Hoofball under Jefferies

[N User]

I've noticed this phrase crop up the past few days.

 

Yes in the second half against Rangers and the 2nd half against Dundee Utd we lumped the ball up quite a bit.

 

Under JJ we've played some good football. Since he came in it's been quite clear that despite having a big man up top, he still wanted us playing good strong attacking football.

 

Case in point - first half against Rangers. We totally outplayed them, out passed them and dominated them.

We were rightfully jubilant the next day because of how promising it looked.

 

So lets be having none of this revisionist pish about constant hoofball.

[Johanes de Silentio]

I've been defending JJ over the last couple of days, but I have to say that the long ball to a 'target man' was a recurring tactic.

 

Quite a few times on Sunday, we looked pretty good when we were getting round the back and sides of Utd - it pissed me off that we didn't try that more often - especially with two wingers on the field.

 

We also had the opportunity to play the ball in to the feet of Sutton/Elliot a few times, but chose not to.

 

JJ & BB had many strengths, but tactics? Not so much.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

One thing I have read quite of bit of recently on Kickback is when plan A worked, it worked well, but when things were not going well, idea's were not really forthcoming and the ball started taking a bit of a bashing.

 

I don't really notice it much from my seat.

 

 

[TheBigO]

I actually agree that JJ and BB aren't the most tactically astute. But to accuse them of employing hoofball tactics is unfair imo.

 

I think they always want the team to get it down and play. The tactic is generally get the ball quickly to the danger men, but they like the ball on the deck.

 

The fact is that without a midfield who are willing to take the ball in and be confident enough to make things happen, you can't really do much more than miss them out. I'm 99% certain that each week Blackie is told to be the man to get the ball moving. The fact that our CHs and FBs tend to play long quite often is either Black or their fault.

 

Against Rangers last week, we passed them off the park first half. Second half, they pressed the game in and closed the spaces we'd been using in the first half (McCulloch sat in where Obua had been gettin a lot of success). We did the right thing in trying to feed it to Sutton - we weren't hitting aimless balls at his head - it was mainly in about chest height and he had to hold it up and wait for the support which would come as they'd been told not to sit in. Unfortunately Sutton let his man infront of him every time and I don't think held the ball once. Injuries meant we couldn't change him.

 

What I would say is that they could've done more to sort it in general. Last season, it was apparent to me by about March that the midfield needed freshened. Pala wasn't going to give us any more than Black or Mrowiec, so they needed to come up with something. Whether that was a young lad, a change of shape or whatever.

 

So basically, I think the team did generally try to play football under JJ but reverted to longer balls when the chips were down at times. You could often see his frustration at this.

 

Hoofball is inaccurate.

[mahgrassyshoes]

JJ, BB and GL always had us trying to play football. The problem was, if that didn't work to break a defence down the players panicked and started punting it to whoever was up from. Lacked patience and a creative midfield force.

[vintage1874]

I thought at times in the utd game we passed it about a fair bit, some nice moves in particular the zal pass to grainger. when things are going our way in games there was plenty of passing. However when we fell behind in games sure it has booted up the park to the striker not sure how much of this was down to JJ or panic setting in with the players.

I often feel kello hesitates when the opponents move breaks down a quick throw out to the likes of temps who do to get a move started before the other team can all get back into a postion, but instead he opts to wait for a boot up the pitch.

The revisionist view to JJ is unfair, after csaba the majority were praising him for his more attacking approach which afterall got us 3rd last year and with all the players fit would have got us somewhere this season.

[TheBigO]

JJ, BB and GL always had us trying to play football. The problem was, if that didn't work to break a defence down the players panicked and started punting it to whoever was up from. Lacked patience and a creative midfield force.

 

Sums it up pretty well Grassy. Pishing wi the cocks they had. I do sometimes wonder if they had other cocks available to them. Maybe a young lad coming in around March would have freshened things up and given the likes of Black a kick in the erse. Maybe we could have dropped Rudi deeper and demanded he got more involved (though he was carrying an injury). I dunno. I guess you need to be seeing the guys every day in training to knwo what they can really do.

 

I think Black was a massive source of frustration as they knew what he could do and it was exactly what we needed. Getting him to do it proved very difficult. Apparently they've never had to spend so much time on one player than they did with Blackie!!!

