JJ v the OF

[Rudy T]

Despite Saturdays team debacle there still remains a fact that can?t be overlooked - another heavy defeat in Glasgow under JJ.

 

I think he?s a good manager, I think he?s right for Hearts at this time and no matter what happens in the next two games it?s been a decent season?. 3rd or 4th but no cup run, not great but the improvements are there and we have missed some key players.

 

However, we can never win the league or even split the OF until he sorts out his abysmal record v?s the OF.

 

His overall record against the old firm give or take cup games is lost 40 won 12 and drawn 8. Break that down across his 7 seasons that?s 120 points in total which gives you an average of 17 points a season lost out of 24, more frightening is the 131 goals we?ve shipped ? 18 per season or 2.3 per game ? so under the current set up we need to score 3 goals every time we play them ? never going to happen.

 

Compare this to Butchers record at ICT and there is a winning formula somewhere out there to get points from them.

[shaun.lawson]

Despite Saturdays team debacle there still remains a fact that can?t be overlooked - another heavy defeat in Glasgow under JJ.

 

I think he?s a good manager, I think he?s right for Hearts at this time and no matter what happens in the next two games it?s been a decent season?. 3rd or 4th but no cup run, not great but the improvements are there and we have missed some key players.

 

However, we can never win the league or even split the OF until he sorts out his abysmal record v?s the OF.

 

His overall record against the old firm give or take cup games is lost 40 won 12 and drawn 8. Break that down across his 7 seasons that?s 120 points in total which gives you an average of 17 points a season lost out of 24, more frightening is the 131 goals we?ve shipped ? 18 per season or 2.3 per game ? so under the current set up we need to score 3 goals every time we play them ? never going to happen.

 

Compare this to Butchers record at ICT and there is a winning formula somewhere out there to get points from them.

 

ICT have taken six points off the OF this season. Hearts have taken six points off the OF this season. What's the difference, please?

 

And you're right, we can't win the league or split the OF... until we have a squad capable of doing so! At present, we're nowhere near that point - and blaming JJ for that is quite ridiculous.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

I'm sure Butcher's record will be a consolation to the fans of his many clubs when JJ's grand kids and Jambos all wax lyrical about the 1998 season Scottish Cup win and the many Cup finals he has reached.

 

Jim once said that if you beat everyone else then the OF derbies will take care of everything else- or something to that effect... A few third places, A Scottish Cup championship win, many finals and a sensational derby record more than make up for previous failures against two teams ten times our size for me.

 

[Hickups]

You've not taken into account that most of JJ's games as Hearts boss against the OF were in a time when the OF had players like Laudrup, Gazza, Larsson, Di Canio ect.....

[bighusref]

Only one manager in the history of Heart Of Midlothian Football Club has won more games in those two stadia.

[Debut 4]

Not this again...

[Harry Palmer]

I never knew that...

[Diadora Van Basten]

I think that hearts should use csaba in an advisory role on tactics. Jj is a good motivator but on a number of occasions he has shown to be tactically naive.

 

As far as I am aware csaba is living in Edinburgh kicking his heels. He loves tactics and with jj there to stop his excesses could prove to be a real asset.

[kingdannyb]

A few third places, A Scottish Cup championship win, many finals and a sensational derby record more than make up for previous failures against two teams ten times our size for me.

 

Sod that - if that's all we have to look forward to for the next fifty years then I'm not going back.

I think we're big enough to win the title if the owners, players and management show some belief.

Otherwise we're just the best of the losers, but losers nonetheless.

[Debut 4]

I think that hearts should use csaba in an advisory role on tactics. Jj is a good motivator but on a number of occasions he has shown to be tactically naive.

 

As far as I am aware csaba is living in Edinburgh kicking his heels. He loves tactics and with jj there to stop his excesses could prove to be a real asset.

While i hold Csaba in high regard for getting us third his tactics didn`t do so well the season after(09-10) and JJ inherited the same squad.

 

JJ inpsired better individual performances and we looked much better in the latter half of last season.

 

You could argue Csaba had a better overall squad in 08/09 but did he win the league? How many games did he win in Glasgow? None. He did get 3 draws. We played Rangers 3 times at Ibrox losing twice and getting a creditable draw.

 

We drew twice at Parkhead, one on the last day when the season was over. Still didn`t win though which JJ gets criticised about.

 

At home we won once v Rangers and got a draw v Celtic. We`ve won twice this season at home v the OF.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Sandi,

 

Did you actually watch csaba's petted lip trip up an entire Tynecastle support as we ate away into Zagreb's lead at Tynie? The f****er sat there with his face tripping him and never left his seat as we roared our players on. I do not want Csaba anywhere nnear my club again as long as I live dude!

 

If Jim is able to continue working under our -admittedly neurotic- club ownership then I see success on the horizon... Personally, I want the Slaver nowhere near my club again as long as I live. JJ will have done more than Laszlo by seeing this season out imo in his second term than Csaba had to offer antway... Oh and both he and Vlad have been in place for seperate Scottish Cup wins in my life-tome, what has Csaba done? Overseen an eye-bleeding third place finish in the SPL with shit football, despite a team that contained Aguiar, Driver, Wallace, Karipidis, Kello, Berra, Zaliukas and a fair few signings of his own over two seasons!?!

