Fans Ownership

[downunder jambo]

Even though I now live in Australia I would happily contribute to help save my beloved Hearts. I don't know what the exact numbers would be but I'm sure there would be plenty more fans scattered around the World who would be prepared to contribute as well. Add in a few businersses who may be prepared to pay a bit more as well (maybe for some free advertising or something) then maybe the numbers could be greater than some people might think!

Its worth investigating anyway!

[Sheriff Fatman]

80% of people responding to the poll have agreed to make a commitment.

 

I also agree Rich fans & companies can make additional payments if they wish. In fact I believe they will do. The plan however is not dependant on this.

 

What I am suggesting is something that many other clubs in different countries have already achieved.....

 

That is just over 100 people then, good luck getting the other 14900.

[Kramer]

OK what do you think we need to make ownership viable?

 

By the way, ?240.00 is a Fiver a week for a year (based upon ?20.00 a month) Dont you think YOUR club is worth a Fish Supper a week?

 

?240 on top of their season ticket price is a lot of money no matter how you try to break it down. A lot of people just wouldn't be willing to pay that for their football club.

 

I would only contribute the money if it was to be used as a very final option to save the club in the event that no other owner or consortium could be found. The idea of going for fan ownership regardless of the circumstances doesn't appeal to me.

 

I also don't think that as many fans as you think are worried about the future of the club at the moment and it'll take a bigger incident than late wages to drive people to subscribe to this.

[gowestjambo]

Where are you getting the 15k figure out of interest?

 

Our hardcore support is 10k absolute max and you'd probably have to half that number when you are asking folk to contribute 20 quid a month on top of what is already an expensive hobby.

 

Apart from all that, I genuinely do not want Hearts fans to have any say in how the club is run.

 

Interesting opinion, I take it you are satisfied with the current situation?

 

I have based 15,000 on our average home support. I could have as easily taken the 40,000 who attend finals and semi finals as people who wish to see our club be run properly.

 

As an expensive hobby, are you really suggesting a Season ticket of ?350.00 per annum to watch your team is expensive?

 

Would you not pay double to see your team beat rangers and celtic on a regular basis?

[gowestjambo]

Even though I now live in Australia I would happily contribute to help save my beloved Hearts. I don't know what the exact numbers would be but I'm sure there would be plenty more fans scattered around the World who would be prepared to contribute as well. Add in a few businersses who may be prepared to pay a bit more as well (maybe for some free advertising or something) then maybe the numbers could be greater than some people might think!

Its worth investigating anyway!

 

Thanks for your positive contribution - it surprises me how many fans would not want to be a part of the Football club that dominates their lives!

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Interesting opinion, I take it you are satisfied with the current situation?

 

I have based 15,000 on our average home support. I could have as easily taken the 40,000 who attend finals and semi finals as people who wish to see our club be run properly.

 

As an expensive hobby, are you really suggesting a Season ticket of ?350.00 per annum to watch your team is expensive?

 

Would you not pay double to see your team beat rangers and celtic on a regular basis?

 

15,000 isn't our average home support though. You'll be lucky to get that many Hearts fans in for an Old Firm game.

 

Yes it is an expensive hobby. People who are willing to contribute to this will probably be the ones that go week in week out so you're talking another ?200 a month all in for away games on top of your season ticket.

 

I admire your optimism and good luck to you but you only have to look back to Save Our Hearts to see how committed the majority of the Hearts support are.

[gowestjambo]

That is just over 100 people then, good luck getting the other 14900.

 

Its not a bad start for a couple of hours, at this rate we will have 15,000 in less than two weeks.........

[Sterling Archer]

I voted for all the options because I could :greggy:

[Mysterion]

OK what do you think we need to make ownership viable?

 

By the way, ?240.00 is a Fiver a week for a year (based upon ?20.00 a month) Dont you think YOUR club is worth a Fish Supper a week?

 

Look - I don't doubt your commitment, I don't doubt there's people who have they money, but I think without making all season ticket holder "have to" do something then it will not work. The negative of that is you limit the amount you can collect a year.

 

Go through my previous posts - there's one in the "the only real alternative" thread - i've put my proposal In there.

 

As far as money goes - I distil funding down to 2 stages:

 

1. An up to ?50 a year membership that ST holder pay.

2. An additional ?1 per ticket charge for walk up sales.

 

The monies from that are ring fenced.

 

I said in my post that the club needs to enable this type of idea to make it work and it will take a long long time. At least 20years.

 

The major obstacle that anything like this needs to resolve is the debt - it has to be separated away from the club so it can balance the books. There has to be a condition imposed that prevents debts accumulating again.

