Falling Attendances

[Eckauskas]

Seeing lots of gaps in the stands at most of the games on Match Of The Day and have been for a few seasons now. I remember in the not-to-distant past, you wouldn't see any empty seats at all at places like Ewood Park, Villa Park, Maine Road or Anfield. This was even as recently as 5 years ago, so it can't have been through the television age, as a lot of Premiership games were shown on telly anyway.

 

Then, up here, you have Motherwell, Dunfermline, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and, obviously, Hibs, who haven't seen a sellout in 10 years at least. And have Caley Thistle ever had a complete sellout for a game? We're quite lucky, as we have a large enough fanbase that means we'll be pulling in crowds of 13,000 a week, despite being poor to watch.

 

So, why do clubs not realise that the unrealistic prices they're setting for games up here and down south isn't doing them any favours? ?21 for Inverness v Hearts is an utterly ludicrous price for the kind of product on offer. And the likes of cheap days don't make any difference. Unless your team plays good football and really grabs the kids attentions on the day, you're not encouraging them to keep coming back, are you?

 

It's all about grabbing the new generations hearts, which you won't do if you're pricing people out of the market.

 

So, aside from the obvious making prices more realistic to match the level on offer, has anyone any ideas what can be done to stop the slump?

[benny]

Stopped going to away days up here due to stupid prices.Only went to one last season,at Pittodrie,boring nil nil draw.The main reason i went was for the social side.Hearts performances away from home do not help as well.Apart from season 2005/06 we have been boring to watch from Leveins team until the present day away from home..

[Eckauskas]

Stopped going to away days up here due to stupid prices.Only went to one last season,at Pittodrie,boring nil nil draw.The main reason i went was for the social side.Hearts performances away from home do not help as well.Apart from season 2005/06 we have been boring to watch from Leveins team until the present day away from home..

 

It's not just us though.

 

I see some tickets for White Hart Lane for games like United or Arsenal go for ?80, which is a disgusting amount to charge someone to watch a game of football.

[hmfc_liam06]

Funnily enough as I read this thread as the commentator on MOTD just said Swansea have sold out for every home match already this season!

[Eckauskas]

Funnily enough as I read this thread as the commentator on MOTD just said Swansea have sold out for every home match already this season!

 

I was thinking that at the time.

 

A set of fans who're delighted to be where they are and will enjoy it.

 

Teams coming up who haven't been there before are always a breath of fresh air.

[benny]

It's not just us though.

 

I see some tickets for White Hart Lane for games like United or Arsenal go for ?80, which is a disgusting amount to charge someone to watch a game of football.

London has always been the same.Fans pay more for their football in the capital.City fans are now facing dearer prices because they are now in the A bracket.I'm going to the Bolton v City match tomorrow.Cheapest ticket ?27,Spurs away next again week cheapest ticket ?47,which i would imagine would be the cheapest away day for City fans in the capital this season.

Worrying signs for Arsenal though,first time i have noticed lots of empty seats for one of their home games.

[Snake Plissken]

Prices and the tendency of people to be armchair fans of the Old Firm.

 

Not many are prepared to pay a fortune to watch a team that isn't likely to win something.

 

In a wider context you have the domination a select group of teams because of the monstrosity that is the champion's league. It's geared specifically for the same few times to qualify over and over again to make more and more money so the can buy the best players and maintain a monopoly on football. It's a disgrace that a team who finishes fourth in the league can be in the champion's league and don't get me started in seeding and the fact teams who fail to qualify for the CL get another chance in the Europa League.

 

Football needs to be more competitive so I'd fix it so the Champion's League will only consist of league winners, no seeding, a couple of rounds to qualify for the groups in which every country must compete. The Europa league will be second, third and fourth in the league and follow a similar format and the cup winner's cup will return as a straight knock-out tournament.

 

Domestically, I'd introduce a price cap on tickets and fix it so the away side gets a percentage of ticket sales. It's hard to fix the problem of competitiveness when there are two teams who are so much bigger than all the others but a few little things could at least check their unfair dominance.

 

This post turned into a bit of a rambling mess but hopefully has thrown up a few ideas to discuss...

[Eckauskas]

I have a West Ham supporting mate who went to see them at Stamford Bridge last season.

 

?51 he paid for a ticket

[Eckauskas]

Prices and the tendency of people to be armchair fans of the Old Firm.

 

Not many are prepared to pay a fortune to watch a team that isn't likely to win something.

 

In a wider context you have the domination a select group of teams because of the monstrosity that is the champion's league. It's geared specifically for the same few times to qualify over and over again to make more and more money so the can buy the best players and maintain a monopoly on football. It's a disgrace that a team who finishes fourth in the league can be in the champion's league and don't get me started in seeding and the fact teams who fail to qualify for the CL get another chance in the Europa League.

 

Football needs to be more competitive so I'd fix it so the Champion's League will only consist of league winners, no seeding, a couple of rounds to qualify for the groups in which every country must compete. The Europa league will be second, third and fourth in the league and follow a similar format and the cup winner's cup will return as a straight knock-out tournament.

 

Domestically, I'd introduce a price cap on tickets and fix it so the away side gets a percentage of ticket sales. It's hard to fix the problem of competitiveness when there are two teams who are so much bigger than all the others but a few little things could at least check their unfair dominance.

 

This post turned into a bit of a rambling mess but hopefully has thrown up a few ideas to discuss...

 

Very hard to disagree with that.

