Religeous question

[Gambo]

Don't worry mods............shouldn't be a controversial thread, just a genuine question from someone who aint to versed in religions.

 

 

If the majority of christian churches follow the word and teachings etc of Jesus, with him being a Jew, why are they not all of the jewish faith.

 

Sorry if there is a simple answer to the above, but as i have said i aint that well up in my knowledge of faiths/religions.

 

Question arose after watching a few programmes over easter that got me thinking of the above.

[cosanostra]

I'm no expert either but i'd say they follow the teachings of Christ rather than Judaism. I think Jews don't recognise the new testament wheras for Christian's, the stories of Jesus are of paramount importance to their faith and are all included in the new testament.

[Cigaro]

I always wonder why Christians follow a Jew.

[cosanostra]

I always wonder why Christians follow a Jew.

 

Judaism was obviously already a religeon and Jesus was another of the many followers. Christianity, follows the teachings of Jesus and many of the teachings of Judaism rather than just the teachings of Judaism. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and i don't think that Jews or Muslims do.

[Cigaro]

Judaism was obviously already a religeon and Jesus was another of the many followers. Christianity, follows the teachings of Jesus and many of the teachings of Judaism rather than just the teachings of Judaism. Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and i don't think that Jews or Muslims do.

 

Fair enough.

 

Not a great religion follower so never bother finding out these things.

[Craigieboy]

The Jewish system or way of worship consisted of literally hundreds of laws.

 

All of that way of worship was 'nailed to the cross/stake' when JC died. The reason that he came through the Jewish line was because of a promise made by god to Abraham hundreds of years earlier.

 

A person putting their faith in JC had to be baptised in water by total immersion, which in effect changed them from being a Jew (or living as a jew) to being a christian.

 

I'd imagine that living as a christian allows a bit more freedom than that of the Jew. If you read the OT and some of the NT regarding what the Jews were like or their practices, it is unbelievable.

 

Anyone for a bit stoning?

 

PS - they are not all of the Jewish faith because the bible says that god rejected them for killing his son. Hence Jerusalem being destroyed by the Roman armies around 70AD. The very seat of Jewish religion at the time.

.

[jambo_ellen]

Going to War over Religion...

Its basically killing one another...

To see who's got the better imaginary friend!!!

[Cigaro]

Going to War over Religion...

Its basically killing one another...

To see who's got the better imaginary friend!!!

 

I laughed:laugh:

[chester copperpot]

God bless the pope, the UVF, the taliban, the Basra freedom fighters etc etc.

 

Hate religion, I love hearts, just hearts, is that so bad.

 

My religion is hearts, all else can GTF.

[PsychocAndy]

Going to War over Religion...

Its basically killing one another...

To see who's got the better imaginary friend!!!

 

As someone who believes in God I'd hope He like me will be pishing Himself. Lovely

[Sheriff Fatman]

All of that way of worship was 'nailed to the cross/stake' when JC died.

 

So why did he say "Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved."?

[Eckauskas]

I was always told it was because the Jews didn't believe that Jesus was their messiah.

 

Christianity spawned from those who did believe Jesus to be a messiah.

[cosanostra]

I was always told it was because the Jews didn't believe that Jesus was their messiah.

 

Christianity spawned from those who did believe Jesus to be a messiah.

 

He was not the messiah, he was a very naughty boy.

[Eckauskas]

He was not the messiah, he was a very naughty boy.

 

Yes he was, and I should know.

 

I've followed a few.

[The Doctor]

So why did he say "Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved."?

 

Ok, I'll deal with this one first.

 

Jesus teaching doesn't change the law, it completes it. All the law has power to do is show people where they're going wrong, following Jesus should mean that His followers get it right.

 

As many posters have said the OT, specifically the first five books (or Torah) contains many covenants (agreements) between God and man (specifically the Jews who were the God followers). You have the rainbow after the flood where God promised never to wipe out mankind again, circumcision, which signifies God's covenant with Abram (who at this point is renamed Abraham) that he would be the father of God's people and that they would worship Him. (You will be my people and I will be your God) Then you've got the 10 commandments, the covenant with David (of David and Goliath fame) and loads more.

 

All of these covenants, designed to bring about a relationship between God and His people were superceded by Jesus sacrificial death on the cross, bringing redemption (the forgiveness of sin which seperates us from God and spoils that relationship) and peace with God. This new covenant is what Christians believe in and what they remember at communion (also known as eucharist or mass in the Roman Catholic church) where they eat bread and drink wine which symbolises the body and blood of Jesus, sacrificed for anyone who believes and follows Him.

