Windfarms shut by too much wind

[jamb0_1874]

THIRTEEN windfarms had to close during the gales ? because there was TOO MUCH wind.

National Grid boffins said vast turbines were generating more electricity than the system could cope with as the remnants of Hurricane Katia hit the country.

 

Some 650 megawatts of capacity was shut off ? including the giant Black Law farm near Forth, Lanarkshire ? enough to power a town the size of Paisley.

 

Now the National Grid must PAY the wind farm operators almost ?2million for disconnecting ? higher than the going rate for the actual power. The cost is passed onto households through energy bills. A Grid spokesman said: "If there's too much wind at a time of low demand we must balance the system.

 

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3812742/Windfarms-shut-by-too-much-wind.html

Another example of how these turbines wont work properly until we canfind some way of storing the electricity they generate.

 

[Bigsmak]

Another example of how these turbines wont work properly until we canfind some way of storing the electricity they generate.

 

 

 

Storing and transporting.

 

The national grid is sooooo inefficient and at the moment and there is no real way to store electricity efficiently.. Batteries are not great.

 

I know there are a lot of experiments with super cooled conductors but nothing commercial at present. But these are years off.

[redm]

I love it when the Sun decides to try and write about something that isn't either football, showbiz or a shock story.

 

They also don't seem to be able to decide whether or not they agree that wind energy works. I'm sure the last story I read from them was whinging about the 'questionable efficiency' of turbines, and now they're effectively moaning because they're too efficient? Righto.

 

National Grid needs to sort out upgrading the system. Once that happens, everyone will be in a position to honour the power purchase agreements which bind the operators just as much as it does the grid when things like this happen. It's not an ideal way to work, I don't think anyone would disagree with that....

 

Good to see The Sun getting interested in renewables though....ahem....

[2NaFish]

given the used the word 'boffins' in the the opening sentence means i'm going to discount anything they have to say about science.

[Vlad-Stupid]

?1m payouts are pretty frequent for these windfarms to shut down. The infrastructure just isn't in place and probably wont be for a very long time

[jamb0_1874]

?1m payouts are pretty frequent for these windfarms to shut down. The infrastructure just isn't in place and probably wont be for a very long time

 

 

Sounds a bit back to front to me. It would be like a house builder building some new homes in the middle of a field and then having to building the roads, pavements etc around them.

 

 

[redm]

?1m payouts are pretty frequent for these windfarms to shut down. The infrastructure just isn't in place and probably wont be for a very long time

 

Sounds a bit back to front to me. It would be like a house builder building some new homes in the middle of a field and then having to building the roads, pavements etc around them.

 

 

I don't know the precise details about the infrastructure upgrades but I do know that major improvements are scheduled in for around 2013/2014. Not just Beauly-Denny related stuff either. There's a lot happening around that time anyway.

 

And ?1m payments aren't all that frequent at all by the way. Only ever happens in pretty extreme weather conditions. The grid might not be all that flexible but it does tend to cope with most standard forecasted fluctuations etc.

[P-Dizzle]

It's political correctness gone mad.

[Captain Sausage]

Storage of energy is such a complex subject that it will take years to get a proper 'battery' which can hold the huge 'charge' they are talking about.

[Sooperstar]

Sounds a bit back to front to me. It would be like a house builder building some new homes in the middle of a field and then having to building the roads, pavements etc around them.

 

Housebuilders do regularly have to make payments to councils for infrastructure or build the infrastructure themselves.

[Boomstick]

I'm currently in strathy in the northern highlands promoting a public consultation for a farm.

 

The weather's moved north. It's horrible up here and I have a cold.

 

The locals seem quite into it.

[jamb0_1874]

Housebuilders do regularly have to make payments to councils for infrastructure or build the infrastructure themselves.

 

Are you saying the windfarm owners should be doing the same, and/or are they doing that already?

[redm]

Are you saying the windfarm owners should be doing the same, and/or are they doing that already?

 

Wind farm developers already do this. Grid connections are very expensive.

 

They also pay planning gain contributions.

[trotter]

One of the major problems with wind turbines is that they can only operate within a narrow band of windspeed. Too little and the blades won't turnh, too much and the generator can get damaged.

