The ever increasing demise of our game.

[givememychoice]

There are many reasons why scottish football is heading on an ever declining spiral.

 

1. Over exposure of non scottish games. Over this weekend and the coming days you can see liverpool v newcastle, arsenal v man utd, Lazio v Juventus, Man Utd v Schalke 04, Barcelona V Real Madrid, Benfica v Braga, Roma v AC Milan, Inter v Fiorentina. or tomorrow you could watch St Mirren V Hamilton..

 

2. As a result, more scottish people are following "foreign" teams. Playing football last monday down at the porty pitz, on our pitch and the one next to us, I was the only one who was wearing a scottish team top. There were more barcelona ones, and others such as argentina, spain etc. (one of our contingent was wearing an AC Milan top, but he is italian!)

 

3. European competitions are designed around getting money to the big teams. No longer do random teams get far in europe. In 1990/91, if any team won 5 European Cup ties (over 2 legs) in a row, they were champions. The draws were unseeded. With only the champions getting in, the entrants varied far more than now. With no seeding, you could find a match like 1979s Nottingham forrest (english champions) knocking out Liverpool (european champions) in the first round, while the mighty Arges Pitesti, Dunadlk, Vejle and Omonia all got to the following round.

 

4. No reserve league/anything beyond u19 league. Hit 19 and if you havent made it, you probably wont. A lot of teenagers finding their careers finished with no real options.

 

5. The split. With relatively few meaningless easy games post split, there is less chance of blooding youngsters. Would you risk blooding youth v the old firm?

 

6. They want to reduce the league to 10, meaning less youth introductions.

 

7. The league is at its most uncompetitive in its history.

 

8. A league where teams play each other 3/4 times while the leagues rated higher than ours play each other twice.

 

9. An FA more concerned with placating the 2 big teams than seeking to have its on authority on the interest of the game as a whole.

[Eckauskas]

Yesterday, Craig Thomson getting booked for booting the ball into touch was a clear indication of why this is a joke league.

[Tazio]

To me the biggest problem, and one that we won't see the full result of for years, is the Skyfan phenomenon.

 

Kids (and a lot of adults, including my brother) have adopted an English EPL team and stopped attending Scottish games, or even watching them.

 

There is a whole new generation that want a Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc top for christmas. The OF will continue to get kids following them due to "family tradition" but the other teams in the league are suffering. As are a lot of lower league regional teams in England.

[Chris Benoit]

Summed up perfectly. Now the question is are the powers that be so stupid that they aren't aware of the points you made or do they just not care?

[Eckauskas]

Price has to be a factor too.

 

My West Ham supporting mate is travelling down to London to see West Ham's last home game against Sunderland. Two fairly big Premiership sides.

 

The cost of his ticket? ?20.

 

We'll pay more than that to go to Tannadice.

[Tazio]

Price has to be a factor too.

 

My West Ham supporting mate is travelling down to London to see West Ham's last home game against Sunderland. Two fairly big Premiership sides.

 

The cost of his ticket? ?20.

 

We'll pay more than that to go to Tannadice.

 

That is way off the norm for the EPL. The last time I went to White Hart Lane it was ?48.

[heartsfc_fan]

Price has to be a factor too.

 

My West Ham supporting mate is travelling down to London to see West Ham's last home game against Sunderland. Two fairly big Premiership sides.

 

The cost of his ticket? ?20.

 

We'll pay more than that to go to Tannadice.

 

?20?! Not bad at all.

 

Taking in the Newcastle v Birmingham game next weekend. Not sitting in the cheapest seats, but not the "expensive bit". Tickets ?30 each.

[Eckauskas]

That is way off the norm for the EPL. The last time I went to White Hart Lane it was ?48.

 

Probably just some kind of deal he got.

 

But he did pay ?35 for a ticket in the away end at Villa last season.

 

Nearly double the price, but when you consider the gulf of class between the two games.

[world_3]

There are many reasons why scottish football is heading on an ever declining spiral.

 

1. Over exposure of non scottish games. Over this weekend and the coming days you can see liverpool v newcastle, arsenal v man utd, Lazio v Juventus, Man Utd v Schalke 04, Barcelona V Real Madrid, Benfica v Braga, Roma v AC Milan, Inter v Fiorentina. or tomorrow you could watch St Mirren V Hamilton..

