The German Pyramid system compared to our joke system.

[i8hibsh]

Having just returned from what has been my 5th German football game, it is just impossible to not see how much it shows up the SFA,SPL and SFL

 

For those that do not know, here is the link for the German pyramid system.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_football_league_system

 

 

Germany and it?s population of 82 million people have less league clubs than Scotland and it?s population of 5 million. It has promotion and relegation at all levels and has the 50 + 1 system (no more than 49 % of the club should be owned by ?non local/fans?)

 

http://www.topnews.in/sports/german-football-league-sticks-50-1-rule-25885

 

 

It is dirt cheap to get in, they have terracing and you can view a game and enjoy beer like mature adults.

 

I watched the Eintracht Frankfurt game and to be fair the game on show was not great and would not have been out of place in the SPL. However they had 35,000 fans their and Frankfurt are in 2.Bundesliga!!!

 

It is all about the overall package ? it is a good day out. They can sing unrestricted and uncensored songs and it is all value for money.

 

The cash free bars and food stalls an even bigger example of German efficiency (you put money on a card from the local stewards/vendors).

 

Now we have 42 league clubs, with 1 man and a dog attending the majority of them, to an overall package that is disgustingly overpriced and is an absolute cow pat of a package. Where we are herded in like animals, treated like 2nd class citizens and not respected or trusted enough as adults to stand or enjoy a beer.

 

Now I know people will say Germany can do all this as it is so big, but there is nothing I have seen at a German game that we can?t implement. We and every league in the world should use them as a template.

[scott_jambo]

Having just returned from what has been my 5th German football game, it is just impossible to not see how much it shows up the SFA,SPL and SFL

 

For those that do not know, here is the link for the German pyramid system.

 

http://en.wikipedia....l_league_system

 

 

Germany and it?s population of 82 million people have less league clubs than Scotland and it?s population of 5 million. It has promotion and relegation at all levels and has the 50 + 1 system (no more than 49 % of the club should be owned by ?non local/fans?)

 

http://www.topnews.i...50-1-rule-25885

 

 

It is dirt cheap to get in, they have terracing and you can view a game and enjoy beer like mature adults.

 

I watched the Eintracht Frankfurt game and to be fair the game on show was not great and would not have been out of place in the SPL. However they had 35,000 fans their and Frankfurt are in 2.Bundesliga!!!

 

It is all about the overall package ? it is a good day out. They can sing unrestricted and uncensored songs and it is all value for money.

 

The cash free bars and food stalls an even bigger example of German efficiency (you put money on a card from the local stewards/vendors).

 

Now we have 42 league clubs, with 1 man and a dog attending the majority of them, to an overall package that is disgustingly overpriced and is an absolute cow pat of a package. Where we are herded in like animals, treated like 2nd class citizens and not respected or trusted enough as adults to stand or enjoy a beer.

 

Now I know people will say Germany can do all this as it is so big, but there is nothing I have seen at a German game that we can?t implement. We and every league in the world should use them as a template.

 

You do realise that if we have a pyramid system that doesn't automatically mean dirt cheap tickets, standing terraces, better quality of player, cash free bars, food stalls, unrestricted songs, enjoying beers and being treated like 1st class citizens.

 

As for being treated like a mature adult at the game. You have a long way to go before you earn that particular title.

 

 

Anyway, the real purpose of this thread:

 

 

I8HIBSH WENT 2 GERMANY AND WATCHED A FOOTBALL GAME EVERYONEZ.

[Charlie-Brown]

Consumer choice is the reason there are and should remain at least 42 senior clubs in Scotland, by all means restructure the leagues and have a hierarchical pyramid structure for all non league clubs beneath the top level but don't tell people and fans their team & club shouldn't exist. Who plays God and deicdes which clubs are worthy/unworthy?

[Splog]

They can sing unrestricted and uncensored songs and it is all value for money.

 

Hang on, i'm new to this emoticon lark, but i believe something along the lines of this:

 

about sums that up.

[Grainger]

but don't tell people and fans their team & club shouldn't exist. Who plays God and deicdes which clubs are worthy/unworthy?

