help needed(history)

[kevinref]

going to a union conference next month and some one has put in a proposition

to be discussed,and i need some feedback to go against this

 

here is the proposition,

 

This ADM believes the number of bank holidays in this country is insufficient and should be increased,but without jeopardising workers existing holidays,Gordon Brown wants to encourage Britishness,so what better way than to make St Georges day a bank holiday, Which also happens to be the birth date of our greatest literary icon William Shakespeare. or possibly Trafalgar day in october to mark Britain's greatest naval victory. Diana Day would also be popular.

Unlike a lot of other countries,we do not have national holidays to honour popular or cultural icons.Why not?,we should have more time off as we work the longest hours in Europe.

 

now i am not against the idea but it stinks of englishness

I mean William Shakespeare a literary icon surely more people have read J K Rowland than him? are there any decent writers from wales or ireland

Travalgar day didnt nelson say every englishman should do his duty

have we had a naval battle just as big? with welsh,scottish and irish sailors

and Diana Day is just absurd not everyone is a royalist

 

I need a list of famous writers not english

any decent naval battlesinvolving britain

or any land battles in Wales,Ireland and scotland that defeated the english

and a day that would suit everyone not just the royalists

 

Hopefully you guys/ Ladies can help me out here

[doctor jambo]

A vast number of Scots sailors fought at Trafalgar- proportionally over represented compared to the English population wise

J K Rowling may be popular , but compared to shakespeare is illiterate and will have little to no longevity

Your argument smacks of Scots small mindedness

[Say What Again]

I need a list of famous writers not english

 

Scottish:

 

J. M. Barrie

Robert Burns

Robert Louis Stevenson

Sir Walter Scott

Arthur Conan Doyle

 

 

Welsh:

 

Roald Dahl

Dylan Thomas

 

 

 

and a day that would suit everyone not just the royalists

 

there already is one

[cotter]

You do know J K Rowling is English?

[kevinref]

 

 

 

 

there already is one

 

I dont think that one would be acceptable

[kevinref]

Your argument smacks of Scots small mindedness

 

it may be scots small mindedness to you, but the person putting the proposal forward is so anti scottish, for once i would just like to argue back at him that everything does not stop at hadrians wall

[Jambojohnnyboy]

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2119258.0.scottish_government_staff_to_have_st_andrews_day_holiday.php

[Boris]

Kev,

 

If you look at France and the USA their national holidays, Bastille Day and Independence Day, are days that mark momentous political change (freedom?) for that nation.

 

In France's case the overthrow of absolute monarchy and the introduction of Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite.

 

For the Americans it was the birth of nation. A new Republic with a constitution safeguarding the rights of man.

 

Does the UK have an equivalent? I think it does.

 

The only politically siesmic event that has affected the UK, ney the British Isles, to the same extent as the French Revolution or the American Revolution is in my opinion an event that preceded both of these events and in no small way influenced them and that is the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

 

A political change that put the power of parliament above that of the monarch.

 

Date to celebrate? Controversially, the 12th of July would seem appropriate. This date though would be unpalatable for many due to the obvious conotations that this date produces.

 

Or you could have the 16th April. The date of the Battle of Culloden. The battle that finally extinguished the Stewart's vain attempt to reintroduce absolute monarchy to the now United Kingdom and once and for all cemented the Parliamentary system of government.

[Tazio]

What about Doris Day?

[Boris]

What about Doris Day?

 

 

Do you think West Ham fans celebrate Mervyn Day?

[MacDonald Jardine]

Kev,

 

If you look at France and the USA their national holidays, Bastille Day and Independence Day, are days that mark momentous political change (freedom?) for that nation.

 

In France's case the overthrow of absolute monarchy and the introduction of Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite.

 

For the Americans it was the birth of nation. A new Republic with a constitution safeguarding the rights of man.

 

Does the UK have an equivalent? I think it does.

