why attendences are dropping.

[Charlie-Brown]

Standing sections just wouldnt work, cost too much money and the dangerous, health and saftey wouldnt alllow it

 

How do you figure that out? They have safe standing sections in Germany and in League One & Two in England were they get comparable crowds with many SPL clubs so how are they possible in England and Germany who don't have any lesser safety standards than Scotland?

[Jambomuzz]

I personally think If hearts are going to attract more fans,

 

1. They need to reduce prices.

2. Send players out every week to different primary schools throughout edinburgh, Primary 1's 2;s and 3's are where you start to pick up your footballing influence, if you had a star from a football team come in and visit you that young, it could be enough to convince you to support that team, because you feel you have a link to the team.

[Francis Albert]

As stated by others price and glory hunters are the 2 largest reasons.

 

The solution would of course be lower prices and more free tickets given out in schools. Would wager a lot of parents who would take the kids to games don't as they can't afford to. Non attendance almost always leads to glory hunting as no one sees the point in following 'losers' if they don't feel a real connection.

 

 

There are of course people who can't afford an adult ST but I suspect there are very few who can afford an adult ST who can't afford ?19 for an under-12 ST (or two).

[Templeton'sUnderpants]

There are of course people who can't afford an adult ST but I suspect there are very few who can afford an adult ST who can't afford ?19 for an under-12 ST (or two).

Perhaps I should have been more clear in what I meant, taking the bairn means cost of travel + pie + drink, maybe a programme etc. Every week to second week that's a decent amount. I appreciate you still have these costs with a free ticket but it still adds some incentive.

[Nookie Bear]

Perhaps I should have been more clear in what I meant, taking the bairn means cost of travel + pie + drink, maybe a programme etc. Every week to second week that's a decent amount. I appreciate you still have these costs with a free ticket but it still adds some incentive.

 

I'll sound like a t0sser here but you don't need to have the pie and drink so that's a few quid saved!

 

Then again, i'm one of those tight gits that buys his own sweets for the cinema

[Francis Albert]

Perhaps I should have been more clear in what I meant, taking the bairn means cost of travel + pie + drink, maybe a programme etc. Every week to second week that's a decent amount. I appreciate you still have these costs with a free ticket but it still adds some incentive.

 

 

Pop into Poundland and for a couple of quid you'll stock up on enough drinks and snacks to keep the greedy little brat happy for half a season. I don't think anyone can claim ?1 per game is excesssive for an under 12 ST - and Hearts can hardly be held responsible for the other costs of having bairns. Presumably they eat and drink at home too.

[Templeton'sUnderpants]

I'll sound like a t0sser here but you don't need to have the pie and drink so that's a few quid saved!

 

Then again, i'm one of those tight gits that buys his own sweets for the cinema

Try telling that to an 8 year old chief.

[Gabriel]

For any product falling demand is a reflection of too high prices - it's simple economics. The SPL clubs value proposition isn't attractive enough to retain their customers, they need to lower their prices and/or increase the quality on offer or both.

 

You can watch far more football for far lower cost on television, and the games that are supposedly of greatest interest to Hearts fans ie Category A games Old Firm and Hibs games well you can watch 8 of these 12 games per season on TV as SKY/ESPN broadcast all the Edinburgh based fixtures between these clubs as well as quite extensive coverage of the rest of the league available live and online.

 

Apart from fans loyalty taking them to games regularly you know that if you miss a match you can virtually guarantee to be able to see either the game live or the key highlight moments usually within 26 hours so there isn't enough incentive to attend SPL matches given a combination of relative high prices, static or falling real wages and extensive media coverage of games & goals.

 

Good post I'm afraid that any plans to improve the situation in Scotland will be not nearly radical enough.

[Tommy Wiseau]

And yet, given the choice, I would rather watch Hearts v St Johnstone than Inter Milan versus somebody.

 

Go figure.

 

 

Guess that's why they get away with it...

 

 

 

That's so true.

 

 

These are seats for disabled and blind people. Apart from that, the cheapest tickets are 15 euros for the "singing section" behind the goals.

 

Still an absolute steal when you compare the quality of the players and the competition to what is on offer for us. I won't make the obvious stadium comparison, because there isn't a lot I would change about Tynecastle if I'm being completely honest.

