Charlie-Brown Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I agree mate. It`s actually worrying how backward thinking some of our fans are, in fact, quite alot. I don`t need to hear... "im being realistic"....or "we haven`t got the money"....i know all the feckin ins and outs but its the basic attitude of not wanting better, whether we have the money or not, riles me......... For my whole life to date supporting Hearts i`ve craved for us to be much better, to find ways of overcoming the big boys. Seems some are just happy toddling along in 3rd and really don`t have any desire to see their club become bigger... really, what is it with some people? "we haven`t got the money".... quite fundamental that isn't it? Look Iam not trying to be negative or dump on us but we've got a whole heap of major issues to sort out before we can realistically dream of a new stadium and convincing somebody to finance it with a justifiable business case. Staying the size we are might even be challenging enough for us to achieve in the coming years nevermind growing significantly our income streams & attendances etc. Unless we get another miracle benefactor to spare us the pain then some hard times are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalryJambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What is currently preventing these parents & kids selling out Tynecastle? parent + child prices are actually a very good deal by comparison. Look if building a new community stadium was such an obvious money spinner then there would be no problem getting private sector financing for such a lucrative venture and money spinning project. Why is there no apparent rush to invest or even build such a stadium? You need a regular tenant to make these projects viable and that's the hard bit to find, followed by suitable land. Things like hotels, conferencing, music venues, cinemas, bowling alleys, restaurants, pubs, shops can then be bolted on around the developments at minimal extra cost (compared to stadium/land costs) and can be rented out to companies in relevant industries and it becomes attractive to them as there is a predicted footfall of people in the area. These potential business become more viable with the guarantee of 20-25 football games a season, possibly 15-20 rugby games, 5-10 concerts, plus weekly conferences and the residents of a midsized hotel with a 70-80% occupancy. When you break it down the whole thing can be massively beneficial to the council/government in terms of employment/rates/Vat directly from the development itself and the adjoining area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Have you read any of the posts arguing for a new stadium? Increased revenue streams > More attractive investment > Ability to grow out of financial peril I absolutely agree with this but I just cannot see where the funding for this is ever going to come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Iam predicting in a few years time there will be another 500 CLUB type scheme for Hearts fans to contribute to refurbish the existing main stand at Tynecastle and make it safer or else to demolish it and put up a functional but relatively low cost replacement along the lines of the Wheatfield / Roseburn / Gorgie stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Iam predicting in a few years time there will be another 500 CLUB type scheme for Hearts fans to contribute to refurbish the existing main stand at Tynecastle and make it safer or else to demolish it and put up a functional but relatively low cost replacement along the lines of the Wheatfield / Roseburn / Gorgie stands. I am predicting that by then you will still be struggling to understand that we are unable to build a new stand on the existing site due to health and safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMac Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Iam predicting in a few years time there will be another 500 CLUB type scheme for Hearts fans to contribute to refurbish the existing main stand at Tynecastle and make it safer or else to demolish it and put up a functional but relatively low cost replacement along the lines of the Wheatfield / Roseburn / Gorgie stands. I'll put money in for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMac Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I am predicting that by then you will still be struggling to understand that we are unable to build a new stand on the existing site due to health and safety. Don't be stupid. health and safety is a political scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I am predicting that by then you will still be struggling to understand that we are unable to build a new stand on the existing site due to health and safety. If that's true then it's utter nonsense. It wouldn't be okay to build a new main stand but it's okay at the moment to sit in one where the ball makes a hole in the roof madness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I am predicting that by then you will still be struggling to understand that we are unable to build a new stand on the existing site due to health and safety. Incorrect - we are struggling to incease capacity by more than 3000 extra seats due to H&S issues & concerns but not to put up another stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Incorrect - we are struggling to incease capacity by more than 3000 extra seats due to H&S issues & concerns but not to put up another stand. This is the first that that