 

2. As a result, more scottish people are following "foreign" teams. Playing football last monday down at the porty pitz, on our pitch and the one next to us, I was the only one who was wearing a scottish team top. There were more barcelona ones, and others such as argentina, spain etc. (one of our contingent was wearing an AC Milan top, but he is italian!)

 

3. European competitions are designed around getting money to the big teams. No longer do random teams get far in europe. In 1990/91, if any team won 5 European Cup ties (over 2 legs) in a row, they were champions. The draws were unseeded. With only the champions getting in, the entrants varied far more than now. With no seeding, you could find a match like 1979s Nottingham forrest (english champions) knocking out Liverpool (european champions) in the first round, while the mighty Arges Pitesti, Dunadlk, Vejle and Omonia all got to the following round.

 

4. No reserve league/anything beyond u19 league. Hit 19 and if you havent made it, you probably wont. A lot of teenagers finding their careers finished with no real options.

 

5. The split. With relatively few meaningless easy games post split, there is less chance of blooding youngsters. Would you risk blooding youth v the old firm?

 

6. They want to reduce the league to 10, meaning less youth introductions.

 

7. The league is at its most uncompetitive in its history.

 

8. A league where teams play each other 3/4 times while the leagues rated higher than ours play each other twice.

 

9. An FA more concerned with placating the 2 big teams than seeking to have its on authority on the interest of the game as a whole.

 

I think 1 and 2 were always there to an extent over the last 30 years. No arguing with 3-9 though. I'd add 10. Standard of football is really really bad.

[Tazio]

Probably just some kind of deal he got.

 

But he did pay ?35 for a ticket in the away end at Villa last season.

 

Nearly double the price, but when you consider the gulf of class between the two games.

 

These are the Spurs ticket prices for this season. Spurs are quite pricey but they can afford to be as they have a big waiting list for ST's and way more demand than seats for every game.

Spurs tickets

[Smack]

The reason Scottish football is pish is the lack of provisions we have for youngsters, and shocking coaching.

 

Anyone who has a boy that plays football could tell you about the state of the pitches they have to play on. The most uneven pieces of ground you'll ever see. What chance have they got when the perfectly weighted pass bounces up over a mound and evades the boy running on to it. As a result the ball gets pumped up the park where the biggest lads, who have been deployed at centre half regardless of ability, mop things up by punting the ball out the park...cue a round of applause from those watching(!).

 

The number of players that have slipped through the net due to "not being big enough" is embarrasing. Zander Diamond wouldn't have made it into a pub team in Spain. 3G and 4G helps, but there aren't enough of them.

[givememychoice]

I think 1 and 2 were always there to an extent over the last 30 years. No arguing with 3-9 though. I'd add 10. Standard of football is really really bad.

I would argue with it being over the last 30 years...sky sports only started broadcasting in 1990 and it was largely this that was the catalyst. Even then it took a few years to ramp up. Now with ESPN (Setanta) there is non stop football that even 10 years ago didnt exist. Its only since the turn of the century that we have been able to enjoy sky interactive (and thus such things as match choice for champions league games).

People have always had an interest in the very best, and yes, days gone by would see people in argentina tops etc, but what has changed is the dearth of home team tops.

Scottish football isnt that much worse in many ways than it has been for a long time. The issue is we can see better stuff all the time..

 

I would add a 10 on to my list - ticket prices

and 11. poor coaching.

[Eckauskas]

Nice generalisation of coaches there.

 

In 4 years of coaching kids football, I never once told them to 'lump it up the park'.

[Flogel98]

Price has to be a factor too.

 

My West Ham supporting mate is travelling down to London to see West Ham's last home game against Sunderland. Two fairly big Premiership sides.

 

The cost of his ticket? ?20.

 

We'll pay more than that to go to Tannadice.

 

I went to see AC Milan play Sampdoria a couple of weeks back and only paid 30 euros a ticket. That was for the middle tier. Top tier was only 21 euros.