 

There IS no way to store electricity, same way as you can't store heat either. Thermodynamically, the storage of either is way too inefficient on a large scale. Batteries work (sort of) in small scale but thats it.

 

What needs to be done is to hook up the grid to more pumped storage schemes. These are hydroelectric plants that use excess power from the grid when demand is low (i.e. overnight) to pump water back up the hill. Then when demand is high (7am, 12pm, 5pm typically) you open the gates and let the water back down through the dam. In effect, by changing the electrical energy from the grid into potential energy in the water you turn the reservoir into a battery. Simples. If only the government would actually take notice of what engineers say for once...

 

graeme

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

One of the major problems with wind turbines is that they can only operate within a narrow band of windspeed. Too little and the blades won't turnh, too much and the generator can get damaged.

 

There IS no way to store electricity, same way as you can't store heat either. Thermodynamically, the storage of either is way too inefficient on a large scale. Batteries work (sort of) in small scale but thats it.

 

What needs to be done is to hook up the grid to more pumped storage schemes. These are hydroelectric plants that use excess power from the grid when demand is low (i.e. overnight) to pump water back up the hill. Then when demand is high (7am, 12pm, 5pm typically) you open the gates and let the water back down through the dam. In effect, by changing the electrical energy from the grid into potential energy in the water you turn the reservoir into a battery. Simples. If only the government would actually take notice of what engineers say for once...

 

graeme

 

Some engineer you?

 

[Jam Tarts 1874]

Wouldn't have happended in my day.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Windfarms are a sensational idea and don't even look as bad as people make out... Get a grip eh? we need more power and it would be best to try and get it from sources that do not **** the environment even more than we are doing so already.

 

[trotter]

Some engineer you?

 

 

har har, i should've seen that coming

 

i meant in large quantities like grid electricity. but my points still stands, the insulation in that thermos is only so effective, how long would it keep the contents usefully 'hot' for? By usefully I mean hot enough to do useful work with later (in this example, hot enough to enjoy a drink)

[2NaFish]

thermos' are great. the keep hot things hot and cold things cold. I stuck some coffee and and ice-cream in once though, didnt work.

[redm]

One of the major problems with wind turbines is that they can only operate within a narrow band of windspeed. Too little and the blades won't turnh, too much and the generator can get damaged.

 

There IS no way to store electricity, same way as you can't store heat either. Thermodynamically, the storage of either is way too inefficient on a large scale. Batteries work (sort of) in small scale but thats it.

 

What needs to be done is to hook up the grid to more pumped storage schemes. These are hydroelectric plants that use excess power from the grid when demand is low (i.e. overnight) to pump water back up the hill. Then when demand is high (7am, 12pm, 5pm typically) you open the gates and let the water back down through the dam. In effect, by changing the electrical energy from the grid into potential energy in the water you turn the reservoir into a battery. Simples. If only the government would actually take notice of what engineers say for once...

 

graeme

 

 

If you take every possible windspeed ever recorded in the world then yes, it probably would be considered narrow. But in terms of the average windspeeds likely in locations suitable for wind farms, it isn't a narrow band at all. It's actually a wide spectrum. There needs to be some wind for them to work - that's the best way to describe it and probably won't come as a shock to anyone - but they can run effectively until the winds become pretty extreme in terms of the kind of speeds we expect here in the UK.

 

For example, for a decent site in Scotland you'd be looking at average wind speeds of around 8-10m/s (ideally 12) and if you consider the most popular sort of size/rating for commercial turbines at the moment you're basically looking at models which can cope with anything up to around 25m/s without needing to cut out. The winds we've had over the last few days were around 18m/s to put it in context. Letting them run at those higher wind speeds for prolonged periods of time obviously has potential wear, tear and damage repercussions but that doesn't really ever happen enough for it to be a real concern and the turbines are chosen for the spec which most closely suits the environment in which they'll operate anyway.

 

Not my most scintillating chat right enough, but all true nonetheless.

 

 

 

[I.J]

Broken Britain, imo.