 

UEFA don't seem to give a shit about the smaller teams in their competitions, they know the TV money lies with the likes of Man Utd, Barcelona, AC Milan, etc being in it every year and seem quite content with the same basic line up every year for their competitions.

 

For a team like Hearts to be able to make some kind of statement or qualify for these kinds of tournaments, Mr Romanov would have to plough an extreme amount of money into the team. Something we can't really do when the finance regulations are going to be put into place soon.

 

Football, sadly, is a very corrupt sport and there is no-one who can change things.

 

Money will always talk.

[shaun.lawson]

At club level, across most of the continent, football is broken - and there's no way you can fix it without the biggest clubs breaking away and forming their own, closed Super League.

 

Everywhere you look, there are glass ceilings. Clubs the size of Spurs, Villa, Everton or Newcastle have no hope whatsoever of ever winning the English title again; finishing 4th or 17th are practically viewed as trophies in the EPL, where the only point to a whole bunch of clubs' existence is simply to stay in the league, never mind achieve anything tangible; Spain has become the new Scotland; Scotland is only 2 years away from setting a new all time record for the number of years without a team not called either Rangers or Celtic winning its Championship.

 

The Champions League - responsible for a good deal of this mess, by providing massive revenue to those clubs fortunate enough to reach it, and locking out the rest - is more of a cartel than a competition: one which can no longer be won by former Champions like Ajax, Benfica or, for that matter, Celtic. Huge numbers of clubs across Europe qualify for the Europa League, only to treat it with total disdain. Domestic Cup competitions are treated by managers as a waste of time; and the continued impact of the Bosman rule means that clubs like our own can never realise our potential, and are effectively punished for any success we might occasionally achieve by seeing wage bills rise and players demanding moves to bigger clubs.

 

Germany have got it right; so have France. But much of the rest of Europe have not - and what's driving the decline in interest and ticket sales is, above all, lack of competition. The whole point of sport is for it to be unpredictable: for every team to have a fighting chance, and the right to dream. But to take Hearts again for a moment: 3rd place is as good as it gets, and what happens if we achieve it? Out of Europe before the end of the cricket season. Is that all there is?

 

Sadly, though, as much as huge numbers of fans everywhere would instinctively agree with Teenwolf's suggestions, almost none of them are practicable in any way. This horse bolted from the stable long, long ago now: football is a business, and you'll never persuade clubs, who've spent countless millions transforming their stadia in order to benefit from increased revenue, to somehow give any of that up. All UEFA's new regulations will do is lock the biggest clubs into their current positions, and make it impossible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight thanks to rich benefactors: but at the very least, if clubs are no longer allowed to spend more than they take in, it will surely have the effect of creating an unofficial salary cap at 98% of clubs. In turn, this should start driving ticket prices back down - and loud questions should be asked if it does not.

[davemclaren]

At club level, across most of the continent, football is broken - and there's no way you can fix it without the biggest clubs breaking away and forming their own, closed Super League.

 

Everywhere you look, there are glass ceilings. Clubs the size of Spurs, Villa, Everton or Newcastle have no hope whatsoever of ever winning the English title again; finishing 4th or 17th are practically viewed as trophies in the EPL, where the only point to a whole bunch of clubs' existence is simply to stay in the league, never mind achieve anything tangible; Spain has become the new Scotland; Scotland is only 2 years away from setting a new all time record for the number of years without a team not called either Rangers or Celtic winning its Championship.

 

The Champions League - responsible for a good deal of this mess, by providing massive revenue to those clubs fortunate enough to reach it, and locking out the rest - is more of a cartel than a competition. Huge numbers of clubs across Europe qualify for the Europa League, only to treat it with total disdain. Domestic Cup competitions are treated by managers as a waste of time; and the continued impact of the Bosman rule means that clubs like our own can never realise our potential, and are effectively punished for any success we might occasionally achieve by seeing wage bills rise and players demanding moves to bigger clubs.

 

Germany have got it right; so have France. But much of the rest of Europe have not - and what's driving the decline in interest and ticket sales is, above all, lack of competition. The whole point of sport is for it to be unpredictable: for every team to have a fighting chance, and the right to dream. But to take Hearts again for a moment: 3rd place is as good as it gets, and what happens if we achieve it? Out of Europe before the end of the cricket season. Is that all there is?

 

Sadly, though, as much as huge numbers of fans everywhere would instinctively agree with Teenwolf's suggestions, almost none of them are practicable in any way. This horse bolted from the stable long, long ago now: football is a business, and you'll never persuade clubs, who've spent countless millions transforming their stadia in order to benefit from increased revenue, to somehow give any of that up. All UEFA's new regulations will do is lock the biggest clubs into their current positions, and make it impossible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight thanks to rich benefactors: but at the very least, if clubs are no longer allowed to spend more than they take in, it will surely have the effect of creating an unofficial salary cap at 98% of clubs. In turn, this should start driving ticket prices back down - and loud questions should be asked if it does not.

 

 

UEFA need to beware the law of unintended consequences. As you say I think these new rules just make the currently rich clubs even more powerful.

[shaun.lawson]

UEFA need to beware the law of unintended consequences. As you say I think these new rules just make the currently rich clubs even more powerful.

 

I think UEFA know that. The reason the G14 was disbanded is Europe's biggest clubs now have everything they could ever want: a permanent seat at the top table, without even having to form a breakaway league.

 

Mind you, I do look at owners of clubs like Man City, Roma, PSG or Malaga, and wonder how they think they can keep spending big without breaking UEFA's new rules. Surely they're aware of them, aren't they?

