Evolutionist OR Creationist?

[hughesie27]

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=28375

 

''How do we know god created birds?''

 

''It says it in the bible''

[upthehill]

I believe in the Bible.

[Eckauskas]

I'm an agnostic.

 

I don't believe in anything that scientists have proven to be false.

[Walter Payton]

Sorry Hughesie, can't watch the video (work firewall) so I may be missing the point, but creation theory and the theory of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

[Moriarty]

Creation Theory is idiotic.

 

I am normally pretty accepting of religious people if they want to believe a story thats up to them. But its just a load of bollocks really isn't it?

[hughesie27]

The video shows a couple of guys taking schoolkids of about P3-5 ona school trip to a museum. They basically say that adam + eve lived alongside the dinosaurs and before Eve ate the apple there was no death and the Earth is only a few thousand years old. People living for 800 years was regularity. Anything that they cannot come up with a counter argument they say that it's a diffuculty all creationalists have. Such as radioactive decay being used to date things back millions of years.

It's quite sickening to watch the children being brainwashed.

[The Doctor]

It's not as simple as just asking do you believe in creation or evolution. I do not believe in a 6,000 year old earth, I do not believe that men and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. I do not believe in creation the way the Christians in that film believe in creation.

 

I believe that God created the earth, in fact the whole universe, but that doesn't preclude evolution or a 4.5 billion year old earth. It's not even just as simple as saying 'intelligent design', or God created the world but used evolution as the process by which the world was formed.

 

The problem with believing that the universe came about as a result of the big bang, random occurrence of planets and stars forming and life beginning on earth and potentially elsewhere in the universe is that it then follows that there is no purpose or meaning to life. It's just a coincidence. You are simply a collection of molecules and atoms interacting in a way that appears to have more meaning than any other collection of stuff. You are a series of chemical reactions with no purpose. For me, this is undermines what it is to be alive, never mind human.

 

It also follows that the world is exactly as it should be. If the earth and everything on it was involved in this process of evolution it is and continues to become a more perfect system, it must be getting better and it must be exactly as it should be at this moment in time. It is the product of billions of years of evolution after all. The evolutionist must accept that the world is as it should be.

 

For the Christian the world is not as it should be, because of sin the earth and everything in it has become corrupt, tainted and perverted by sin. The evolutionist shouldn't care about the environment or global warming, it's part of earth's evolution and it's a natural process, it doesn't matter. For the Christian the world is in crisis and needs to be restored. The first part of that is the restoration of the relationship between man and God, the way He created it to be. For the Christian God is engaged with the world, for the evolutionist there is just this universe, the way it is and no more.

 

For me, the creation story, set over six days and the Adam and Eve story of the fall is metaphoric, but it whilst it might not be literally true it contains truth about a fallen world, in a universe created by God, but spoiled by sin. It is not the literal interpretation of scripture that is important, but the true meaning behind it. This gives me a sense of purpose, of morality, of responsibility, of value. It provides my life with meaning.

 

I believe the bible, like my brother Upthehill, but I'm not going to be ticking the creationist box, or indeed any box as I feel that the video misrepresents most reasoning Christians and I am very wary of being lumped in with the kind of fundamentalists who undermine, in my opinion, the true message and meaning of the bible and who alienate non-Christians with their outlandish and divisive theories.

 

I don't think it's me sticking my head in the sand here, the world is a mess, who's going to fix it? I don't believe either six day, young earth creationists or evolutionists have the answer.

[flecktimus]

Made my mind up when certain schools in the USA banned Darwin's Theory. Dont like it when debate is not allowed, it stinks of its my way or take the highway

[Sheriff Fatman]

Sorry Hughesie, can't watch the video (work firewall) so I may be missing the point, but creation theory and the theory of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Yes they are. Being a Christian and agreeing with the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive, but being a creationist (creation is not a theory, it is a hypothisis based on very little evidence, none of which is repeatable or backed up from other sources) and agreeing with the theory of evolution are.

