Are you proud of Britain and its history

[Malinga the Swinga]

Given the debate on the James MacLean thread and the other one on the 'boat' issue, I was interested in finding out who is proud of Britain's military history and who is apologetic about it.

 

Me, I am proud of Britain and its military history. From the First World War, the second war 30 years later, through to the troubles in Ireland ending in the Afghan/Iraqi adventures, I reckon we can be proud of the way our forces conduct themselves in the most difficult of places and situations.

 

Unlike others, I have no doubt that the British military is something we should make a big deal out of, and something we should celebrate. Remembrance weekend is a different beast and that is, as the name says, a time to remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Other occasions such as Armed Forces Day should be used to pay tribute to those who are still going out to this day to help protect the vulnerable and desperate around the world. I have no time for those who spend their time hand wringing and feigning concern for the greater humanity.

 

Forget politicians who try and make benefit out of these guys, the soldiers, navy and army personnel are a shining example of what makes this United Kingdom great.

[Der Kaiser]

IBTL

[William H. Bonney]

I'm neither proud nor disappointed. It's not something I think about or discuss to be honest.

[Placid Casual]

This is getting ridiculous.

[Clonlara Erin]

No.

 

I despise the people I once lived with.

 

I'll provide better for my children than subject them to that.

[Cade]

[scott_jambo]

In the main, no.

 

Maybe the wrong time to start a thread like this during rememberance though?

[Norm]

They've done shitty things, they've done good things. I don't feel pride and I'm not apologetic as I've got nothing to do with the military. How can I feel pride about something that has nowt to do with me?

 

That's pretty my much my thinking.

[2NaFish]

What a shite question. Honestly, what simplistic reductionist waffle as an attempt to justify latent frustration. As if the history of britain can be summed up as good or bad. These aren't concepts that can effectively be applied in this situation.

 

And i'd consider myself a soft utilitarian, but can say that the very premise is codswallop.

[Gorgiewave]

In 1918, History came to a .

 

This was, obviously, a much Better Thing.

[scott_jambo]

What a shite question. Honestly, what simplistic reductionist waffle as an attempt to justify latent frustration. As if the history of britain can be summed up as good or bad. These aren't concepts that can effectively be applied in this situation.

 

And i'd consider myself a soft utilitarian, but can say that the very premise is codswallop.

 

Conveniently apparently British history begins in WW1. More likely due to the state curriculum than any purposeful ignorance.

[JamboX2]

Should the thread title not be are you happy with the British Military over the past century rather than 'Britain and it's history'.

 

The latter is a story of people, events and dramatic power transfers in society over a century and the expansion of civil, political and social rights to all British peoples in a century. That is to be celebrated.

 

The former, and the OPs post, to me is more about how Britain has managed it's military decline from the 2:1 power ratio in the pre-1914 world to it's small, highly professional armed forces of today which can only really act with it's allies in multinational missions. Which to me is just a realignment of the world we live in and brings me no satisfaction or pride in comparison to how I feel about Britain.

[2NaFish]

Let's do pros and cons

 

Pro - Beat hitler and the baddies.

Con - Jimmy Saville

 

Pro - Henry VIII was a top shagger.

Con - Killed his wives when they couldn't keep up.

 

Pro - Abolition of slavery

Con - Slavery

 

Pro - Invented the internet

Con - I was used for shite like this

 

Pro - The films of Alfred Hitchcock

Con - The remakes of the films of Alfred Hitchcock. 'cept throw momma from the train. A classic.

 

So there we have it. It's a tie. Britain is morally neutral unless someone can come up with something else.

[Creepy Lurker]

What a shite question. Honestly, what simplistic reductionist waffle as an attempt to justify latent frustration. As if the history of britain can be summed up as good or bad. These aren't concepts that can effectively be applied in this situation.

 

And i'd consider myself a soft utilitarian, but can say that the very premise is codswallop.

Conveniently apparently British history begins in WW1. More likely due to the state curriculum than any purposeful ignorance.

 

These posts pretty much sum up what I was going to say here. The idea that the history of an entire nation can be neatly classified as 'good' or 'bad' is idiotic, and it's easy to feel pride in something if you only know about/choose to pay attention to its good bits.

 

All that I could really add is that I've always found the idea of patriotism a bit weird. I don't take any great pride in being Scottish or British and don't understand how anyone could take pride in a 'national culture' which would be the same anyway regardless of their actions and how they feel about it.