[kingantti1874]

Good post, Scottish football needs to differentiate itself to ensure our children continue to maintain an interest. Summer football is a big part of the answer - need to play at a different time to the big leagues as the kids are more interests in watching man arsenal or man city west ham than they are in the spl... Can't blame them - the product and the quality on offer is Piss poor

[Shaggy2]

Good post, Scottish football needs to differentiate itself to ensure our children continue to maintain an interest. Summer football is a big part of the answer - need to play at a different time to the big leagues as the kids are more interests in watching man arsenal or man city west ham than they are in the spl... Can't blame them - the product and the quality on offer is Piss poor

I've said this since I went U14 (25 years ago). When I was 13 none of my close mates played so I opted to go to Hearts games with them instead of playing. I was quite an ordinary player but I often wonder if we've lost REAL talent because of this. When I got to men's football I played Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon so I could see Hearts. The Sunday stuff got knocked on the head not long after the SPL started. It was a Hearts supporters team and between Sky and the Thursday UEFA Cup ties (meaning lots of Sunday games) we played about 3 games pre-Christmas in 2000 and folded at the January meeting!!!

 

Big time football can stay in the winter but youth's and amateur should definitely be summer only so we encourage people to play. Your point is even more relevant now with the SPL having had twenty different ko times this season apparently.

[world_3]

Scottish football isnt that much worse in many ways than it has been for a long time. The issue is we can see better stuff all the time..

 

Hearts are certainly better than around 30 years ago, a lot better. But Aberdeen, Dundee Utd., Dundee, Hibs and probably Motherwell too are a lot lot worse. We've lost the strength in depth there used to be too, teams like Morton, Dumbarton, Ayr, Partick etc. could all hold their own in the 70s and early 80s, but in the mad rush to give most of the available money to the top teams (i.e. the OF) the poor have got poorer and the rich richer.

 

I feel that in general the technical ability has also plummeted, take away all the foreigners in the SPL and what kind of games would we be seeing? It would be a total embarrassment, just an endless series of big punts up the park and bouts of head tennis, and that from the country which invented modern football by developing the passing game.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Yesterday, Craig Thomson getting booked for booting the ball into touch was a clear indication of why this is a joke league.

 

Craig Thomsom clearly tried to boot the ball at the Killie player - and missed.

[scott herbertson]

Craig Thomsom clearly tried to boot the ball at the Killie player - and missed.

 

Good grief - the standard has certainly gone down if he can't even hit a player with the ball, never mind pick a pass...

[vegas-voss]

I don't know about the football top argument as when I was a kid I used to have tops from all over the world.It was more a fashion thing and liking football tops in general as opposed to being a fan of any of the teams.If anything though it also seemed to be easier to buy tops from

the high street back then as JJB and Olympus had loads of tops from all over the world now you hardly see any in high street shops.

[New Dawn]

One thing that always strikes me is the lack of kids having a kickabout. I'll blame the rise on home entertainment (playstations, internet and the plethora of tv channels). Parents are also more happy to have their children at home rather than playing outside.

 

When I travel around the country I am always struck by the empty football pitches and grass areas. I cannot remember the last time I saw children having a game of football with jackets for goal posts.

[givememychoice]

One thing that always strikes me is the lack of kids having a kickabout. I'll blame the rise on home entertainment (playstations, internet and the plethora of tv channels). Parents are also more happy to have their children at home rather than playing outside.

 

When I travel around the country I am always struck by the empty football pitches and grass areas. I cannot remember the last time I saw children having a game of football with jackets for goal posts.

 

yeah, i live down near leith links (sorry!) and i hear people saying "the kids have nothing to do" but then, come sunny days there are no games of football going on.

[vegas-voss]

yeah, i live down near leith links (sorry!) and i hear people saying "the kids have nothing to do" but then, come sunny days there are no games of football going on.

Used to play football across the park everyday wether it was rain,sun,or snow from about 6 until it was too dark to play but agree you never see anybody play anymore.

[buba]

The problem is that we insist on comparing ourselves to England. Who's population is 10 times that of our own. And also the richest footballing country on earth.

 

We're never ever gonna compete with England. I think with the size of country we don't do to bad. Sure the league should be more competitive, but you could say that for about half the leagues in Europe. I think if you look at country's of comparable size around Europe we match up pretty well, if not better for attendances and atmosphere. We do need to improve on youth development big time. But it's as much a social issue as anything.

 

Main thing is forget about bloody England.