 

Nah **** that mate!

[Vlad-Stupid]

Sod that - if that's all we have to look forward to for the next fifty years then I'm not going back.

I think we're big enough to win the title if the owners, players and management show some belief.

Otherwise we're just the best of the losers, but losers nonetheless.

Money talks I'm afraid. Unless we can match the OF's transfer kitty and wages, third is the best we can do. The only way we'll do better than the OF is if they are honking ie 2006. Every Jambo would love to see us sustain a challenge for 36 games but them's the facts.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

KingdannyB,

 

We have ten times smaller a budget than the OF but you demand league titles? FFS!

 

Jim has run the OF close on a tenth -being generous- of their budget and yet you think he is a failure in League terms? Shit man, we ran them close in 98 and won the cup after a fair few decent cup runs before that... Csaba has done **** all.

 

If Vlad and JJ can reach an even ground with who's doing what then IMO, we have a cup winning manager and an awner who paid the money behind another Cup success masterminding the future success of a club that has out competed every other non-OF team for about 20 years.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Csaba apart, I'd be willing to bet that JJ's record against the Old Firm is probably on a par with managers from the past (Dave??? ) or not much worse than them to be honest, and I reckon seeing as Csaba is looking for a job that we should draft him in for the Old Firm games and give JJ the afternoon off, and then give Csaba the rest of the season off whilst JJ manages the team against everyone else

[Jambos1983]

Money talks I'm afraid. Unless we can match the OF's transfer kitty and wages, third is the best we can do. The only way we'll do better than the OF is if they are honking ie 2006. Every Jambo would love to see us sustain a challenge for 36 games but them's the facts.

Exactly! Get a grip. With rangers new owner it is likely they will be spending a few million as will Celtic. We have no chance until that stops or we can do the same. Depressing but true. That's partly why Scottish football is so rotten imo same old same old every season. Spanish league is similar money talks

[andrew]

I think with the whole Csaba vs JJ OF record a lot of it comes down to the style of football we played in the games outwith the OF.

 

Csaba like is teams to be well organised, defensive and hit teams on the counter attack. This suited us nicely when it came to playing either half of the weegies.

 

JJ on the other hand prefers to attack and play a more expansive game. So when we come to play the OF games we either still to our normal game plan and get humped by a team with better players or try and play a completely different style to what we're used to and get beaten just as heavily.

 

The main issue for me isn't the heavy defeats to the OF, it's the amount of points we've dropped this season at home to team we should be hammering. I do think only going with one man up front to accomodate Skacel is a big problem.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Smithy,

 

I agree... And yet the critics would have you believe we should be consistently challenging for the title??

 

Even an optimistic soul like you says that we can expect only third... And yet who is our only manager in the last 20 years to not only win a Scottish Cup and reach a couple of finals but also run 10 in a row chasing RFC and Fergie McCann's New revived tim tean to within three weeks of a league championship?

 

Seriously chaps! This is JJ's first full season back home and he has almost secured third while managing a sustained challenge to the OF for most of the season! Let's wait and see what happens if he amd Vlad reach a wee understanding over the coming season... Between the capabilities possed by the two men, this is our best ever chance of something extra special, IMO.

[FTH]

Every Jambo would love to see us sustain a challenge for 36 games but them's the facts.

 

What about the other 2 games? Will we have won the league with them to spare or have we had a s***e start to the season then kicked on from match 3 onwards?

[Harry Palmer]

Sir Jim got it correct in the only match that mattered against the Blue Arsecheek...... he changed it and it worked.

[Ray Gin]

While i hold Csaba in high regard for getting us third his tactics didn`t do so well the season after(09-10) and JJ inherited the same squad.

 

JJ inpsired better individual performances and we looked much better in the latter half of last season.

 

You could argue Csaba had a better overall squad in 08/09 but did he win the league? How many games did he win in Glasgow? None. He did get 3 draws. We played Rangers 3 times at Ibrox losing twice and getting a creditable draw.

 

We drew twice at Parkhead, one on the last day when the season was over. Still didn`t win though which JJ gets criticised about.

 

At home we won once v Rangers and got a draw v Celtic. We`ve won twice this season at home v the OF.

 

We beat Celtic 2-0 at Parkhead in the League Cup with Csaba at the helm.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Ray,

 

We did manage that one result, fair enough... What else did Csaba do though? Not very much IMO.

[bighusref]

Only one manager in the history of Heart Of Midlothian Football Club has won more games in those two stadia.

 

AYE?

Only one manager you say? That one must surely be Tommy Walker, but, are you saying that no manager in the last forty five years has more wins at Ibrox and Parkhead than Jefferies, yet we are having a go at him?

Surely not.

[Paolo]

We beat Celtic 2-0 at Parkhead in the League Cup with Csaba at the helm.

 

We also beat Celtic at home in the league - a Bouzid header won it, I think.

 

I would settle for having Csaba for Old Firm games and Jefferies for the others.