[Scallywag]

I agree that Creationalism and Evolution are not mutaly exclusive. Often science creates as many questions as it answers.

 

I find it difficult to understand how you can claim to believe the Bible. Do you read it literaly or as metaphore, and if a bit of both how do you know when it is literal or symbolism. It is full of hidden meanings, mis-translations, atrology and geometry, how much of this is considered in your belief.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I agree that Creationalism and Evolution are not mutaly exclusive. Often science creates as many questions as it answers.

 

I find it difficult to understand how you can claim to believe the Bible. Do you read it literaly or as metaphore, and if a bit of both how do you know when it is literal or symbolism. It is full of hidden meanings, mis-translations, atrology and geometry, how much of this is considered in your belief.

 

Creationists take the Bible to be literal truth. If the Bible is literal truth and God made every animal and Adam named them, then evolution theory is wrong, so how can they not be mutually exclusive.

[tommythejambo]

That video actually shocks me. All those children being brainwashed.

 

So many holes in their theory, it's unbelieveable.

 

I like the way they just dance around it hwne presented with a question aswell.

[Toggie88]

While the evolutionist theory is convincing, it is just that. A theory.

 

If all you believe in is science, then you are niaive. What happens if sciences proves that their is some sort of force/power. It would mean that everything else science has proven would be obsolete.

[Boris]

While the evolutionist theory is convincing, it is just that. A theory.

 

If all you believe in is science, then you are niaive. What happens if sciences proves that their is some sort of force/power. It would mean that everything else science has proven would be obsolete.

 

What are havering about?

 

If science were to prove another force/power existed and one simply believed in science then bingo - everybodies happy!

 

I don't see how this would make all previous proven scientific theories as obsolete though because if you are suggesting that there IS a higher power/force then that would surely mean that these theories are already nonesense, whether science has proven the existence of this supreme power or not.

 

[Craigieboy]

I used to believe in god. I suppose with the passing of time, I feel that I saw things that changed my mind.

 

One of these things was religious corruption. Not very nice to be dealing with hypocrites. But hey, that was my experience.

 

My dilema however is that there does seem to be a great degree of intelligent design in humans & animals. Who cannot marvel at the tiny little invisible egg becoming a fully formed human being with their own personality & the capacity to love?

 

Yet, I am also aware of the destructive elements of nature & the fact that the 'creation' seems to be a bit skewed. Worms that bore into a childs skin & cause blindess. Was that thing 'created'? Yes, a baby or some animal 'creation' is superb, but what about all the destructive animals?

 

It seems that if there is a god then he enjoys watching the ongoing suffering that occurs due to his creation.

 

It's all a bit odd really.

 

.

[Sheriff Fatman]

While the evolutionist theory is convincing, it is just that. A theory.

 

If all you believe in is science, then you are niaive. What happens if sciences proves that their is some sort of force/power. It would mean that everything else science has proven would be obsolete.

 

Gravity is a theory.

 

Theories of gravity have been made obsolete at least once and is probably about to be again . Newton's theory was made obsolete by Einstein's. Einstein's theory is proving to be unworkable when it comes to quantum mechanics, so the theory needs to be disregarded and started on again.

 

 

That's what happens with science, theories are made that best fit the available evidence. When new evidence comes up, the theories are modified or even thrown out. Religion (especially creationist religion) say that it knows best and no evidence can ever change the immutable facts.

 

I know which one I find more naive.

[mac]

Here's a simple test of your faith:

 

http://www.ksdk.com/news/health/health_article.aspx?storyid=143086

 

The parents can argue their case from prison.

[Craig R]

The problem with believing that the universe came about as a result of the big bang, random occurrence of planets and stars forming and life beginning on earth and potentially elsewhere in the universe is that it then follows that there is no purpose or meaning to life. It's just a coincidence. You are simply a collection of molecules and atoms interacting in a way that appears to have more meaning than any other collection of stuff. You are a series of chemical reactions with no purpose. For me, this is undermines what it is to be alive, never mind human.