 

Ps. Never understood anyone who supports another team. Why feel the need to have an English team as well. I really couldnt care less about English football. And don't forget as Brian clough once said " sometimes footballs brilliant sometimes footballs terrible but most of the time football is just average". It's just that sky hype all these crap English games up so much. And people keep buying into it.

 

They need to see the premiership for what it is. An expensive league with massive clubs and a hell of a lot of average games that's over hyped.

[New Dawn]

Used to play football across the park everyday wether it was rain,sun,or snow from about 6 until it was too dark to play but agree you never see anybody play anymore.

 

I was the same when I was younger.

 

It is not just football though that is not being played in outdoor areas now. I was at home at Christmas and there was about a foot of snow. Did I see any kids sledging down the hills? Literally, there would have been 50-100 kids doing this 15-20 years ago.

[New Dawn]

The problem is that we insist on comparing ourselves to England. Who's population is 10 times that of our own. And also the richest footballing country on earth.

 

We're never ever gonna compete with England. I think with the size of country we don't do to bad. Sure the league should be more competitive, but you could say that for about half the leagues in Europe. I think if you look at country's of comparable size around Europe we match up pretty well, if not better for attendances and atmosphere. We do need to improve on youth development big time. But it's as much a social issue as anything.

 

Main thing is forget about bloody England.

 

Ps. Never understood anyone who supports another team. Why feel the need to have an English team as well. I really couldnt care less about English football. And don't forget as Brian clough once said " sometimes footballs brilliant sometimes footballs terrible but most of the time football is just average". It's just that sky hype all these crap English games up so much. And people keep buying into it.

 

They need to see the premiership for what it is. An expensive league with massive clubs and a hell of a lot of average games that's over hyped.

 

I agree with this but I think the penny is dropping down south too. Whether it is due to economic reasons or the fact that for most teams breaking into the top 6-7 teams is very unlikely there has been a significant rise in empty seats at the likes of: Sunderland, Bolton, Birmingham etc.

[jambonian]

Sky have certainly contributed to the downfall in quality and attendances at matches, don't know how many times i've heard folk have watched an EPL game when there's an SPL game on at the same time.

The mates i drink with constantly talk about their favourite teams in England, one, a Hibby, supports Man Utd, two Jambo's, (husband and wife) he supports Arsenal, she supports Liverpool and another Jambo mate supports Chelsea. They even text each other to wind each other up regarding results down there saying "your lot" this and "we" that. Hibs got beat from Hamilton, did the Jambo text the Hibby about that result? No, they sent texts on what was happening with "their" teams down south, never even mentioned Hibs. Too much overexposure of English and European matches on TV. The rich get richer and stuff the rest of us! Don't know how many people i've seen walking about in the recent good weather in Juventus, Barca, Arsenal, Man U, Ajax, Chelsea, German club tops etc.. Hardly a Hearts top in sight, course there's still the gloryhunterwearing Celtic and Rangers tops, most of whom have never even been to Ibrox or Parkheid!

[Dr. Bapswent]

[Busby8]

I'd add that this ridiculous sysytem where we play each other 4 times in a season does nothing but benefit Rangers and Celtic, making the SPL among other things, far less competitive.

 

We have a situation where even if a team outside the Old Firm goes on an early decent run, much like the Hearts of 2005/06, the OF with their superior resources will have an opportunity to do something about it in the latter part of the season.

 

I agree it could be argued that a 10 or 12 team league will have higher profile games than a 16 or 18 team league, but the system we have now, should a non OF team get off to a flyer, only serves to give the OF a second chance to claw back points in the second round of games.

 

It is much more difficult for a team like Hearts, or anyone else for that matter, to sustain such a challenge.

This of course will suit the OF who would prefer to keep their monopoly of Scottish Football, and to hell with the damage it's doing elsewhere.

 

In effect, to win the league right now is like having to do it over two seasons.

 

The only way it's ever likely to get more competitive is either by expanding the league, or if some club is lucky enough to find a generous benefactor.

[Sydney]

I think the "sky tv has destroyed scottish football attendances" argument is deeply flawed. We had no sky tv in the 80's but crowds throughout Scotland are higher now than they were then. Football was no bigger or better back then compared to now.

[jambonian]

I think the "sky tv has destroyed scottish football attendances" argument is deeply flawed. We had no sky tv in the 80's but crowds throughout Scotland are higher now than they were then. Football was no bigger or better back then compared to now.