[Vlad-Stupid]

What about the other 2 games? Will we have won the league with them to spare or have we had a s***e start to the season then kicked on from match 3 onwards?

Sorry, hit the wrong key, thank god I didn't make any spelling mistakes

[Drylaw Hearts]

AYE?

Only one manager you say? That one must surely be Tommy Walker, but, are you saying that no manager in the last forty five years has more wins at Ibrox and Parkhead than Jefferies, yet we are having a go at him?

Surely not.

 

I hear you bh.

 

[bighusref]

I hear you bh.

 

 

Rudy T needs to listen, dude.

[Hearts Heritage]

Csaba apart, I'd be willing to bet that JJ's record against the Old Firm is probably on a par with managers from the past (Dave??? ) or not much worse than them to be honest, and I reckon seeing as Csaba is looking for a job that we should draft him in for the Old Firm games and give JJ the afternoon off, and then give Csaba the rest of the season off whilst JJ manages the team against everyone else

 

You'd lose that bet.

 

6 or more games vs the OF. 'Pts%' based on 2 points for a win 1 for a draw.

 

manager_group G W D L Pts%

Tommy McLean 9 4 3 2 61.11%

David Pratt 7 3 2 2 57.14%

Anatoly Korobochka 7 3 1 3 50.00%

Tommy Walker 90 32 19 39 46.11%

Committee 47 17 6 24 42.55%

Csaba Laszlo 13 3 5 5 42.31%

William Waugh 22 6 6 10 40.91%

David McLean 43 13 7 23 38.37%

Frank Moss 18 4 5 9 36.11%

Valdas Ivanauskas 7 2 1 4 35.71%

John McCartney 41 10 9 22 35.37%

Peter Fairley 13 2 5 6 34.62%

Alex MacDonald 69 14 18 37 33.33%

Sandy Clark 9 1 4 4 33.33%

Bobby Seith 16 4 2 10 31.25%

William McCartney 73 13 17 43 29.45%

William Esplin Ormond 9 2 1 6 27.78%

Joe Jordan 26 5 4 17 26.92%

Jim Jefferies 59 11 8 40 25.42%

John Harvey 23 2 5 16 19.57%

John Hagart 25 3 3 19 18.00%

Bobby Moncur 9 1 1 7 16.67%

John Robertson 6 1 0 5 16.67%

James McGhee 7 0 2 5 14.29%

Craig Levein 34 2 5 27 13.24%

[Debut 4]

Smithy,

 

I agree... And yet the critics would have you believe we should be consistently challenging for the title??

 

Even an optimistic soul like you says that we can expect only third... And yet who is our only manager in the last 20 years to not only win a Scottish Cup and reach a couple of finals but also run 10 in a row chasing RFC and Fergie McCann's New revived tim tean to within three weeks of a league championship?

 

Seriously chaps! This is JJ's first full season back home and he has almost secured third while managing a sustained challenge to the OF for most of the season! Let's wait and see what happens if he amd Vlad reach a wee understanding over the coming season... Between the capabilities possed by the two men, this is our best ever chance of something extra special, IMO.

 

You`ve been lavishing praise on me Mothy but that is a great post in a nutshell. I`ve argued tooth and nail on various "JJ`s not got it" threads but many just don`t see the light.

 

Ok, we can all moan about that last hurdle, that last jump(last few games of 98) but how many managers have got us to that point in the first place over our history? To actually be genuinely challenging?

 

It`s obviously not enough for some. We all want more, we`ve all got a strong desire and belief Hearts can do the biggy one day but realism kicks in too when you realise we don`t challenge nearly enough and we should appreciate when we get a manager who maybe could realise our dream.

 

[Debut 4]

We beat Celtic 2-0 at Parkhead in the League Cup with Csaba at the helm.

1-0. The 2-0 was under Frail. The point was league games RG.

 

We also beat Celtic at home in the league - a Bouzid header won it, I think.

 

I would settle for having Csaba for Old Firm games and Jefferies for the others.

 

 

If i can be nit picky SS, we got pis sed on that day and won. Fair do`s btw, id take that all the time because its about winning but Csaba`s style wasn`t fullproof as some make out.

 

Sitting tight and counter attacking means you should limit the chances the opposition had. In both the 1-0 cup win at Parkhead and the said 2-1 we got away with murder. That isn`t a nice tight counter attacking system.

[Rudy T]

ICT have taken six points off the OF this season. Hearts have taken six points off the OF this season. What's the difference, please?

 

Difference is they have only lost twice to the old firm - won 1 drawn 3, we have won two and been destroyed in the rest - bar one game at Ibrox (although we didn't really threaten) and a bottle crash at tynie, and I'd regard us as a better team than ICT.

 

The point is, JJ is unable to consistently pick up points against the OF across a season, or even look like we can hold our own in Glasgow. Yet when the players come out the tunnel against Hibs we look invincible, I know the OF and Hibs are light years apart in terms of ability but we seem to lack motivation or belief against the OF (bar Celtic at home we always seem up for that, although I think the atmosphere plays a big part in that)