 

The OP, in my opinion, is a perfect example of someone brainwashed by the state orchestrated propaganda machine of which 'supporting our troops' is such a key part. As an aside the only other time I can remember having seen him post was in a thread about Jeremy Clarkson, of whom he is a fan.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Conveniently apparently British history begins in WW1. More likely due to the state curriculum than any purposeful ignorance.

 

Dunno. I was taught about William Wallace, Culloden and the 45 rebellion, the industrial revolution, the political and social changes between 1815 and 1928, the American civil war and the Russian revolutionary period of 1880 to 1922 along side the First World War at high school between 1st and 6th year.

 

Scottish schools, and tbh English ones, used to offer a broad based historical curriculum. Sadly, changes to the Scottish and English school curriculums have been narrowed by jingoistic governments over the past 10 years.

[Chester™]

Dunno. I was taught about William Wallace, Culloden and the 45 rebellion, the industrial revolution, the political and social changes between 1815 and 1928, the American civil war and the Russian revolutionary period of 1880 to 1922 along side the First World War at high school between 1st and 6th year.

 

 

 

I started secondary in the Early 90's. I was taught none of that in any history class and nor did my friends who took it until 6th year, the American Civil War/Revolution apart.

[Gorgiewave]

Let's do pros and cons

 

Pro - Beat hitler and the baddies.

Con - Jimmy Saville

 

Pro - Henry VIII was a top shagger.

Con - Killed his wives when they couldn't keep up.

 

Pro - Abolition of slavery

Con - Slavery

 

Pro - Invented the internet

Con - I was used for shite like this

 

Pro - The films of Alfred Hitchcock

Con - The remakes of the films of Alfred Hitchcock. 'cept throw momma from the train. A classic.

 

So there we have it. It's a tie. Britain is morally neutral unless someone can come up with something else.

 

Britain has only lost one war (to America in 1776).

[Creepy Lurker]

I get the feeling that Scott may have been referring more to the OP's complete failure to mention anything to do with colonialist atrocities perpetrated by the British. It's something I noticed myself but didn't want to mention explicitly because, as 2na has stated, the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous and I didn't want to say anything which made it look like I was taking a side in what's basically a stupid discussion.

[scott_jambo]

Dunno. I was taught about William Wallace, Culloden and the 45 rebellion, the industrial revolution, the political and social changes between 1815 and 1928, the American civil war and the Russian revolutionary period of 1880 to 1922 along side the First World War at high school between 1st and 6th year.

 

Scottish schools, and tbh English ones, used to offer a broad based historical curriculum. Sadly, changes to the Scottish and English school curriculums have been narrowed by jingoistic governments over the past 10 years.

 

What's glossed over is how the British Empire slaughtered half of the worlds indigenous peoples briefly touch on slavery usually in a more American context. e,g, Roots/Kunta Kinte.

 

The realities of the what the British Empire has done is all a bit of a "Ooh, that's a bit awkward" and leave it alone.

 

Also the servile acceptance of the ruling classes and the aristocracy from a domestic perspective is dissapointing.

[TheMaganator]

Yes. I am proud of my country.

 

It must be shite not to be.

 

Sure, we've got some stuff wrong but all in all we built the modern world and have been a beacon of good and light in the world.

[scott_jambo]

I get the feeling that Scott may have been referring more to the OP's complete failure to mention anything to do with colonialist atrocities perpetrated by the British. It's something I noticed myself but didn't want to mention explicitly because, as 2na has stated, the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous and I didn't want to say anything which made it look like I was taking a side in what's basically a stupid discussion.

 

Indeed.

[scott_jambo]

Yes. I am proud of my country.

 

It must be shite not to be.

 

Sure, we've got some stuff wrong but all in all we built the modern world and have been a beacon of good and light in the world.

 

[Gorgiewave]

I'd rather live in Britain than any of about 185 other countries in the world.

[2NaFish]

Britain has only lost one war (to America in 1776).

 

It's strange because in some cases wars don't have winners. There are certainly a fair few wars where britain didnt win. But it's still an impressive record - although in context, it runs from 1707 and covers the period where britain had the largest empire ever, with the last 100 years featuring little traditional aggressive war mongering and more unilateral action and 'peacekeeping'.

 

If you wanted to you could call the american revolutionary war a civil war as it was british colonials fighting a mix of colonials and native brits, and strike it off as a loss. It's only subsequent history that tells us that these people were Americans (in a political rather than merely geographical sense)

[Gorgiewave]

It's strange because in some cases wars don't have winners. There are certainly a fair few wars where britain didnt win. But it's still an impressive record - although in context, it runs from 1707 and covers the period where britain had the largest empire ever, with the last 100 years featuring little traditional aggressive war mongering and more unilateral action and 'peacekeeping'.

