CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 With no one players currently defining the "Mak?l?l?" role at the moment, who, in your opinion, is the best holding player in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think that role has evolved in the last few years and it requires a player who is technically good as well as being a great 'spoiler'. They are expected to be at the start of moves now coming deep and collecting the ball from the defence. It's probably a new role called the Busquets role now with the likes of Alonso, Essien, Busquets and Mrowiec being the best at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Alonso is the daddy in this role IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Alonso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think that role has evolved in the last few years and it requires a player who is technically good as well as being a great 'spoiler'. They are expected to be at the start of moves now coming deep and collecting the ball from the defence. It's probably a new role called the Busquets role now with the likes of Alonso, Essien, Busquets and Mrowiec being the best at it. Or perhaps it is now a role too big for just one man. It could now be better to have three players who are not great at either tackling or passing. The Mrosonack role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClure Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Ian Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Xabi Alonso, without a shadow of a doubt. Gives Real and Spain a consistent platform to build offence. Can fair strike the ball also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Can Alonso really be counted as a holding midfielder? Or is it a position that is dying out at top level football? Is it now just a British novelty item? Alonso seems to suggest as much in a recent interview. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he says. "It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Toure Yaya sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamdub Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think that role has evolved in the last few years and it requires a player who is technically good as well as being a great 'spoiler'. They are expected to be at the start of moves now coming deep and collecting the ball from the defence. It's probably a new role called the Busquets role now with the likes of Alonso, Essien, Busquets and Mrowiec being the best at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Can Alonso really be counted as a holding midfielder? Or is it a position that is dying out at top level football? Is it now just a British novelty item? Alonso seems to suggest as much in a recent interview. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he says. "It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." Fuds that actually agree with that shite are killing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Toure Yaya sadly. Would he count as a holding player? Is he not just a ridiculously strong attacking midfielder? Surely De Jong is the holding player at City? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Fuds that actually agree with that shite are killing the game. What? Like Alonso, Xavi and Iniesta? Ruining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Would he count as a holding player? Is he not just a ridiculously strong attacking midfielder? Surely De Jong is the holding player at City? He was HR at Barca. Unbelievable player and probably the most under-rated CM in Europe. A joy to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Fuds that actually agree with that shite are killing the game. Aye Spanish players and their methods are killing the game. Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 What? Like Alonso, Xavi and Iniesta? Ruining it. Sorry I'm completely the opposite on this. Tackling is a quality. A very good one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppleTarts Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bastian Schweinsteiger anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Aye Spanish players and their methods are killing the game. Jesus Christ. Aye all one that's said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 He was HR at Barca. Unbelievable player and probably the most under-rated CM in Europe. A joy to watch. I think the way he plays at City might be more like his natural game. Barca got in Mascherano as an out and out holding player and promoted Buckets. I'm not sure he naturally fitted the role they wanted him to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Can Alonso really be counted as a holding midfielder? Or is it a position that is dying out at top level football? Is it now just a British novelty item? Alonso seems to suggest as much in a recent interview. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he says. "It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it." Interesting. A couple of points. His views mirror the difference in football philosophy between Spain and Britain. Emphasis in Spain placed more on pass & move, technical abilities, and vision. While in Britain it's a more simple 'get intae them' mentality. Also "tackling is a last resort" is a statement that reflects Xabi Alonso in defence: disciplined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Xabi Alonso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I think the way he plays at City might be more like his natural game. Barca got in Mascherano as an out and out holding player and promoted Buckets. I'm not sure he naturally fit the role they wanted him to play. He's probably more box-to-box than HR I suppose. His technical ability, finnishing and quick feet are phenomenal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House M.D. Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Interesting. A couple of points. His views mirror the difference in football philosophy between Spain and Britain. Emphasis in Spain placed more on pass & move, technical abilities, and vision. While in Britain it's a more simple 'get intae them' mentality. Also "tackling is a last resort" is a statement that reflects Xabi Alonso in defence: disciplined. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeno Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Seeger Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 The most under-rated player on the planet for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 'Nuff said. Busquets Genuinely despise him as a football player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Paul's Ray Bans Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 The most under-rated player on the planet for me. Good call. The change of position from the right of midfield to the centre did wonders for him imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 The most under-rated player on the planet for me. He's certainly up there on that list. But so is this chap: He put Messi in his pocket in the Copa America quarter-final, and always plays with the most extraordinary intensity and consistency. Without Egidio Arevalo Rios, his country - fourth best side in the world and reigning South American Champions - would be nowhere near as good: he's the cog without which the wheel would not turn. So quite what he's doing still plying his trade in the Mexican league, I have no clue. Best in the world, though? It might well be Toure tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 It is hard to tell how good he is in the current Arsenal side. He's quite good on the ball, but he is no Alonso. He's ok defensively, but he is no Essien. A good player, but I'm not sure he is world class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 What? Like Alonso, Xavi and Iniesta? Ruining it. No, but the poster has a point. Tackling not a quality? It just shows how the game is being ruined and turned into basketball. Go near Xavi, Iniesta etc... and they get a foul....you can`t fart next to them or they`ll get a free kick. Part of the art of football is riding tackles , like tackling is an art to try and win the ball..... No mater what the "modern" fan thinks, some games are boring to watch now, even between some of the top sides. Simply because no one really tackles. It`s all too stand offish now... You could say its tactics to win( to sit off and mark space instead of a man), and i agree with that to extent as its about winning, but on the otherhand a part of me says i want to see players having a go at eachother and seeing a right good game. Its one thing i respect England for in their game against Spain recently. They tackled hard and within the rules and the wee men in the middle for Spain didn`t like it one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon Wilson Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 De Jong Unsung hero and War Machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Hate "holding midfielder" "defensive mid" tags...... But i would say a midfielder who`s starting position is in front of the defence but can still get forward and score goals would be my choice. Alonso would certainly be up there way ahead of many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboSWH Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 With no one players currently defining the "Mak?l?l?" role at the moment, who, in your opinion, is the best holding player in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboSWH Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Scotty Parker is playing in that type of role just now for spurs and is superb in there. Can also step up and play a bit if your chasing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 No, but the poster has a point. Tackling not a quality? It just shows how the game is being ruined and turned into basketball. Go near Xavi, Iniesta etc... and they get a foul....you can`t fart next to them or they`ll get a free kick. Part of the art of football is riding tackles , like tackling is an art to try and win the ball..... No mater what the "modern" fan thinks, some games are boring to watch now, even between some of the top sides. Simply because no one really tackles. It`s all too stand offish now... You could say its tactics to win( to sit off and mark space instead of a man), and i agree with that to extent as its about winning, but on the otherhand a part of me says i want to see players having a go at eachother and seeing a right good game. Its one thing i respect England for in their game against Spain recently. They tackled hard and within the rules and the wee men in the middle for Spain didn`t like it one bit. I like tackling as well, hence the interest in holding players. I think to accuse the likes of Alonso of killing the game is ridiculous though. As for Spain not liking it up'em, I seem to remember the Dutch attempting this strategy and failing. I think England would have found it much harder had it been a competitive match and their opponents had not swapped keepers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon Wilson Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Scotty Parker is playing in that type of role just now for spurs and is superb in there. Can also step up and play a bit if your chasing the game. Good call, forgot about Scotty P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Good call, forgot about Scotty P He's made a huge difference to Spurs, but I think De Jong was a better shout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Got to agree with the majority that the "holding role" is much more than being a stopper, its almost become a postion that starts everything off, Xavi and Alonso are 2 of the best no doubt however someone who has been outstanding the past 2 seasons and is very under rated is Lucas at Liverpool, outstanding this season and a shame he picked up such a serious injury! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo corker Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't get this spannish teams are better than British teams thing. Apart from barca, who lets face it invented a new way of playing the game, what other spannish team has done anything of late in the champions league? The EPL is far superior to la liga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bastian Schweinsteiger anyone? The most under-rated player on the planet for me. this he IMO would walk into any side in the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't get this spannish teams are better than British teams thing. Apart from barca, who lets face it invented a new way of playing the game, what other spannish team has done anything of late in the champions league? The EPL is far superior to la liga Real are currently beating Barca in the league, so you could hardly suggest that Spain is a one team nation. Conversely, the English teams have all struggled to win their groups for the first time in many years. The demise of Valencia has weakened their league as a whole, but I don't think anyone could