[southside1874]

Seeing lots of gaps in the stands at most of the games on Match Of The Day and have been for a few seasons now. I remember in the not-to-distant past, you wouldn't see any empty seats at all at places like Ewood Park, Villa Park, Maine Road or Anfield. This was even as recently as 5 years ago, so it can't have been through the television age, as a lot of Premiership games were shown on telly anyway.

 

Then, up here, you have Motherwell, Dunfermline, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and, obviously, Hibs, who haven't seen a sellout in 10 years at least. And have Caley Thistle ever had a complete sellout for a game? We're quite lucky, as we have a large enough fanbase that means we'll be pulling in crowds of 13,000 a week, despite being poor to watch.

 

So, why do clubs not realise that the unrealistic prices they're setting for games up here and down south isn't doing them any favours? ?21 for Inverness v Hearts is an utterly ludicrous price for the kind of product on offer. And the likes of cheap days don't make any difference. Unless your team plays good football and really grabs the kids attentions on the day, you're not encouraging them to keep coming back, are you?

 

It's all about grabbing the new generations hearts, which you won't do if you're pricing people out of the market.

 

So, aside from the obvious making prices more realistic to match the level on offer, has anyone any ideas what can be done to stop the slump?

 

I can't understand an organisation that had everything and yet sold it down the river. they bow towed to the folk that wanted power and delivered nothing to the fans.

[benny]

I think UEFA know that. The reason the G14 was disbanded is Europe's biggest clubs now have everything they could ever want: a permanent seat at the top table, without even having to form a breakaway league.

 

Mind you, I do look at owners of clubs like Man City, Roma, PSG or Malaga, and wonder how they think they can keep spending big without breaking UEFA's new rules. Surely they're aware of them, aren't they?

None of the above clubs were big spenders until recently.For a Man Utd to moan about clubs spending big is laughable.United must be the biggest spenders in British football from the 80's onwards.

In City's case their owner is a great business man so no doubt he will find a way without breaking any rules.

I find there is a lot of similarities between Hearts and City in when folk say the league needed teams to challenge the top 2 or 4.When in reality they hate it when it happens,especially when the team is backed by johnny foreigner money.

 

Edit

Sorry shaun i somehow thought i was replying to an Eckauskas post.

[southside1874]

I think UEFA know that. The reason the G14 was disbanded is Europe's biggest clubs now have everything they could ever want: a permanent seat at the top table, without even having to form a breakaway league.

 

Mind you, I do look at owners of clubs like Man City, Roma, PSG or Malaga, and wonder how they think they can keep spending big without breaking UEFA's new rules. Surely they're aware of them, aren't they?

Football is the new religion it creates greed and encourages the tribalism that makes control without conscience possible.

[kamac1]

Seeing lots of gaps in the stands at most of the games on Match Of The Day and have been for a few seasons now. I remember in the not-to-distant past, you wouldn't see any empty seats at all at places like Ewood Park, Villa Park, Maine Road or Anfield. This was even as recently as 5 years ago, so it can't have been through the television age, as a lot of Premiership games were shown on telly anyway.

 

Then, up here, you have Motherwell, Dunfermline, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and, obviously, Hibs, who haven't seen a sellout in 10 years at least. And have Caley Thistle ever had a complete sellout for a game? We're quite lucky, as we have a large enough fanbase that means we'll be pulling in crowds of 13,000 a week, despite being poor to watch.

 

So, why do clubs not realise that the unrealistic prices they're setting for games up here and down south isn't doing them any favours? ?21 for Inverness v Hearts is an utterly ludicrous price for the kind of product on offer. And the likes of cheap days don't make any difference. Unless your team plays good football and really grabs the kids attentions on the day, you're not encouraging them to keep coming back, are you?

 

It's all about grabbing the new generations hearts, which you won't do if you're pricing people out of the market.

 

So, aside from the obvious making prices more realistic to match the level on offer, has anyone any ideas what can be done to stop the slump?

so you reckon hearts are poor to watch now, count yourself very lucky that you were not around during the yo-yo years of the late 70's early 80's but then again it was fantastic to watch the emergence of john robertson, gary mackay, craig levein, scott crabbe, nurtured along by jimmy bone, alex macdonald roddy macdonald, sandy clark, willie johnstone, sandy jardine after the worst spell in hearts history.

[Gregory House M.D.]

None of the above clubs were big spenders until recently.For a Man Utd to moan about clubs spending big is laughable.United must be the biggest spenders in British football from the 80's onwards.

In City's case their owner is a great business man so no doubt he will find a way without breaking any rules.

I find there is a lot of similarities between Hearts and City in when folk say the league needed teams to challenge the top 2 or 4.When in reality they hate it when it happens,especially when the team is backed by johnny foreigner money.

 

Edit

Sorry shaun i somehow thought i was replying to an Eckauskas post.

United have spent roughly ?500m in 25 years, Chelsea have spent roughly ?600m in 7 years, Manchester City have spent roughly ?400m in 3 years.

 

Chelsea per season: ?85,714,285

United per season: ?20,000,000

City per season: ?133,333,333

[benny]

United have spent roughly ?500m in 25 years, Chelsea have spent roughly ?600m in 7 years, Manchester City have spent roughly ?400m in 3 years.

 

Chelsea per season: ?85,714,285

United per season: ?20,000,000

City per season: ?133,333,333

 

Man Utd was always the richest club from the 80's onwards and were the biggest spenders for years pre Sky and Abramovich.Transfer fees were smaller but United were regular buyers of multi million pound players.They were also buying players for 28 to 30 odd million before anybody else.They had money to burn and little debt until the Glazers took over.