 

Why? What exactly is the problem with that? Why do humans need to have a purpose?

[Walter Payton]

Yes they are. Being a Christian and agreeing with the theory of evolution are not mutually exclusive, but being a creationist (creation is not a theory, it is a hypothisis based on very little evidence, none of which is repeatable or backed up from other sources) and agreeing with the theory of evolution are.

 

So you can't believe a God created the earth then set the process of evolution in place?

[Sheriff Fatman]

The problem with believing that the universe came about as a result of the big bang, random occurrence of planets and stars forming and life beginning on earth and potentially elsewhere in the universe is that it then follows that there is no purpose or meaning to life. It's just a coincidence. You are simply a collection of molecules and atoms interacting in a way that appears to have more meaning than any other collection of stuff. You are a series of chemical reactions with no purpose. For me, this is undermines what it is to be alive, never mind human.

 

All valid beliefs, but nothing to do with Evolution vs Creationism. Evolution says nothing about how the universe was formed or how life started. It just describes the mechanism by which the diversity of life forms occurred.

[The Doctor]

I agree that Creationalism and Evolution are not mutaly exclusive. Often science creates as many questions as it answers.

 

I find it difficult to understand how you can claim to believe the Bible. Do you read it literaly or as metaphore, and if a bit of both how do you know when it is literal or symbolism. It is full of hidden meanings, mis-translations, atrology and geometry, how much of this is considered in your belief.

 

I believe the bible contains many different styles and methods of writing, some is metaphor, some is literal, some is poetry, it is not meant to be understood only one way or another. How you tell the difference is not without its pitfalls and risks, but as a believer I have the Holy Spirit to guide me and to help me interpret scripture and to help me understand it. This is a personal process, there's no one size fits all interpretation. That's because my relationship with God is personal and unique, God speaks to me about my life and I speak to him about my life. This happens through prayer and devotional reading of the bible. As I grow spiritually, so the relationship and my understanding of God deepens. My understanding is tested against scripture and tradition, with the input of other Christians who walk alongside me on my spiritual journey, it's not just self fulfilling.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about hidden meanings, astrology and geometry, although I would deny that mis-translation is a problem. (That's another argument) If you're talking about mystical aspects of God's character or passages that are impossible to understand then yes, there are those aspects of Christian faith, but we are not the same as God, we should not be surprised that we don't understand everything in scripture. God is not bound by three dimensions, by time or by a physical body. He is fundamentally different from us and so it's impossible to fully understand Him. Spiritual growth is a process and as I grow closer to Him, I understand more of His character, but not and probably never the whole.

[Sheriff Fatman]

So you can't believe a God created the earth then set the process of evolution in place?

 

You can, but then you are not believing in Creationism. Creationists believe that every single word of Genisis is immutable fact, that God created every single animal and plant in a 6 day period (though they do argue about how long a day was???????).

[Walter Payton]

You can, but then you are not believing in Creationism. Creationists believe that every single word of Genisis is immutable fact, that God created every single animal and plant in a 6 day period (though they do argue about how long a day was???????).

 

7 day Creationists might believe that, but there are plenty of people who could accurately be described as Creationists who don't.

[The Doctor]

Why? What exactly is the problem with that? Why do humans need to have a purpose?

 

I want my life to have purpose and meaning, as I said, it gives me value as a human being. I am more than just a collection of atoms and chemical reactions.

 

What happens when a person dies? Nothing has changed physically, they have all the same atoms, exactly the same potential for the chemical reactions that were taking place seconds before, so where do they go?

[Sheriff Fatman]

7 day Creationists might believe that, but there are plenty of people who could accurately be described as Creationists who don't.

 

Not in my experience. Creationists believe that the Bible is literal truth and Genesis is the genuine history of how god created all animals. Some creationists have a weird argument with themselves about the difference between macro and micro evolution, but they do not believe that species are created by any form of evolution.

