Fans Ownership

[Charlie-Brown]

With no offence to Gowest, I cant see how you knew nothing about the above in bold. Even if you werent pushing forward this idea (which i in parts support) I cant see how any Hearts fan missed SOH and the campaign. They kept Hearts at tynecastle and removed the pieman, that was there main goal and that was achieved. You should look into old articles and speak with the people who ran this for some ideas.

 

I think the only thing that may of failed with SOH was the aggressive approach that was taken (although I agree this was needed) I think it put alot of the family goers off in taking part in supporting the cause. Tho this was reported on every national paper, front and back pages, news chanels, a shop on gorgie road,

 

 

But back on topic of the idea:

Fan ownership will not in the short term work. A share scheme or shares for investment would be more acheivable, where if you had 1000 fans donating ?20 a month for a year you would have ?240,000, hearts may exchange that for 1% share, as the money increases the shares increase, the fans are then investing in the club and through time will own a fair share.

 

One thing that should be pushed is an elected member on the board, to start with a known face would be better for awareness. I think the idea in theory, and it can work on the right scale... A target of ?1m a year could be feasable with 4500 fans donating ?20 a month, and this I think should be the end of year 1 target

 

You are seriously suggesting the value of HMFC shares are worth ?24M for 100%? Really?

[MC_Trotski]

You are seriously suggesting the value of HMFC shares are worth ?24M for 100%? Really?

 

That's how much (at least) UBIG have paid for them.

 

Got to love Germany, Turkey etc being brought up as examples of how this scheme works elsewhere. When the laws of the land state that every club must have a certain %age of the club fan owned it's easy for it to work, as everyone is doing it and it's been done forever. Hearts fans trying to get this up and running, by buying a club that's in quite a lot of debt, is pure fantasy in the short term.

 

Again though, this is all just spitballing. If Chuck and Gowest think it's such a great idea then arrange a meeting for Hearts fans to go to and they can showcase their proposal. Should the fans in attendance like the idea then dialogue can be started with Vlad/UBIG to see what it would take to acquire the club and things can progress from there. Plucking figures out the air on a messageboard will do nothing.

[Wolfstar]

You are seriously suggesting the value of HMFC shares are worth ?24M for 100%? Really?

 

Depends how you split the club up. The name and history and players, the stadium asset, the debt.

 

If you want no debt, you go and offer vlad a ?1, or ?1m and see how much he laughs you out the office.

 

No hearts are not worth ?24m, but there is a debt owed to Vlad of ?30m (roughly) and an asset of ?10-15m (again roughly) so how much do you think vlad would give it all up for in exchange for the club and no debt.

 

And for the debt if vlad wants it to be a nil balance then it has to go somewhere... and noone I know has a spare ?30m to off-set the debt and no bank in the UK is going to take that on no matter how big the service fee is.

 

And if Vlad decides to keep the debt and stadium (may be his best chance of selling the club) how much would he want to service it... and then what if he ever calls it in or Ubig are in trouble, the stadium would be the first to be sold to start to off set this. This is the only way I can see fans 'owning' hearts, but around ?2m a year would be the service fee on a ?30m debt (and that is pretty realistic figures and not plucked out the air)

[Martin_T]

Depends how you split the club up. The name and history and players, the stadium asset, the debt.

 

If you want no debt, you go and offer vlad a ?1, or ?1m and see how much he laughs you out the office.

 

No hearts are not worth ?24m, but there is a debt owed to Vlad of ?30m (roughly) and an asset of ?10-15m (again roughly) so how much do you think vlad would give it all up for in exchange for the club and no debt.

 

And for the debt if vlad wants it to be a nil balance then it has to go somewhere... and noone I know has a spare ?30m to off-set the debt and no bank in the UK is going to take that on no matter how big the service fee is.

 

And if Vlad decides to keep the debt and stadium (may be his best chance of selling the club) how much would he want to service it... and then what if he ever calls it in or Ubig are in trouble, the stadium would be the first to be sold to start to off set this. This is the only way I can see fans 'owning' hearts, but around ?2m a year would be the service fee on a ?30m debt (and that is pretty realistic figures and not plucked out the air)

 

The debt is un-recoverable for UBIG. Even if they were to liquidate the club tomorrow they would barely cover 20% of the oustanding debt. They may seperate the club and the stadium, but given they are struggling to fund the club on an on-going basis, I reckon they would quite happily accept ?8 to ?10 million for the club, the stadium and the outstanding debt. I mean they have already lost the suggested equivalent of a years rental income for the stadium on Tuesday to HMRC!

