest it was a dive. Apparently there was 'contact in the box' . No being funny but if we had a penalty every time someone touches someone else in the box there wouldn't be any time left for playing the game. No way on Earth was that enough contact to send someone spawling across the box, it went right over this roaster's head that this is what the issue is, not that there was 'contact', but that what followed was pure simulation and got him awarded a penalty for what was no more than a touch on the shoulder. Ridiculous. And actually even more ridiculous that the ref was taken in by it in the first place.

 

I heard Steven Whittaker on the radio earlier on banging on about how there isn't a diving problem at rangers. As I say, this was on the radio, so I don't know if he had a straight face when he said that, If so then he's a wonderful actor. So Steven, you don't think Kris Boyd (when he was there) Gary Naismith, Nikicia Jelavic, Kyle Lafferty and indeed you yourself among others I can't be bothered thinking about are prone to a touch of simulation then? Don't talk shite you utter clown, every team has divers, but the Old Firm definately have the lion's share of dirty cheating bawbags in our league, FACT.

 

Oh and at Ally McCoist: He got caught cheating, he got punished, deal with it. Punishment for simulation is not just for non Old Firm teams you know so dry your eyes and shut the **** up.

Rangers have been, and always will be the biggest on field cheats and divers in Scotland.

 

They are now getting punished since the introduction of the Compliance Officer, not because they have just started, but someone now has a formal remit to intervene.

 

There is still the issue that despite blatantly obvious decisions to make, Brines and Conroy construed to make grave and inexcusable decisions that directly impacted the game (esp Pars on Saturday). The CO remit should also include investigating why the refs got 2 relatively simple decisions so wrong.

[Nicholas Brody]

Ally McCoist

[Greedy_Jambo]

They're going on about it AGAIN tonight on real radio phone in saying the same shit they said last night.

 

Can Romanov no come out with some mad statement or something cos this is tedious stuff.

[milky_26]

mccoist saying that the panel was wrong and are calling his player a liar and a cheat. lets see if he gets brought up by the sfa

[Jezza]

Sone Aluko wasn't a cheat before he went to rangers - this is simply because he knows he will get a decision in his favour if he plays in Glasgow.

[Victorian]

embarrassing statement from mccoist. it's either a brazen attempt to play with celtic's pack of victim cards, or it's an attempt to perpetuate the horrendous theory that contact = foul = no cheating.

 

mccoist doesn't care that the game of football is rife with this type of cheating. no interest in the game becoming cleaner. all that matters is that his team can continue to try it on at every juncture. if the contact = foul = no cheating myth was destroyed then his lot might have to learn how to win another way.

[cumbernauldjambo83]

Sone Aluko wasn't a cheat before he went to rangers

 

It's simply the Rangers way!

[colinmaroon]

McCoist has made a complete and utter fool of himself!

 

Ally, just because someone else gets away with murder, doesn't justify the act!

 

Complaining about the compliance officer because he knows nothing about football! Your problem, might be Ally, that he's not a Rangers lackey!

 

And, anyway, the appeal committee are football people (Never thought I'd see the day, right enough, when I lauded a decision by McCluskey).

[Greedy_Jambo]

I don't know why Ally is so upset. Aluko will pay the ?1000 for the appeal anyway.

[Sten Guns]

I heard Steven Whittaker on the radio earlier on banging on about how there isn't a diving problem at rangers. As I say, this was on the radio, so I don't know if he had a straight face when he said that, If so then he's a wonderful actor. So Steven, you don't think Kris Boyd (when he was there) Gary Naismith, Nikicia Jelavic, Kyle Lafferty and indeed you yourself among others I can't be bothered thinking about are prone to a touch of simulation then? Don't talk shite you utter clown, every team has divers, but the Old Firm definately have the lion's share of dirty cheating bawbags in our league, FACT.

 

 

Did you actually expect Whittaker to say live on radio there was a diving problem at Rangers?

 

Take a deep breath, son.

[DETTY29]

 

Did you actually expect Whittaker to say live on radio there was a diving problem at Rangers?

 

Take a deep breath, son.

Of course not, but the press have said there is one at Hearts.

 

And in my 30 years of watching football, Rangers have always been the biggest culprits.

 

And never a mention from the press.

 

And the irony of Gordon Smith being the CEO at Rangers.

 

Do you think he will have a word in McCoist ear to stop it? Of course not. He'll have had a word with Campbell Ogilvie to ask the SFA to lay off though.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

I look forward to Rangers FC being fined tens of thousands for McCoist's accusation that "the SFA are out to get our club"..........................................

[Heartbeat]

Mcmoist has made a real fool of himself here

I know we all tend to look at things with a biased opinion when we have our own team involved but ffs that was shocking. I had read all the reports etc before I viewed the footage and frankly its up there with the worst, yet I dont see any great backlash against Aluko. On the contrary we seem to have the press and BBC giving rancers a platform to say how indignant they are.

 

Every time something like this occurs I cant but help think of Miko who was hunted out of this country and an almost racist witch hunt took place. Yep he dived but it is not even up there for the worst.

 

I am perplexed how Mcmoist can even look at that and defend it in any way shape or form, maybe they are learning from the vicTims and adopting the "if you shout loud enough" strategy

[Victorian]

the jibe at mccluskey was real classy. i wonder if that's an example of the famous rangers dignity that they hold so dear.