[The Doctor]

All valid beliefs, but nothing to do with Evolution vs Creationism. Evolution says nothing about how the universe was formed or how life started. It just describes the mechanism by which the diversity of life forms occurred.

 

I agree, but for evolution to occur it's obvious that life has to start somewhere, science has no definite answers to this question.

 

Now I'm getting very close to a God of the gaps theory if I suggest that because we don't know it must be God, however that is not my reasoning, rather this is where my faith provides me with an answer. Life comes from God, this rather than solves the problem pre-empts it. It is from there that I start, not 'I don't understand so God is the solution'. There may come a time when we understand scientifically how life started, for me this will tell me how God did it, rather than removing Him from the process. Much in the same way that I understand evolution, the theory and understanding doesn't remove God from the process, rather I understand how life evolved, under God's sovereignty and His guidance.

[monkfish1979]

Ah, but evolution is just god's "tool".....

 

 

 

 

 

[Moriarty]

God is the manifistation of people's fear that there is nothing when they die.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I agree, but for evolution to occur it's obvious that life has to start somewhere, science has no definite answers to this question.

 

Now I'm getting very close to a God of the gaps theory if I suggest that because we don't know it must be God, however that is not my reasoning, rather this is where my faith provides me with an answer. Life comes from God, this rather than solves the problem pre-empts it. It is from there that I start, not 'I don't understand so God is the solution'. There may come a time when we understand scientifically how life started, for me this will tell me how God did it, rather than removing Him from the process. Much in the same way that I understand evolution, the theory and understanding doesn't remove God from the process, rather I understand how life evolved, under God's sovereignty and His guidance.

 

To be fair science doesn't give definitive answers to much, it just gives the best answer that fits the evidence that is available at the moment.

 

I don't personally believe in any God and don't need there to be a reason for life to exist, but I can see the logic behind your reasoning.

[felix]

The two are not necessarily incompatible.

 

Hardline creationalists will always deny evolution but most christian churches accept to some extent, Theistic Evolution or "evolutionary creationism" - which essentially suggests God created everything & then it evolved.

[Sheriff Fatman]

The two are not necessarily incompatible.

 

Hardline creationalists will always deny evolution but most christian churches accept to some extent, Theistic Evolution or "evolutionary creationism" - which essentially suggests God created everything & then it evolved.

 

That is not Creationism. If you suggested that to the vast majority of those who class themselves as Creationists they would reject that idea.

 

If God created everything, why would anything need to evolve?

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

Indoctrination of children

 

Child abuse pure and simple

 

Lets see the same tour with free thinking adults?

[Craig R]

I want my life to have purpose and meaning, as I said, it gives me value as a human being. I am more than just a collection of atoms and chemical reactions.

 

What happens when a person dies? Nothing has changed physically, they have all the same atoms, exactly the same potential for the chemical reactions that were taking place seconds before, so where do they go?

 

It is just pure human arrogance that we demand our lives have some sort of higher meaning or purpose. We have no more meaning than a blade of grass, fungus or bacteria. We're just here to survive and enjoy our lives as best we can before we die and our corpses rot.

 

When you die, your body starts to decay. You are no longer creating new energy and your flesh will rot. The energy left in your body gets consumed by bacteria and some is released as gas during the decomposition.

[hughesie27]

Indoctrination of children

 

Child abuse pure and simple

 

Lets see the same tour with free thinking adults?

Exactly. I'm more concerned that this is going on as to the 2 actual arguments. I cringed everytime he made them 'repeat after me'. With the parents standing by watching it I was expecting one to step in but then we get the wifey at the end praising it.

[hughesie27]

It is just pure human arrogance that we demand our lives have some sort of higher meaning or purpose. We have no more meaning than a blade of grass, fungus or bacteria. We're just here to survive and enjoy our lives as best we can before we die and our corpses rot.

 

When you die, your body starts to decay. You are no longer creating new energy and your flesh will rot. The energy left in your body gets consumed by bacteria and some is released as gas during the decomposition.

Then we go to heaven, right?