Not so sure about that. Dundee Utd used to fill their end regardless of who they were playing, Our attendances are slightly above average than back then but old Tynie could hold 29,000 we were normally pretty full when we played Celtic, Rangers, Hibs , Aberdeen (slightly less so) and the Dundee derby attendances would be near capacity. Stadiums are smaller now than they were back then, Tannadice for example used to hold around 22,000, now it's about 12,000, other grounds capacities are smaller also, Fir Park was usually full when we played there and Easter Road held 27,000 15/20 years ago, reduced to 16,000 then upped again to 21,000 or something with it's new stand. The only grounds that have increased the most are Parkheid (60,000) and Ibrox (50,000)ish. Too many gloryhunters jumping on the oldfirm bandwagon when realistically, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and us (to a lesser extent)could compete with them. Celtic's average attendance in their centenery season (1988) was around 33,000 where has the 60,000 suddenly came from? Rangers, before Souness played to 12-14,000 against the smaller teams and Hearts used to get the entire stand behind the goals, and we pretty much filled it.

Football was better back then because it was competitive and referees were better aswell, with the odd exception of Davie Syme and Brian McGinlay.

I know quite a few Jambos that won't go along to the games because they're watching an EPL game instead on ESPN or SKY. I think that can be said of most of the teams in Scotland.

[givememychoice]

I think the "sky tv has destroyed scottish football attendances" argument is deeply flawed. We had no sky tv in the 80's but crowds throughout Scotland are higher now than they were then. Football was no bigger or better back then compared to now.

 

i'd be interested in the stats, and also how they are divided up. Clearly rangers and celtic get a lot more these days. Has this been at the expense of the small clubs?

[givememychoice]

i'd be interested in the stats, and also how they are divided up. Clearly rangers and celtic get a lot more these days. Has this been at the expense of the small clubs?

 

hearts for example are certainly getting less than the mid 80s...

[Eckauskas]

Craig Thomsom clearly tried to boot the ball at the Killie player - and missed.

 

Tried to win the throw in imo.

[Tynie b]

There are many reasons why scottish football is heading on an ever declining spiral.

 

1. Over exposure of non scottish games. Over this weekend and the coming days you can see liverpool v newcastle, arsenal v man utd, Lazio v Juventus, Man Utd v Schalke 04, Barcelona V Real Madrid, Benfica v Braga, Roma v AC Milan, Inter v Fiorentina. or tomorrow you could watch St Mirren V Hamilton..

 

2. As a result, more scottish people are following "foreign" teams. Playing football last monday down at the porty pitz, on our pitch and the one next to us, I was the only one who was wearing a scottish team top. There were more barcelona ones, and others such as argentina, spain etc. (one of our contingent was wearing an AC Milan top, but he is italian!)

 

3. European competitions are designed around getting money to the big teams. No longer do random teams get far in europe. In 1990/91, if any team won 5 European Cup ties (over 2 legs) in a row, they were champions. The draws were unseeded. With only the champions getting in, the entrants varied far more than now. With no seeding, you could find a match like 1979s Nottingham forrest (english champions) knocking out Liverpool (european champions) in the first round, while the mighty Arges Pitesti, Dunadlk, Vejle and Omonia all got to the following round.

 

4. No reserve league/anything beyond u19 league. Hit 19 and if you havent made it, you probably wont. A lot of teenagers finding their careers finished with no real options.

 

5. The split. With relatively few meaningless easy games post split, there is less chance of blooding youngsters. Would you risk blooding youth v the old firm?

 

6. They want to reduce the league to 10, meaning less youth introductions.

 

7. The league is at its most uncompetitive in its history.

 

8. A league where teams play each other 3/4 times while the leagues rated higher than ours play each other twice.

 

9. An FA more concerned with placating the 2 big teams than seeking to have its on authority on the interest of the game as a whole.

 

10. Iain Brines and the rest of his corrupt cronies. The standard of refereeing around the world seems to be going tits up, Here it's 10 times worse. You KNOW that any "Big" desicion (sp?) is going to go the way of the OF. I don't just mean when Hearts play them, any other team outside the Manky Terrorist lovin' **** are onto plums with the ref's now. The whole of scottish football is corrupt to the core, But, there's **** all that can be done so we just have to put up with it!!

