Andres Iniesta - top ten?

[Budgie.]

Has Andres Iniesta done enough over the past couple of seasons to secure his place amongst the top ten greatest midfielders of all time?

 

Or does he have to perform at a world class level for more than two or three years?

 

Going by most websites the top twenty midfielders of all time looks something like this:

 

Michel Platini

Johann Cryuff

Zinedine Zidane

Jean Tigana

Lothar Mattheus

Frank Rijkaard

Bobby Charlton

Gerson

Pep Guardiola

Zico

Marco Tardelli

Falcao

Gianni Rivera

Rivelino

Didi

Xavi

Johan Neeskens

Dave McKay

Michael Laudrup

Clarence Seedorf

Bryan Robson

 

If Iniesta were to retire tomorrow, where would he be ranked?

[Juan Rom?n Riquelme]

He will be up there by the end of his career.

[Budgie.]

He will be up there by the end of his career.

 

I agree, he is only 26 and has the potential to get even better which is scary.

[Dave Spacey]

I agree, he is only 26 and has the potential to get even better which is scary.

 

He's only 26? christ he looks a lot older than that. He is definately in my top ten. One of the greateset playmaker/passers of the ball I've ever seen. But He's one of the players who I think will always be overlooked in favour of his team mates (messi).

 

Tbh the whole Barcelona midfield Iniesta, Xavi, etc. I'd be interested to see what they are without having world class strikers in front of them.

[Charlie-Brown]

No offence but Jeeso what a ridiculous list the OP put together - completely biased and weighted towards players from the last 30 years with only Charlton & McKay as exceptions.

[Ben Dover]

No offence but Jeeso what a ridiculous list the OP put together - completely biased and weighted towards players from the last 30 years with only Charlton & McKay as exceptions.

 

 

I think a couple of WC or EC final showings will cement his name up there but I think he's one of life more unsung players is he not, the ones that allow others to showboat to some degree while they carry one with some quiet but class work !

 

Watched Alex Song on Wednesday night and how many times did he take a ball under pressure and sidestep / drive his way to out to gain space and time

[Ross21]

No Giggs in that list? He's above Iniesta IMO

[Ross21]

No Giggs in that list? He's above Iniesta IMO

[hmfc_liam06]

No Giggs in that list? He's above Iniesta IMO

 

Giggs isn't a central midfielder.

[upthehill]

The issue is not the absence of Giggs, the issue is the absence of Paul Scholes

[Homme]

The OP has already said the list isn't his opinion. Just a collection of players who make it into these lists.

 

Iniesta is top 20 atm. If he continues his career in this fashion he could be top ten.

 

 

[rudi must stay]

Top 50 possibly, Xavi is more deserving of a place there. He's been playing longer and is a more talented footballer IMO.

[PsychocAndy]

Wesley Sneijder. Will be up there too and if Scholes is missing from that list, him too.

[Budgie.]

No offence but Jeeso what a ridiculous list the OP put together - completely biased and weighted towards players from the last 30 years with only Charlton & McKay as exceptions.

 

 

Last 30 years

Zidane

Mattheus

Guardiola

Xavi

Laudrup

Seedorf

Rijkaard

Falcao

Tigana

Playini

Tardelli

Zico

 

More than 30 years ago

Didi 1950s

Gerson 1960s

Neeskens 1970s

McKay 1960s

Charlton 1960s

Rivera 1960s

Rivelino 1970s

Cruyff 1970s

[Debut 4]

What sticks out for me in the lists above is that a huge proportion of the names mentioned scored goals regularly for that position.

 

Does Iniesta? I could be totally wrong but when i think of regular goalscoring mids his name doesn`t spring to mind. I do follow football in general like everyone else and catch who`s doing what in other countries. However, apologies if im wrong on this.

 

Otherwise, he is a terrific player in every other aspect.

[milky_26]

Guardiola and xavi who are on the list in the op, have a quote accredited as being said from guardiola to xavi about a young iniesta, "You will retire me, but Iniesta will retire us both".

 

that says it all to me, yes he will get in the top 20 possibly top 10, but IMO he is just outside ATM.

[PsychocAndy]

Might not be a great goal scorer but he does pop up with important goals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-ZGbvNHzf4

and if he never scores again in his life he will always be the guy that got the World Cup for Spain

[Fort Vallance]

Iniesta is pure quality but in my opinion Xavi is every bit as good if not better.