[Debut 4]

I always said the players have to share responsibility. Do you really think JJ goes in at HT saying "right, you`ve knocked it about well but lets just lump it up to Sutton/Kyle in the 2nd half" .......

 

Alot of the players lose discipline on the ball, the movement stops, the responsibility of showing for the ball and still wanting it stops and our defenders had a bad habit of picking the easy way out(which sopmetimes you do have to when its tight) when there was time to keep the ball and pass.

 

Yes, this all falls back to the manager to sort it out but JJ must have been pulling his hair out alot. One game that really stuck out last season was the horrendous first half v St Mirren when we went on to win 3-2.

 

All we done was lump it front to back for a big part but once we got it down in the 2nd it made a huge difference.

 

Football isn`t perfect, sometimes you do have to go long but the general outlook and discipline has to be trying to work it on the deck.

[DavieG]

Whether or not hoofball is accurate or not, I don't think we played anything like the style of play JJ produced in the first half of his first spell in charge. Perhaps the influence of Paul Hegarty was missed by JJ and Brown.

 

There is no doubt that we did play a lot of long ball stuff at times during his second spell in charge, and once Kyle got injured, the coaching staff didn't seem to have a plan B.

 

Kilmarnock certainly appeared to play a lot more attractively once he left.

 

I also feel that JJ and Brown didn't apppear to have the same fire in their bellies as they had the first time round, Sunday being a typical example, where they just seemed to let the game drift by. In the old days Brown in particular would go mental if things on the park weren't right.

 

Perhaps Vlad decided the pair had run their course and it was time for a change.

[vintage1874]

I always said the players have to share responsibility. Do you really think JJ goes in at HT saying "right, you`ve knocked it about well but lets just lump it up to Sutton/Kyle in the 2nd half" .......

 

Alot of the players lose discipline on the ball, the movement stops, the responsibility of showing for the ball and still wanting it stops and our defenders had a bad habit of picking the easy way out(which sopmetimes you do have to when its tight) when there was time to keep the ball and pass.

 

Yes, this all falls back to the manager to sort it out but JJ must have been pulling his hair out alot. One game that really stuck out last season was the horrendous first half v St Mirren when we went on to win 3-2.

 

All we done was lump it front to back for a big part but once we got it down in the 2nd it made a huge difference.

 

Football isn`t perfect, sometimes you do have to go long but the general outlook and discipline has to be trying to work it on the deck.

 

He made some good early subs that day robinson and driver I'm sure stevo was one of them and he scored and they turned the game. obua was terrible that day JJ was doing a fair bit of shouting first half (which I'll miss)

[troonmaroon]

I've noticed this phrase crop up the past few days.

 

Yes in the second half against Rangers and the 2nd half against Dundee Utd we lumped the ball up quite a bit.

 

Under JJ we've played some good football. Since he came in it's been quite clear that despite having a big man up top, he still wanted us playing good strong attacking football.

 

Case in point - first half against Rangers. We totally outplayed them, out passed them and dominated them.

We were rightfully jubilant the next day because of how promising it looked.

 

So lets be having none of this revisionist pish about constant hoofball.

 

Agreed! Just read the thread on the likelyhood of Sergio's desire to see a passing game and saw a number of references to "hoofball". Came out thinking about kicking off a thread on it but glad to see this one already!

 

Under JJ et al we've sometimes gotten to lumping it up the park in desperation i.e. towards the end of a match but all (Scottish) teams do that at times!!? I think our efforts to play positively had been immeasurably improved by JJ post-Csaba and there had been plenty of games where we've played teams off the park with the ball ON the grass. How could Temps have broken through in the way that he did if we set out to play it long all the time...?! And what about Skacel's play? A (much) lesser extent, Suso's?

 

Ironically, we did probably play more long-ball (desperate) stuff since KK got injured...?! And we know how successful that was compared to the earlier part of last season!

[davieholt]

I always said the players have to share responsibility. Do you really think JJ goes in at HT saying "right, you`ve knocked it about well but lets just lump it up to Sutton/Kyle in the 2nd half" .......