particular figure has been mentioned. Even if that is the case, just increasing the ground by 3,000 isn't going to do anything commercially to help us build for the future. The facts are, we are limited in what we are able to do at Tynecastle. If, as you say, adding an extra 3,000 to capacity is all we can do to the existing Tynecastle, then that's not just not enough IMO, and quite clearly the powers that be think the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 This is the first that that particular figure has been mentioned. Even if that is the case, just increasing the ground by 3,000 isn't going to do anything commercially to help us build for the future. The facts are, we are limited in what we are able to do at Tynecastle. If, as you say, adding an extra 3,000 to capacity is all we can do to the existing Tynecastle, then that's not just not enough IMO, and quite clearly the powers that be think the same thing. Where exactly does this need to increase the capacity come from? Hibs did it - and just look at the result. What a wonderful half-empty stadium they have every week! Unless Hearts are seriously challenging for the league on a consistent basis , why make the ground bigger? I can understand wanting a better main stand, but I don't really see the need for a significantly larger stadium. A Tynecastle of 20,000 would do us fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Where exactly does this need to increase the capacity come from? Hibs did it - and just look at the result. What a wonderful half-empty stadium they have every week! Unless Hearts are seriously challenging for the league on a consistent basis, why make the ground bigger? I can understand wanting a better main stand, but I don't really see the need for a significantly larger stadium. A Tynecastle of 20,000 would do us fine. Are you just not reading the posts in favour of a new stadium? It's not just about capacity, it's about other sports and entertainment facilities, conference facilities, basically extras that will mean that we can generate more income on, We just can't do any of that at Tynecastle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Where exactly does this need to increase the capacity come from? Hibs did it - and just look at the result. What a wonderful half-empty stadium they have every week! Unless Hearts are seriously challenging for the league on a consistent basis , why make the ground bigger? I can understand wanting a better main stand, but I don't really see the need for a significantly larger stadium. A Tynecastle of 20,000 would do us fine. Have a read through this and stop living in the dark ages.... http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/6125/report_on_stadium_options_for_heart_of_midlothan_football_club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalryJambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 This is the first that that particular figure has been mentioned. Even if that is the case, just increasing the ground by 3,000 isn't going to do anything commercially to help us build for the future. The facts are, we are limited in what we are able to do at Tynecastle. If, as you say, adding an extra 3,000 to capacity is all we can do to the existing Tynecastle, then that's not just not enough IMO, and quite clearly the powers that be think the same thing. As far as I'm aware that's the crux of the matter. H&S/the council have suggested the maximum size for a new stand would be no more than 3000 more than what we currently have, making the cost per seat of the new stand un-feasibly high, whilst not allowing the club to realise the capacity potential it requires. Is it worth spending ?15-?20m on a 9000 seat stand when you could move location and spend ?30-?40m on a custom built arena with the potential of all the other facilities mentioned in my earlier post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Are you just not reading the posts in favour of a new stadium? It's not just about capacity, it's about other sports and entertainment facilities, conference facilities, basically extras that will mean that we can generate more income on, We just can't do any of that at Tynecastle. we could with a new main stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 we could with a new main stand Except we can't build a new main stand with these facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 Quick summary Tynecastle will be difficult/expensive to redevelop to anything more than what is already there. The current set-up is not sustainable. The club needs additional revenue-growing facilities, increased capacity is not a priority. There are many examples of community stadiums being built that are cost-neutral to the tenant clubs and council. This leaves the sale of Tynecastle to significantly reduce debt. Result: Third biggest club in Scotland with shiny new stadium offering increased revenue streams and a significantly reduced debt. Next: Sell the club, develop the club - whichever UBIG choose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc-jambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Question: How many football clubs in the UK have built three, new matching stands, in the past fifteen years, and then moved elsewhere to a purpose built stadium? Just asking, like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Have a read through this and stop living in the dark ages.... http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/6125/report_on_stadium_options_for_heart_of_midlothan_football_club