 

Obviously that's not what I8 says. If we have 2 top leagues of 16, say, I think that would bring our structure down to a sustainable level. The remaining 10 clubs would drop down to non league status (not cease to exist!) and then they can work their way back into the league if they are good enough. That's how a proper pyramid system should work and I think it is something that we should implement.

 

I do agree though that by changing to this style of structure isn't going to suddenly make Scottish Football an attractive product. There needs to be wholesale changes to the way our game is run for it to be classed as a viable, marketable product. German football has a lot of good things about it and I just wish the high heid yins in this country (and the fans, too) would have the guts to go for it.

[benny]

Would we be relegated under the German system.Do they not have rules to relegate clubs with money problems.

[i8hibsh]

It is not anyone's right to wipe clubs out but it seems to be happening naturally through attrition.

 

I think perhaps clubs need to think long and hard and see merging as the only alternative to extinction.

 

Do we need so many clubs in Fife for example? The West Coast has too mnay also (considering that the majority of the West take the easy way out and go green or blue).

 

Scottish football must make drastic action.

 

42 league clubs

 

Annan Athletic getting 400 fans

[Charlie-Brown]

It is not anyone's right to wipe clubs out but it seems to be happening naturally through attrition.

 

I think perhaps clubs need to think long and hard and see merging as the only alternative to extinction.

 

Do we need so many clubs in Fife for example? The West Coast has too mnay also (considering that the majority of the West take the easy way out and go green or blue).

 

Scottish football must make drastic action.

 

42 league clubs

 

Annan Athletic getting 400 fans

 

Annan is a small town with a population of less than 8.5K so crowds of 400 is 5% of the population - more than HMFC get from Edinburgh & the Lothians on a like for like % of population.

 

Fife has 4 teams because people from 4 different towns in Fife support their clubs and they play at various levels in the Scottish League structure, they exist because their fans still want them to exist and the clubs have to adjust to whatever income levels they generate.

[i8hibsh]

Annan is a small town with a population of less than 8.5K so crowds of 400 is 5% of the population - more than HMFC get from Edinburgh & the Lothians on a like for like % of population.

 

Fife has 4 teams because people from 4 different towns in Fife support their clubs and they play at various levels in the Scottish League structure, they exist because their fans still want them to exist and the clubs have to adjust to whatever income levels they generate.

 

 

Anna have no place in league football. But I realise they got their fair and square. The blame lies with the powers that be.

 

the whole Gretna thing thing

[super_vlad]

For a start Scotland does not have more league clubs than germany, don't know how you got that from.

 

I love German football, but you have to look deep down to find out how they have changed their league around, it didn't happen over night!

 

1. Look at the percentage of the country that plays and follows football compered to other sports

 

2. The ownership of clubs is the biggest factor for me, without wanting to seem like maggie, she was right when she talked about owning a part of the state means that you care more about it! Look at Hearts these days, its not ours, its his, it just feels wrong.

 

3. Condition that we play football in! I can understand why its not easy for the SPL to change to summer football but why in gods name does the SFL not change?

 

4. Investment - there has to be state investment in the game and it has to come from the bottom up. Have a look at how much the german govt threw at the game in the early days to get it to where it is.

 

there are many other reasons, but these 4 would come before anything else in my book.

 

(trust me i would rather be pushed by a steward at tynie then get a baton in my face from the cops at german football.)

[world_3]

The cash free bars and food stalls an even bigger example of German efficiency (you put money on a card from the local stewards/vendors).

 

As far as I can make out the cash free bars and food stalls are hated by the Germans. I went to a Bayern Munich game last season and their own fans were demostrating against them by blocking access to them.

 

But German football is definitely the mutt's nuts though.

[Charlie-Brown]

For a start Scotland does not have more league clubs than germany, don't know how you got that from.

 

I love German football, but you have to look deep down to find out how they have changed their league around, it didn't happen over night!

 

1. Look at the percentage of the country that plays and follows football compered to other sports

 

2. The ownership of clubs is the biggest factor for me, without wanting to seem like maggie, she was right when she talked about owning a part of the state means that you care more about it! Look at Hearts these days, its not ours, its his, it just feels wrong.