[jamboinglasgow]

I don't know the precise details about the infrastructure upgrades but I do know that major improvements are scheduled in for around 2013/2014. Not just Beauly-Denny related stuff either. There's a lot happening around that time anyway.

 

And ?1m payments aren't all that frequent at all by the way. Only ever happens in pretty extreme weather conditions. The grid might not be all that flexible but it does tend to cope with most standard forecasted fluctuations etc.

 

The national grid announced yesterday that they were offering bonds for small investors which would be linked at a rate above inflation for the length of the bond. So they are obviously require a large amount of capital for investment into the grid. Did like the financial expert on 5live talking about it yesterday, saying that this investment is pretty low risk as if the Grid defaulted on these bonds then there would be much bigger things to worry about then getting your money back.

[Boomstick]

Having a fish tea in helensburgh now.

 

Frozen.

[Sooperstar]

Having a fish tea in helensburgh now.

 

Frozen.

 

Condiments?

[redm]

Having a fish tea in helensburgh now.

 

Frozen.

 

I was in Peterhead/Ellon/Newburgh sort of area 2 weeks ago and it was absolutely freezing.

Think we had a maximum temperature of about 8 degrees. Crazy. Was still August (just) then too.

 

Get your thermals out, Boom.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Are windfarms ant worse looking than big rusty metal angels? Or chimneys with fires? I don't get the eyesore argument at all... Most of the landscapes they are built on are pretty bleak looking at best anyway.

[trotter]

Are windfarms ant worse looking than big rusty metal angels? Or chimneys with fires? I don't get the eyesore argument at all... Most of the landscapes they are built on are pretty bleak looking at best anyway.

 

I don't mind them tbh. However I will say that for some reason or another, standing right next to them deeply unsettles me (as does cooling towers, radio masts, etc). I think it's got something to do with the sheer size of them up close makes them seem rather alien in our environment.

 

Another issue that people seem to have is that they make a lot of noise? I can honestly say they're either a) lying, or i'm deaf as i've never heard anything excessive when i've been in their vicinity.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Trotter,

 

Nae arguments on that one from me mate. I am a complete height Jessie, my fear of heights is so bad that actually standing at the foot of a tall structure and looking up to the top of it makes me dizzy! True fact that, I am creeped out by heights.

[Sergio Garcia]

THIRTEEN windfarms had to close during the gales ? because there was TOO MUCH wind.

National Grid boffins said vast turbines were generating more electricity than the system could cope with as the remnants of Hurricane Katia hit the country.

 

Some 650 megawatts of capacity was shut off ? including the giant Black Law farm near Forth, Lanarkshire ? enough to power a town the size of Paisley.

 

Now the National Grid must PAY the wind farm operators almost ?2million for disconnecting ? higher than the going rate for the actual power. The cost is passed onto households through energy bills. A Grid spokesman said: "If there's too much wind at a time of low demand we must balance the system.

 

http://www.thescotti...-much-wind.html

Another example of how these turbines wont work properly until we canfind some way of storing the electricity they generate.

 

 

Boom, I love it went the Forth gets mentioned in the news, always a pleasing day!

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

More emphasis should be placed on solar, wave and tide energy. Much more efficient atm imo.

[redm]

More emphasis should be placed on solar, wave and tide energy. Much more efficient atm imo.

 

Really?

 

Wave and tidal are still pretty much in research and development stage and won't be rolled out in a fully commercial sense for a while yet. They're not much more efficient atm at all. Offshore wind is though.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Really?

 

Wave and tidal are still pretty much in research and development stage and won't be rolled out in a fully commercial sense for a while yet. They're not much more efficient atm at all. Offshore wind is though.

 

As a concept, they are more efficient I feel.

True, as you say they aren't all commercially viable yet. So more emphasis is needed in the development of it.

Currently the Scottish Government is trying to do this.

See this article if anyone is interested:- Marine Energy in Scotland

[Chris Benoit]

Having a fish tea in helensburgh now.

 

Frozen.

