ritchies75 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 According to Radio Scotland Dundee United board met this morning and decided to vote against a top division of ten teams. With Kilmarnock and ICT also voting against this should mean the proposals for a top ten league are dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddley Walker Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Great news if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 We should be backing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Are we not already standing against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eckauskas Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What's the alternative being offered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What's the alternative being offered? Unless it's 16 or 18 then we should stay as we are, 10 & 14 team proposals are both garbage... 12 sucks-but less than 10 or 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What's the alternative being offered? There doesn't need to be one. The vote is for a new set-up. There is no obligation on sceptical clubs to propose anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del1812 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'd rather the way it is than 10 teams. Great news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddley Walker Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What's the alternative being offered? While i disagree with the split because any sensible league should surely be symmetrical, I'd still rather keep the 12 teams than go back to ten. What i'd really like is 16 teams, 30 games and therefore a much higher chance of someone else doing well at the top of the league. Scotland needs an increase in competition if we don't want to see crowds dwindling even more, even if it means sacrificing extra TV/gate income for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchies75 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Are we not already standing against? No seem to remember Neil Doncaster going out to Lithuania to convince Vlad to back his proposals and Vlad agreed. Dont know if he has changed his mind since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 We should be backing this. I wonder what has turned our heads (if indeed they have) since we were fairly vocal opponents at the outset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 What's the alternative being offered? Eckauskas, It was up to the Working Party to come up with a solution that all (or 11 clubs) would vote for. Not for others to spend money off their own backs to come up with alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'd rather the way it is than 10 teams. Great news. Me too. Change the way money is divied up and the 12 team set-up isn't that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 The current set up isn't too bad IMO. Plenty of interest right down to the last day every season usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'd like to think we were always against it. Any team voting yes with the OF on anything should be ashamed to admit it. The vote should always have been 10 - 2 against. For years now they've been whoring their wears to get out off Scotland. How could any team owner think now that they'd want to do whats right for Scottish football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 No seem to remember Neil Doncaster going out to Lithuania to convince Vlad to back his proposals and Vlad agreed. Dont know if he has changed his mind since. Never noticed the outcome of that trip to meet Vlad on here, I always assumed that we were against it. I'm not against change, just that we make sure it's for the good of Scottish football and not the OF. I'd like to see a 16 team SPL with two relegation places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eckauskas Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 There doesn't need to be one. The vote is for a new set-up. There is no obligation on sceptical clubs to propose anything. Fair enough. Scottish football does need a complete overhaul, mind. I just wasn't sure if there was an alternative being banded about if the 10 team set up is dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigO Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Again, league size isn't the biggest issue and I think that was at the crux of Hearts' argument. A fairer distribution of the dosh and return of reserve or some type of 2nds setup. Ontop of that I think we wanted a bigger league - not sure if 14, 16 or 18. I always had a feeling that we'd go for 10 teams if other things were changed at the same time. Simply changing league size changes nothing - especially if it remains playing one another 4 times a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Fair enough. Scottish football does need a complete overhaul, mind. I just wasn't sure if there was an alternative being banded about if the 10 team set up is dismissed. Noting official, I would suggest, A) A south american format with 20 team spl split in to upper 10 and lower 10 which both play home and away before Christmas. 2 teams relegated and 2 promoted. Then both play another 18 games. At the end the points from the first 18 games and second 18 games are added and the top 4 in the upper 10 go to a play off, and the lowest points in the spl lower go down. or Keep it as it is for now but plan to have an 18 team SPL in 6 to 8 years time. I.e. pump some money to the 1st division to bring teams up to strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchies75 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 Never noticed the outcome of that trip to meet Vlad on here, I always assumed that we were against it. I'm not against change, just that we make sure it's for the good of Scottish football and not the OF. I'd like to see a 16 team SPL with two relegation places. Just checking back at media reports from time and it seems i got it wrong. Vlad never agreed to top ten, but he demanded a fairer distribution of TV money. Hearts proposed a top league of 14 at the meeting in January but this was only backed by two other clubs. Cant