 

The only politically siesmic event that has affected the UK, ney the British Isles, to the same extent as the French Revolution or the American Revolution is in my opinion an event that preceded both of these events and in no small way influenced them and that is the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

 

A political change that put the power of parliament above that of the monarch.

 

Date to celebrate? Controversially, the 12th of July would seem appropriate. This date though would be unpalatable for many due to the obvious conotations that this date produces.

 

Or you could have the 16th April. The date of the Battle of Culloden. The battle that finally extinguished the Stewart's vain attempt to reintroduce absolute monarchy to the now United Kingdom and once and for all cemented the Parliamentary system of government.

 

Light the blue touch paper and stand back

[Say What Again]

Do you think West Ham fans celebrate Mervyn Day?

 

Or The Pips mark Gladys Knight?

[Boris]

Light the blue touch paper and stand back

 

That's the sad thing about our country - too much baggage attached to things that when looked at rationally actually make sense!

 

The parallels between the national days in France & the US are striking!

[Coco]

Not sure which day you would choose, but the most striking event in British history is the Industrial Revolution.

 

Truly changed the world.

 

Have been reading an interesting book which suggests that the biggest beneficiaries of the industrial revolution were not the owners of capital (contrary to the thoughts of the likes of Marx and Engels) - but the unskilled workers.

 

The industrial revolution led to the first rises in real wages for unskilled workers for 600 years!

[bn jambo]

This may seem a bit obvious but you could have an extra 3-4 holiday dates, st andrews , st davids, st georges and maybe st patricks day, if you want to make these dates into a national i.e british thing then everyone in all four countries gets a day of on all these dates?

 

you have Northern irish who would be happy of paddy's day no matter where they are in the uk, and scottish in england and wales , welsh in other parts of the country etc etc etc

 

It's just a suggestion to the OP, that is all, not a reflection of my politics, but a way to increase bank holidays/national holidays in Britain.

[super_vlad]

That's the sad thing about our country - too much baggage attached to things that when looked at rationally actually make sense!

 

The parallels between the national days in France & the US are striking!

 

Sorry mate, i agree with you about the importances of the events but can you think of celtic **** getting a day off because of king billy!

[Boris]

The industrial revolution led to the first rises in real wages for unskilled workers for 600 years!

 

At the whim of their Capitalist masters though.

[Coco]

At the whim of their Capitalist masters though.

 

Well it is clearly a philosophical question as to whether it is better to be richer but at the whim of Capital and Government; or poorer but with all the freedom you want ...

 

I think you might like the book - called A Farewell To Alms. Lots of interesting points and controversial thoughts.

[gadgey55]

The 1st day of summer should be celebrated as rerr day.

 

[I P Knightley]

Sorry mate, i agree with you about the importances of the events but can you think of celtic **** getting a day off because of king billy!

 

Possibly the best reason to propose it?

[Boris]

Well it is clearly a philosophical question as to whether it is better to be richer but at the whim of Capital and Government; or poorer but with all the freedom you want ...

 

I think you might like the book - called A Farewell To Alms. Lots of interesting points and controversial thoughts.

 

I will check that one out Coco.

 

Thanks.

 

p.s. is it the Trudeau book or the Clark one? There are two on Amazon coming up with the same title...

[Coco]

I will check that one out Coco.

 

Thanks.

 

p.s. is it the Trudeau book or the Clark one? There are two on Amazon coming up with the same title...

 

Gregory Clark if I remember right. Fair bit of economic theory in there, but some very interesting points.

[Boris]

Gregory Clark if I remember right. Fair bit of economic theory in there, but some very interesting points.

 

Cool! I've just ordered a copy for stock at my work!

[Era Macaroons]

Sorry to be a wet blanket but I think we actually have enough bank holidays as it is and see no need for any more.

 

And can you all work a little bit harder please.

[super_vlad]

The 1st day of summer should be celebrated as rerr day.

 

 

We would have to wait for gobal warming to kick in to get a day off !