 

Ah, thanks for that, my German is non-existent so was just guessing with my translation - I thought it might have translated as "blindspots" or something. As you say, still an embarrassing price list when compared with SPL tickets.

[Nookie Bear]

Try telling that to an 8 year old chief.

 

You buy him a pint?

 

Kidding, and I should have added: "I reserve the right to change my mind when I take a kid to a game" (I'll be the one spending a fortune just for a quiet life)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

Hearts are averaging over 80% capacity, which suggests that from a business point of view prices are close to optimal. I doubt that reducing prices by say 15% would result in us selling out every game, so a reduction of that sort of level would result in bigger losses, or larger cuts in spending on the playing squad (which would of course tend to depress crowds further). Hearts could offer cheaper prices for walk ups and concessions for Category B games, but there is pretty limited opportunity to do anything very radical with pricing without negatively impacting on revenue. The ?19 U-12 ST was pretty radical but doesn't seem to have had large impact on crowds.

 

Strangely the only thing that has really had a big positive impact on Hearts attendances in the last 50 years was playing at Murrayfield.

 

 

[Ribble]

Don't really think it's about people not being able to afford to go to games, more that they no longer see it as value for money!

 

Being asked for ?20 quid to watch Hamilton for the second or third time this season is it any wonder people are saying sod it and keeping their hands in their pockets?

 

Even in years gone by when we were playing the uglies we knew there was every chance of a hiding but at least for your 25-30quid you got to see the likes of Laudrup and Larsson instead of Laugherty and Scott Brown!

[Mysterion]

Even if they can't lower prices drastically - I'd like to see some sort of loyalty offer made (half price ST every 5 years or similar). Don't know if it would work but it's only a suggestion.

 

The ticket price situation where dropping prices doesn't always translate to sales. The last thing Hearts want to do is have tickets working out the same as a ST as people will pick and choose (probably not to attend a lot of Cat B games). Based on last season there were 18 games - using this years ST price that worked out at ?18-19 per game.

 

I can't see why Hearts can't push ST sales to all new levels with agressive pricing policy. If there was a 1 month window where cash upfront sales are priced at ~?270-300 (based on 18games at ?15-17 per game) for Gold Cat A STs then I'd reckon there would be a rush from fans to plough their cash in.

 

The key thing i think is the psychology behind the sale - if people think they are getting value from their ST at effectively ?15 a game then they'll be inclined to sign up.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

Another problem is some of the amateur clubs playing games on Saturdays. I know loads of lads who would come along but have to play for their side.

 

The other problems being price, being with mates and lack of a bevvy. We can compete with pubs imo if we introduced that.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

One more thing - a lot of fans put other fans off coming. I'm not talking about the UJ brigade etc, I'm talking about the old men who go every week because they have nothing better to do and just want to sit in stoney silence, occasionally hurling abuse at the ref. There's plenty of these types on Kickback.

 

Even if the product on the pitch wasn't great, a lively atmosphere would definitely appeal to people if they're still going to have a good time supporting the team.

[Francis Albert]

Another problem is some of the amateur clubs playing games on Saturdays. I know loads of lads who would come along but have to play for their side.

 

The other problems being price, being with mates and lack of a bevvy. We can compete with pubs imo if we introduced that.

 

I was at the Emirates on Saturday and the upper and lower concourses in the ground (with separate little stalls selling beer to those who didn't want to wait in a food queue) were packed an hour before KO with people watching the Manchester derby on TV screens. And instead of rushing off to beat the rush for tubes and buses, you could also have a drink after the game. No sign of drunken-ness or trouble, which even if it happened would be more easily controlled than outside the ground with away fans mixing. The Scottish nanny state wouldn't approve of course.

[Charlie-Brown]

Hearts are averaging over 80% capacity, which suggests that from a business point of view prices are close to optimal. I doubt that reducing prices by say 15% would result in us selling out every game, so a reduction of that sort of level would result in bigger losses, or larger cuts in spending on the playing squad (which would of course tend to depress crowds further). Hearts could offer cheaper prices for walk ups and concessions for Category B games, but there is pretty limited opportunity to do anything very radical with pricing without negatively impacting on revenue. The ?19 U-12 ST was pretty radical but doesn't seem to have had large impact on crowds.

 

Strangely the only thing that has really had a big positive impact on Hearts attendances in the last 50 years was playing at Murrayfield.