I'm not even going to pretend that I can be bothered reading that entire report. Like I say, I can see the argument for needing a new, modern stand but can someone please explain why Tynecastle/ a new stadium would need to be any bigger than 20,000 in capacity? But hey, let's hope I'm wrong and I'll see you all at the league champions party in 2013-14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'm not even going to pretend that I can be bothered reading that entire report. Like I say, I can see the argument for needing a new, modern stand but can someone please explain why Tynecastle/ a new stadium would need to be any bigger than 20,000 in capacity? But hey, let's hope I'm wrong and I'll see you all at the league champions party in 2013-14 Im assuming your thinking your team will come straight back up after going down this season? Bit presumptuous no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Question: How many football clubs in the UK have built three, new matching stands, in the past fifteen years, and then moved elsewhere to a purpose built stadium? Just asking, like Question: Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Anyone that cannot see to move forward as a club we need to relocate to a modern facility is either a Hibs fan,WUM,or living in the 60`s. Thankfully it appears the majority can see the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Im assuming your thinking your team will come straight back up after going down this season? Bit presumptuous no? right, so because we don't agree on something that makes me a Hibby? classic Kickback logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 right, so because we don't agree on something that makes me a Hibby? classic Kickback logic No it is the only reason i can think of for your ignorance and complete lack of intellect with regards to HMFC moving to a new modern facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Not sure if this has already been mentioned, apologies if it has (or if somebody can shed some light on it) but how did the New Tynecastle High School get planning permission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc-jambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Anyone that cannot see to move forward as a club we need to relocate to a modern facility is either a Hibs fan,WUM,or living in the 60`s. Thankfully it appears the majority can see the light. What planet are you on, guvner? Have you noticed that there's a financial crisis? That the property market in Edinburgh has collapsed? That the City Council is bankrupt? All this stuff about new stadia is simply OVER, it is in the past. Not just for Hearts, but for everyone else in British football, too. The fact that Mr Romanov keeps going on about it is merely further evidence of his strained relationship with reality ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What planet are you on, guvner? Have you noticed that there's a financial crisis? That the property market in Edinburgh has collapsed? That the City Council is bankrupt? All this stuff about new stadia is simply OVER, it is in the past. Not just for Hearts, but for everyone else in British football, too. The fact that Mr Romanov keeps going on about it is merely further evidence of his strained relationship with reality ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Stinkfinger Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Lets simplify things. Plan 1 ..... Sell of the clubs assets and foreclose. Plan 2 ..... Move to another stadium. Its a tricky one ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 No it is the only reason i can think of for your ignorance and complete lack of intellect with regards to HMFC moving to a new modern facility. To put it simply, the way I see it - Tynecastle is great on 3/4 sides of the pitch. 75% of our stadium is fantastic. All we need to do is fix the remaining 25% and we're sorted. Yet everyone seems to want to build a whole new ground. I just refuse to believe that re-developing the main stand isn't a viable option. Call me stubborn or whatever you like - that's just my opinion. If we do end up moving, I hope the new ground's fantastic too. I hope it has great facilities, a good atmosphere and increases our revenue like you say it will. I just don't think it will be that simple, but as I said earlier, let's hope I'm left eating my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Lets simplify things. Plan 1 ..... Sell of the clubs assets and foreclose. Plan 2 ..... Move to another stadium. Its a tricky one ?? Plan 2 is achieved how exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 Plan 2 is achieved how exactly? Which part of cost-neutral development don't you understand? Or have you simply not read the whole thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Bishop Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Plan 2 is achieved how exactly? Surely if you are generally interested in a thread so much so as to make comment, then rwhy not read through it before commenting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Sorry, yes the council will pay, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalryJambo Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Sorry, yes the council will pay, my bad. FAIL. Some people must live a really sheltered life. Open your eyes a bit and see how the world works. I've not got time now but later today I'll broadly outline how this will be