[Gregory House M.D.]

Man Utd was always the richest club from the 80's onwards and were the biggest spenders for years pre Sky and Abramovich.Transfer fees were smaller but United were regular buyers of multi million pound players.They were also buying players for 28 to 30 odd million before anybody else.They had money to burn and little debt until the Glazers took over.

All very true. I was pointing out the inaccuracies in your previous post though. Manchester United have not been the biggest spenders since the Eighties. Far from it when it's per season.

[Alfie Conn]

Totally agree with the OP

 

I have been saying for a while this would be the season that prices would finally start to hit fans.

 

As mentioned i cannot remember AFC having empty seats before but i persnally know Goons that have either stopped going or have sharply cut back on the number of matches they attend. You can pay ?100 for a ticket at the bowl of silence these days.

 

Same at ours. We usually have something like a 99.5% capacity every season. My mate came back off holiday & bought 2 tickets for the Cat A City game long after they went on sale. Unheard of.

 

Even the game against you chaps. Going to give a bad impression but i have 4 mates that go to every home game that are giving it a swerve as they are saving their money for Prem games. Can't blame them.

 

 

Heard Man U have 4k seats for Spurs on Monday. Also unheard of. Chelsea STs went to general sale FFS.

 

With the double dip recession just around the corner this trend will only accelerate.

 

The financial Chickens are coming home to roost.

 

I refuse to pay ?55 (2nd cheapest) for a Cat A ticket so that some mercenary ***** can earn ?200k a week.

 

I will still do 20 odd homes this season but will pick & choose my games.

[Cabbie754]

Television is ruining football in so many ways and attendances are suffering as a result. Prices are a factor but why go to a game on a wet windy day when you can watch football in the comfort of your home or with a beer in the pub with replays and match analysis.

 

Football was always played on a Saturday at 3.00pm. Now so that games can be covered there can be three games on a Saturday with staggered times then a couple on a Sunday and that's only the EPL. As money gets tighter it is going to get worse but the main point is you can watch Barcelona, Man U, Inter or Brechin City (no idea why I chose them) but most would choose to stay at home.

 

I may be showing my age but before blanket coverage of football and live games, you could go to a game and have arguments about certain aspects of the game afterwards in the pub. Thesedays you return to the pub to find that those watching the game live on TV have had the advantage of replays and match analysis and got a better view of the game than you did.

 

Another wee point was that European games were always on a Wednesday regardless of what :down:competition but now they are spread over the midweek so that they can be covered by TV which means that every night of the week live football is on, that can't be good for attendancies. Anyway, I'm sure most kickbackers no what I'm trying to say but I'll not go on any longer but I've always been against live games apart from the World cup of cup finals and so on.

[Alfie Conn]

Excellent post

 

The season before last i attended a Spurs home game on EVERY day of the week..... madness

[Buffalo Bill]

Just another point, but there far too much football on TV. I remember in the 80s, the Busy Bee running a bus down to Peebles or somewhere to take in The Big Match if it was Liverpool or Man U involved.

 

 

Up in Edinburgh, you'd get Scotland international games live on TV, the Scottish Cup Final (with a choice of Jock Brown on STV or Archie McPherson on BBC1), and the European finals; Uefa Cup et al.

 

 

And that was it, minus Sportscene, Scotsport and Sports Night with Harry Carpenter.

 

 

Now there is football everywhere. I would never now watch a bog standard SPL match. I don't go out of my way to watch the Scottish Cup Final anymore. I watched Arsenal v Liverpool yesterday, but it didn't move me in any way.

 

 

In the SPL, for us to average 14,000 is great compared to Hubs and Aberdeen. Stadiums with continue to empty. Easter Road and Pittodrie was a sea of empty seats yesterday, outnumbering fans by two or three to one.

 

 

Scottish football is terrible and incestuous. The only hope for me is that Hearts get tapping into a potential I feel exists, but requires a massive overhaul throughout the club. Hearts themselves, can inject new life in the SPL, but only when the club gets its own act together. The 'fitness' thread that's been kicking about highlights just some of our problems - problems that are all solvable btw.

 

 

 

.

[105inarow]

At club level, across most of the continent, football is broken - and there's no way you can fix it without the biggest clubs breaking away and forming their own, closed Super League.

 

Everywhere you look, there are glass ceilings. Clubs the size of Spurs, Villa, Everton or Newcastle have no hope whatsoever of ever winning the English title again; finishing 4th or 17th are practically viewed as trophies in the EPL, where the only point to a whole bunch of clubs' existence is simply to stay in the league, never mind achieve anything tangible; Spain has become the new Scotland; Scotland is only 2 years away from setting a new all time record for the number of years without a team not called either Rangers or Celtic winning its Championship.

 

The Champions League - responsible for a good deal of this mess, by providing massive revenue to those clubs fortunate enough to reach it, and locking out the rest - is more of a cartel than a competition: one which can no longer be won by former Champions like Ajax, Benfica or, for that matter, Celtic. Huge numbers of clubs across Europe qualify for the Europa League, only to treat it with total disdain. Domestic Cup competitions are treated by managers as a waste of time; and the continued impact of the Bosman rule means that clubs like our own can never realise our potential, and are effectively punished for any success we might occasionally achieve by seeing wage bills rise and players demanding moves to bigger clubs.