 

The shares in HMFC as a business are worth absolutely nothing, irrespective of what UBIG have paid for them. The club is a loss making entity with debts far in excess of it's income and assets. In order for the club to be sold as a going concern UBIG are going to have take a massive haircut on the debt, that is a given.

[The Gasman]

You made quite a specific allegation, that I had "used made up facts". I ask you once again for you to provide an example.

 

Each time you have made claims/allegations about me, or what I have said, I have challenged you to provide specific example(s).

 

You have not given a single one.

 

F.A.O. GowestJambo

 

Will you give me an example of what you claim is true?

 

Or will you concede you just made up the accusation?

[gowestjambo]

F.A.O. GowestJambo

 

Will you give me an example of what you claim is true?

 

Or will you concede you just made up the accusation?

[/quote

 

]There's certainly a strange smell about it all, and like you, I wouldn't trust the OP.

This was your comment a number of days ago. You wouldn't trust me! This was your opinion based upon what?

I asked you for evidence I was untrustworthy - you have none, and more to the point there is none.

Dont get all high and mighty and full of indignation, after making an accusation without foundation.

[Sydney]

You know that the home and away end won't be sold out for every home game so these figures are pointless.

 

I doubt the home and away end will be completely sold out for any game this season.

 

No, but we could get 17,000 each game. We often did it only 5 years ago, we often did it in 97-98 and we often did it in 85-86.

 

If the "fans" dont care enough to turn up, buy some merchandise, a programme, some food etc, then we'll never get enough money together to actually buy Hearts. The reality is, 50,000 less tickets were bought for league games last season at Tynecastle than there were in 06-07. At 25 quid a go, that's 1.25 million pounds - add in another 10 pounds of "extras" at the match (food, programs etc), then there's another 500,000 pounds.

 

Forget TV money, in Scotland, and for a club like Hearts, our revenues come from people going to the matches. There's an appetite in Edinburgh for "big games" - Rangers, Celtic and Hibs bring us 20% bigger crowds than the rest of the dross, and European games (AEK, Sparta, Ferencvaros, Braga, Spurs, Barcelona, Osasuna) all bring in bigger crowds than we get for SPL matches.

 

There are two reasons why Hearts can get crowds of 16,000+ 1) We believe we are challenging to win the league 2) We are playing interesting teams.

 

If we think we have no chance of winning the league, and we're playing someone like St Mirren or Inverness, then we'll struggle to get more than 13,000 - and if the struggles continue we'll be abck down to crowds of 10,000.

[AyrJambo]

F.A.O. GowestJambo

 

Will you give me an example of what you claim is true?

 

Or will you concede you just made up the accusation?

 

]There's certainly a strange smell about it all, and like you, I wouldn't trust the OP.

This was your comment a number of days ago. You wouldn't trust me! This was your opinion based upon what?

I asked you for evidence I was untrustworthy - you have none, and more to the point there is none.

Dont get all high and mighty and full of indignation, after making an accusation without foundation.

 

 

The OP has a point and this thread should be bigger than point-scoring spats between individuals.

 

I know GoWestjambo, have travelled with him to many games and can tell you that he is what he says he is.... a Hearts supporter floating an idea on how fans might be able to exercise some control over the running of the club and team we ALL support.

 

I like many don't know if the idea is feasible, practical or achievable but I think it's certainly worthy of serious consideration among the wider Hearts support and throwing around unfounded accusations of "untrustworthiness" detracts from this in my view.

There's no other agenda here, the OP's views or lack of on HOMST or SoH are beside the point, the point being can we, as supporters, find a mechanism that let's us have some financial control/equity/ownership of the club?

[kingantti1874]

Whilst not convinced this would work at least it is an exploralw way forward - there won't be a white knight IMO... Something like this may be the only choice... UBIG will have to however forgive the majority of te debt... Can't see it

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Whilst not convinced this would work at least it is an exploralw way forward - there won't be a white knight IMO... Something like this may be the only choice... UBIG will have to however forgive the majority of te debt... Can't see it

 

Why not?

 

If they want to sell they have no other option. It's a buyer's market.

[Wolfstar]

Why not?

 

If they want to sell they have no other option. It's a buyer's market.

 

But then if they wipe out the debt, they wil be selling the name of HMFC and the assets (player and stadium) how much do you think this would be sold for? As a business it isnt really worth that much. As an asset to sell the land they can recoup ?10m+, so why wouldnt they just do that and to hell with the club. IF noone takes on or services the debt, I cant see them taking a ?30m loss when they can sell the land and at worse make a ?20m loss.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

But then if they wipe out the debt, they wil be selling the name of HMFC and the assets (player and stadium) how much do you think this would be sold for? As a business it isnt really worth that much. As an asset to sell the land they can recoup ?10m+, so why wouldnt they just do that and to hell with the club. IF noone takes on or services the debt, I cant see them taking a ?30m loss when they can sell the land and at worse make a ?20m loss.