[djf]

How do you know how old the earth is?

 

Well we uh, went through the bible and added everyones ages together.

[Debtor]

I used to believe in god. I suppose with the passing of time, I feel that I saw things that changed my mind.

 

One of these things was religious corruption. Not very nice to be dealing with hypocrites. But hey, that was my experience.

 

My dilema however is that there does seem to be a great degree of intelligent design in humans & animals. Who cannot marvel at the tiny little invisible egg becoming a fully formed human being with their own personality & the capacity to love?

 

Yet, I am also aware of the destructive elements of nature & the fact that the 'creation' seems to be a bit skewed. Worms that bore into a childs skin & cause blindess. Was that thing 'created'? Yes, a baby or some animal 'creation' is superb, but what about all the destructive animals?

 

It seems that if there is a god then he enjoys watching the ongoing suffering that occurs due to his creation.

 

It's all a bit odd really.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

One of the better posts from one of the better posters.

[Craig R]

How do you know how old the earth is?

 

Well we uh, went through the bible and added everyones ages together.

 

Well how scientific, ok. I didn't realise you'd gone to so much trouble, that's good.

[BlackJAC?]

Creation Theory is idiotic.

 

I am normally pretty accepting of religious people if they want to believe a story thats up to them. But its just a load of bollocks really isn't it?

 

Nope, what is idiotic, though, is people stating facts that aren't facts and can't ever be proven as facts, from either side, thus no one can really look down on those that have a differing opinion.

 

Can you or anyone else prove 100% that 'something' advanced (not someone, but something) didn't create our entire universe, or even just our galaxy for that matter? Are we humans so genetically advanced now that we are now able to comprehend the things we know nothing about?

 

Personally I think the bible is bull, however, it doesn't mean the scientists are correct in their theories too.

 

Before you go accusing me of twisting your words, I'm not, it's my overall view and isn't directed at you personally.

[felix]

That is not Creationism. If you suggested that to the vast majority of those who class themselves as Creationists they would reject that idea.

 

If God created everything, why would anything need to evolve?

 

I realise evolutionary creationalism isn't creationalism...that's why you have to separate creatonalists with the vast majority of christians (and muslims) who accept evolution.

 

It's difficult to deny evolution (unless your a mid-west bible belt flump). Only the extremely stupid attempt to.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I realise evolutionary creationalism isn't creationalism...that's why you have to separate creatonalists with the vast majority of christians (and muslims) who accept evolution.

 

It's difficult to deny evolution (unless your a mid-west bible belt flump). Only the extremely stupid attemp to.

 

You'd be suprised:

 

http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_view_tree_12.php

 

Many of the Creationist adhearents on there are anything but stupid. Wrong, yes, stupid, no.

[Maple Leaf]

While the evolutionist theory is convincing, it is just that. A theory.

 

People should read this:

 

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

 

to understand what a scientific theory is. It's much different from the layman's understanding of a theory being merely a hypotheses. In science, a theory means that it is generally accepted as being true.

 

It would be difficult to find a fully qualified biologist who rejects the Theory of Evolution, and accepts the biblical story of Creation instead. There are mavericks in all sciences, so I suppose some do exist, but they are among the tiniest of minorities.

[Moriarty]

Nope, what is idiotic, though, is people stating facts that aren't facts and can't ever be proven as facts, from either side, thus no one can really look down on those that have a differing opinion.

 

Can you or anyone else prove 100% that 'something' advanced (not someone, but something) didn't create our entire universe, or even just our galaxy for that matter? Are we humans so genetically advanced now that we are now able to comprehend the things we know nothing about?

 

Personally I think the bible is bull, however, it doesn't mean the scientists are correct in their theories too.

 

Before you go accusing me of twisting your words, I'm not, it's my overall view and isn't directed at you personally.

 

I agree that we aren't advanced enough to really know. But one thing I think is clear, the bible isn't the absolute answer, and anyone who thinks it is is clearly fruity loops. Thats what I was trying to say.