[Charlie-Brown]

 

Last 30 years

Zidane

Mattheus

Guardiola

Xavi

Laudrup

Seedorf

Rijkaard

Falcao

Tigana

Playini

Tardelli

Zico

 

More than 30 years ago

Didi 1950s

Gerson 1960s

Neeskens 1970s

McKay 1960s

Charlton 1960s

Rivera 1960s

Rivelino 1970s

Cruyff 1970s

 

 

So you really think that 12 players from the last 30 years compared to 8 from the previous 110 years history of football (although actually only 30 years) is representive and accurate of the best players of ALL TIME?

 

So what you are basically saying is that modern football is vastly superior in every respect - ie in terms of ability & entertainment and not just improved fitness or physique?

[Budgie.]

So you really think that 12 players from the last 30 years compared to 8 from the previous 110 years history of football (although actually only 30 years) is representive and accurate of the best players of ALL TIME?

 

So what you are basically saying is that modern football is vastly superior in every respect - ie in terms of ability & entertainment and not just improved fitness or physique?

 

No, I don't. These are the players who make it onto most online lists, as pointed out in post #11.

 

I think the fact that so many greats from the early 20th century are missing (the likes of Jose Andrade and Luis Monti) from these online lists further emphasises the point that it is pretty ridiculous to name Iniesta within the top ten of all time.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Good try but why is this poll not about the difference in quality between fabregas and iniesta? Where i rank iniesta is irrelevant in the debate. Make another poll please.

[Budgie.]

Good try but why is this poll not about the difference in quality between fabregas and iniesta? Where i rank iniesta is irrelevant in the debate. Make another poll please.

 

You said "iniesta is one of the top ten greatest midfielders of all time" This poll deals with that statement.

 

If you want to make a poll to guage opinion on the difference between fabregas and iniesta be my guest. While you're here though I think you'll find the significant majority disagree with you on the poll.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

 

The argument on the thread was whether or not Fabregas was as good as Xavi and Iniesta. It is my opinion that he is within the top 10, that wasn't the debate until you realised you were wrong about Fabregas and tried to turn it into that.

 

58% of the vote believe he is in the top 20 of all time. The stats don't lie.

[Budgie.]

 

The argument on the thread was whether or not Fabregas was as good as Xavi and Iniesta. It is my opinion that he is within the top 10, that wasn't the debate until you realised you were wrong about Fabregas and tried to turn it into that.

 

58% of the vote believe he is in the top 20 of all time. The stats don't lie.

 

The stats don't lie but you sure do.

 

You made an embarrassing exaggeration and you aren't man enough to admit it. Says it all.

 

The exact argument on the other thread was that you stated "fabregas couldn't lace iniestas boots" and you tried to support that argument with your top ten nonsense. Fact.

[Charlie-Brown]

The lists of best EVER are worthless if they exclude players from 70% of footballs history - you'd be better asking is Iniesta or whoever in the top ten players that anybody can remember? Unfortunately most simpletons like Man Utd loving fans have the memory and attention span of a goldfish and anybody who plays for Man Utd and is their current best player automatically becomes THE best in the world EVER ... Rooney, C.Ronaldo, Beckham etc etc.

[rossthejambo]

He's one of the best central midfielders in my memory. Top 5 even with Xavi, Zidane, Scholes, Guardiola (All IMO of course)

 

He's better than Fabregas, there's no doubt about that, as is Xavi.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

The stats don't lie but you sure do.

 

You made an embarrassing exaggeration and you aren't man enough to admit it. Says it all.

 

:lol:

 

What exactly am I lying?

 

I claimed Xavi and Iniesta are FAR better and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. You piled in with some meaningless stats on international appearances etc. Your argument seems to be based on Fabregas having two more nominations for World Player of the Year yet you completely ignore Xavi and Iniesta have both finished higher in the vote than he has ever finished. You claimed Mednieta and Beckham were better than Iniesta ffs. How can I win against someone so deluded?

 

The problem here is you are looking at everything through Arsenal tinted glasses and I'm not. I also know you are like a dog with a bone due to your Gorgie Loyal campaign so I'm afraid if you aren't going to debate the actual argument instead of side arguments and calling me a liar I'll have to call it a day.