 

Your initial paragraph is true FA however it is offset by the fact that almost all of this core attendance is ST holders who buy a ticket for every match. However the proportion walk up attendance & Cup attendances are far lower as are away fans attendance levels - both Hearts fans travelling away and away fans coming to Tynecastle. There is definitely a problem attracting supporters to SPL & Cup matches that are not part of any ST deal and the reason for this is that prices are simply too high or the value proposition isn't high enough to attract people at the prices being asked.

[Radge21]

Because the officials give Rangers and Celtic all the decisions

to keep the status quo.

Scottish football is corrupt and not competitive enough.

[Francis Albert]

One more thing - a lot of fans put other fans off coming. I'm not talking about the UJ brigade etc, I'm talking about the old men who go every week because they have nothing better to do and just want to sit in stoney silence, occasionally hurling abuse at the ref. There's plenty of these types on Kickback.

 

Even if the product on the pitch wasn't great, a lively atmosphere would definitely appeal to people if they're still going to have a good time supporting the team.

 

But there we disagree. A few rows in front of me there is a line of old boys, none under 80, who do exactly as you say. There are one or two fewer of them each season. I can't believe anyone has ever been put off going because of them. The occasional drunk "traditionalist" who bellows at the rest of us to "sing up you feckers" on the other hand ....

[Tynie b]

I have'nt read all the way throught his thread but IMO the Main reasons for falling attendances are stupid kick off times and days. Football should ALWAYS be a Saturday at 3pm or Wednesday at 745pm. Sunday's at 1245pm or Saturdays at 12pm are a Freakin nonsense. All the way up to Inverness or Aberdeen for a 12pm kick off is something I now won't do if all I really have to do is turn on the TV and watch it in the house or head along to the local for a few beers and watch it with some mates. If it was a Saturady 3pm and live on the TV, I would go along and watch at Tynecastle. If it's a Sunday at 12.45pm I watch it in the house...Not a Real Fan then eh!!

[leginten]

One more thing - a lot of fans put other fans off coming. I'm not talking about the UJ brigade etc, I'm talking about the old men who go every week because they have nothing better to do and just want to sit in stoney silence, occasionally hurling abuse at the ref. There's plenty of these types on Kickback.

 

Even if the product on the pitch wasn't great, a lively atmosphere would definitely appeal to people if they're still going to have a good time supporting the team.

 

That seems quite an unfair post in a number of ways. I dare say a lot of the older guys who attend Tynecastle don't have anything better to do on a Saturday afternoon apart from supporting the team they've supported all their lives. But presumably no-one who's at a match has anything better to do, otherwise they'd be doing it. As for sitting in stoney silence, I think that is quite common across the age groups. In fact I think it's a characteristic of Scottish football grounds in the 21st century and can be attributed in no small measure to the ills of the game, not least the meaningless nature of many fixtures and the competition in general. There are a lot of young guys near where I sit, and they're not exactly the life and soul.

 

As for old man ref/player banter, I'm an avid watcher/listener myself. My son and I often exchange sly glances and smiles during the games when the old guys behind us come out with something particularly funny. Part of the enjoyment, imo.

[Francis Albert]

Your initial paragraph is true FA however it is offset by the fact that almost all of this core attendance is ST holders who buy a ticket for every match. However the proportion walk up attendance & Cup attendances are far lower as are away fans attendance levels - both Hearts fans travelling away and away fans coming to Tynecastle. There is definitely a problem attracting supporters to SPL & Cup matches that are not part of any ST deal and the reason for this is that prices are simply too high or the value proposition isn't high enough to attract people at the prices being asked.

 

In relation to cup ties, fair enough. But as Mysterion points out, if you cut walk up prices for matches which are covered by STs you risk reducing ST sales.

 

At almost any price, I think the days of big away supports are a thing of the past .

[Tommy Wiseau]

One more thing - a lot of fans put other fans off coming. I'm not talking about the UJ brigade etc, I'm talking about the old men who go every week because they have nothing better to do and just want to sit in stoney silence, occasionally hurling abuse at the ref. There's plenty of these types on Kickback.

 

Even if the product on the pitch wasn't great, a lively atmosphere would definitely appeal to people if they're still going to have a good time supporting the team.

 

 

But there we disagree. A few rows in front of me there is a line of old boys, none under 80, who do exactly as you say. There are one or two fewer of them each season. I can't believe anyone has ever been put off going because of them. The occasional drunk "traditionalist" who bellows at the rest of us to "sing up you feckers" on the other hand ....