 

If you wanted to you could call the american revolutionary war a civil war as it was british colonials fighting a mix of colonials and native brits, and strike it off as a loss. It's only subsequent history that tells us that these people were Americans (in a political rather than merely geographical sense)

 

I, at least, wasn't being serious.

[JamboX2]

 

 

What's glossed over is how the British Empire slaughtered half of the worlds indigenous peoples briefly touch on slavery usually in a more American context. e,g, Roots/Kunta Kinte.

 

The realities of the what the British Empire has done is all a bit of a "Ooh, that's a bit awkward" and leave it alone.

 

Also the servile acceptance of the ruling classes and the aristocracy from a domestic perspective is dissapointing.

 

That's not a sin unique to us.

 

Read into the French Empire, Russian Empire, Chinese Empire, German Empire, Belgian colonies, Dutch Empire, Italian Empire, American manifest destiny, Japanese rule in Korea and so on. All empires do bad. What I'll give the British Empire was that it was no where near as bloody as some of the others.

 

As for your servile servitude issue, the British ruling class in a historical perspective has been one of the most flexible of elites. Revolution never happened because of it. Our rebellions were things like Jacobites and rivals for the role of monarchy. Not defending the aristocracy but few nations had the progressive expansion of democracy and civil rights that the UK had.

 

There's god awful things we've done. But on a balance in comparison to others we're no worse than any other culture or people.

[scott_jambo]

I'd rather live in Britain than any of about 185 other countries in the world.

 

Location: Madrid.

 

[2NaFish]

I, at least, wasn't being serious.

 

I studied history; for us, claiming that the american revolutionary war was a victory for the brits is quite the humdinger of a gag.

[scott_jambo]

That's not a sin unique to us.

 

Read into the French Empire, Russian Empire, Chinese Empire, German Empire, Belgian colonies, Dutch Empire, Italian Empire, American manifest destiny, Japanese rule in Korea and so on. All empires do bad. What I'll give the British Empire was that it was no where near as bloody as some of the others.

 

As for your servile servitude issue, the British ruling class in a historical perspective has been one of the most flexible of elites. Revolution never happened because of it. Our rebellions were things like Jacobites and rivals for the role of monarchy. Not defending the aristocracy but few nations had the progressive expansion of democracy and civil rights that the UK had.

 

There's god awful things we've done. But on a balance in comparison to others we're no worse than any other culture or people.

 

I completely disagree with every point you've made tbh. But I don't think we will be able to change each others minds on that.

 

Just to add, I don't think I suggest the Brits are the worst ever to walk the earth, however the OP asked if I was specifically proud of Britain since it's inception and the question seemed framed in a military context. So broadly the answer is still a no from me.

[JamboX2]

 

 

I started secondary in the Early 90's. I was taught none of that in any history class and nor did my friends who took it until 6th year, the American Civil War/Revolution apart.

 

Was at school in the early 2000s and we got a broad base of history.

[2NaFish]

Revolution never happened because of it.

 

Glorious Revolution.

[Clonlara Erin]

 

 

Sure, we've got some stuff wrong but all in all we built the modern world and have been a beacon of good and light in the world.

 

[Rocco_Jambo]

Brilliant we should all be very proud.

[TheMaganator]

[JamboX2]

 

 

Glorious Revolution.

 

Yeh... A coup d'etat to remove the Catholic Stuarts to replace them with the protestant Sister and her Dutch husband... Not quite a Robespierre or a Lenin job haha.

[JamboX2]

I've decided to chip in on this, not sure why as know how will go.

 

I'm neither proud or ashamed of britians past in history. Whether it be the empire and slavery and or fighting against nazi's.

 

I didn't contribute so no right to feel proud or otherwise.

 

I admire those and respect those who fought. Whether these wars were right or wrong in many ways irrelevant. We don't always get to choose what is right or wrong as strange as that sounds.

 

IMHO war is in not something to be celebrated. Irrespective or victory or defeat there are no winners and losers.

 

Pretty much sums up my opinions.

[Gorgiewave]

Location: Madrid.

 

 

Do the arithmetic, Scott.

[JamboX2]

 

 

I completely disagree with every point you've made tbh. But I don't think we will be able to change each others minds on that.

 

Just to add, I don't think I suggest the Brits are the worst ever to walk the earth, however the OP asked if I was specifically proud of Britain since it's inception and the question seemed framed in a military context. So broadly the answer is still a no from me.