 

Germany have got it right; so have France. But much of the rest of Europe have not - and what's driving the decline in interest and ticket sales is, above all, lack of competition. The whole point of sport is for it to be unpredictable: for every team to have a fighting chance, and the right to dream. But to take Hearts again for a moment: 3rd place is as good as it gets, and what happens if we achieve it? Out of Europe before the end of the cricket season. Is that all there is?

 

Sadly, though, as much as huge numbers of fans everywhere would instinctively agree with Teenwolf's suggestions, almost none of them are practicable in any way. This horse bolted from the stable long, long ago now: football is a business, and you'll never persuade clubs, who've spent countless millions transforming their stadia in order to benefit from increased revenue, to somehow give any of that up. All UEFA's new regulations will do is lock the biggest clubs into their current positions, and make it impossible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight thanks to rich benefactors: but at the very least, if clubs are no longer allowed to spend more than they take in, it will surely have the effect of creating an unofficial salary cap at 98% of clubs. In turn, this should start driving ticket prices back down - and loud questions should be asked if it does not.

 

The irony of you not supporting football yourself is obviously lost on you then?

[portobellojambo1]

In terms of the slump in attendances I don't think any club will do anything to set a benchmark. Why would those who have benefited to the extent they have want to do anything to change the status quo. One could suggest they may change their viewpoint if clubs start to go by the wayside in noticeable numbers, but if it isn't affecting them again I don't think they will give a hoot.

 

Unfortunately the days are long gone when football was for the working class man, I can spin my salary out to ensure I can attend all HMFC matches in a season, if living in the likes of London, and following one of the clubs down there while earning that same salary but with a London weighting on top I would be unable to do that. The supporter today is actually probably more of an inconvenience to clubs, grumbling about ticket prices, price of food/drinks inside stadia, moaning about the amount of football on TV etc.

 

Football clubs on the other hand, or rather those who now occupy the board rooms at football clubs, are interested in only one thing, making money, and loads of it. Therefore they aren't going to reduce ticket prices by choice, nor are they going to come forward with a suggestion that football goes back to the days of highlights on TV at the weekend. Certainly the clubs in the EPL aren't going to do that, without the money from Sky every single club in the EPL would be well and truly fecked. Without Sky's input none of the players who turned out for Spurs on Thursday night, for example, would have been playing. The income Spurs generate through their fan base alone is nowhere near enough to ensure their side could put out players earning ?60-?80k per week. Their turnover last season was reported on TV as around ?120 million, only a fraction of that will have been generated by the fans through gate receipts/merchandising etc. If Sky were to find something which they felt would attract a bigger worldwide TV audience and pulled the plug on the EPL chances are every team playing in that league would be in administration shortly after.

 

Despite the Champions League being an anomaly, given the number of teams who now compete in it who have never won their domestic league for an eternity, and are never likely to do so going forward, those who benefit from it will wish to continue to do so. Football has turned away from being a sport into a competition for self preservation, and those clubs who are getting the most finance at the moment ain't going to give it up. You only have to look at the TV deals up here in Scotland as an example and the constant rhetoric from Rangers/Celtic about getting into the EPL. Neither half of the OF will shift an inch on a fairer share of TV money, and they want into the EPL for one thing only, money. And long gone are the days when fan power could force change, as I said way up, in the modern game we are probably a bit of an inconvenience to clubs, if they could get every game on TV with a guaranteed income they would be delighted and wouldn't give a feck as to our opinion.

[Alfie Conn]

I mostly agree with that.

 

Although Sky tend to use the support & rivalries aspect of the EPL in their advertising gumph.

 

So they can show how 'passionate' EPL fans are to their Asian subscribers & hence what a great product it is.

 

Load of old shite

[leipzig76]

London has always been the same.Fans pay more for their football in the capital.City fans are now facing dearer prices because they are now in the A bracket.I'm going to the Bolton v City match tomorrow.Cheapest ticket ?27,Spurs away next again week cheapest ticket ?47,which i would imagine would be the cheapest away day for City fans in the capital this season.

Worrying signs for Arsenal though,first time i have noticed lots of empty seats for one of their home games.

Interesting that Arsenal gave the attendance yesterday as 60,090 and their capacity is 60,355 - looked a lot more than 265 empty seats.

[Alfie Conn]

Interesting that Arsenal gave the attendance yesterday as 60,090 and their capacity is 60,355 - looked a lot more than 265 empty seats.

 

Arse base it on tickets sold not bums on seats.

 

Basically it means there were a lot of ST holders that didn't make the effort to attend.

[hmfc1440]

At club level, across most of the continent, football is broken - and there's no way you can fix it without the biggest clubs breaking away and forming their own, closed Super League.

 

Everywhere you look, there are glass ceilings. Clubs the size of Spurs, Villa, Everton or Newcastle have no hope whatsoever of ever winning the English title again; finishing 4th or 17th are practically viewed as trophies in the EPL, where the only point to a whole bunch of clubs' existence is simply to stay in the league, never mind achieve anything tangible; Spain has become the new Scotland; Scotland is only 2 years away from setting a new all time record for the number of years without a team not called either Rangers or Celtic winning its Championship.

 

The Champions League - responsible for a good deal of this mess, by providing massive revenue to those clubs fortunate enough to reach it, and locking out the rest - is more of a cartel than a competition: one which can no longer be won by former Champions like Ajax, Benfica or, for that matter, Celtic. Huge numbers of clubs across Europe qualify for the Europa League, only to treat it with total disdain. Domestic Cup competitions are treated by managers as a waste of time; and the continued impact of the Bosman rule means that clubs like our own can never realise our potential, and are effectively punished for any success we might occasionally achieve by seeing wage bills rise and players demanding moves to bigger clubs.