 

 

Might taste better if you get it cooked first

[shaun.lawson]

Might taste better if you get it cooked first

 

 

Incidentally - in terms of the theory at least, I'm largely with Lionel Richie on this. I suspect that, ultimately, tide and wave energy will prove much more effective and efficient in the long run: though I'm sceptical about the merits of solar power, and always have been tbh.

 

But it's also apparent that some on this thread have a practical knowledge of wind power which is infinitely greater than mine; so I shall therefore defer to their judgement on this.

[redm]

@Lionel Maybe they will be in future, yes...but we need energy production now and in the interim period. That's why we need to rely on existing and tested technologies. No doubting Scotland has considerable potential in marine energy though. Just need to sort out that tiny matter of the Crown Estate/ownership boundaries etc first and then we'll be quids in

[Currahee!]

Nuclear is the way to go.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

@Lionel Maybe they will be in future, yes...but we need energy production now and in the interim period. That's why we need to rely on existing and tested technologies. No doubting Scotland has considerable potential in marine energy though. Just need to sort out that tiny matter of the Crown Estate/ownership boundaries etc first and then we'll be quids in

 

I agree with everything you said there redm.

Hopefully they'll source the farms off-shore, I'm one for unblemished views o'er oor fair bonnie hills.

 

But aye, Scotland the 'Saudi Arabia' of marine energy

[Das Root]

Having a fish tea in helensburgh now.

 

Frozen.

 

 

And I thought Tetley tasted bad

[H2]

Winfarms have something in common with Edinburgh Trams - They have always been a waste of money.

[Devorgilla]

Never seems to be much, if any, mention of reducing energy demand by improving building insulation. Time we moved on from offers of loft insulation and cavity wall filling to addressing "harder to treat" older properties. And for new build to have scandinavian standards.

 

Cheers,

 

Devorgila

[Boomstick]

I lied.

 

I was nowhere near Helensburgh.

 

I was in Helmsdale.

 

I know this isn't the thread for me griping about things I do for money but Jesus Christ, why do people in the northern highlands not have postboxes at the end of their drive?

 

I think I'm sick from running about in the hurricane which helpfully landed on us today and I have a 0733 train from, the relatively southern, Beauly tomorrow morning as I'm working at my real job tomorrow night.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I'm quite impressed with those Snake things that work in tidal waters. Hydro will become huge, more so than solar - especially in this country, but at the moment it's not ready.

 

Scotland is the windiest country in Europe. Scotland should have many wind farms.

 

Incidentally, the farm I was doing work for will sit between two other farms and will be practically out of sight to everyone in the area. These small communities receive great benefits from having a windfarm on their doorstep - ask any of the many groups around the Kilbraur Wind Farm who received more than ?30,000 from the wind farm Community Benefit Trust this year. Groups that would never have been able to afford some of the things they bought without having a wind farm so close to them.

 

You'll still get morons who just like to moan though. One guy I was speaking to was working himself into a rant that he didn't want to see wind farms all over the place before I casually observed that the farm I was talking about wouldn't be in sight from his house and anyway, I could see Dounreay Power Station from his back garden...which has a wind farm behind it too!

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

boomstick = likes wind

[Boomstick]

boomstick = likes wind

 

Loves it.

 

k?

[trotter]

Really?

 

Wave and tidal are still pretty much in research and development stage and won't be rolled out in a fully commercial sense for a while yet. They're not much more efficient atm at all. Offshore wind is though.

 

theoretically yes, i've said it before on here and i'll say it again...there's enough power available in offshore wind to power the UK about a thousand times over. The problems are the practicalities of doing so:

 

1) The towers need to be massive (assuming they are going in the North Sea which is on average 50-100m deep) then you also need to pile them into the bedrock.

 

2) There's not that many ships available that can actually install them (although granted there is some being built now)

 

3) To make a decent dent in our fossil fuel consumption you would need THOUSANDS of turbines (see 2) above)

 

4) To avoid noising up the locals, and to make best use of available wind, they need to be installed miles off the coast. There are numerous problems with running high voltage cables that distance under water (the loss of current as heat to the water being the major one)

 

5) There is also the carbon cost of building the things in the first place. You need a lot of steel for fabrication, and then a lot of fossil fuels burned to carry them about to the various construction yards