find anything since then from Hearts to say whether they are voting for a top ten league or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Just checking back at media reports from time and it seems i got it wrong. Vlad never agreed to top ten, but he demanded a fairer distribution of TV money. Hearts proposed a top league of 14 at the meeting in January but this was only backed by two other clubs. Cant find anything since then from Hearts to say whether they are voting for a top ten league or not. I do remember the TV money and 14 team league, now that you mention it. I wouldn't be against us voting for change, but the worry is that as soon as the teams agree to it the OF muscle in and get everything their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester™ Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 It was up to the Working Party to come up with a solution that all (or 11 clubs) would vote for. Not for others to spend money off their own backs to come up with alternatives. I think you should tell Neil Doncaster that as well. His 'Put Up or Shut Up' to the 'Rebels' is rather tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Benoit Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Noting official, I would suggest, Keep it as it is for now but plan to have an 18 team SPL in 6 to 8 years time. I.e. pump some money to the 1st division to bring teams up to strength. Take into account the top 12 we have now and add Dunfermline, Raith, Falkirk, Ross County, Dundee (if they sort their cash situation) also Partick and Livingston have the facilities Airdrie have an all seater stadium. Don't know if I've missed anyone out but we could easily start with a 16 team league next season and an 18 is certainly plausible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radge21 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Hope Hearts now join Dundee United and make our position clear. Rod Petrie of the hobos is all for the 10 team league. He needs Rangers and Celtic coming to the empty seat stadium twice each. Sad sad club. Who dont care about their supporters. A sad wee team who only think about the money others will provide. Is there any point now in having another meeting at Hampden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I think you should tell Neil Doncaster that as well. His 'Put Up or Shut Up' to the 'Rebels' is rather tiresome. Yep, and it could be his death knell. If this vote doesn't go through, it's really a vote of no confidence in Doncaster's ability to get all clubs pulling in the same direction - I'm sure the OF won't be too happy in him either that their support for the proposals hasn't been seen through. Unless he pulls off a major sponsorship coup or two tout de suite I can't see him hanging around for much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Hope Hearts now join Dundee United and make our position clear. Rod Petrie of the hobos is all for the 10 team league. He needs Rangers and Celtic coming to the empty seat stadium twice each. Sad sad club. Who dont care about their supporters. A sad wee team who only think about the money others will provide. Is there any point now in having another meeting at Hampden? #ibs would be one of the favorites to go down in a 10 team league. Petrie being dumb is now confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Tolbooth Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I know I slate our current set up, but I'd much rather we stayed with it than go to the ludicrous proposals put forward by that clown Doncaster, the guy really is clueless!! 14 or 16 for me, with 14 being my preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest juvehearts Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 i dont see how we cant have a strong 14 team spl with a championship/ spl 2 for a lower division & then regional leagued below that or a pyramid system where the bottom have a chance at glory at the moment the SPL/SFL is a closed shop & is frankly boring, lets face it if the big clubs can give something back to the lower teams to sustain them then they are obliged to do it, the whole f scottish football needs shaken up & more teams challenging for league honours at the top juve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxteth O'Grady Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 The 10 team set up proposed by Doncaster would be the final nail in the SPL Coffin. 16 teams would be better than what we have just now. Punt the O.F. out altogether and it would start to get interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamac1 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'll never forget the yo yo years following hearts in the late 70's early 80's. Don't ever bring back a 10 team premier league, worst thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 i dont see how we cant have a strong 14 team spl with a championship/ spl 2 for a lower division & then regional leagued below that or a pyramid system where the bottom have a chance at glory at the moment the SPL/SFL is a closed shop & is frankly boring, lets face it if the big clubs can give something back to the lower teams to sustain them then they are obliged to do it, the whole f scottish football needs shaken up & more teams challenging for league honours at the top juve I'm not sure we have enough clubs to have a proper pyramid system unless the junior clubs show more interest in joining the leagues. How many for example applied when we moved from 38 up to now 42 clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hacker Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 The main thing we have to change is two clubs going up or down between the premier and first with a play off being introduced. By the way, junior clubs have no interest in going senior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchies75 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 The main thing we have to change is two clubs going up or down between the premier and first with a play off being introduced. By the way, junior clubs have no interest in going senior. The Inverness Chairman was saying that he expects the 12 team league to remain for the next two years but play offs to be introduced from next season. Meanwhile Jim Spence said that he had been told that clubs in favour of the top ten proposals were threatening to form a breakaway league leaving out those that vote against a top ten league. He added though that he thought that was an empty threat and they would never go through with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Meanwhile Jim Spence said that he had been told that clubs in favour of the top ten proposals were threatening to form a breakaway league leaving out those that vote against a top ten league. He added though that he thought that was an empty threat and they would never go through with it. Bet that threat came from the erse in charge at St Johnstone , empty threat the Uglies wont do anything that threatens the european places and we know they are the power behind those promoting the 10 teams . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Bet that threat came from the erse in charge at St Johnstone , empty threat the Uglies wont do anything that threatens the european places and we know they are the power behind those promoting the 10 teams . Geoff Brown; desperate to guarantee 4 home games against the gruesomes since they have no fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Geoff Brown; desperate to guarantee 4 home games against the gruesomes since they have no fans. I haven't seen the financial figures but while more money will go to SPL 2, I can't imagine that SPL 1 will not get the vast majority. I can't see SJ being guaranteed to be in SPL1 in 2 years time. Hibs and Aberdeen of the also-rans likely, but St Johnstone no way. Maybe turkeys do vote for Chritmas after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Take into account the top 12 we have now and add Dunfermline, Raith, Falkirk, Ross County, Dundee (if they sort their cash situation) also Partick and Livingston have the facilities Airdrie have an all seater stadium. Don't know if I've missed anyone out but we could easily start with a 16 team league next season and an 18 is certainly plausible I think its been documented that anything less then 18 is to few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest juvehearts Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I'm not sure we have enough clubs to have a proper pyramid system unless the junior clubs show more interest in joining the leagues. How many for example applied when we moved from 38 up to now 42 clubs? i think it was 10 but was voted down to 3/4. the junior clubs dont need to show more interest in moving up as their leagues would be the final stages before being awarded a place in the football league at the moment their are 42 club teams, of which only 14-16 are full time. the SPL 2 / Championship would be part time, with the junior below & amateur below that. based on a 16 team spl, & a 2x 14 team lower division bringing up teams from the junior's, its plausible, weither it will happen remains to be seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanyl Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Noting official, I would suggest, A) A south american format with 20 team spl split in to upper 10 and lower 10 which both play home and away before Christmas. 2 teams relegated and 2 promoted. Then both play another 18 games. At the end the points from the first 18 games and second 18 games are added and the top 4 in the upper 10 go to a play off, and the lowest points in the spl lower go down. or Keep it as it is for now but plan to have an 18 team SPL in 6 to 8 years time. I.e. pump some money to the 1st division to bring teams up to strength. I suggested the same a while back, probably way to radical for the SPL though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Dover Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Something I've just noticed is that in the Championship they play 46 games .............yet we are told 44 is unworkable ( 12 team league playing each other 4 times without the need for the split ? ) Mind you they have already played 10 games more than most Premier clubs so how do they fit the games in ? As for Doncaster, dead man walking surely DOH I guess they must still play a full fixture card on Saturdays that we have set aside for international matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1874robbo Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Take into account the top 12 we have now and add Dunfermline, Raith, Falkirk, Ross County, Dundee (if they sort their cash situation) also Partick and Livingston have the facilities Airdrie have an all seater stadium. Don't know if I've missed anyone out but we could easily start with a 16 team league next season and an 18 is certainly plausible Livingston are moving to a new 6000 seater stadium,how does that fit in? I thought the criteria was for stadia to hold 10000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartsfc_fan Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Livingston are moving to a new 6000 seater stadium,how does that fit in? I thought the criteria was for stadia to hold 10000? That has been dropped about 4 years ago I think. 6,000 seater is the minimum now. (hence Hamilton etc only have like 6,000 seater stadiums). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Something I've just noticed is that in the Championship they play 46 games .............yet we are told 44 is unworkable ( 12 team league playing each other 4 times without the need for the split ? ) Mind you they have already played 10 games more than most Premier clubs so how do they fit the games in ? As for Doncaster, dead man walking surely DOH I guess they must still play a full fixture card on Saturdays that we have set aside for international matches They play on a lot of European midweeks. Doncaster suggested on Radio Scotland that the SPL2 could play a 44 game season by doing the same thing. League 1 and League 2 play on international weekends, but there are too many internationalists in the Championship for it to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_ Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 What these chairmen who're obsessed with their four OF games a year need to understand is, if nothing is done soon there won't be anyone coming through their gates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I'm glad United are against this, I'm guessing they won't be alone. Inverness and Killie were dead against a 10 team league before and I have a feeling that Inverness at least will be voting against it as well. I hope Hearts will do similar, I know they voted against it before but I have a feeling if we were given assurances about the prize money being more evenly distributed and the reintroduction of a reserve league (unbelievable that the likes of Aberdeen and Hibs aren't taking this stance either tbh) then we might be talked round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 If it is voted down then I look forward to Doncaster's Robinson-esque climb-down where he then has to admit that a larger league is in fact perfectly workable afterall. This would also be the stage that the OF start moaning about clubs not doing everything they can to secure the future of Scottish football despite their best efforts to drive us all unselfishly forward and it will be the time when SKY/ESPN start making their presence felt more openly... Like the Dark Lord of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I know they voted against it before but I have a feeling if we were given assurances about the prize money being more evenly distributed and the reintroduction of a reserve league (unbelievable that the likes of Aberdeen and Hibs aren't taking this stance either tbh) then we might be talked round. If we could get changes to make a significantly more equal league in terms of money and a reserve league then we should vote in favour of any changes. These things are far more important than the number of teams in the league. The reason that the league is shit is because it's completely predictable, and the overall standard is not very high. Neither of these will change if there are 10, 12, 14, 16 or 18 teams in the top division. Anyway, nothing will happen any time soon. They have never had the votes to push this through, and they aren't close to getting them. I'm curious which will actually happen first - Rangers takeover or reconstruction vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahgrassyshoes Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 i think it was 10 but was voted down to 3/4. the junior clubs dont need to show more interest in moving up as their leagues would be the final stages before being awarded a place in the football league at the moment their are 42 club teams, of which only 14-16 are full time. the SPL 2 / Championship would be part time, with the junior below & amateur below that. based on a 16 team spl, & a 2x 14 team lower division bringing up teams from the junior's, its plausible, weither it will happen remains to be seen That's good in theory, but the team getting promoted would then have to go full time to compete in the top league. Then, assuming they get relegated straight away, the have to go part time again. That's likely to drive players away because they would have to choose between keeping the job they are holding currently while playing part time and gambling on getting a fulltime contract playing football and kepping it. Think the Juniors would be interested in joining a pyramid system with regionalised leagues below the 2nd tier.They reason they are reluctant to join the current set up is that there is more money in the junior setup which is regionalised that the third division. They get better crowds playing "derbies" more frequently that travelling up to elgin/ peterhead or down to stranraer/queen of the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoseLikeMahe Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Non-OF clubs are voting in favour of 10 team proposal for one simple reason - more money for them. I'm glad United are voting against tho... I'd rather see the current set up remain until they can get to a stage where a 16 or 18 team league is viable. We all want the bigger league for more variety etc... but the simple fact is that it would kill a good few clubs if it happened now. TV companies just wont pay more money for a bigger SPL... Probably less as they'd get less OF games to cover. So you'd have less money spread around more clubs and a few SPL clubs that rely on that income to survive would fold. A change to the x.xx% allocation of prize money per finishing place in the league would help a little - all TV money dished out to SPL clubs by other means is already done equally. And like it or not, removing the OF from the SPL would remove a huge amount of all the other SPL clubs' income (via OF games but mainly TV money) So we'd have a competitive league but it would be on a par with the Irish league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templeton'sUnderpants Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 For me the number of teams is not the issue, the issues are distribution of money, implementation of either colt teams or bringing back the reserve league and more than one team up and down which is mind numbingly boring. I do believe the 10 team league actually implements all these though I'm not an expert on it, just my interpretation from reading the papers? If this is the case I have no problem with a 10 team league. I would far rather play the old firm, hibs et al 4 times a season than watch us play Partick in an empty stadium. I also don't think this would add to competition as people think. The old firm will regularly horse most first division teams whereas they will snatch results against us and Dundee Utd. etc. Would in my opinion increase the gulf. One thing mentioned in this thread was pumping money into the 1st division with the hope of in a few years creating a larger league. This seems the only plausible way to make a larger league. It is my observation people don't really have a problem with 12 teams or even the split it's the fact that the two combined lead to unequal fixtures? Perhaps 14 would be workable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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