 

Germany have got it right; so have France. But much of the rest of Europe have not - and what's driving the decline in interest and ticket sales is, above all, lack of competition. The whole point of sport is for it to be unpredictable: for every team to have a fighting chance, and the right to dream. But to take Hearts again for a moment: 3rd place is as good as it gets, and what happens if we achieve it? Out of Europe before the end of the cricket season. Is that all there is?

 

Sadly, though, as much as huge numbers of fans everywhere would instinctively agree with Teenwolf's suggestions, almost none of them are practicable in any way. This horse bolted from the stable long, long ago now: football is a business, and you'll never persuade clubs, who've spent countless millions transforming their stadia in order to benefit from increased revenue, to somehow give any of that up. All UEFA's new regulations will do is lock the biggest clubs into their current positions, and make it impossible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight thanks to rich benefactors: but at the very least, if clubs are no longer allowed to spend more than they take in, it will surely have the effect of creating an unofficial salary cap at 98% of clubs. In turn, this should start driving ticket prices back down - and loud questions should be asked if it does not.

 

Not true. Hearts have failed miserably with the money spent since 05/06. The domination of 3rd spot is Hearts target and that would mean finishing 3rd for 3 straight seasons to achieve consistent performance and improve on recent records but we can't find that level of consistency. And until we do we can't move to the next stage. For all the money we spend we appear to endlessly carry a significant amount of deadwood in the squad and even although the certain deadwood is offloaded after time - by the time we have shifted that batch there is a new deadwood batch already there.

Until we have a strategy in place of identifying reasonably taleted player's and building a trim squad with room for the odd improvement we will always float around as the unfinished article under Romanov.

Roy Keane always felt that he failed at Manchester United because although they won a Champions League they did not dominate Europe. Domination of 3rd place is Hearts next

target not 2nd place.

[Le Chat]

The product on offer compared to the prices charged now is a fecking joke.

 

The standard of football currently being played in the SPL is worth no more than ?10-?15 admittance fee yet some of these guys knocking about (who would have been laughed at even 10-15 years ago) are earning up to ?250K per year. Utter madness.

 

The game is about to hit a tipping point imo as fans are already starting to vote with their feet.

[I.T.K]

Just another point, but there far too much football on TV. I remember in the 80s, the Busy Bee running a bus down to Peebles or somewhere to take in The Big Match if it was Liverpool or Man U involved.

 

 

Up in Edinburgh, you'd get Scotland international games live on TV, the Scottish Cup Final (with a choice of Jock Brown on STV or Archie McPherson on BBC1), and the European finals; Uefa Cup et al.

 

 

And that was it, minus Sportscene, Scotsport and Sports Night with Harry Carpenter.

 

 

Now there is football everywhere. I would never now watch a bog standard SPL match. I don't go out of my way to watch the Scottish Cup Final anymore. I watched Arsenal v Liverpool yesterday, but it didn't move me in any way.

 

 

In the SPL, for us to average 14,000 is great compared to Hubs and Aberdeen. Stadiums with continue to empty. Easter Road and Pittodrie was a sea of empty seats yesterday, outnumbering fans by two or three to one.

 

 

Scottish football is terrible and incestuous. The only hope for me is that Hearts get tapping into a potential I feel exists, but requires a massive overhaul throughout the club. Hearts themselves, can inject new life in the SPL, but only when the club gets its own act together. The 'fitness' thread that's been kicking about highlights just some of our problems - problems that are all solvable btw.

 

 

 

.

 

 

I have to agree with to much football on TV and we tend to watch the best of it. I.e. we watch Mau U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan teams etc. Watching teams like this is almost dangerous for part time SPL fan's as they get conditioned to watching best of the best and when they do see a Hearts game they get frustrated that the quality is not the same. When you ask them, 'Why dont you come more often?' There answer is.. 'SPL football is $h!te!' What can you say to them?

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Bill]

I have to agree with to much football on TV and we tend to watch the best of it. I.e. we watch Mau U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan teams etc. Watching teams like this is almost dangerous for part time SPL fan's as they get conditioned to watching best of the best and when they do see a Hearts game they get frustrated that the quality is not the same. When you ask them, 'Why dont you come more often?' There answer is.. 'SPL football is $h!te!' What can you say to them?

 

 

Furthermore, compare SPL prices with Germany, and then you see the biggest joke of all.

[alicante jambo]

Regards the prices its not just scotland i went to a couple of playoff matches here in spain couple of months back 1st game elche vs valadolid price of the ticket 30euro and then the final match elche vs granada and my ticket was 50euro and this isnt for la liga.To be fair normally its approx 25 euro which is still a lot.

[Deodato]

Interesting thread, both timely and very relevant to the entertainment wallet. I'm going to offer some angles from the music industry to broaden the debate out. Firstly, a personal perspective.

 

As a Jambo in London, I did have a top Arsenal season ticket, sitting next to my best mate (his sister gave up her seat) and was paying ?1,400 for it. The football was world class, the atmosphere tosh. One day, I saw four boys in front of me doing their homework during the match and thought ? screw it. This is not Tyncastle, this is not value for money. I switched to rugby, some other friends were going to see Harlequins and I asked how much for a season ticket there. The season ticket office discounted an offer for me at ?250 for a season, great seats, excellent pre-match and post-match entertainment, mums pushing buggies up and down the side of the pitch and ten times the atmosphere of the Emirtates. As a punter (and a new dad) looking for a bit of sport to fill up the weekend that was family friendly, I?m happy. I?m also saving ?1,100 by giving up on EPL football.