 

I'm more than happy for you to PM me to discuss your ideas etc. the key point I want to get across - its not about the price of a fish supper each week - its the cost per year. I think many people view that once the ST is paid that's plenty. The 240 a year figure is a big chunk of a season ticket as it is.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Its not a bad start for a couple of hours, at this rate we will have 15,000 in less than two weeks.........

 

Nope, you won't. Mainly because 15000 Hearts fans don't regularly read Kickback, and the ones that do are a minority. If you want it to work you will have to do hell of a lot more than post a vague idea on a message board.

[gowestjambo]

15,000 isn't our average home support though. You'll be lucky to get that many Hearts fans in for an Old Firm game.

 

Yes it is an expensive hobby. People who are willing to contribute to this will probably be the ones that go week in week out so you're talking another ?200 a month all in for away games on top of your season ticket.

 

I admire your optimism and good luck to you but you only have to look back to Save Our Hearts to see how committed the majority of the Hearts support are.

 

I agree that there appears to be some fans who are apathetic about the idea, We will never achieve our goal with people who are less than 100% committed to our team not just surviving - but actually prospering.

 

As I said earlier I dont know about the save our hearts campaign. And if it all fails - what do we have to lose?

 

Surely a Win , Win situation for everyone?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I agree that there appears to be some fans who are apathetic about the idea, We will never achieve our goal with people who are less than 100% committed to our team not just surviving - but actually prospering.

 

As I said earlier I dont know about the save our hearts campaign. And if it all fails - what do we have to lose?

 

Surely a Win , Win situation for everyone?

 

I don't understand how you have never heard of the SOH campaign?

 

Pieman? Marches through Gorgie? Weekly protests?!

[Sheriff Fatman]

I agree that there appears to be some fans who are apathetic about the idea, We will never achieve our goal with people who are less than 100% committed to our team not just surviving - but actually prospering.

 

As I said earlier I dont know about the save our hearts campaign. And if it all fails - what do we have to lose?

 

Surely a Win , Win situation for everyone?

 

Save Our Hearts had a sustained campaign over a long period, at a time when we were about to definitely lose our stadium and probably go out of existence, and I don't think they managed to raise ?1 million (and that included a couple of fairly large gifts). Nothing you have come up with using figures pulled up out of thin air makes me think that you would be able to even raise that much.

[Mysterion]

Just another point - Gowest - whilst your ?5 a week suggestion doesn't seem like much you are also optimistically looking for season ticket holders to effectively increase their basic footballing costs by at least 80%

 

This is another reason I think your idea will not work at its current costs....

[edin1874]

Well there is no point in me DRAGON you back in if that is what you think.....

 

I love HMFC but in my opinion the best thing for us is for it all to collapse.

[gowestjambo]

Look - I don't doubt your commitment, I don't doubt there's people who have they money, but I think without making all season ticket holder "have to" do something then it will not work. The negative of that is you limit the amount you can collect a year.

 

Go through my previous posts - there's one in the "the only real alternative" thread - i've put my proposal In there.

 

As far as money goes - I distil funding down to 2 stages:

 

1. An up to ?50 a year membership that ST holder pay.

2. An additional ?1 per ticket charge for walk up sales.

 

The monies from that are ring fenced.

 

I said in my post that the club needs to enable this type of idea to make it work and it will take a long long time. At least 20years.

 

The major obstacle that anything like this needs to resolve is the debt - it has to be separated away from the club so it can balance the books. There has to be a condition imposed that prevents debts accumulating again.

 

I'm more than happy for you to PM me to discuss your ideas etc. the key point I want to get across - its not about the price of a fish supper each week - its the cost per year. I think many people view that once the ST is paid that's plenty. The 240 a year figure is a big chunk of a season ticket as it is.

 

 

No one is going to buy the club with a 30/35 million debt - not a rich Arab, Rich businessman - or us!

 

Every day that passes Heart of Midlothian PLC is losing money. If you owned a business that was a loss making business who would you expect to buy it?

 

The only real alternative is the customers of that business!

 

The basis of the plan is what other trusts have - the club has to live within its means, just like any other business.

 

Whatever the club generates with Season tickets, Hospitality, Player transfers etc is what they have to balance the books,

 

 

The Trusts money is to purchase the club from the present owners initially. Once that has been achieved money can be invested in other areas.

 

Time scales are not the issue it does not matter how long it takes to ensure the club ends up in the fans ownership!

[Kramer]

I love HMFC but in my opinion the best thing for us is for it all to collapse.

 

Why?