 

 

I agree mostly with JMT, although it's a problem among more groups than just the old timers. I used to sit in N1, in the bit that got shut down. It was easily the most fun I've had at the football and it has never been as good since I moved further up the stand. N1 had some questionable chaps in it and I don't like to hear any off songs etc., but the section created an atmosphere. Upper S is shit in comparison and it's because people don't get involved. I celebrated a goal against Celtic at the start of the 06/07 season in my new seat and there were people tapping me on the shoulder saying "you're some boy" - I was the only one around doing more than standing up and applauding.

 

The other type of fan making it less fun than it was are the torn faced arseholes who boo at half time when we're 0-0 with Rangers, or slate players left, right and centre, only supporting the team when we're on top. That drains the life out of you.

[Charlie-Brown]

In relation to cup ties, fair enough. But as Mysterion points out, if you cut walk up prices for matches which are covered by STs you risk reducing ST sales.

 

At almost any price, I think the days of big away supports are a thing of the past .

 

I think you would find more people would have incentive to travel if prices were significantly lower - I might have gone to Hamilton if it was only a ?10 entry and say ?5 travel for a supporters bus from Tynecastle but when I've got to pay ?20 to get in plus the same again in petrol then sorry at that cost it doesn't justify the expense or other possible use of time & family etc.

[leginten]

I think you would find more people would have incentive to travel if prices were significantly lower - I might have gone to Hamilton if it was only a ?10 entry and say ?5 travel for a supporters bus from Tynecastle but when I've got to pay ?20 to get in plus the same again in petrol then sorry at that cost it doesn't justify the expense or other possible use of time & family etc.

 

I would agree with this. I could have gone to Hamilton on Saturday but did some gardening instead. The reason I didn't go was, in the main, financial. By the time I had paid myself and my son into the ground (and lacking the front to pull off a PJ1-type stunt), paid for petrol and something to eat and drink, I was probably looking at around ?50. That, to me, is a lot of money.

[Francis Albert]

I think you would find more people would have incentive to travel if prices were significantly lower - I might have gone to Hamilton if it was only a ?10 entry and say ?5 travel for a supporters bus from Tynecastle but when I've got to pay ?20 to get in plus the same again in petrol then sorry at that cost it doesn't justify the expense or other possible use of time & family etc.

 

How does the price of match ticket affect the cost of getting there? Supporters buses are available whether Hamilton charge ?10 or ?20 so you are saying the difference between a total cost of ?25 and ?15 (or ?40 and ?30 if you go by car) is going to make a big difference to the size of the travelling support. I doubt it, and certainly, from Hamilton's revenue perspective, I doubt it's going to double it, so they lose money.

[Charlie-Brown]

How does the price of match ticket affect the cost of getting there? Supporters buses are available whether Hamilton charge ?10 or ?20 so you are saying the difference between a total cost of ?25 and ?15 (or ?30 and ?20 if you go by car) is going to make a big difference to the size of the travelling support. I doubt it, and certainly, from Hamilton's revenue perspective, I doubt it's going to double it, so they lose money.

 

I gave you a scenario where my total costs I envisioned paying was ?15 (?10 entry and ?5 travelling - based on a supporters bus from Tynecastle as used to be available when Hearts actively tried to encourage away supporters) - at minimum it would cost me ?20 to have got in on saturday plus any cost of travelling which i estimate to have driven there would have cost me another ?15 or ?20 worth of diesel.... so in my perspective what i would be prepared to pay (ie what i consider reasonable price / value) and what it would actually have cost me to go ie between ?35-?40 is a difference of 100% or more.

 

The costs of hosting an SPL football match are relatively fixed, the amount of ST money is also known in advance so every non-ST supporter that enters the ground is additional revenue - if you make the value proposition an attractive enough price to encourage more people to attend then the additional revenue increases. Keep walk-up prices & the cost of attending too high and people will simply stay away - as I & Leginten did, so the additional revenue from us was ?0

[Pasha]

I was talking with a customer today from Norway and he asked which country was i from.

When i said Scotland, he asked "what team do you support Rangers or Celtic"?