[felix]

You'd be suprised:

 

http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_view_tree_12.php

 

Many of the Creationist adhearents on there are anything but stupid. Wrong, yes, stupid, no.

 

There's a heck of a lot of views in that link.

I liked the one "Why does Atheism make you Evil"..

One poster points out atheists and non-believers "only live for the moment"..... :shocked666:

There's animals who've evolved and changed during our short time on earth. I've yet to hear a good argument why the intelligent designer didn't get it right in the first place.

[Maple Leaf]

Sorry Hughesie, can't watch the video (work firewall) so I may be missing the point, but creation theory and the theory of evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

 

The biblical story of Creation, and the scientific Theory of Evolution are mutually exclusive.

 

Creationists believe that every single species on Earth today was created by the direct actions of God and, at one time, all species shared the land, sea, and air at the same time. No species is related to any other, according to the Creationists.

 

The Theory of Evolution states that all of today's species have evolved from earlier species, and those earlier species also evolved from species that were earlier still and so on, back for hundreds of millions of years, probably billions of years. If you go back far enough, you'll find a common ancestor for any two species you can think of. According to the theory, this is proven by the fact that all living things share some common DNA.

 

The vast majority of scientists accept the Theory of Evolution. That doesn't make it right, but it's where all the evidence we have points. Every year, further evidence is added to the mountain of evidence that already exists. It's possible that one day a different theory will replace today's theory, but it's difficult to imagine that happening in the foreseeable future.

[The Doctor]

There's animals who've evolved and changed during our short time on earth. I've yet to hear a good argument why the intelligent designer didn't get it right in the first place.

 

One example might be animals evolving to cope with a change in habitat caused by man, not that the intelligent designer didn't get right, but that the environment changed and the animal adapted.

[BlackJAC?]

There's a heck of a lot of views in that link.

I liked the one "Why does Atheism make you Evil"..

One poster points out atheists and non-believers "only live for the moment"..... :shocked666:

There's animals who've evolved and changed during our short time on earth. I've yet to hear a good argument why the intelligent designer didn't get it right in the first place.

 

 

And this being the most interesting and recent example:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

[Maple Leaf]

And this being the most interesting and recent example:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

 

It could be argued, of course, that while the example of the Spotted Moth demonstrates adaptation through natural selection, it falls short of proving that the same process is how new species originate.

[Ulysses]

My dilema however is that there does seem to be a great degree of intelligent design in humans & animals. Who cannot marvel at the tiny little invisible egg becoming a fully formed human being with their own personality & the capacity to love?

 

When you see the complexity of the universe and the living things in it, and marvel at them, it is tempting to suppose that they must have been intelligently designed and created.

 

Once we suppose that, the logic of our position surely dictates that if very complex things were intelligently designed and created, they must have been designed and created by an intelligent creator.

 

At that point we generally make the assumption that this intelligent creator was "God". Most theist (or deist) belief systems work on that assumption. The details change a little from culture to culture and from age to age, but the fundamental principle is the same.

 

To design and create this astonishing and complex universe, the intelligent creator must be (or have been) even more complex and astonishing. So we marvel at the creator. We describe the creator in spiritual terms. We say the creator must exist outside our known and describable dimensions of time and space. We credit the creator with the capacity for miracles.

 

But why do we do this? Why do we devise and use a logical process that leads us to believe in the existence of a creator - and then deny and abandon it?

 

To repeat it, the concept that leads us to believe in the existence of a creator is this: very complex things were designed and created by an intelligent creator.

 

So by our own logic - the logic of belief in "God" - the intelligent creator must have been designed and created by another intelligent creator.

[Bindy Badgy]

It's possible to believe in a creator and evolution. Ken Miller (expert witness in the Dover school trial in the side of evolution) is a catholic. As an atheist I disagree with him however, I don't have a problem with his viewpoint. I do have a problem with the idiots behind Intelligent Design.

 

Believing in evolution and a creator are not mutually exclusive.