 

In a military perspective it's a case of historic decline over a century. Going back to the birth of the UK in 1707 it's still a case of war is war and no one comes out smelling of roses.

 

I don't get how you can disagree with the history of flexible government and expansions in civil and political rights from the 1830s on. If anything our times the betrayers of any good as we've stalled, arrested and reversed gains made up to the 1980s by adopting consumerism and individualism over common good and community.

[scott_jambo]

Do the arithmetic, Scott.

 

But you hate Spain too.

[2NaFish]

Yeh... A coup d'etat to remove the Catholic Stuarts to replace them with the protestant Sister and her Dutch husband... Not quite a Robespierre or a Lenin job haha.

 

Nope, but a revolution that was borne out of an inflexible and trouble making nobility.But your larger point is absolutely true; for students of revolt, either popular or baronial, Britain is utterly sanguine.

 

Historiographically, it's interesting to note how highly 'Bad' King John was viewed by victorian historians. The story runs that because he hamstrung richard by handing over continental lands to france he led to his death, which resulted in more lossed. This led to the king of england spending time in england for the first time since King Harald, this led to conflict and this led to magna carta and, eventual, the british empire. As such King John was great to them, a view we as a people no longer hold; mostly because he was a poor king. King Stephen, the victorians tell us, was a poor king because he was an anomaly and didn't play a part in reaching the apogee that was the Victorians, whilst many modern viewers say he did a great job considering the situation.

 

Anyway. All this goes to show yet another reason why terms such as good and bad are a nonsense in this context.

[Gorgiewave]

But you hate Spain too.

 

See the independence thread. Was No and am No.

[scott_jambo]

See the independence thread. Was No and am No.

 

Did I miss an independence joke? [modedit]

[Sharpie]

I am of the generation that was still taught about the magniicence of the British Empire,how we the British were superior to everyone else and should be proud of it and we were. As age and technology have progressed we as British do have a lot that we should take pride in. Engineers, authors, medical researchers etc. Equally we have much to be ashamed of, we colonised Africa and done the groundwork that left it the Third World Continent it seems to be now. In the WW1 we betrayed badly people in the Middle East who had provided much needed assistance.

 

As far as the military is concerned, yes they were the arm and muscle of politicians. In the days of Empire they were not the elite of even the working class who served, they operated under officers who had bought their rank, and were the epitomy of a feeling of superiority especially to those who did not look like them. Am I proud of the British military I certainly am, am I proud to have served, absolutely.

[Restonbabe]

I get the feeling that Scott may have been referring more to the OP's complete failure to mention anything to do with colonialist atrocities perpetrated by the British. It's something I noticed myself but didn't want to mention explicitly because, as 2na has stated, the whole premise of this thread is ridiculous and I didn't want to say anything which made it look like I was taking a side in what's basically a stupid discussion.

 

Wow this is something i agree with you on! The question i got from the thread header was are you proud of Britain and its history. Not military but just historically then yes I am, I am immensely proud of what this small island on the very edges of the arctic has done globally since its formation good or bad. Our history globally is that of an island dominance and sucess. still to this day I am proud to say geographically I am from britain.

[Mister T]

Let's do pros and cons

 

Pro - Beat hitler and the baddies.

Con - Jimmy Saville

 

Pro - Henry VIII was a top shagger.

Con - Killed his wives when they couldn't keep up.

 

Pro - Abolition of slavery

Con - Slavery

 

Pro - Invented the internet

Con - I was used for shite like this

 

Pro - The films of Alfred Hitchcock

Con - The remakes of the films of Alfred Hitchcock. 'cept throw momma from the train. A classic.

 

So there we have it. It's a tie. Britain is morally neutral unless someone can come up with something else.

Pro: Hearts

Con: Hibs

 

I think my pro is actually a pro+ so the scales have been tipped.

[pablo]

Will we just gloss over surrendering to the **** in 1942?

[pablo]

Eh? I just put the shortened name for Japanese.

[pablo]

 

I would hazard a guess the word you used is classed as derogatory. As in the same scenario for Pakistanis and Chinese mate.

 

No offence intended. I genuinely thought it was the same as shortening British to Brits. You live and learn.

[Paolo]

In the main, yes. Though there are some questionable moments.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Sure, we've got some stuff wrong but all in all we built the modern world and have been a beacon of good and light in the world.

 

This is the same as the 'City on the Hill' and "Greatest nation in the history of the world" bullshit that Americans are subjected to. It isn't a healthy belief, and closes down legitimate criticisms of ideology, policy, and conduct.