 

That?s me and each to their own, but there are more empty red seats appearing at the Emirates despite claims of a seven year waiting list for tickets. Indeed, I have an economic theory which is that given the corporate hospitality drive, the stadium is sold out even if it isn?t, hence there is no incentive to do better (or for Wenger to sing big players) as you cannot increase crowd or capacity, despite the fact fewer fans are going. I think this theory will prove right this season as Arsenal fans who are disillusioned with the team will stop going yet they will still claim (as they always do on the PA system) 61,453 fans attending ? thank you very much.

 

Broaden it out and you are seeing something similar happen in music. Whilst theatre are reporting record receipts, the live music industry reported its first fall in recent memory in 2010, down just shy of ten percent. The fact Take That didn?t tour last year explained a lot, and they are on the road this year which means live may well bounce back on the basis of one single band ? it?s a hits business. But beneath the top line, you are seeing bands, managers and promoters take a more risk averse approach to touring and ticket pricing. Instead of doing a stadium as a stand alone headline act, some bands chose to do arenas. Instead of doing arenas, other bands did mid-level halls. Touring aside, the success story of live music was, is and remains festivals ? still growing in ticket price, capacity, calendar period and bill. You get more bang for your buck and consumers don?t have that much bucks. One problem with that is heritage bands dominate festivals, and festivals dominate the calendar ? from May to October as opposed to ONLY June and July ? making it harder for emerging bands to get on the road and tour alone. Instead they are touring festivals.

 

My conclusion, there is simply less disposable income around in the UK economy and consumers are making tough choices, Those choices can go either way, perhaps less European breaks and more live football, or less live football and more Sky sports. Ditto every other entertainment industry. Either way, football clubs and concert promoters who hike ticket prices in the current economic climate deserve to get their fingers burned.

 

In the music industry, Take That cracked it, a reasonable price, a massive tour, loyalty to the fans and they can do it all again in two years time, just as they did two years ago. One-point-seven-million fans might have crap taste in music, but they do show the logic in setting a fair price for the product. Now is not the time to be greedy.

 

Deodato

[The People's Chimp]

Nothing to disagree with in the excellent posts from Eck, Teenwolf and Shaun.

 

Yet those at the top pretend they can't see it...

[I.T.K]

Furthermore, compare SPL prices with Germany, and then you see the biggest joke of all.

 

I was at the K?ln game yesterday and I have to say the standard was pretty poor. But as per my last post,,,, maybe I watch to many high profile games.

 

I will say the atmosphere in the stadium was to die for. I would go again just for that..

 

 

[the windae cleaner]

got a mate who is a caley fan who was at aberdeen yesterday . . Got charged ?23 . . . Shocking

[Gershwin]

London has always been the same.Fans pay more for their football in the capital.City fans are now facing dearer prices because they are now in the A bracket.I'm going to the Bolton v City match tomorrow.Cheapest ticket ?27,Spurs away next again week cheapest ticket ?47,which i would imagine would be the cheapest away day for City fans in the capital this season.

Worrying signs for Arsenal though,first time i have noticed lots of empty seats for one of their home games.

 

Was that not just when it started pissing it down? Looked full for most of the game until the folk at the front moved.

[sac]

Prices and the tendency of people to be armchair fans of the Old Firm.

 

Not many are prepared to pay a fortune to watch a team that isn't likely to win something.

 

In a wider context you have the domination a select group of teams because of the monstrosity that is the champion's league. It's geared specifically for the same few times to qualify over and over again to make more and more money so the can buy the best players and maintain a monopoly on football. It's a disgrace that a team who finishes fourth in the league can be in the champion's league and don't get me started in seeding and the fact teams who fail to qualify for the CL get another chance in the Europa League.

 

Football needs to be more competitive so I'd fix it so the Champion's League will only consist of league winners, no seeding, a couple of rounds to qualify for the groups in which every country must compete. The Europa league will be second, third and fourth in the league and follow a similar format and the cup winner's cup will return as a straight knock-out tournament.

 

Domestically, I'd introduce a price cap on tickets and fix it so the away side gets a percentage of ticket sales. It's hard to fix the problem of competitiveness when there are two teams who are so much bigger than all the others but a few little things could at least check their unfair dominance.

 

This post turned into a bit of a rambling mess but hopefully has thrown up a few ideas to discuss...

 

Radio 5 Live sports economist on the show on Friday morning qouted the current value of Hearts as being circa ?10 milion and Spurs being ?200 million thus highlighting not only the reason for the result, but also the gulf in quality that the money clearly buys.(would be interesting to know what the current value of the OF squads would be currently)

 

If you think back to the days when the OF were spending silly money to buy titles and the CL money they got as well, we had the same situation.

 

Changed days then that we now have an SPL with little income, a more level playing field financially and the gulf between them and us drawing closer. The obvious difference being their fanbase being 3 or 4 times that of ours.

 

Whilst the points difference at end of season between them/us still does'nt reflect the gap closing year on year, given time maybe it will and thats when you have to be ready to sieze that opportunity.