 

Testament means covenant, so you have the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, Jews follow the Old Covenant. Christians, believing that Jesus was the messiah (or chosen one) follow the New Covenant.

 

Jesus was not a Christian (he was a Jew) and the early church would not have recognised themselves like that, they were Jews who had accepted this new covenant and believed that Jesus' death bought them forgiveness and a new relationship with their Creator.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

God bless the pope, the UVF, the taliban, the Basra freedom fighters etc etc.

 

Hate religion, I love hearts, just hearts, is that so bad.

 

My religion is hearts, all else can GTF.

 

bigot;)

[Sheriff Fatman]

Ok, I'll deal with this one first.

 

Jesus teaching doesn't change the law, it completes it. All the law has power to do is show people where they're going wrong, following Jesus should mean that His followers get it right.

 

That I find to be a highly arrogant attitude. Especially as the vast majority of Christian thought and tradition has zero to do with Jesus, but to do with the interpretations of people who never met him and supplanting other religions by borrowing their traditions.

 

Jesus said he was not there to change or abolish one single Law, in fact not one single Law would be changed or abolished until it's role was accomplished or Heaven and Earth finished.

[The Doctor]

That I find to be a highly arrogant attitude. Especially as the vast majority of Christian thought and tradition has zero to do with Jesus, but to do with the interpretations of people who never met him and supplanting other religions by borrowing their traditions.

 

Jesus said he was not there to change or abolish one single Law, in fact not one single Law would be changed or abolished until it's role was accomplished or Heaven and Earth finished.

 

Am I highly arrogant or is it Pauline theology that you have a problem with?

 

I was actually thinking of the covenant prophecied in Jeremiah 31:33 (I will write the law on their hearts, quoted in Hebrews 8) which I believe was a prophecy of the new covenant.

 

What Jesus said, if you read the full quote, was that he had not come to change the law but to fulfill it. As I said, Jesus completes the law in achieving what the law does not have the power have to do, to change lives.

 

(Haven't we had this conversation before SF?)

[Sheriff Fatman]

Am I highly arrogant or is it Pauline theology that you have a problem with?

 

I was actually thinking of the covenant prophecied in Jeremiah 31:33 (I will write the law on their hearts, quoted in Hebrews 8) which I believe was a prophecy of the new covenant.

 

What Jesus said, if you read the full quote, was that he had not come to change the law but to fulfill it. As I said, Jesus completes the law in achieving what the law does not have the power have to do, to change lives.

 

(Haven't we had this conversation before SF?)

 

Pauline theory, not you.

[The Doctor]

Pauline theory, not you.

 

Cool!

 

So we can stay mates then?

 

I must admit I struggled for years to accept much of Pauline theology, I had a suspicion that Christian faith as we (as I) understand it could be a construct of a brilliant and clever man and I began to discount much of what Paul wrote. ( I do not believe that Paul wrote all of the books accredited to him, but that he wrote some of all of the NT after Acts, with the possible exception of Revelation. A learned theologian friend of mine, a professor, once told me that he believed Paul wrote some of all but all of none)

 

This had a quite a negative effect on my faith, as you can imagine and it wasn't until I came to accept, by faith, that Paul was a true apostle and that he had been given a gospel of sorts, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to share with Jesus' followers. Now you might reject that idea, it sounds naive, even cultish, but if I was choosing to be a Christian, if I really believed that Jesus was alive and made a difference in my life I had to do something to address this crisis of faith. I wasn't prepared to lose my faith, it meant too much to me. So I made a choice to accept Paul's position as an apostle and as a God inspired messenger of the truth, by faith.

 

That may look like burying my head in the sand and I understand where that interpretation of my choice comes from, but for me, not addressing this crisis I had, particularly because I was at bible college at the time, would have been burying my head!

 

Jesus, I had a conviction, a revelation of the truth of His person and His promise.

 

Paul, I had to make a decision on and choose to believe in.

[Sheriff Fatman]

with the possible exception of Revelation.

That was one of the Johns wasn't it?

 

Personally I doubt any of the books after the Gospels were written by one author, and I highly doubt the Gospels were written by the apostles whose names have become attached to them.

[Scallywag]

Seeing there are a couple of people here who seem to know their bible stuff, I would be very interested to know your views on the following:

 

I have been reading recently about pre-christian religions and am astounded at the similarities between these religions (particularly pagan) and the stories included in the bible. I have a fairly open mind on the subject but almost every story/idea in the bible can be found in religions pre-dating christianity.

 

What is particularly suprising is the amount of Jesus type figures who live almost identical lives......ie, virgin births, teacher, crucifixion, resurrection. I realise this is a huge subject but I would be interested if you have any views.

