Debut 4 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Never change. Having read some very good points on other threads about our passing and movement one of the other main points for me, as important as playing the game itself with the ball, is desire....... puting yourself into the game and making it happen. Too many of our players aren`t doing it. Sergio doesn`t have a magic wand. He WILL get through to some, he WILL inspire certain individuals with the capacity to improve..... to improve more.....but he`ll hit a brick wall with other members of our squad who simply don`t have the constitution to take the battle to the opposition or improve for that matter..... Did i say battle?..... yes, i did. Amongst all the romanticising about how we are going to end up playing great passing football under PS, one thing that`ll influence that and only make it work is desire. Desire to get involved(he said that himself), desire to WANT to be better , to WANT to do something worthwhile for the team.....to ultimately have the presence of mind during a game to realise you have to up the ante to get a result..... Too many of our players fall short on that category im afraid and PS new ideas won`t work until he gets a chance to bring in some of his own players and some of our prominent players start stepping up to the mark week to week.........and he gets to bin the sheight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neave Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It worries me that some professional footbal midfielders are so stupid that, when the team is told to build up from the back, they don't even attempt to make space to receive the ball from the centre halves (Mrowiec not included). It's not even a case of not understanding tactics. If your centre half has the ball, and is looking to play a short pass, WHY THE **** AREN'T YOU TRYING TO MAKE SPACE AND BECOME AVAILABLE FOR HIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_razors_edge Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It's interesting to note that by all accounts the one midfielder who had the savvy to look for the ball from defence today was mroviec. This would suggest to me that it's the Scottish players who perhaps have an underdeveloped understanding of the game. It's worrying but not altogether surprising that this would be the case and just goes to show how poorly our players are coached at various levels in Scotland. That guys like hammill and black have played at spl level for 7/8 years and still cant command the basics of moving to receive the ball, moving the ball on and making a subsequent supporting movement for the man on the ball is frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back of the Bus Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It worries me that some professional footbal midfielders are so stupid that, when the team is told to build up from the back, they don't even attempt to make space to receive the ball from the centre halves (Mrowiec not included). It's not even a case of not understanding tactics. If your centre half has the ball, and is looking to play a short pass, WHY THE **** AREN'T YOU TRYING TO MAKE SPACE AND BECOME AVAILABLE FOR HIM? Very much this. We look absolutely static. Zal looks lost at times when he gets the ball to try and start something. Doesn't help that he ALSO stands still but that's another matter...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It's interesting to note that by all accounts the one midfielder who had the savvy to look for the ball from defence today was mroviec. This would suggest to me that it's the Scottish players who perhaps have an underdeveloped understanding of the game. It's worrying but not altogether surprising that this would be the case and just goes to show how poorly our players are coached at various levels in Scotland. That guys like hammill and black have played at spl level for 7/8 years and still cant command the basics of moving to receive the ball, moving the ball on and making a subsequent supporting movement for the man on the ball is frightening. But but but. Black and Hammil can cover every blade of grass! It was this acceptance imo that got JJ the boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 Is it solely coaching though? I think alot of players today (not just some Hearts players) lack basic football intelligence, natural intelligence or no real football brain. As Neave pointed out, it should be a basic to support a team-mate on the ball! The bigger picture extends to general movement upfront and in midfield to create. Or maybe some of our players don`t work hard enough or as Sergio more or less said, hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajthejambo Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It worries me that some professional footbal midfielders are so stupid that, when the team is told to build up from the back, they don't even attempt to make space to receive the ball from the centre halves (Mrowiec not included). It's not even a case of not understanding tactics. If your centre half has the ball, and is looking to play a short pass, WHY THE **** AREN'T YOU TRYING TO MAKE SPACE AND BECOME AVAILABLE FOR HIM? Excellent point. I wasn't at the game today, but on Thursday and last weekend this was the case. On may occasions, Zal was gesturing exactly this to Black and you could see how frustrated he was by the lack of movement ahead of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C 7 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Some good points by the OP, we need to win our personal battles on the pitch and from there the team wins the 11 v 11 battle, everyone praises the barcelona way of playing football but perhaps themost impressive thing about that barca team is their work ethic both as individuals and how they help their teammates. Then from there you go onto playing football, v antwerp it was evident to me that thete wasnt too many players who evidently wanted on the ball, of course thats maybe a by gone product of the JJ era but I fully expect Paulo Sergio to demand more.in a footballing sense from our players. Id say within a teams makeup there will be players who are relied upon by other players to.do.the skillful stuff,fair enough but Id say within our new gaffers ethos will be a demand for us as a team to be more comfortable on the ball,are we capable,probably not but we are in dire need of a couple of central midfielders who can make things tick. For now though getting the basics right would be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wright1989 