[jambo19]

Sky have certainly contributed to the downfall in quality and attendances at matches, don't know how many times i've heard folk have watched an EPL game when there's an SPL game on at the same time.

The mates i drink with constantly talk about their favourite teams in England, one, a Hibby, supports Man Utd, two Jambo's, (husband and wife) he supports Arsenal, she supports Liverpool and another Jambo mate supports Chelsea. They even text each other to wind each other up regarding results down there saying "your lot" this and "we" that. Hibs got beat from Hamilton, did the Jambo text the Hibby about that result? No, they sent texts on what was happening with "their" teams down south, never even mentioned Hibs. Too much overexposure of English and European matches on TV. The rich get richer and stuff the rest of us! Don't know how many people i've seen walking about in the recent good weather in Juventus, Barca, Arsenal, Man U, Ajax, Chelsea, German club tops etc.. Hardly a Hearts top in sight, course there's still the gloryhunterwearing Celtic and Rangers tops, most of whom have never even been to Ibrox or Parkheid!

 

I think Sky have contributed to the downfall in attendances as before teams would rely on tickets as the main part of their income. Now a lot of the money is to do with TV deals but in Scotland most of the money goes to Celtic and Rangers throught the tv deals. The SPL is boring and un-attractive these days which lowers attendances and people take an interest in the English prem or other leagues.

The highest ever attendance for a UEFA competition was in 1970 at hampden where 136505 attended.

149415 people attended Scotland v England in 1937 which is a European record.

I think their was an attendance of 146433 for a Scottish cup final between Celtic and Aberdeen which is a European record for a club match. So how come fans in Scotland have lost interest in their own game and over the last 5 years there has been a drop in attendances in the SPL of 500000. Obviously people might be spending money elsewhere but I think most people are either watching games on TV or like the op says supporting foreign teams. Even with Hearts offering cheap u12 season tickets or hibs and aberdeen allowing season ticket holders to bring friends along for free or five pounds its not working either way.

[givememychoice]

Going to my point about it really being exacerbated in the past 10 years. Attendances in the SPL are down about 20% over the past 10 years. (both in the OF and outside the OF).

The sum of Average attendances outside the OF 10 years ago was 85500, while now it is 69500.

Including the OF, it has dropped from 192000 to 163000.

[jambo19]

Going to my point about it really being exacerbated in the past 10 years. Attendances in the SPL are down about 20% over the past 10 years. (both in the OF and outside the OF).

The sum of Average attendances outside the OF 10 years ago was 85500, while now it is 69500.

Including the OF, it has dropped from 192000 to 163000.

 

Is that average an average for a weekend?

[Adi Dassler]

The reason Scottish football is pish is the lack of provisions we have for youngsters, and shocking coaching.

 

Anyone who has a boy that plays football could tell you about the state of the pitches they have to play on. The most uneven pieces of ground you'll ever see. What chance have they got when the perfectly weighted pass bounces up over a mound and evades the boy running on to it. As a result the ball gets pumped up the park where the biggest lads, who have been deployed at centre half regardless of ability, mop things up by punting the ball out the park...cue a round of applause from those watching(!).

 

The number of players that have slipped through the net due to "not being big enough" is embarrasing. Zander Diamond wouldn't have made it into a pub team in Spain. 3G and 4G helps, but there aren't enough of them.

 

The pitches and facilities in this country are a national embarassment. Edinburgh council are by far the worst, there is a noticeable difference for the better when you play East/West Lothian in my opinion. Pitch wise anyway.

 

Re size. I recall some years ago my brother was dropped by Hutchie despite being by far the best player in the team. He was admittedly small for his age but technically he was head and shoulders above everyone else. His confidence dipped and he eventually stopped playing altogether. My dad was involved in youth football for years and he packed it in a few years back. There are far too many guys involved who are clueless, my old boy who was a former professional just got fed up of people who had never played the game at any level turning up with a couple of kid on SFA coaching badges proclaiming the way forward to be brute strength and power. I wonder if the emphasis will change now that the trend for smaller playmakers like Xavi and Iniesta seems to be the in thing.