 

hopefully that jibe will come back to bite him on the ****** the next time one of his cheats / thugs is up again.

[nelboy1874]

I was particularly peturbed by McCoist's attack on the compliance officer, saying he hasn't played professional football so wouldn't be in a position to judge whether a person dived or not. I think even Stevie Wonder could have seen it was a dive. He never played professionally to the best of my knowledge....

[wavydavy]

mccoist saying that the panel was wrong and are calling his player a liar and a cheat. lets see if he gets brought up by the sfa

 

He also stated that the person in charge of the panel was an ex referee and that his decisions were just as bad now as they had been when he was a ref.

 

That must be taken as bringing the game into disrepute so a fine for Mr McCoist please

[JWL]

Can't quite get my head round McCoists comments on this one. It is as clear a dive as I have Coistever seen, including Miko. I have always thought off McCoist as a prick, but this takes some beating. I would say however, that a fine for his comments will not be forthcoming.

[phoenix]

Interesting sub-article in the herald today - true ... oh, so true ...

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/diving-without-due-caution-how-certain-physical-behaviours-reveal-themselves-in-the-science-of-falling-down.16074

 

Diving without due caution: how certain physical behaviours reveal themselves in the science of falling down

 

Stewart Fisher Sports Writer.

 

WHEN is a dive not a dive?

 

Pretty much whenever the football authorities are challenged retrospectively to prove it, a cynic might suggest. Recent history shows that governing bodies who attempt to take on simulation are usually only setting themselves up for a fall. Uefa and Fifa ran a mile when then SFA chief executive Gordon Smith suggested they should get serious on the subject a few years back and just perhaps this morning Stewart Regan and compliance officer Vincent Lunny are wishing the association had done likewise.

 

Lithuanian winger Saulius Mikoliunas never escaped the conclusion that he had been harshly dealt with when he incurred a two-match ban for diving to win his side a penalty in a 3-1 defeat in a Euro 2008 qualifying match against Scotland and perhaps Kyle Lafferty should feel likewise for the two-match ban he received for feigning a headbutt from Charlie Mulgrew [then of Aberdeen]. Because those two are the exceptions that prove the rule and, in both cases, the video evidence was overwhelming.

 

But whether it was UEFA overturning Eduardo's two-match ban on appeal for Arsenal against Celtic a few seasons back, the whole Jan Rezek affair at Hampden earlier this season, or the recent controversy involving Hibernian's Garry O'Connor against St Johnstone, whenever that old grey area of contact ? however minimal ? is allowed to intervene, the charges very rarely seem to stick. It is this context in which Rangers' refusal to accept the fixed penalty tariff of a two-match ban for Sone Aluko, in the wake of Saturday's 2-1 victory over Dunfermline Athletic, promises to be indicative of the SFA's new fast-track process. Aluko was touched on the forearm by Martin Hardie. It hardly seemed enough to send him crashing to the earth. But in the final analysis it may yet be enough to excuse the suspension.

 

Thankfully, Herald Sport has located one man who feels he has the answers to this thorny subject. Along with his colleague David Lewis, Dr Paul Morris, an expert on the embodiment of emotions and intentions in the Department of Psychology at the University of Portsmouth, has completed an academic study on the subject of simulation in football. He found that certain physical behaviours are commonly shared among players who dive. For the record, that doesn't mean he is volunteering to be part of the SFA's review panel any time soon.

 

"There are certain things that frame-by-frame analysis will really show," Morris said. "There is a simple thing about temporality. Often when you get a dive, there genuinely has been contact ? but if the cause and effect don't happen together, that is a sign you are going to have a closer look at the time aspect. The next one is the area of contact, the classic example being when someone gets an elbow in the chest, yet they clutch their face."

 

"The final aspect is how they fall," he added. "When you are tackled and you are genuinely falling over, the first thing people usually do is put their hands out to break their fall. But when people are diving, they are actually doing two things rather than one. Firstly they are trying to make out there has been more contact than there actually has been. The second task is to draw attention to the referee ? ie. when players stick their hands in the air. In a weird way, from a biomechanical point of view, when genuinely tripped up, a player never puts his hands above his head. You are either trying to break your fall, or regain your balance."

 

It all comes back to trying to interpret the intention of a player from the actions of his body. This is easy enough to form an individual or collective opinion about, but well nigh impossible to prove categorically.

 

"Essentially you are talking about an intention, and that is a psychological state," Morris said. "That may or may not be manifest clearly in behaviour, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In other words we cannot be 100% sure about what somebody's intention is. What we can do is notice that they do sometimes do this very odd thing that people never usually do. Or else they do the same things, in slightly the wrong order.

 

"If you look at these incidents, and I have looked at thousands of them," he added. "The ones authorities can safely deal with, would have to be fairly outrageous, exaggerated ones. Because it is really impossible to do with the more subtle ones, where players maybe just go down a little bit too easily. The balance should always be in the favour of the player who has gone down."

 

As most of the cases listed above would testify, it usually is.

 

I remember Davie Wilson the Rangers winger once saying that when you're genuinely brought down by a bad tackle it's not your hands that hit the ground first it's your face...

[phoenix]

I remember Davie Wilson the Rangers winger once saying that when you're genuinely brought down by a bad tackle it's not your hands that hit the ground first it's your face...

 

McCoist has previous hmself of course...48 seconds in

 

[Drylaw Hearts]

Ally McCoist is a complete and utter tosspot.