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 But but but. Black and Hammil can cover every blade of grass! It was this acceptance imo that got JJ the boot. Definitely, I'm quite shocked that most of us are starting to agree on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 Some good points by the OP, we need to win our personal battles on the pitch and from there the team wins the 11 v 11 battle, everyone praises the barcelona way of playing football but perhaps themost impressive thing about that barca team is their work ethic both as individuals and how they help their teammates. Then from there you go onto playing football, v antwerp it was evident to me that thete wasnt too many players who evidently wanted on the ball, of course thats maybe a by gone product of the JJ era but I fully expect Paulo Sergio to demand more.in a footballing sense from our players. Id say within a teams makeup there will be players who are relied upon by other players to.do.the skillful stuff,fair enough but Id say within our new gaffers ethos will be a demand for us as a team to be more comfortable on the ball,are we capable,probably not but we are in dire need of a couple of central midfielders who can make things tick. For now though getting the basics right would be good. Spot on, but to be fair i think we all thought that would`ve been a main signing focus pre-season. Now that we know the way PS wants to play, two ball players are absolutely crucial to make it work. We have plenty threat out wide but we severely lack any real movement forward or genuine know-how from the middle of the park. It`s been a long time since i saw a consistent link up between at midfielder and forward at Hearts. It brings a whole new threat for the opposition. With our widemen and a couple of shrewd midfield signings it would be a mouthwatering prospect. At the mo, if nothing comes from the width where else have we got threat or good service for the frontmen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejtee Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Sadly for Scottish football I have not seen a decent team yet this season and the overall skill level is pretty poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo_til_i_die Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Motherwell, to be fair, taught us a lesson on how to pass and move for a good 15 minute period today, and even they didn't look up for it as much as they have in previous meetings, when more often than not, they spray the ball about much better and move a lot more. Why can't we do that!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo_til_i_die Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Sadly for Scottish football I have not seen a decent team yet this season and the overall skill level is pretty poor. Sadly I think people compare our game too much to other top leagues they see on TV like the English Prem, Serie A and Bundesliga. Yes our game isnt great, but much better than it was 15 years ago IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejtee Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Only really when they had the extra man. They were every bit as bad as us in the first half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadjambo Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I would have thought having Skacel in the starting 11 would be essential if we want to play "football". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo_til_i_die Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Only really when they had the extra man. They were every bit as bad as us in the first half. Agreed, but in the second half, just like they normally are against us from previous meetings over the years, they are a better passing side. We pass the ball and stand still, lack of movement creates nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rods Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I think personally its a lot to do with tatics No striker for a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy2 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Never change. Having read some very good points on other threads about our passing and movement one of the other main points for me, as important as playing the game itself with the ball, is desire....... puting yourself into the game and making it happen. Too many of our players aren`t doing it. Sergio doesn`t have a magic wand. He WILL get through to some, he WILL inspire certain individuals with the capacity to improve..... to improve more.....but he`ll hit a brick wall with other members of our squad who simply don`t have the constitution to take the battle to the opposition or improve for that matter..... Did i say battle?..... yes, i did. Amongst all the romanticising about how we are going to end up playing great passing football under PS, one thing that`ll influence that and only make it work is desire. Desire to get involved(he said that himself), desire to WANT to be better , to WANT to do something worthwhile for the team.....to ultimately have the presence of mind during a game to realise you have to up the ante to get a result..... Too many of our players fall short on that category im afraid and PS new ideas won`t work until he gets a chance to bring in some of his own players and some of our prominent players start stepping up to the mark week to week.........and he gets to bin the sheight. Almost exactly what I said (well, meant) leaving the ground today, the passing game is all fine and dandy and at times easy on the eye but in this league there are times you have to mix it up and you must be capable of doing that. Unfortunately we looked as slow as a pub team with these tactics (although they kept the ball from Motherwell for the most part until red card) and we were taking three or four touches to Barcelona's (sorry, Hibernian's) one. I'd like to give it time but have to agree that an upheavel of personnel looks like being required for it to work, and it's unlikely we could afford the personnel required to make a passing game effective in Scotland. Who knows? These players may surprise us, I've been wrong before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejtee Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Sadly I think people compare our game too much to other top leagues they see on TV like the English Prem, Serie A and Bundesliga. Yes our game isnt great, but much better than it was 15 years ago IMO. Will have to disagree with you on that as will most old firm fans. Our European results would also suggest we are worse and if you are talking TV I would seriously