 

Alot of the players lose discipline on the ball, the movement stops, the responsibility of showing for the ball and still wanting it stops and our defenders had a bad habit of picking the easy way out(which sopmetimes you do have to when its tight) when there was time to keep the ball and pass.

 

Yes, this all falls back to the manager to sort it out but JJ must have been pulling his hair out alot. One game that really stuck out last season was the horrendous first half v St Mirren when we went on to win 3-2.

 

All we done was lump it front to back for a big part but once we got it down in the 2nd it made a huge difference.

 

Football isn`t perfect, sometimes you do have to go long but the general outlook and discipline has to be trying to work it on the deck.

 

 

You don't have to go back as far as the St Mirren game.

 

On Sunday, in the second half, Eggert, under no pressure, chose to punt a ball up to Elliott who was being marked by Kenneth ! I have no idea what Eggert was hoping for. This had to be one of the most unintelligent decisions made in that game and JJ must, indeed, have been tearing his hair out.

[mahgrassyshoes]

I thought at times in the utd game we passed it about a fair bit, some nice moves in particular the zal pass to grainger. when things are going our way in games there was plenty of passing. However when we fell behind in games sure it has booted up the park to the striker not sure how much of this was down to JJ or panic setting in with the players.

I often feel kello hesitates when the opponents move breaks down a quick throw out to the likes of temps who do to get a move started before the other team can all get back into a postion, but instead he opts to wait for a boot up the pitch.

The revisionist view to JJ is unfair, after csaba the majority were praising him for his more attacking approach which afterall got us 3rd last year and with all the players fit would have got us somewhere this season.

 

He's done that quite a few times in the last 18 months coming out from defence and playing wallace, grainger and very occasionally temps in with that through ball between the centre defender and the fullback. I was disappointed we never made more use of it. It's the kind of pass i love trying to play in football. Need players that understand whats happening for it to work though. Should definitely have been worked on in training. (not saying it was or wasn't).

 

Sums it up pretty well Grassy. Pishing wi the cocks they had. I do sometimes wonder if they had other cocks available to them. Maybe a young lad coming in around March would have freshened things up and given the likes of Black a kick in the erse. Maybe we could have dropped Rudi deeper and demanded he got more involved (though he was carrying an injury). I dunno. I guess you need to be seeing the guys every day in training to knwo what they can really do.

 

I think Black was a massive source of frustration as they knew what he could do and it was exactly what we needed. Getting him to do it proved very difficult. Apparently they've never had to spend so much time on one player than they did with Blackie!!!

 

I quite believe that. For 30 minutes on Sunday he looked like he was that player, but then he faded out. I must admit that under JJ blacks temperment improved. When he first came in he woudl have lost the plot a bit after challenges that the number 20 put in on him at the weekend and the murray challenge in the new year derby, but in those games he got his head down and played the football and stamped his authority on the game (for a while at least!)

 

Edit: Also agree with the comment about a youngster coming in around March time. Robinson would have freshened up with his energy and ability to do the basics well and, from the snippets i've seen and heard, Holt would have freshened us up with his vision and ability. Alas, it could have been JJ's downfall. Maybe Vlad wouldn't have been so quick to swing the axe if he was seeing youth introduced and we were still getting the same results.

[Victorian]

for hoofball - read the team simply running out of ideas and opting for the lazy and ineffective ball or the wrong ball played into a blind alley. it certainly doesn't infer that jim jefferies had a deliberate policy of his team looking to play it long.

 

all the passing in the world wont have the desired effect without something else which is even more important... good movement off the ball. when rangers and celtic have had some of their better footballing sides, they have always had players who move well. i've watched celtic on numerous occasions when they looked like they could waltz through us at will. because there's always someone making a good run or someone making themselves available for a pass that will progress the move.

 

i don't think it's something that can be instilled in a team in a short space of time but i sure as hell hope sergio tries anyway.

[vintage1874]

Whether or not hoofball is accurate or not, I don't think we played anything like the style of play JJ produced in the first half of his first spell in charge. Perhaps the influence of Paul Hegarty was missed by JJ and Brown.

 

There is no doubt that we did play a lot of long ball stuff at times during his second spell in charge, and once Kyle got injured, the coaching staff didn't seem to have a plan B.

 

Kilmarnock certainly appeared to play a lot more attractively once he left.