[The Comedian]

It's an interesting idea but doomed to failure. The numbers just won't get involved.

 

Best leave this on a messageboard although I admire the principle and will to get involved.

[Ryan Gosling]

The Clique should run Hearts.

[gowestjambo]

Nope, you won't. Mainly because 15000 Hearts fans don't regularly read Kickback, and the ones that do are a minority. If you want it to work you will have to do hell of a lot more than post a vague idea on a message board.

 

I never for one moment thought the plan was based upon a few fanatics who read/post on Kickback - indeed we may not represent other fans views at all!

 

Still we have to start somewhere, and it may be a vague idea at the moment - but do you want to miss out on a new start just because it has small beginnings?

 

Oaks and Acorns after all.........

[Sheriff Fatman]

No one is going to buy the club with a 30/35 million debt - not a rich Arab, Rich businessman - or us!

 

Every day that passes Heart of Midlothian PLC is losing money. If you owned a business that was a loss making business who would you expect to buy it?

 

The only real alternative is the customers of that business!

 

The basis of the plan is what other trusts have - the club has to live within its means, just like any other business.

 

Whatever the club generates with Season tickets, Hospitality, Player transfers etc is what they have to balance the books,

 

 

The Trusts money is to purchase the club from the present owners initially. Once that has been achieved money can be invested in other areas.

 

Time scales are not the issue it does not matter how long it takes to ensure the club ends up in the fans ownership!

 

Customers of a business are the worst people to run it.

[gowestjambo]

It's an interesting idea but doomed to failure. The numbers just won't get involved.

 

Best leave this on a messageboard although I admire the principle and will to get involved.

 

Are you prepared to admit failure without even trying?

 

Seems a bit like the Hearts Team bus when they reach Harthill on their way to Ibrox or Parkhead....

[edin1874]

Why?

 

Starting from scratch is the best option for us, and Scottish football, IMO.

 

The whole thing is so inbred and disgusting right now that nobody wants anything to change. Forced change is the way forward.

[Kramer]

The Clique should run Hearts.

 

I always assumed The Clique sat on the UBIG board.

 

This was reinforced by your early announcement of our current managers appointment.

[Martin_T]

Are you prepared to admit failure without even trying?

 

Seems a bit like the Hearts Team bus when they reach Harthill on their way to Ibrox or Parkhead....

 

If you are serious about this chief, my advice is simple.... Don't pontificate about it and wait for interest, get it started, get a website set up and start soliciting contributors. Ideally you should look for it to be independently administered.

[The Gasman]

You've never heard of HOMST...?

 

You've never heard of Save Our Hearts...?

 

You think we have an average of 15,000 Hearts fans at home games...?

 

You think season ticket holders would / could / should pay ?700 for an ST...?

 

Are you from Guilford...?

[gowestjambo]

Customers of a business are the worst people to run it.

 

So the people who know what they want are not qualified?

 

I take it you are not aware of how Barcelona are run?

 

If you have nothing to offer other than criticism, can you please get us an Arab Billionaire?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

You've never heard of HOMST...?

 

You've never heard of Save Our Hearts...?

 

You think we have an average of 15,000 Hearts fans at home games...?

 

You think season ticket holders would / could / should pay ?700 for an ST...?

 

Are you from Guilford...?

 

Something not quite right here.

 

Honestly can't get my head around a Hearts fan having never heard of SOH. And he joined the board in 06 so it's not like he's only just started supporting the club.

[gowestjambo]

If you are serious about this chief, my advice is simple.... Don't pontificate about it and wait for interest, get it started, get a website set up and start soliciting contributors. Ideally you should look for it to be independently administered.

 

Thanks for your advice - I intend to do just as you say.

 

Regarding soliciting contributions, I will be speaking to Supporters Direct to organise an independent body to administer the money.

[Sheriff Fatman]

So the people who know what they want are not qualified?

 

I take it you are not aware of how Barcelona are run?

 

If you have nothing to offer other than criticism, can you please get us an Arab Billionaire?

 

The money that Barcelona get from their version of what you suggest is a very small part of their overall income. Oh and they have debts of over 400 million euros. The 170,000 socios don't seen to be doing that good a job when it comes to living within their means.

[gowestjambo]

Something not quite right here.

 

Honestly can't get my head around a Hearts fan having never heard of SOH. And he joined the board in 06 so it's not like he's only just started supporting the club.

 

1963 is the exact year.

 

Maybe SOH never got my attention, what is the relevance of that to what is being proposed?

[Ryan Gosling]

I always assumed The Clique sat on the UBIG board.

 

This was reinforced by your early announcement of our current managers appointment.