The SPL being a 2 team league and crazy ticket prices are the reasons why i think attendances are dropping.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

That seems quite an unfair post in a number of ways. I dare say a lot of the older guys who attend Tynecastle don't have anything better to do on a Saturday afternoon apart from supporting the team they've supported all their lives. But presumably no-one who's at a match has anything better to do, otherwise they'd be doing it. As for sitting in stoney silence, I think that is quite common across the age groups. In fact I think it's a characteristic of Scottish football grounds in the 21st century and can be attributed in no small measure to the ills of the game, not least the meaningless nature of many fixtures and the competition in general. There are a lot of young guys near where I sit, and they're not exactly the life and soul.

 

As for old man ref/player banter, I'm an avid watcher/listener myself. My son and I often exchange sly glances and smiles during the games when the old guys behind us come out with something particularly funny. Part of the enjoyment, imo.

 

Disagree. I almost always have "better" things (depending on how you look at it) that I could be doing but I go anyway because I want to be there and have a laugh.

 

It's depressing being surrounded by dour blokes who only ever make any noise if they're screaming at the referee whilst spitting everywhere, or telling you to sit down. To say it's endemic of most age groups then I disagree again. I reckon these comatose fans just get their way and ruin it for a lot of the young'ins who want to enjoy the match and support the team, have a sing song etc. It's quite easy for them to complain or moan to someone with a bit of authority and after a while this sort of attitude has just been adopted as the norm. I bet those young lads near you don't try because they're thinking they'll be the only ones making an effort and will back down due to being self-conscious or something.

 

Suddenly all those who do want to go and enjoy themselves, support the team etc are put off by the status quo and find something more enjoyable to spend their time and money on so clubs lose money due to decreased attendances and the atmosphere completely dies - which is the situation we've essentially got just now. I don't think I'm being harsh at all and in fact, I don't think this insipid generation of fan and their warped attitudes and ideas of supporting a team get enough blame. It says it all that you find it funny when they sit in silence for most of the game then come out blazing against a referee or something.

 

And it's not (truly) down to the league structure, that's just a lazy excuse.

[Francis Albert]

I gave you a scenario where my total costs I envisioned paying was ?15 (?10 entry and ?5 travelling - based on a supporters bus from Tynecastle as used to be available when Hearts actively tried to encourage away supporters) - at minimum it would cost me ?20 to have got in on saturday plus any cost of travelling which i estimate to have driven there would have cost me another ?15 or ?20 worth of diesel.... so in my perspective what i would be prepared to pay (ie what i consider reasonable price / value) and what it would actually have cost me to go ie between ?35-?40 is a difference of 100% or more.

 

The costs of hosting an SPL football match are relatively fixed, the amount of ST money is also known in advance so every non-ST supporter that enters the ground is additional revenue - if you make the value proposition an attractive enough price to encourage more people to attend then the additional revenue increases. Keep walk-up prices & the cost of attending too high and people will simply stay away - as I & Leginten did, so the additional revenue from us was ?0

 

 

In relation to Hearts revenue from home games this is true only if you assume there is no relationship between the walk up price and the price and take up of STs.

 

As for Hamiltion, are you seriously suggesting there would have been twice as many Hearts fans there if the price had been ?10 rather than ?20? Or that if Hearts charged ?10 to away fans we'd see tthe travelling support fom Killie, Hamilton, Motherwell etc doubling? Of course Aberdeen would take the Wheatfield aswell as the Roseburn, but that aside ...

 

(PS I am sure some suppoerters bus will offer you a seat if you post on here asking.)

[Francis Albert]

Disagree. I almost always have "better" things (depending on how you look at it) that I could be doing but I go anyway because I want to be there and have a laugh.

 

It's depressing being surrounded by dour blokes who only ever make any noise if they're screaming at the referee whilst spitting everywhere, or telling you to sit down. To say it's endemic of most age groups then I disagree again. I reckon these comatose fans just get their way and ruin it for a lot of the young'ins who want to enjoy the match and support the team, have a sing song etc. It's quite easy for them to complain or moan to someone with a bit of authority and after a while this sort of attitude has just been adopted as the norm. I bet those young lads near you don't try because they're thinking they'll be the only ones making an effort and will back down due to being self-conscious or something.