[Sharpie]

One that would be popular particularly with employers would be Hibs won the Cup Day. It would only have to be given every ? hundred years.

[kevinref]

One that would be popular particularly with employers would be Hibs won the Cup Day. It would only have to be given every ? hundred years.

 

that means that the poor worker has missed a holiday

[Ulysses]

Warning - long post!

 

After 27 years of trade union activism, my advice to you can be summarised as follows:

 

• 
  
• Know your objective
  
• Know your audience
  
• Know your procedures
  
• Keep it relevant
  
• Keep it simple
  

 

The more detailed version of that advice follows.

 

Know your objective

What are you trying to do? Are you opposed to an extra bank holiday? Or are you just opposed to a particular date, or a particular line of reasoning for the date?

 

Know your audience

More often than not, opposing "goodies" at union conferences is a waste of time. So if you like the idea but not the date or line of reasoning, you need to approach the problem at a 90-degree angle rather than go for a head on collision. So don't attack the idea of an extra holiday - try to undermine whatever it is you don't like about the motion by raising doubts in the mind of the audience about whether the idea as proposed is a good one.

 

Know your procedures

Union conference issues are frequently won by the delegations who can best understand and use their conference procedures. Check your rules in case you have time to propose an amendment to the original motion. An amendment is often the best way to get your way at a conference - you're supporting the principle, but suggesting practical improvements.

 

If the procedures don't let you submit an amendment, check the procedures for remitting motions. Most unions have a procedure, rule or standing order that allows motions to be remitted to their management committee. The idea behind this is that you speak in favour of the sentiments of the motion, but constructively criticise the stuff you don't like (e.g. the proposed date and timing). You say that you don't want the motion to be defeated, but that you don't want the union bound by a Conference policy decision about the aspects you don't like. Accordingly, you propose that the motion be remitted to the management committee on the basis that Conference approves of the idea but wishes to leave the specifics of implementing the idea up to the management committee.

 

Keep it relevant

At a union conference, "relevant" means two things: relevant to your objective; and relevant to your audience. Don't take a scattergun approach to arguing for your objective. Only include the arguments that really help you kill the motion, or amend it, or remit it, depending on which of these you want to do.

 

And use arguments that will matter to and appeal to the delegates. For example, imagine that you're speaking to a hall full of English delegates who are gung-ho for an extra bank holiday. Calling for them to reject the motion will be unpopular. Complaining about definitions of "British", "English" or "Scottish" will make them think you are opposing the holiday for the wrong reasons. Making loads of references to Scottish/Welsh/Irish culture and literature will bore them. But they might give you a hearing if you tell them that a bank holiday on St. George's Day is a bad idea because it's half way between Easter and the May holiday, and suggest that a bank holiday in mid-July (or whatever date you have in mind) would be more popular with the members.

 

Keep it simple

Above all else, keep it simple. In other words, don't rabbit on the way I'm doing now. You aren't there to take up loads of your time and that of the delegates. You aren't there to sound clever, or "educate" the conference. You're there to win - and winning means getting together a maximum of 1 or 2 short, snappy and memorable points that will persuade them to do......

 

....whatever it is you decided you wanted done in "know your objective" bit.

 

Er, hope this helps.

[2NaFish]

Not sure which day you would choose, but the most striking event in British history is the Industrial Revolution.

 

Truly changed the world.

 

Have been reading an interesting book which suggests that the biggest beneficiaries of the industrial revolution were not the owners of capital (contrary to the thoughts of the likes of Marx and Engels) - but the unskilled workers.

 

The industrial revolution led to the first rises in real wages for unskilled workers for 600 years!

 

luckily most real historians would argue that marx and engels don't know much about interpreting history.

 

And despite a, possible, rise in real wages the general standard of living for the majority of the labouring class fell dramatically during the hundred and fifty years - or so - during which the industrial revolution took place.

 

still, due to its primarily economic foundations any conclusion on the outcomes of the IR revoltuon are futile as it is tied in with too many intangibles.