 

As far as fan wise goes i think Tazio has hit the nail on the head. No doubt we are losing a generation of fans to televised football. As the average age of fans attending games gets higher the smaller the attendances will get. That seems to me to be obvious. It's hard to see what they can actually do about this bar make it more affordable for people to attend.

[audrey65]

Price has to be a factor too.

 

My West Ham supporting mate is travelling down to London to see West Ham's last home game against Sunderland. Two fairly big Premiership sides.

 

The cost of his ticket? ?20.

 

We'll pay more than that to go to Tannadice.

 

Paid ?60 the other week to go to the Emirates. The stadium that is. Not the country.

[red21]

My dad was involved in youth football for years and he packed it in a few years back. There are far too many guys involved who are clueless, my old boy who was a former professional just got fed up of people who had never played the game at any level turning up with a couple of kid on SFA coaching badges proclaiming the way forward to be brute strength and power.

 

Nail hit on the head. The win at all costs attitude adopted by some of these 'coaches' (with kids as young as 5) is also not helping things...

[topcat]

8. A league where teams play each other 3/4 times while the leagues rated higher than ours play each other twice.

 

The only league from a similarly sized country to be rated higher than Scotland is Denmark where they play each other three times.

[givememychoice]

Going to my point about it really being exacerbated in the past 10 years. Attendances in the SPL are down about 20% over the past 10 years. (both in the OF and outside the OF).

The sum of Average attendances outside the OF 10 years ago was 85500, while now it is 69500.

Including the OF, it has dropped from 192000 to 163000.

 

 

Is that average an average for a weekend?

 

its the average across 2 weekends in effect. as only 50% of teams play at home at a time.

so, the total for the season was 19*192000. Now it is 19*163000

[givememychoice]

The only league from a similarly sized country to be rated higher than Scotland is Denmark where they play each other three times.

 

My mistake on that point. But, our league is massively over-rated due to the relative success of the OF in europe.

Scotland are rated 15th/53 for club competitions and 35th for national ratings. There is only one country with a bigger jump - Cyprus.

 

The sad thing is, non OF clubs are likely to struggle v opposition from lower ranks.

[Ulysses]

Is it the demise of the game in Scotland? Or a terminal decline in crowds? Or is it just that we're getting more and more pessimistic?

 

Between them, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United are heading for a combined total of 820,000 through the gate this season. The numbers have been steadily falling since 2006, but the average attendances for those four clubs this season will be about the same as they were in 1994. Maybe we're at the start of a long-term decline, but the Hearts and Hibs managements back in 1994 would have been pleased to get the sort of attendances they're getting in 2011.

 

If you really want to see a percentage slump in crowds, look up the numbers for Kilmarnock and Motherwell and see how their current crowds compare to what they were getting in the mid-1990s. It's not nice reading, and you do have to wonder if eventually the combined forces of the OF and the armchair EPL viewer will eventually see our attendances go the same way.

 

And how do Hearts compare internationally for attendances? We'd rank 3rd in Greece, 4th in Russia and 5th in Belgium. We'd be a little below mid-table in the top league in France, and even in Serie A there are about half a dozen clubs with smaller crowds than we have. We'd be 4 or 5 off the bottom in La Liga. We'd be just outside the top ten in Holland, and just outside the top four in Portugal - with bigger crowds than Braga, that is to say the same Braga who have a shot at this year's Europa League final.

 

I'm not sure Scottish domestic football is in terminal decline, but maybe it just looks that way when you have to share a league with the two ugliest football institutions in Europe.

[Sydney]

i'd be interested in the stats, and also how they are divided up. Clearly rangers and celtic get a lot more these days. Has this been at the expense of the small clubs?

 

I have some interesting stats that show the average attendances for Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Rangers, Celtic and Kilmarnock since the second world war. Dont know how to post a picture of the charts though....

 

Since the early sixties, the average combined attendances for the above teams (except OF) have bounced up and down between 9,000 and 11,000. Sometimes it has been Aberdeen with the largest amount, sometimes Hearts. Hearts biggest two years for attendances since 1960 were 05-06 and 06-07 (followed by 87-88 and 85-86). Hearts attendances back in the mnid eighties were skewed, though, by large crowds turning out for the "big" games (eg 29,000 watching Rangers or Celtic). We were still regularly getting crowds of less than 10,000. Nowadays, more people turn out on a regular basis to see Hearts (as the big crowds were often made up of 10,000 Rangers or Celtic fans at Tynie). There are probably 4000 more people who watch Hearts every match than there were in the mid eighties.