funded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Where exactly does this need to increase the capacity come from? Unless Hearts are seriously challenging for the league on a consistent basis , why make the ground bigger? BECAUSE no-one is going to provide Hearts with the quality team to challenge for the league (as VR did in 05-06) unless they can count on maximising the undoubted increased attendances that would bring. You've got it the wrong way round. (CB also suggested above we should wait till we sell out every week and have a huge waiting list for years and then think about increasing capacity - what a waste!!) We achieved crowds of 28k - 32k for our European games at Murrayfield - what's the point of having a 20k stadium? Hibs did it - and just look at the result. What a wonderful half-empty stadium they have every week! I'm sorry - are you comparing us with Hibs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 BECAUSE no-one is going to provide Hearts with the quality team to challenge for the league (as VR did in 05-06) unless they can count on maximising the undoubted increased attendances that would bring. You've got it the wrong way round. (CB also suggested above we should wait till we sell out every week and have a huge waiting list for years and then think about increasing capacity - what a waste!!) We achieved crowds of 28k - 32k for our European games at Murrayfield - what's the point of having a 20k stadium? I'm sorry - are you comparing us with Hibs?? You're right there, but remember that these were for one off games that don't come around very often. I would've imagined v Spurs we could've got a similar crowd. However, being realistic, Scottish football is dead. Nobody wants to spend ?20-?25 on a match ticket to watch SPL rubbish. That is why having a 25K+ seater stadium is going to be a bad idea, it will be half full! (unless we have another 05-06 season, but that won't happen unless VR or somebody else decides to go mad with money again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 FAIL. Some people must live a really sheltered life. Open your eyes a bit and see how the world works. I've not got time now but later today I'll broadly outline how this will be funded. Cannot wait to hear this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 FAIL. Some people must live a really sheltered life. Open your eyes a bit and see how the world works. I've not got time now but later today I'll broadly outline how this will be funded. Yes it will be funded by a triumvirate partnership of the tooth-fairy, santa claus & the easter bunny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 it will be half full! (unless we have another 05-06 season, but that won't happen unless VR or somebody else decides to go mad with money again). But that's exactly the point - VR (or whoever else) won't 'go mad' with money again unless there's some hope of fully exploiting the crowd potential - it just doesn't make sense. In 05-06 there were many many games that would have brought in well over 20,000. And you say the European games were one-offs - well obviously they weren't because there was a series of them - but the important thing was there was something at stake. That's all Hearts need in the SPL - to be in touch with the top. Vlad has now openly admitted that he can't go on spending millions unless there's a way to make it worthwhile, i.e. having a proper stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What Iam saying is unless they are very brave or foolhardy or the council then nobody will provide funding for a mid-sized stadium with 5K-10K more capacity than Tynecastle UNLESS they see a definite verifiable DEMAND for one ie Hearts selling out the current stadium and having waiting lists for several thousand more seats. To build one absent of any pent-up demand would be a very speculative and risky investment that I simply don't see getting funded anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Yes it will be funded by a triumvirate partnership of the tooth-fairy, santa claus & the easter bunny. If those three are convinced they could get a return on their investment, I don't see why they wouldn't go for it. (although i think Easter Road Bunny might be a hibby). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 You're right there, but remember that these were for one off games that don't come around very often. I would've imagined v Spurs we could've got a similar crowd. However, being realistic, Scottish football is dead. Nobody wants to spend ?20-?25 on a match ticket to watch SPL rubbish. That is why having a 25K+ seater stadium is going to be a bad idea, it will be half full! (unless we have another 05-06 season, but that won't happen unless VR or somebody else decides to go mad with money again). spot on. Having a 25,000 seater stadium is all well and good when we play Spurs, but what about when we're at home to St Mirren, playing 3 defensive midfielders and no one up front!? Where are we going to pluck 25,000 spectators from in that scenario? Get a winning team on the park first, then concentrate on the stadium - not the other way round (i.e. the Hibs way, because look how far having a nice big ground has gotten them! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 UNLESS they see a definite verifiable DEMAND for one ie Hearts selling out the current stadium and having waiting lists for several thousand more seats. Okay - that's the situation we had in 05-07, because VR put a certain amount of money into the team. If he now said to the council I will invest on that scale again IF you accept this plan for a larger stadium, would that count as a "verifiable demand"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 But that's exactly the point - VR (or whoever else) won't 'go mad' with money again unless there's some hope of fully exploiting the crowd potential - it just doesn't make sense. In 05-06 there were many many games that would have brought in well over 20,000. And you say the European games were one-offs - well obviously they weren't because there was a series of them - but the important thing was there was something at stake. That's all Hearts need in the SPL - to be in touch with the top. Vlad has now openly admitted that he can't go on spending millions unless there's a way to make it worthwhile, i.e. having a proper stadium. In 2005-6 the club would have needed to more than double the average attendance of 16.7k in order to fund the wage bill that it had at that time. Nearly 34k per game to make it work. Nobody is suggesting a stadium of that size and obviously we would not be able to fill it. That team wasn't good enough to win the title. Nor will a squad that an average attendance of c. 20k would provide when set against the enormous crowds at Rangers and Celtic. The idea that a new stadium - even assuming it is given to Hearts on a 'cost-neutral' basis - would allow the club to 'challenge' is not credible in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Surely the major (unspoken) issue here is that there are residents and a school within this "COMAH" area!! The appropriate response is to remove the dangers from this area! That's something I've been thinking about although not to any great detail and the following is clearly simplistic. If the storage of chemicals is the issue to allowing the club to build on the current stadium footprint (The ideal situation) then surely there is an engineering solution to move these tanks out the way while running the contents to the site say by underground pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackney Hearts Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 spot on. Having a 25,000 seater stadium is all well and good when we play Spurs, but what about when we're at home to St Mirren, playing 3 defensive midfielders and no one up front!? Where are we going to pluck 25,000 spectators from in that scenario? These sort of matches were selling out in 05-07. For the bigger matches we were losing out on a large amount of potential revenue. Get a winning team on the park first, then concentrate on the stadium - not the other way round In the past I might have agreed that team comes before everything - but if our owner isn't going to back the team while we have no scope for growth or increased income within our stadium, then ypu have to take that into the equation and realise that growing the stadium = growing the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikeDudley Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 That team wasn't good enough to win the title. oh no - now you've really gone and done it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wavydavy Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Completely agree on both statements. The blog puts the case for the council paying the money for a study brilliantly, and he also gives good reasons why Edinburgh needs to look again at its sporting infrastructure, simply ignoring it is just making things worse for longer. If it is done correctly, a new stadium and facility complex could be valuable to the economic benefit of Edinburgh (case in point, I was through in Glasgow on Saturday evening, coming off the train in the late afternoon it was obvious that quite a few people around the station were heading to a concert at the SECC, Efinburgh lacks something like the SECC and thus misses out on the benefit of so many bands who in turn bring in extra people to the city through hotels or even just local businesses such as restaurants etc. As well as major events such as the MOBO awards which brings international attention and creates a different kind of appeal to tourists to the city.) As for the Evening News, it has been appalling. It is desperate to protray some pro-Hearts, anti-Hibs bias in the council and almost force the councilors from allowing anything to be done on this issue by making them afraid they will be labelled as biased towards Hearts. Most of its reports are just better then guess work. What can you possibly expect from a Council such as ours who have wasted millions of pounds on a tram system that will be absolutely no use to about 99.9% of the Edinburgh population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What can you possibly expect from a Council such as ours who have wasted millions of pounds on a tram system that will be absolutely no use to about 99.9% of the Edinburgh population. Correct, the Council are a disaster with ?1.3bn in debt already (Council tax c. ?200m pa), at least ?300m+ to spend on the tram line, operating losses on the tram line to pay for, statutory notice compensation to pay etc. etc. They have squandered money for years and years. A total shambles with people like this Anderson character completely out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 So because Edinburgh has a shit council, we should forget about the development of Hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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