 

3. Condition that we play football in! I can understand why its not easy for the SPL to change to summer football but why in gods name does the SFL not change?

 

4. Investment - there has to be state investment in the game and it has to come from the bottom up. Have a look at how much the german govt threw at the game in the early days to get it to where it is.

there are many other reasons, but these 4 would come before anything else in my book.

 

(trust me i would rather be pushed by a steward at tynie then get a baton in my face from the cops at german football.)

 

No absolutely NOT! NO tax-payers money for football - football generates enormous amounts of money and can easily funds all it's own development needs. Football makes poor choices about how it distributes it's income as the overwhelming percentage is paid into the pockets of the players and their agents. Football should cap the % amount spent on playing staff costs and mandate the rest be spent covering other costs including youth or grassroots development.

[i8hibsh]

Because Germany (unlike Scotland) is not corrupt they can have many different teams winning the Bundesliga.

 

Germany have had 7 different champions in the past 20 years.

 

We have had 2 in the past 27, and we will never see anymore than the Old Firm ever win it.

 

The first division downwards knows their league is pointless as there's such little promotioal opportunity so that's a factor for the low attendances also.

 

TV evidence and it would definately put bums on seats as the OF wont cheat week in week our.

[Boris]

A couple of things that I think hold Scottish Football back....

 

1) Three governing bodies. Not needed. One would do a la the DFB

 

2) I actualy agree to an extent that there are too many league clubs, however as in most things simple economics will dictate survival (at all levels!)

 

Our leagues need reconstructed though to make things more lively. Playing 4 times a season against Rantic is murder. Play each other twice, home and away and see how this affects the title race.

 

Ironically that's what we used to have until the Premier League was formed in 1975....but something needs done.

[mutley]

Eh, they can't sing unrestricted songs

[Problem Officer?]

German football is the best in the world right now IMO.

[Optimus Prime]

Consumer choice is the reason there are and should remain at least 42 senior clubs in Scotland, by all means restructure the leagues and have a hierarchical pyramid structure for all non league clubs beneath the top level but don't tell people and fans their team & club shouldn't exist. Who plays God and deicdes which clubs are worthy/unworthy?

 

I don't think anybodys advocating that you put clubs out of business. However open up the structure to let your Auchinleks, Spartans and Whitehill Welfares of this world in. It will force some teams who are floating about the SFL to up their game, sink or swim and the deadwood will sink.

[Auld Reekin']

Eh, they can't sing unrestricted songs

 

Correct. I am led to believe that such catchy ditties as 'Horst-Wessel-Lied', and other "traditionalist" anthems, are very much frowned-upon...

[leginten]

Having just returned from what has been my 5th German football game, it is just impossible to not see how much it shows up the SFA,SPL and SFL

 

For those that do not know, here is the link for the German pyramid system.

 

http://en.wikipedia....l_league_system

 

 

Germany and it?s population of 82 million people have less league clubs than Scotland and it?s population of 5 million. It has promotion and relegation at all levels and has the 50 + 1 system (no more than 49 % of the club should be owned by ?non local/fans?)

 

http://www.topnews.i...50-1-rule-25885

 

 

It is dirt cheap to get in, they have terracing and you can view a game and enjoy beer like mature adults.

 

I watched the Eintracht Frankfurt game and to be fair the game on show was not great and would not have been out of place in the SPL. However they had 35,000 fans their and Frankfurt are in 2.Bundesliga!!!

 

It is all about the overall package ? it is a good day out. They can sing unrestricted and uncensored songs and it is all value for money.

 

The cash free bars and food stalls an even bigger example of German efficiency (you put money on a card from the local stewards/vendors).

 

Now we have 42 league clubs, with 1 man and a dog attending the majority of them, to an overall package that is disgustingly overpriced and is an absolute cow pat of a package. Where we are herded in like animals, treated like 2nd class citizens and not respected or trusted enough as adults to stand or enjoy a beer.

 

Now I know people will say Germany can do all this as it is so big, but there is nothing I have seen at a German game that we can?t implement. We and every league in the world should use them as a template.