 

Rangers and Celtic's attendances have soared since the beginning of the 80's (average OF attendances in early 80's were 20,000), but specifically since the 90's. Since 1998 they have been approx 50,000).

 

So, to answer the question, broadly speaking it looks as though the other main teams in Scotland have not had their attendances affected by Sky Sports, and more specifically they also haven't had their attendances affected by fans going to watch the OF instead of their local teams.

[Sydney]

 

If you really want to see a percentage slump in crowds, look up the numbers for Kilmarnock and Motherwell and see how their current crowds compare to what they were getting in the mid-1990s. It's not nice reading, and you do have to wonder if eventually the combined forces of the OF and the armchair EPL viewer will eventually see our attendances go the same way.

 

.

 

This is creative analysis at its best. Looking at Killie, whether they have had an increase or decrease depends on when you first look at their attendance data. In the mid eighties they were getting less than 2,000. This was because they were in the lower divisions. So to compare their crowds now to then looks as though they have had a massive increase. In the mid to late 90's though, they were getting between 9,000-11,000. But this is because they won the Cup in 97 and had a team worth watching. Even when they won the league in the sixties, they only averaged 10,000.

[merseyjambo]

For whats on offer, the pricing of Scottish Football is a serious issue.

 

If you exclude England, the walk up costs to go watch Scottish Football is scandelous. Last weekend in a completely meaningless game, Hibs were charging ?22 per ticket to watch them play St Johnstone apparently.

 

I'm going to Goodison this weekend and being charged ?37 for the privelidge of sitting in an old wooden stand, squinting my head round pillars to watch them play Man City. My brother in law paid ?42 to sit and watch them play at Old Trafford recently.

 

Apparently, the waiting list for a junior season ticket at Anfield is 10 years. There then becomes issues that fathers can't always get a ST beside their kid.

 

These are the sort of problems driving people away from the game.

 

What Sky has done is by giving all these clubs a load of cash is to start driving the demands and costs of wages and transfer fees through the roof. English clubs (who are the primary driving force in this) all of a sudden had all this money to spend. So instead of keeping things realistic, they started spending 2, 3, 5 million on mediocre foreign players. This drove the price of quality foreign players higher. All of a sudden, transfer fees of 7-10 million were the norm. The amount these players needed wanted after tax went up, so to cover these costs the cost of tickets went up.

 

In 1980 when I first started going, for a juvenile it was 50 pence to get into the Gorgie Road terracing, 70 pence to go into McLeod Street. Adults were paying about ?1.20 & ?1.50. A father son ticket for one of the wing stands was about ?3.00 and for the centre stand about ?5.00.

 

As has been said earlier, there are issues when coaches look at people coming through. Again this is a UK thing as coaches are looking for physical attributes such as size, strength and speed and not technical ability. After the 2010 English debacle at the World Cup, there was a debate on Talksport and someone who had been a youth coach at a club like Aston Villa or Spurs said that a player like Messi or Ozil would have been released by them because they were too lightweight.

 

The reality of Scottish Football is that as a country, we are too small to support this many senior clubs. Due to the uglies monopoly since the emergence of owners such as Lawrence Marlborough and SDM on one side and Fergus McCann on the other, the OF have had a 'spending power' that none of the rest have. This led to a dramatic rise in attendances during this period. They however like most other clubs are now suffering through poor product and the sheer boredom of Scottish Football. Gone are the days when they had waiting lists for ST books and you couldn't get a walk up ticket. The fans have become bored of Scottish Football in its current state. Its anti-competitive and they know before a season starts that they're more than likely playing for 2 cups.

 

The only way I can see to bring fans back through the door is to merge the SPL into the English leagues and use whats left of the Scottish Leagues in a similar manner to the regional leagues in Germany/Spain where the bigger clubs play a reserve side in it. It may just entice the fans back through the door by seeing new teams and going to new places.

 

The downsides are that it would kill of the SFA (maybe no bad thing) and from a UEFA/FIFA point of view, mean a British national team.

 

Unless it comes up with something innovative in the near future, Scottish Football (and English) are going to lose a generation of fans they are unlikely to win back