 

I'll leave you with quotes to mull over:

 

"I don't think Iniesta and Xavi have ever given the ball away in their lives." Sir Alex Ferguson

 

Guardiola watched Iniesta play as a youth and once told Xavi, ?You will retire me, but he will retire all of us.? The Barcelona coach calls him the model professional. ?I always told the kids to use him as an example ? he doesn?t have earrings, doesn?t dye his hair, no tattoos,? he said. ?But we all know he is the best player we have.? Pep Guardiola

 

"Do they deserve the Ballon d'Or? None of us here doubt this. They are both the best in the world," Del Bosque on Iniesta and Xavi

 

[rossthejambo]

:lol:

 

What exactly am I lying?

 

I claimed Xavi and Iniesta are FAR better and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. You piled in with some meaningless stats on international appearances etc. Your argument seems to be based on Fabregas having two more nominations for World Player of the Year yet you completely ignore Xavi and Iniesta have both finished higher in the vote than he has ever finished. You claimed Mendieta and Beckham were better than Iniesta ffs. How can I win against someone so deluded?

 

The problem here is you are looking at everything through Arsenal tinted glasses and I'm not. I also know you are like a dog with a bone due to your Gorgie Loyal campaign so I'm afraid if you aren't going to debate the actual argument instead of side arguments and calling me a liar I'll have to call it a day.

 

I'll leave you with quotes to mull over:

 

"I don't think Iniesta and Xavi have ever given the ball away in their lives." Sir Alex Ferguson

 

Guardiola watched Iniesta play as a youth and once told Xavi, ?You will retire me, but he will retire all of us.? The Barcelona coach calls him the model professional. ?I always told the kids to use him as an example ? he doesn?t have earrings, doesn?t dye his hair, no tattoos,? he said. ?But we all know he is the best player we have.? Pep Guardiola

 

"Do they deserve the Ballon d'Or? None of us here doubt this. They are both the best in the world," Del Bosque on Iniesta and Xavi

 

 

And there ends any arguement

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

And by the way only 4 people agree with you that he has to do it for a few more years to be considered a great. The vast majority know he is already one of the greatest.

 

4 people. You would have voted as well so make it 3.

 

3 people.

[Budgie.]

And by the way only 4 people agree with you that he has to do it for a few more years to be considered a great. The vast majority know he is already one of the greatest.

 

4 people. You would have voted as well so make it 3.

 

3 people.

 

When i get home later i'll post an exact poll regarding your opinion that "fabregas isn't fit to lace iniesta's boots"

 

As for this poll, i voted top 50.

[Charlie-Brown]

Years ago Xavi & Iniesta would have been booted into submission as red card were far less frequent than they are now, they are undoubtedly incredibly talented players with the ball and their awareness of space & positioning and quick passing to keep the ball away from opponents is awesome - but you can't help think though that some of the more traditional midfield hardmen of yesteryear - many of whom were also great players would simply have intimidated and knocked them about far more often than players would get away with now.

[BASIL_HEARTS]

thought Paul Scholes would have been there

[P-Dizzle]

When i get home later i'll post an exact poll regarding your opinion that "fabregas isn't fit to lace iniesta's boots"

 

As for this poll, i voted top 50.

 

 

Post all the polls you like, it doesn't change anything. If you really think that Fabregas is playing at the same level to Xavi and Iniesta right now, you're off your nut.

[Charlie-Brown]

 

Post all the polls you like, it doesn't change anything. If you really think that Fabregas is playing at the same level to Xavi and Iniesta right now, you're off your nut.

 

He can't be very far off their level though as they are both desperately keen for him to (re)join Barca as soon as possible!

[P-Dizzle]

He can't be very far off their level though as they are both desperately keen for him to (re)join Barca as soon as possible!

 

I think he will become a great player, but he's not there right now. It's clear to see why Barca want him, as he's someone who's played a good style of football his entire career, he's a product of their youth system and would fit in very well. But he wouldn't push either of those two out the side, and he'd have to do a lot to get a starting place there or with Spain.

 

I mean, if Spain are using Fabregas as a substitute, when he'd probably start for any country in the world, how much does that say about the ability of Xavi and Iniesta?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

When i get home later i'll post an exact poll regarding your opinion that "fabregas isn't fit to lace iniesta's boots"As for this poll, i voted top 50.

 

You do that. It was Xavi and Iniesta by the way. Hate to break it to you but even if the poll was in my favour it wouldn't matter because it is just the opinions of some people on the internet. You don't have a strong enough argument so you are trying to get the majority to side with you. Come back to me with a strong enough argument instead of meaningless polls.