 

 

It's the same difference however you look at it. Wipe out the debt and they are selling the asset value. Maintain the debt and they are selling a debt/equity package with a token purchase of ?1 and the debt purchased off them.

 

So in other words, somewhere between ?10-15M to buy the club lock, stock and barrel.

[Charlie-Brown]

It's the same difference however you look at it. Wipe out the debt and they are selling the asset value. Maintain the debt and they are selling a debt/equity package with a token purchase of ?1 and the debt purchased off them.

 

So in other words, somewhere between ?10-15M to buy the club lock, stock and barrel.

 

Tesco's interested in the land so they better be quick!

[Wolfstar]

Tesco's interested in the land so they better be quick!

 

Has this been reported? Or speculation from last time te land was going to be sold?

[Charlie-Brown]

Has this been reported? Or speculation from last time te land was going to be sold?

 

Not speculation nor reported anywhere yet but I believe their surveyors are looking at the overall Tynecastle & adjacent site today.

 

Tesco's look at literally dozens of sites or potential sites up and down the country every week for planning and feasibility.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Not speculation nor reported anywhere yet but I believe their surveyors are looking at the overall Tynecastle & adjacent site today.

 

Tesco's look at literally dozens of sites or potential sites up and down the country every week for planning and feasibility.

 

 

Where did this come from?

[Coco]

Where did this come from?

 

It is none sense.

 

[Charlie-Brown]

Where did this come from?

 

He was dropped of there this morning.

[MC_Trotski]

He was dropped of there this morning.

 

Non story, you even said so yourself.

 

Instead of talking about Tesco, should you and Gowest not be writing to Vlad asking how much he'd sell Hearts for to the trust? Now it's out he's selling surely the next step is find out how much he'd accept and then mobilise the fans to cough up the cash.

[gowestjambo]

Non story, you even said so yourself.

 

Instead of talking about Tesco, should you and Gowest not be writing to Vlad asking how much he'd sell Hearts for to the trust? Now it's out he's selling surely the next step is find out how much he'd accept and then mobilise the fans to cough up the cash.

 

 

Agree MC T, although it would be nice if Charlie and myself were offered a bit of help. There is a whole lot of hard work ahead.............

[deejtee]

Hard work of your own making. It will not work either. You will not get many people paying and what are you going to do with those that default..sue them??Best chance remains total collapse and a realistic owner or consortium with some dosh slowly rebuilding. I could afford to pay your ?20 a month quite comfortably but won't as it is daft. I would consider a single contribution to some group or person who lives in the real world rather than this fantasy board.

[Tommy Wiseau]

Hold on the now. ?3.6m. To run Hearts?

 

And 15,000 folk are going to put money into the club every month when they won't even get off their arse to watch the games?

 

Right you are.

[Radioactive Mince]

I'm not really replying to anyone in particular here (more a chain of thought) but ?20 per month, for example, is less than the average ticket price for an SPL match, of which there are maybe four per month during the season. Then you've got to add on things like travel to/fro, pies, bevvy etc. Before you know it you're looking at about ?200 per month for one person (if a moderate drinker/fat ***** ) to go to all HMFC games. Gawd help you if you're funding others' Hearts following.

 

So, it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because someone doesn't attend matches regularly, they wouldn't like to be a 'part' of the club in other ways.

 

I don't feel that gowest has done much to convince people here, but that's mainly due to personality differences rather than lack of a sound idea.

 

My hope is that, alongside any potential takeover of the club, the support could get something like this up and running to help clear the lingering debt to UKIO (& therefore help us remain competitive for European places) if nothing else. As a support, we revelled in the times of largesse and very few of us questioned the sense of the spending. Now that we are seemingly - inevitably - heading into Shit Street, it would be nice if we could all pull together in whatever form, to assist the club we all love in reaching an even keel.

 

If any new custodian could gain the trust of the majority of the support, something like this could be viable, but only if.

[deejtee]

So 15,000 people who don't go are going to be the people who give money anyway???? We all know that the product is overpriced but we pay to see it. If the team's performances nosedive with the wage bill being savaged there will be fewer people paying to watch let alone paying not to watch! Very few people will pay any money to this daft idea and some that do will be even dafter and expect a seat on the board! Fortunately they will be told to go and do one!