[K1874M]

Because they make it up as they go along...

[Craigieboy]

Seeing there are a couple of people here who seem to know their bible stuff, I would be very interested to know your views on the following:

 

I have been reading recently about pre-christian religions and am astounded at the similarities between these religions (particularly pagan) and the stories included in the bible. I have a fairly open mind on the subject but almost every story/idea in the bible can be found in religions pre-dating christianity.

 

What is particularly suprising is the amount of Jesus type figures who live almost identical lives......ie, virgin births, teacher, crucifixion, resurrection. I realise this is a huge subject but I would be interested if you have any views.

 

In actual fact, most of the 'christian' traditions/holidays that people celebrate today are steeped in paganism. It's laughable when you consider that 'inspired' scripture says that a christian must be 'without spot from the world'. Easter, christmas, the cross, infant baptism & a whole load of other stuff has been borrowed from the 'world' of paganism or other cultures.

 

If I were a practicing christian, I would be asking why a lot of the practices & particularly the celebrations have absolutely no basis in the bible. Rather, they have made up their own or borrowed stuff from elsewhere & effectively polluted what is essentially a good thing.

 

Religion, like most other things has simply evolved as people have made it up and/or changed it as they have went along. In most cases to have authority over or worse, control their people.

 

.

[Boris]

Seeing there are a couple of people here who seem to know their bible stuff, I would be very interested to know your views on the following:

 

I have been reading recently about pre-christian religions and am astounded at the similarities between these religions (particularly pagan) and the stories included in the bible. I have a fairly open mind on the subject but almost every story/idea in the bible can be found in religions pre-dating christianity.

 

What is particularly suprising is the amount of Jesus type figures who live almost identical lives......ie, virgin births, teacher, crucifixion, resurrection. I realise this is a huge subject but I would be interested if you have any views.

 

If you keep to the same basic story as everyone else but adapt it to your own ends then it makes it more palatable when converting the "savages"...

[Scallywag]

My understanding of the bible is that it is full of geometary, astrology and hidding meanings.

 

Many of the stories are clearly symbolic yet the main religions exam the wordings like a legal document, picking and choosing the bits that support their veiws. It's no wonder it leads to war.

[The Doctor]

My understanding of the bible is that it is full of geometary, astrology and hidding meanings.

 

Can you tie a bow?

[Sherlock]

It has served us well, this myth of Christ - Pope Leo X

[Scallywag]

Interesting read Legend, I note the bit about Baptism being an empty Religious practice.

 

I think Baptism originates from Egypt. When the Nile flooded in spring time this would trigger the re-birth of crops and plants once the water subsided. The people therefore equated being submerged with water as a return to the womb therefore baptism is symbolic of re-birth.

[2NaFish]

jesus came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

 

apparently.

[flecktimus]

Because they make it up as they go along... [/QUO]

With you on that one

[mac]

In actual fact, most of the 'christian' traditions/holidays that people celebrate today are steeped in paganism. It's laughable when you consider that 'inspired' scripture says that a christian must be 'without spot from the world'. Easter, christmas, the cross, infant baptism & a whole load of other stuff has been borrowed from the 'world' of paganism or other cultures.

 

If I were a practicing christian, I would be asking why a lot of the practices & particularly the celebrations have absolutely no basis in the bible. Rather, they have made up their own or borrowed stuff from elsewhere & effectively polluted what is essentially a good thing.

 

Religion, like most other things has simply evolved as people have made it up and/or changed it as they have went along. In most cases to have authority over or worse, control their people.

 

.

That's it in a nutshell, Stairboy - religion must have control, while science trys to help.

[Sherlock]

That's it in a nutshell, Stairboy - religion must have control, while science trys to help.

 

'I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.' - Galileo Galilei

 

'Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.' - Voltaire

 

'Our ignorance is God; what we know is science.' - Robert G. Ingersoll

 

'Religions are like fireflies. They require darkness in order to shine.' - Arthur Schopenhauer

 

Two other quotes worth noting....

 

'If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine - but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good - and CARES about any of it - to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.' - Frank Zappa

 

'Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder.' - Homer Simpson

[The Doctor]

"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

 

"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing — they believe in anything."

 

Two of my favourite quotes from G.K. Chesterton.

[Scallywag]

I suppose the question is what makes the Christian God any different from the 20,000 or so other gods worshipped by religion.

 

PS: Doctor I didn't thank you for answering my question on your belief in the Bible. A very honest response and one that I can understand fully even though I don't share the same beliefs.