 

I also feel that JJ and Brown didn't apppear to have the same fire in their bellies as they had the first time round, Sunday being a typical example, where they just seemed to let the game drift by. In the old days Brown in particular would go mental if things on the park weren't right.

 

Perhaps Vlad decided the pair had run their course and it was time for a change.

 

Things started to go a bit wrong when kyle was injured, transfer window was open we really should have brought in a striker.

Its all down to players I think players like eremenko made all the difference to Killie. First time round for JJ our midfield was strong. The midfield has been a problem for a while since burno left

Mellowing with age, you could be right

[Debut 4]

You don't have to go back as far as the St Mirren game.

 

On Sunday, in the second half, Eggert, under no pressure, chose to punt a ball up to Elliott who was being marked by Kenneth ! I have no idea what Eggert was hoping for. This had to be one of the most unintelligent decisions made in that game and JJ must, indeed, have been tearing his hair out.

Jonsson is one of the worst offenders. His use of the ball is terrible just now, or has been for ages, and many times he had the chance to play it down the right hand side to feet to someone in plenty space but A..never seen it or B...just chose to launch it...

 

poor awareness.

[vintage1874]

for hoofball - read the team simply running out of ideas and opting for the lazy and ineffective ball or the wrong ball played into a blind alley. it certainly doesn't infer that jim jefferies had a deliberate policy of his team looking to play it long.

 

all the passing in the world wont have the desired effect without something else which is even more important... good movement off the ball. when rangers and celtic have had some of their better footballing sides, they have always had players who move well. i've watched celtic on numerous occasions when they looked like they could waltz through us at will. because there's always someone making a good run or someone making themselves available for a pass that will progress the move.

 

i don't think it's something that can be instilled in a team in a short space of time but i sure as hell hope sergio tries anyway.

 

I hope sergio will get to bring in the a decent midfielder other wise it could be silk purse and sow's lug time.

[Victorian]

I hope sergio will get to bring in the a decent midfielder other wise it could be silk purse and sow's lug time.

 

yeah, that would be an important part of the jigsaw but i really do think we have enough offensive minded players already at the club who would benefit from being given the confidence to express themselves. having a really good player dictating play in the middle is one thing, but if the other players around him are all standing about like they're waiting for a bus then it's wasted somewhat.

 

jefferies had them all moving about and terrifying teams for that all too short spell last season, and they can be shown the way again.

[vintage1874]

He's done that quite a few times in the last 18 months coming out from defence and playing wallace, grainger and very occasionally temps in with that through ball between the centre defender and the fullback. I was disappointed we never made more use of it. It's the kind of pass i love trying to play in football. Need players that understand whats happening for it to work though. Should definitely have been worked on in training. (not saying it was or wasn't).

 

Aye it was a treat, I used to enjoy the wallace and driver moves down the left. I agree with robinson he a a good game against st mirren last season must be due a wee chance this season.

 

I

[Jambof3tornado]

Players revert to hoofball tactics when they can't think of anything else to do. JJ was no master tactician but to blame him for the hoofball is wrong.

[TheBigO]

Couple of references to Eggert. One of the main reasons Barr doesn't get a game is because of his use, or lack there of, of the ball. Panic - punt. Panic - punt. They can barely get the guy to even try to pass it! And when he does it's invariably the wrong ball. Just a total bag od nerves.

 

As for Eggert though. Two things a defender needs when on the ball:

 

a) a midfielder dropping in and taking it from him

2) a forward showing for it and able to take the ball in

 

If he has neither of these, it'll be punt to the attacker's head. Often when an attacker is feeding off long balls, it's his own fault. I haven't seen much from Sutton to make me think he exactly creates much space or is adept at holding the ball in. That said, I haven't seen much of Sutton, so that, in the longterm may be unfair.

 

Wasn't there on Sat, but did Eggy have the two things above available to him?

 

The best coach I've ever had had it drilled into us what each player's ontheball options were and in which order to look for them. So at left back (I hated playing leftback!), I looked first to centre midfield, then to my winger, then the centre forward, the centre half, goalie and finally it was a ball into the corner. It was so ingrained in us that it made it easy. You also knew by who had the ball who should be looking for it. Can't imagine it's much different at the top level.