 

Years ago Xavi & Iniesta would have been booted into submission as red card were far less frequent than they are now, they are undoubtedly incredibly talented players with the ball and their awareness of space & positioning and quick passing to keep the ball away from opponents is awesome - but you can't help think though that some of the more traditional midfield hardmen of yesteryear - many of whom were also great players would simply have intimidated and knocked them about far more often than players would get away with now.

 

 

Here's another cliche for you then. Players of yesteryear wouldn't get near Xavi and Inesta because they are twice as fit and technically superior.

[Amjam]

Years ago Xavi & Iniesta would have been booted into submission as red card were far less frequent than they are now, they are undoubtedly incredibly talented players with the ball and their awareness of space & positioning and quick passing to keep the ball away from opponents is awesome - but you can't help think though that some of the more traditional midfield hardmen of yesteryear - many of whom were also great players would simply have intimidated and knocked them about far more often than players would get away with now.

 

The Dutch failed to do that in a fairly big game not so long ago.

[Charlie-Brown]

The Dutch failed to do that in a fairly big game not so long ago.

 

Piss off - the type of intimidation you see today is nowhere near what went on years ago - Iam not saying that was good or commendable but the best players had to deal with & dish out a lot rougher treatment than goes on now. Modern players are molly-coddled by comparison.

[Ryan Gosling]

:lol:

 

What exactly am I lying?

 

I claimed Xavi and Iniesta are FAR better and nothing you have said so far has convinced me otherwise. You piled in with some meaningless stats on international appearances etc. Your argument seems to be based on Fabregas having two more nominations for World Player of the Year yet you completely ignore Xavi and Iniesta have both finished higher in the vote than he has ever finished. You claimed Mednieta and Beckham were better than Iniesta ffs. How can I win against someone so deluded?

 

The problem here is you are looking at everything through Arsenal tinted glasses and I'm not. I also know you are like a dog with a bone due to your Gorgie Loyal campaign so I'm afraid if you aren't going to debate the actual argument instead of side arguments and calling me a liar I'll have to call it a day.

 

I'll leave you with quotes to mull over:

 

"I don't think Iniesta and Xavi have ever given the ball away in their lives." Sir Alex Ferguson

 

Guardiola watched Iniesta play as a youth and once told Xavi, ?You will retire me, but he will retire all of us.? The Barcelona coach calls him the model professional. ?I always told the kids to use him as an example ? he doesn?t have earrings, doesn?t dye his hair, no tattoos,? he said. ?But we all know he is the best player we have.? Pep Guardiola

 

"Do they deserve the Ballon d'Or? None of us here doubt this. They are both the best in the world," Del Bosque on Iniesta and Xavi

 

 

[Amjam]

Piss off - the type of intimidation you see today is nowhere near what went on years ago - Iam not saying that was good or commendable but the best players had to deal with & dish out a lot rougher treatment than goes on now. Modern players are molly-coddled by comparison.

 

Nice.

 

You could argue that, or you could ask Alonso about the boot in his chest. I don't remember many of those "years ago".

 

And if you're going to continue with a hypothetical argument that's completely unprovable how about this: Players are much fitter and faster now, so players from yesteryear wouldn't get near them?

Wait a minute this unprovable stuff is great.

[Charlie-Brown]

Nice.

 

You could argue that, or you could ask Alonso about the boot in his chest. I don't remember many of those "years ago".

 

And if you're going to continue with a hypothetical argument that's completely unprovable how about this: Players are much fitter and faster now, so players from yesteryear wouldn't get near them?

Wait a minute this unprovable stuff is great.

 

Players from yesteryear would have the exactly same fitness levels of modern players IF they played today or vice versa - the question is about ability and temperament not how much fitness levels have improved or changed over the decades.

 

Anyway here's a fairly typical football match of the kind that I grew up watching.

 

[rossthejambo]

Players from yesteryear would have the exactly same fitness levels of modern players IF they played today or vice versa - the question is about ability and temperament not how much fitness levels have improved or changed over the decades.

 

Anyway here's a fairly typical football match of the kind that I grew up watching.

 

 

Wind your neck in CB. The facts are, we don't live in the bygone age of hard tackles and muddy pitches where players rarely left their country of birth.

 

Xavi and Iniesta are better technically and physically than a lot of their predecessors, of that there is no doubt. And don't say "well what if they were up against a tough tackler from back in the day" because that hasn't happened and won't ever happen.