 

UBIG sit on the Clique's board actually.

 

:greggy:

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

1963 is the exact year.

 

Maybe SOH never got my attention, what is the relevance of that to what is being proposed?

 

So a major period in Hearts history never got your attention? It was all over the press for months and months. If you had stepped foot in Gorgie you would have noticed it straight away.

 

Sorry mate but I'll not be investing ?3 million in you today.

 

I'm out.

[gowestjambo]

The money that Barcelona get from their version of what you suggest is a very small part of their overall income. Oh and they have debts of over 400 million euros. The 170,000 socios don't seen to be doing that good a job when it comes to living within their means.

 

OK I get the fact you are against the idea, you are entitled to your opinion. The club has to live within its means. the money proposed is to purchase the club from the present owners.

 

And to be cynical Barcelona would not be able to be in debt to that amount if the income from ALL sources was not financially secured including their members!

[Kramer]

Thanks for your advice - I intend to do just as you say.

 

Regarding soliciting contributions, I will be speaking to Supporters Direct to organise an independent body to administer the money.

 

How much do think you think the fans will have to raise to buy the club?

 

Do you have any evidence that Romanov wishes to sell the club or a stake in the club apart from speculation?

 

What will the money be used for if the fans can't reach an agreement to buy the club?

[Gregory House M.D.]

This is all going a bit Irvine Jambo for my liking.

 

There's no way a Jambo missed SOH.

[shaun.lawson]

So a major period in Hearts history never got your attention? It was all over the press for months and months. If you had stepped foot in Gorgie you would have noticed it straight away.

 

Sorry mate but I'll not be investing ?3 million in you today.

 

I'm out.

 

Must agree with AP. I find it very, very bizarre that any Hearts fan anywhere could've been unaware of SOH.

 

And I also agree with Mr Gosling's suggestion. The question is, out of Messrs Partridge and Begbie, who'd be Napoleon and who'd be Snowball?

[gowestjambo]

So a major period in Hearts history never got your attention? It was all over the press for months and months. If you had stepped foot in Gorgie you would have noticed it straight away.

 

Sorry mate but I'll not be investing ?3 million in you today.

 

I'm out.

 

I dont care less about whether you think you are a better supporter than me or not. If you wish to argue this point separately then I am up for the challange. This is NOT what the debate is about at all. And if you were not at Tynecastle on 24th April 1965 when we lost the League to Kilmarnock 0 - 2 then I suggest you dont actually bother.

 

I am not suggesting YOU invest in me at all, I am suggesting you invest in YOUR club, and if dont think thats a worthwhile cause then thats OK with me.

[gowestjambo]

Must agree with AP. I find it very, very bizarre that any Hearts fan anywhere could've been unaware of SOH.

 

And I also agree with Mr Gosling's suggestion. The question is, out of Messrs Partridge and Begbie, who'd be Napoleon and who'd be Snowball?

 

Not quite as bizarre that someone who never visits Tynecastle questions anyone.........

[gowestjambo]

How much do think you think the fans will have to raise to buy the club?

 

Do you have any evidence that Romanov wishes to sell the club or a stake in the club apart from speculation?

 

What will the money be used for if the fans can't reach an agreement to buy the club?

 

1 It all depends on what Romanov is prepared to sell the club for.

 

2 Apart from speculation, the club is losing Romanov loads of money every week.

 

3 The money will be returned if the plan fails to get off the ground,

[Kramer]

1 It all depends on what Romanov is prepared to sell the club for.

 

2 Apart from speculation, the club is losing Romanov loads of money every week.

 

3 The money will be returned if the plan fails to get off the ground,

 

So I'm assuming the proposed purchase of the club will be discussed with Romanov before any cash is collected in case he only wants ?15,000 and we can all just throw ?1 in.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I dont care less about whether you think you are a better supporter than me or not. If you wish to argue this point separately then I am up for the challange. This is NOT what the debate is about at all. And if you were not at Tynecastle on 24th April 1965 when we lost the League to Kilmarnock 0 - 2 then I suggest you dont actually bother.

 

I am not suggesting YOU invest in me at all, I am suggesting you invest in YOUR club, and if dont think thats a worthwhile cause then thats OK with me.

 

I'm not suggesting I'm a better supporter than anyone.

 

You are pushing to get some support for this wee idea so you have to accept people are going to question your credentials so don't get arsey about it. I mean this in the nicest possible way but folk are going to think you are a bit of a chancer if you don't even know what happened to the club 6/7 years ago.