 

I know JJ and BB like to play percentage football which means when a winger has the ball, he shouldn't have to look in the box, he knows what area to hit. If the centre forward isn't there, it's his fault. It's an effective tool when the players are well drilled and stick to the drill. The sticking to the drill bit, I think, is where our players fell down!!

[hughesie27]

There is no question whatsoever that we were guilty far too many times of chunting the ball up (an usually across) the park towards a winger who 9/10 times would do bugger all with it as the balls simply bounced out for a throw. Those who have been to Tynecastle recently will agree.

[Debut 4]

Couple of references to Eggert. One of the main reasons Barr doesn't get a game is because of his use, or lack there of, of the ball. Panic - punt. Panic - punt. They can barely get the guy to even try to pass it! And when he does it's invariably the wrong ball. Just a total bag od nerves.

 

As for Eggert though. Two things a defender needs when on the ball:

 

a) a midfielder dropping in and taking it from him

2) a forward showing for it and able to take the ball in

 

If he has neither of these, it'll be punt to the attacker's head. Often when an attacker is feeding off long balls, it's his own fault. I haven't seen much from Sutton to make me think he exactly creates much space or is adept at holding the ball in. That said, I haven't seen much of Sutton, so that, in the longterm may be unfair.

 

Wasn't there on Sat, but did Eggy have the two things above available to him?

 

The best coach I've ever had had it drilled into us what each player's ontheball options were and in which order to look for them. So at left back (I hated playing leftback!), I looked first to centre midfield, then to my winger, then the centre forward, the centre half, goalie and finally it was a ball into the corner. It was so ingrained in us that it made it easy. You also knew by who had the ball who should be looking for it. Can't imagine it's much different at the top level.

 

I know JJ and BB like to play percentage football which means when a winger has the ball, he shouldn't have to look in the box, he knows what area to hit. If the centre forward isn't there, it's his fault. It's an effective tool when the players are well drilled and stick to the drill. The sticking to the drill bit, I think, is where our players fell down!!

I remember on at least 3, 4 occasions on Sunday where McGowan and Templeton(who had switched sides with Novi) pushed up into plenty space on the right and Jonsson never played it. They weren`t being tightly marked or there was no sign of a Utd player getting over quick enough.

 

I don`t know what it is but i think the guy is going backwards in terms of his use of the ball.

[Jambof3tornado]

Talk about the blame game.

[Buffalo Bill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-onNoFzoJw

[N User]

I am not saying that under JJ we played great football all the time.

 

 

 

We did not however play "hoofball" all the time and it was clear that was not his tactical aim.

[hughesie27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-onNoFzoJw

All that video confirms is that we should get shot of Clum asap.

[troonmaroon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-onNoFzoJw

 

 

Exactly, hoofball, hoofball, hoofball...! Nonsense.. Great example BB.

[TheBigO]

I remember on at least 3, 4 occasions on Sunday where McGowan and Templeton(who had switched sides with Novi) pushed up into plenty space on the right and Jonsson never played it. They weren`t being tightly marked or there was no sign of a Utd player getting over quick enough.

 

I don`t know what it is but i think the guy is going backwards in terms of his use of the ball.

 

Not sure he was ever a great user of the ball but maybe one too many misplaced easy enough passes has rocked his confidence and he isn't willing to try to make anything other than standard 10 yard passes to his CH partner or the long ball. He's full of enthusiasm and dig. I think getting a settled place in the team in one position could even help his passing as it could be confidence. Does he merit that chance? I'm on the fence. It depends on Webster. He's clearly 1st choice CH when fit, but when fit is the thing. I'd be tempted to let Eggy have a run at CH. New guy will have his own thoughts I suppose.

 

I am not saying that under JJ we played great football all the time.

 

 

 

We did not however play "hoofball" all the time and it was clear that was not his tactical aim.

 

This

[henry]

JJ wanted the ball into box as often as he could get it at any cost and this was bad to watch, every freekick

from every angle got launched into the box. I have hardly seen a Hearts team retain the ball for any length of

time hopefully this will change and we can play a bit of football but i fear we dont have good enough footballing midfielders to do that.

[Eckauskas]

Hearts playing the high ball isn't something I'd associate with Jefferies.

 

It's something we've been doing as long as I remember.