 

Time to come into the 21st century of football and enjoy what you see instead of yearning for times gone by.

[Amjam]

Players from yesteryear would have the exactly same fitness levels of modern players IF they played today or vice versa - the question is about ability and temperament not how much fitness levels have improved or changed over the decades.

 

Anyway here's a fairly typical football match of the kind that I grew up watching.

 

 

Well using that, let's charitably call it logic, Xavi and Iniesta would be a lot tougher playing back then.

It's a completely spurious argument.

[Charlie-Brown]

Wind your neck in CB. The facts are, we don't live in the bygone age of hard tackles and muddy pitches where players rarely left their country of birth.

 

Xavi and Iniesta are better technically and physically than a lot of their predecessors, of that there is no doubt. And don't say "well what if they were up against a tough tackler from back in the day" because that hasn't happened and won't ever happen.

 

Time to come into the 21st century of football and enjoy what you see instead of yearning for times gone by.

 

In some ways it's progress I suppose but in other ways it's a big regression - it's an interesting debate as to whether football and the experience of football matches is better now or before - it's certainly very different!

[Amjam]

In some ways it's progress I suppose but in other ways it's a big regression - it's an interesting debate as to whether football and the experience of football matches is better now or before - it's certainly very different!

 

I think the football's better now, but I preferred the experience back then. Seating killed the atmosphere at games for the most part.

[Charlie-Brown]

I think the football's better now, but I preferred the experience back then. Seating killed the atmosphere at games for the most part.

 

Some of the football's better now but players like Cruyff, Platini were equally as good or better than Xavi and Iniesta and they had to overcome the bad pitches, the more vigourous tackling fair & foul, the intimidation etc. Arguably that made them even better players or at least stronger characters? Football was definitely more raw then, stadium facilities are definitely better now but i often wonder if all seating was really necessary? They could easily have made terracing, access & exits safer, improved the catering & toilets etc and not made football quite so much the bland corporate product it is today - it could have retained more of it's edge. Also there is an argument that match officials are over zealous and card happy today and that the rules have swung too far towards sending players off the pitch.

[Budgie.]

 

Post all the polls you like, it doesn't change anything. If you really think that Fabregas is playing at the same level to Xavi and Iniesta right now, you're off your nut.

 

Hello, McFly!

 

I've already agreed they are playing better than him.

 

That he isn't fit to lace their boots is ridiculous though!

[Amjam]

Some of the football's better now but players like Cruyff, Platini were equally as good or better than Xavi and Iniesta and they had to overcome the bad pitches, the more vigourous tackling fair & foul, the intimidation etc. Arguably that made them even better players or at least stronger characters? Football was definitely more raw then, stadium facilities are definitely better now but i often wonder if all seating was really necessary? They could easily have made terracing, access & exits safer, improved the catering & toilets etc and not made football quite so much the bland corporate product it is today - it could have retained more of it's edge. Also there is an argument that match officials are over zealous and card happy today and that the rules have swung too far towards sending players off the pitch.

 

I meant in general the football is better. Teams are less defensively naive, fitter, quicker, more tactically aware. But, yes, there are some players that transcend time, like Cruyff and Platini.

Card happy referees are a product of FIFA wanting their star money-makers, sorry, players, protected. A balance needs to be struck. There was a real art in tackling that could be lost to the game.

Standing areas I think would do a lot to improve atmosphere. Unfortunately it's not just football that's blandly corporate, just seems to be the way of the world now.

[Walter Bishop]

Has Andres Iniesta done enough over the past couple of seasons to secure his place amongst the top ten greatest midfielders of all time?

 

Or does he have to perform at a world class level for more than two or three years?

 

Going by most websites the top twenty midfielders of all time looks something like this:

 

Michel Platini

Johann Cryuff

Zinedine Zidane

Jean Tigana

Lothar Mattheus

Frank Rijkaard

Bobby Charlton

Gerson

Pep Guardiola

Zico

Marco Tardelli

Falcao

Gianni Rivera

Rivelino

Didi

Xavi

Johan Neeskens

Dave McKay

Michael Laudrup

Clarence Seedorf

Bryan Robson

 

If Iniesta were to retire tomorrow, where would he be ranked?

 

Didi? Is that the guy starting all these polls?

[Budgie.]

Didi? Is that the guy starting all these polls?

 

Nope, it's the guy that thinks Busquets is better than Fabregas!