 

I recommend you give the Horst-Wessel-Lied or something similar an airing at your next Bundesliga outing just to confirm your theory about uncensored songs. I'm sure no harm will come of it.

 

The three Bundesligen contain more teams than the four senior Scottish leagues, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

 

Cashless bars are a pain in the arse. Dying for a drink and you get sent from pillar to post to get your stupid voucher.

 

Your desire to see so many clubs in Scotland fold is bizarre. Edinburgh United, anyone?

 

I agree we should have a pyramid system in Scotland; it's a small enough country for a unitary association and a truly national structure to make sense. More incentive, more interest, more cohesion.

 

 

 

[i8hibsh]

I recommend you give the Horst-Wessel-Lied or something similar an airing at your next Bundesliga outing just to confirm your theory about uncensored songs. I'm sure no harm will come of it.

 

The three Bundesligen contain more teams than the four senior Scottish leagues, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

 

Cashless bars are a pain in the arse. Dying for a drink and you get sent from pillar to post to get your stupid voucher.

 

Your desire to see so many clubs in Scotland fold is bizarre. Edinburgh United, anyone?

 

I agree we should have a pyramid system in Scotland; it's a small enough country for a unitary association and a truly national structure to make sense. More incentive, more interest, more cohesion.

 

 

Well it is just common sense that songs like that are not allowed.

 

That?s not what I meant.

 

I wouldn?t expect people to sing songs about child abuse or murder at football games ? or anything else highly inappropriate, but most songs that have been aired in Scotland should be allowed.

 

You can?t even swear nowadays.

 

We are in a cotton wool society.

[Socrates]

Come on, tell us how you decided that there was no censorship of inappropriate songs. Also, do you speak any German at all?

 

Finally, given your new found liking for Germany, can you confirm or deny that you were once an unused substitute for Carlisle United?

[Socrates]

Well it is just common sense that songs like that are not allowed.

 

That?s not what I meant.

 

I wouldn?t expect people to sing songs about child abuse or murder at football games ? or anything else highly inappropriate, but most songs that have been aired in Scotland should be allowed.

 

You can?t even swear nowadays.

 

We are in a cotton wool society.

So, let me get this straight. Nasty bigoted songs should not be allowed, except if they are nasty bigoted Scottish songs, because those are all right, and anyone who says otherwise is a hand-wringing, PC, cotton-wool loving weirdo.

[mutley]

So they can sing what they want then, unless its racist, sectarian, xenophobic etc. Sounds familiar.

Did your carer have a good time?

[J.C 7]

Anna have no place in league football. But I realise they got their fair and square. The blame lies with the powers that be.

 

the whole Gretna thing thing

 

Have you ever been to Annan? Theyve probably got one of the better set ups in the lower leagues,to say they have no place is nonesense. Are they getting hammered 20-0 every week? No.

 

Your Op is fairly interesting but then youve done the usual and went overboard.

[edin1874]

I recommend you give the Horst-Wessel-Lied or something similar an airing at your next Bundesliga outing just to confirm your theory about uncensored songs. I'm sure no harm will come of it.

 

The three Bundesligen contain more teams than the four senior Scottish leagues, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

Cashless bars are a pain in the arse. Dying for a drink and you get sent from pillar to post to get your stupid voucher.

 

Your desire to see so many clubs in Scotland fold is bizarre. Edinburgh United, anyone?

 

I agree we should have a pyramid system in Scotland; it's a small enough country for a unitary association and a truly national structure to make sense. More incentive, more interest, more cohesion.

 

Only if you are slow in the head and fail to plan ahead. I assume the smart people top up their card in advance - and very much enjoy getting a pint at half time quick sharp - rather than waiting around for people to faff around with change and the likes.

 

I mean - the service at Tynie for example is superb. Lucky if you get served within 15 minutes at half time. I was in Germany a few years back and got served beer at half time with ZERO wait. I was more than happy as I had topped up my card. And the ground I was in had top up points all around the stadium.

 

Cashless bars - brilliant - unless you are a little slow.