 

I just have a feeling that PS will turn us into a half decent side with what he's got, don't know why but I think we're going to have a good season which hopefully starts today.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

When you look at what you pay to watch Hearts and then really look at how pish poor we are (Thursday hit it home big time) ... it really is a complete piss take the prices charged.

 

?15 should be the MAX you pay to watch an SPL game. The absolute maximum.

 

SPL. 30 notes to watch two HORRENDOUS teams play what they think is football. Shocking stuff. No wonder wee bairns would rather sit and play FIFA or watch the Premiership on the tele.

[SectionDJambo]

The original thought about Sky's coverage of the EPL, was that watching it in your home encouraged you to go along and watch it live. Such was the spectacle, that the paying punter, who had maybe lapsed in his enthusiasm for live football, would want to be part of the excitement again.

However, the arogance of the clubs and Sky, and the greed of the players, has squeezed the fans until they are now seriously considering what else they need the cash for. Goodness knows how much it would cost a fan from London, say, to travel to Liverpool to watch their team, once all expenses had been paid for. The various kick off times are also a disgrace and an unsult to the paying punters. It's just a "if you don't like it, tough" attitude, from Sky and the EPL.

In Germany, they play only 1 match on Friday evening, 2 on Sunday afternoon,and the rest on Saturday afternoon. They announce the affected games weeks in advance to let fans make their plans. They enjoy big crowds most of the time. If they play a midweek league game, it is a very unusual event. I think there is one midweek fixture list for this season. When they do this, they call it "an English week".

Whatever success the EPL clubs have had in the Champions League, has been at the cost of the English national side, due to the number of highly paid stars from abroad playing there. So the fans of the lesser clubs in England, who would enjoy any national side's success, don't get that either. European competition has been stripped away from all but the elite. Even the Europa Cup groups will have a lot of big name clubs in there, with very little in the way of emerging clubs, due to the seeding system making it very difficult to break in. UEFA have forced clubs to play very early in the season, instead of the September starting date of the past, due to the complete lack of enthusiasm for the Inter Toto Cup. The idea of playing European competition so early was not popular, so they forced clubs to do it by making it the only way to enter the main competitions. All of the parachute entries to the lesser competition make it even harder for lesser clubs to break into the seeded group.

Certainly, it is highly unlikely that a Scottish club of the standing of Hearts, ever repeats our run to the Quarter Finals in 1989. Sooner or later, the interest in taking part will fade due to the realisation that the obstacles to even reasonable success are too great.

Football in the UK, in particular, had better heed the warning signs before they cause damage that won't be repaired very easily.

[hmfc fan]

i hear its ?40 to go to an old firm but its 17,27 quid for derby

[Deodato]

Spot on post, agree with all of it. One point of clarity.

 

The original thought about Sky's coverage of the EPL, was that watching it in your home encouraged you to go along and watch it live. Such was the spectacle, that the paying punter, who had maybe lapsed in his enthusiasm for live football, would want to be part of the excitement again.

 

This actually happened. Rather than cannibalise the paying punter, when Sky invested in the EPL attendances rose.

 

The fact this did happen, initially, was an important observation for what followed, which the rest of your post deals with perfectly.

 

For further reading on this, the author is Stefan Szymanski. Most of his books are cool, "Why England Lose" is badly aid out but accessible and in airports, "Play Books and Cheque Books" is academic but insightful. I recommend the latter.

 

Also, on European football - ditto, its total greed. The number of games you are asking fans to pay and see is now disproportionate to the value they place on the tournament.

 

Something has to give.

 

Deodato

[benny]

When you look at what you pay to watch Hearts and then really look at how pish poor we are (Thursday hit it home big time) ... it really is a complete piss take the prices charged.

 

?15 should be the MAX you pay to watch an SPL game. The absolute maximum.

 

SPL. 30 notes to watch two HORRENDOUS teams play what they think is football. Shocking stuff. No wonder wee bairns would rather sit and play FIFA or watch the Premiership on the tele.

That's the main problem,children would rather watch English football on tv than go to an spl match.Who could blame them.Where have all the heroes gone.On Sky

sports.You can watch Messi,Ronaldo,Rooney,Beckham,Tevez and the likes in the comfort of your living room or go and watch the likes of Black,Murray,Brown,Weir and the likes live paying over the odds for admission and food.

I just cannot see us having heroes like Robbo,Neimi,Cruikie,Ford and Cameron again

Sadly.

[Das Root]

I would imagine that sky would prefer close door games and everyone watching via a subscription. maybe some clubs too if the compensation for loss of ticket sales was there. Cheaper than running a stadium and you can then sell the ground for further money. Football then becomes a product for consumption, no longer a sport.

[Alfie Conn]

I would imagine that sky would prefer close door games and everyone watching via a subscription. maybe some clubs too if the compensation for loss of ticket sales was there. Cheaper than running a stadium and you can then sell the ground for further money. Football then becomes a product for consumption, no longer a sport.

 

That point is very close at hand.

[105inarow]

This time last week people on here were willing to pay five times the face value for a Spurs ticket, one 5-0 defeat later and it's too dear.

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

The Emirates was full yesterday. Folk only moved once it started pissing down.

[The Comedian]

It's shocking value for money up here and when money is tight nobody is in a hurry to be ripped off once a week.

 

To me, purely based on entertainment and relative cost, 27 quid to watch Hearts v Aberdeen or 10 to go to see a new release at the cinema. No brainer.

 

And what other medium treats It's customers like scum?

 

It's all wrong.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Furthermore, compare SPL prices with Germany, and then you see the biggest joke of all.

That's German efficiency for you.