 

Did you expect everyone just to accept the woeful stats you are pulling out of thin air and back you even though you clearly haven't done any research on SOH which is the closest scenario in recent times to the idea you are proposing?

 

Fair enough bud. Just keep saying it works at Barcelona, one of the biggest clubs on the planet, and you should be fine.

[Gregory House M.D.]

I'm not suggesting I'm a better supporter than anyone.

 

You are pushing to get some support for this wee idea so you have to accept people are going to question your credentials so don't get arsey about it. I mean this in the nicest possible way but folk are going to think you are a bit of a chancer if you don't even know what happened to the club 6/7 years ago.

 

Did you expect everyone just to accept the woeful stats you are pulling out of thin air and back you even though you clearly haven't done any research on SOH which is the closest scenario in recent times to the idea you are proposing?

 

Fair enough bud. Just keep saying it works at Barcelona, one of the biggest clubs on the planet, and you should be fine.

 

Exactly and it doesn't really work there either.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8797183.stm

 

In july 2010 Barca reported a ?64.36m loss and debts of ?369.5m.

 

It all looks rosy on the pitch but they're financially messed off it. The value of the clubs falling again as well.

[Radioactive Mince]

I'd be more than happy to subscribe to a well-run Hearts to the minimum tune of one pound Sterling per day forever more. There is no danger I would notice ?30 a month.

 

However, idealism and realism rarely meet head-on. Something like this would be incredibly difficult to implement, but I wish the best of luck.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I'm not ticking anything in terms of contribution yet as I'd rather have firmer foundations as to the intent of the fund prior to any deal involving Vlad selling up.

 

I'm supportive of the principle though.

[Stanley_]

This thread is surreal.

 

I know it's been said already but I have no idea how a Hearts fan could not have heard of Save Our Hearts. Did you not go to any matches for a while? The whole plan to sell Tynecastle and move to Murray? The protests, marches etc?

[shaun.lawson]

I'm a bit torn between admiring the OP's bravery and optimism in suggesting this, and being amazed at his naivety in apparently not being prepared to be challenged on something which requires thousands of fans to pay for something which hasn't happened yet, and is probably pie in the sky. His divisive responses to such questioning, however understandable, aren't exactly helpful either.

 

It's all a bit chicken and egg if you ask me. People won't pay for something unless it's already up and running and working; but it can't get up and running and work until people pay for it. Personally though, while I think fan ownership can potentially/theoretically work at lower division clubs run on very limited budgets (but even in that example, the Ebbsfleet experiment has, please note, largely failed), I don't think there's any prospect of it succeeding at a club the size of Hearts.

 

Put simply, the money required year on year is just far too great.

[Radioactive Mince]

The club can easily compete on its current turnover. No "massive amounts of money" are required for ongoing operating costs. Just look at some of the shite in our league and their wage budgets. I certainly would not subscribe to spending 100-120% of turnover on playing staff wages. That sort of money would be far too great, isn't gonna let us challenge the duopoly and doesn't even guarantee us 3rd FFS.

 

Say, all out of contract players are released next summer and all 5k+ earners released in due course. IF the supporters stuck around, we would be much more viable right away. Maybe even... profitable?

 

Whether any supporter-led initiative could overthrow/strike a deal with VR, worries me infinitely more.

[Sydney from Sydney]

It's not impossible but still not the most practical solution. I voted to give more than 20 quid a month for say three years. I think others would too.

 

Maybe if Romanov knew the fans were buying the club he'd reduce the price a little and save a bit face himself.

 

A commitment to contribute for three years would be a start with a trust account or similar set up with a reputable bank, not necessarily the Vlad Bank, and as the money grows it might encourage more fans to donate.

 

Lots of negativity on here as usual, but set up properly it would show a willingness by the fans to see the club survive.

[RussAsia]

The main problem with these things is that people are not really willing to give their money to people that they don't know whether it is ultimately for Hearts or not..

 

The only way something like this could get off the ground is if a journalist took it upon himself to start something up.. Its a pity that the Scotsman has alienated the fans so much and nobody appears to have any time for Barry Anderson.. There are however a couple of people that work for decent papers that could possibly start up something along the lines of this and get themselves their own publicity..

 

Hearts could do something themselves.. Offer the fans memberships or something.. 200 quid for a gold membership, 100 quid for a silver and 50 quid for a bronze.. each would get different perks obviously.. either that or they could exchange it for shares or something along those lines..

 

The main problem with that though is that even if they vowed to use all the money to repay the debt our debt could still rise as we are making such huge losses.. For that instance they would be better to get the club self sufficient and making even a small profit every year therefore all the money received actually would be clearing our debt..