compare us to English league 1 matches. If I was not a fan(atic) I would use my time better on even a rainy Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Isn't it early to judge Hammil? Black I can understand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy2 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I would have thought having Skacel in the starting 11 would be essential if we want to play "football". Fair point. For all his deficiencies Mrowiec looked most comfortable, if that's the right word, with these tactics by always coming short to receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 We will not get the best out of players like Driver, Templeton and Suso if the back 4 plus the midfield 2 are passing the ball back and forward a dozen times before the ball is released forward. Just means that the defenders have plenty of time to cover them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 We will not get the best out of players like Driver, Templeton and Suso if the back 4 plus the midfield 2 are passing the ball back and forward a dozen times before the ball is released forward. Just means that the defenders have plenty of time to cover them. exactly, big fault of ours. We either don`t see the early ball or if we do, we don`t do it quick enough. Its about tempo and seeing things. In 06 we were excellent at that but then again we had the team for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
...a bit disco Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Very much this. We look absolutely static. Zal looks lost at times when he gets the ball to try and start something. Doesn't help that he ALSO stands still but that's another matter...... This was glaringly obvious on Thursday as well. If we hadn't went on to win comfortably then more might have been said on the matter. As it stands, it came home to roost today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 Almost exactly what I said (well, meant) leaving the ground today, the passing game is all fine and dandy and at times easy on the eye but in this league there are times you have to mix it up and you must be capable of doing that. Unfortunately we looked as slow as a pub team with these tactics (although they kept the ball from Motherwell for the most part until red card) and we were taking three or four touches to Barcelona's (sorry, Hibernian's) one. I'd like to give it time but have to agree that an upheavel of personnel looks like being required for it to work, and it's unlikely we could afford the personnel required to make a passing game effective in Scotland. Who knows? These players may surprise us, I've been wrong before! great mind think alike Shag how are you doing mate? But aye, its going to be a task for PS but i really think he can get certain individuals to progress on the passing and movement front, and if he is allowed a couple of signing we could possibly become more fluent. Thing is, we still should`nt be afraid to use our target man when he is back. Im in no way saying lump it before anyone starts, but using Kyle the way we know we can is invaluable. Im all for a varied, measured game. I don`t want to become predictable as alot of passing teams can become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wright1989 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 great mind think alike Shag how are you doing mate? But aye, its going to be a task for PS but i really think he can get certain individuals to progress on the passing and movement front, and if he is allowed a couple of signing we could possibly become more fluent. Thing is, we still should`nt be afraid to use our target man when he is back. Im in no way saying lump it before anyone starts, but using Kyle the way we know we can is invaluable. Im all for a varied, measured game. I don`t want to become predictable as alot of passing teams can become. Spot on about mixing it up. Why not do both things at the same time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Sergio basically called it right "Our players are running all around the pitch but with no ball, The basic things in football are what me must improve on " I think in time he will improve our teams performance going to take a while and will need a couple more new faces i expect , hopefully we are still in contention when it clicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 KICK IT INTO THE CHANNEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wright1989 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 KICK IT INTO THE CHANNEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurAxident Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Sadly for Scottish football I have not seen a decent team yet this season and the overall skill level is pretty poor. Mock if you please but I thought St Mirren have looked pretty good so far , could we be witnessing the new Kilmarnock ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Think i began a very similar thread 3-4 years ago. Not being rude, but lack of movement by the midfielders is not a new problem for Hearts. It's why we resort to hoofball as Plan B after about 20 minutes ususlly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yabadabadoo1874again Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Will have to disagree with you on that as will most old firm fans. Our European results would also suggest we are worse and if you are talking TV I would seriously compare us to English league 1 matches. If I was not a fan(atic) I would use my time better on even a rainy Sunday. Fair and reasonable, agree fully...standard is very poor : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowestjambo Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I always thought the fundamentals of football are to score more goals than you concede. Everything else is superfluous, does a route one goal count less than one that takes 20 passes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 I always thought the fundamentals of football are to score more goals than you concede. Everything else is superfluous, does a route one goal count less than one that takes 20 passes? How are you going to create and score goals? How are you going to defeat your opponents? Also when people say "football is a simple game" hate that cliche....its only easy if you have decent players who show the right application. And i wouldn`t say its easy anyway. Its a competitive sport where your opposition compete and make it hard, you have to work to get results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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