argue that Barca and real are both better than any English side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I don't get this spannish teams are better than British teams thing. Apart from barca, who lets face it invented a new way of playing the game, what other spannish team has done anything of late in the champions league? The EPL is far superior to la liga Bollocks it is. English clubs were readmitted to European competition in 1990, and to the European Cup in 1991. Since that time, how many English sides have won the CL? Three. This compares with two from Germany, one from France, one from Portugal, one from the Netherlands, five from Italy... and seven from Spain. Meanwhile, also in that time, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona and - in terms of the final - even Porto, have all won the event in grand, dominant manner. Yet every one of England's three winners scrambled through the final in dramatic, heartstopping, often fortuitous fashion. Why? Technical problems: even amongst England's very best sides, even with so many foreign players. The English club game continues to be played in a way which is too often shown up in continental competition - and while there was a time, circa 2007/8, when thanks to finishing in the top 4 over and over again, four English clubs appeared to have drawn away from everyone else in Europe, that period is long since passed now. This season, Manchester City have bestrode the EPL like a colossus - yet in the CL, look what happened. Look at the difficulties which Manchester United - in an extremely weak group - and Chelsea have had too. The leading English clubs are back in the pack now: behind Real and Barca who are together at the top, then a gap to Bayern Munich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bollocks it is. Your outrage making you channel Yoda, Shaun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armadale Jambo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bollocks it is. English clubs were readmitted to European competition in 1990, and to the European Cup in 1991. Since that time, how many English sides have won the CL? Three. This compares with two from Germany, one from France, one from Portugal, one from the Netherlands, five from Italy... and seven from Spain. Meanwhile, also in that time, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona and - in terms of the final - even Porto, have all won the event in grand, dominant manner. Yet every one of England's three winners scrambled through the final in dramatic, heartstopping, often fortuitous fashion. Why? Technical problems: even amongst England's very best sides, even with so many foreign players. The English club game continues to be played in a way which is too often shown up in continental competition - and while there was a time, circa 2007/8, when thanks to finishing in the top 4 over and over again, four English clubs appeared to have drawn away from everyone else in Europe, that period is long since passed now. This season, Manchester City have bestrode the EPL like a colossus - yet in the CL, look what happened. Look at the difficulties which Manchester United - in an extremely weak group - and Chelsea have had too. The leading English clubs are back in the pack now: behind Real and Barca who are together at the top, then a gap to Bayern Munich. I think I've got a hard on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Bollocks it is. English clubs were readmitted to European competition in 1990, and to the European Cup in 1991. Since that time, how many English sides have won the CL? Three. This compares with two from Germany, one from France, one from Portugal, one from the Netherlands, five from Italy... and seven from Spain. Meanwhile, also in that time, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona and - in terms of the final - even Porto, have all won the event in grand, dominant manner. Yet every one of England's three winners scrambled through the final in dramatic, heartstopping, often fortuitous fashion. Why? Technical problems: even amongst England's very best sides, even with so many foreign players. The English club game continues to be played in a way which is too often shown up in continental competition - and while there was a time, circa 2007/8, when thanks to finishing in the top 4 over and over again, four English clubs appeared to have drawn away from everyone else in Europe, that period is long since passed now. This season, Manchester City have bestrode the EPL like a colossus - yet in the CL, look what happened. Look at the difficulties which Manchester United - in an extremely weak group - and Chelsea have had too. The leading English clubs are back in the pack now: behind Real and Barca who are together at the top, then a gap to Bayern Munich. Yeah but on their day, Man City play football of a passion, dynamism and technique which no other side from Europe can match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Yeah but on their day, Man City play football of a passion, dynamism and technique which no other side from Europe can match. You could say the same about a number of European clubs. Especially Barca and Real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky_26 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 You could say the same about a number of European clubs. Especially Barca and Real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armadale Jambo Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 You could say the same about a number of European clubs. Especially Barca and Real. Exactly, man city were lucky as feck against Liverpool. They'll be found out in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMc Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I like tackling as well, hence the interest in holding players. I think to accuse the likes of Alonso of killing the game is ridiculous though. As for Spain not liking it up'em, I seem to remember the Dutch attempting this strategy and failing. I think England would have found it much harder had it been a competitive match and their opponents had not swapped keepers. The Dutch were out of order. Totally different approach and they put themselves out their own stride because they concentrated so much on disrupting Spain. England didn`t go over the top, just physical enough to put Spain off their stride a bit. Got close and went in strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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