 

Suddenly all those who do want to go and enjoy themselves, support the team etc are put off by the status quo and find something more enjoyable to spend their time and money on so clubs lose money due to decreased attendances and the atmosphere completely dies - which is the situation we've essentially got just now. I don't think I'm being harsh at all and in fact, I don't think this insipid generation of fan and their warped attitudes and ideas of supporting a team get enough blame. It says it all that you find it funny when they sit in silence for most of the game then come out blazing against a referee or something.

 

And it's not (truly) down to the league structure, that's just a lazy excuse.

 

What age limit would you place on attending games?

 

Or maybe safer would be some sort of audition process where you and like-minded fans would accompany prospective supporters to vet their contributioon to the atmoshere before they get a licence to attend?

[Tommy Wiseau]

An old boy once told me to "sit the **** down" and threatened to report me to the stewards because I stood up to celebrate Rudi Skacel's equaliser at Celtic Park. He also had at least 3 Hearts fans thrown out for what he decided was sectarianism (aka standing up and singing Hearts songs).

 

True story.

 

I hope he has crippling haemhorroids and finds it extremely uncomfortable to sit at the match now.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

What age limit would you place on attending games?

 

Or maybe safer would be some sort of audition process where you and like-minded fans would accompany prospective supporters to vet their contributioon to the atmoshere before they get a licence to attend?

 

See - it's exactly this attitude that puts people off. You'll either get the "leave them alone they've been going for years" defence from someone or they'll give you the "aye alright superfan simmer down" patter like above and that's your lot. You lot have a lot to answer for - fair play though you've made it mighty cushy for yourselves.

 

I hope I'm savvy enough to sort out the comfort of my away games for my declining years by the time I hit 40ish like you lot did.

Then again, if I'm still at every game home and away by the time I hit 45 I've probably done something seriously wrong in my life - maybe that's why you're all so grumpy?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Francis Albert worried he's going to be over the age cut-off proposed by JMT I reckon.

[Francis Albert]

Francis Albert worried he's going to be over the age cut-off proposed by JMT I reckon.

 

 

I think I'd be one of the first up before JMT's "death panel".

 

 

Sack the board, sack the manager, sack the players ... now it's sack the fans. All adds to the atmoshpere I suppose.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

Btw Francis - there's an 80 year old man who STANDS with his grandson at the front of Section N every week. He's also at every away game I think, giving it laldy. I bet his outlook on life is amazing compared to yours. More power to him and his generation - they're better than yours. He's probably the type of bloke who went nuts in his 20s following Hearts home and away in the 60s and 70s but still has the passion which his son's generation (that's the vast, vast majority of people your age) sadly lack.

 

"Oh no I'm 50, better take a seat in case I break a hip "

[Charlie-Brown]

In relation to Hearts revenue from home games this is true only if you assume there is no relationship between the walk up price and the price and take up of STs.

 

As for Hamiltion, are you seriously suggesting there would have been twice as many Hearts fans there if the price had been ?10 rather than ?20? Or that if Hearts charged ?10 to away fans we'd see tthe travelling support fom Killie, Hamilton, Motherwell etc doubling? Of course Aberdeen would take the Wheatfield aswell as the Roseburn, but that aside ...

 

(PS I am sure some suppoerters bus will offer you a seat if you post on here asking.)

 

Francis - you are confusing the clubs optimum REVENUE with the fans/customers perception of ticket prices and their relationship to attendances - the OP asked why crowds are falling - the answer is simple demand is falling because the cost of attending relative to perceived value for money is too high .... would demand for match tickets be higher at a lower price? in normal circumstances i think the answer would be yes - would more people travel through to see Hamilton Accies v Hearts if it was significantly cheaper to do so - again I'd say probably YES.

 

You are presenting the clubs rational for higher prices - it is perfectly feasible to extract more revenue from a smaller crowd but that does nothing to increase attendances or answer why crowds are falling. Demand is always a function of price even if that price is ultimately zero!

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

I think I'd be one of the first up before JMT's "death panel".

 

 

Sack the board, sack the manager, sack the players ... now it's sack the fans. All adds to the atmoshpere I suppose.

 

I never said "sack the fans"

I said "sack the pathetic attitude that a lot of fans seem to harbour because of people like you so everyone can have a good time".

 

And if I didn't, I've said it now.

 

x

[Francis Albert]

Btw Francis - there's an 80 year old man who STANDS with his grandson at the front of Section N every week. He's also at every away game I think, giving it laldy. I bet his outlook on life is amazing compared to yours. More power to him and his generation - they're better than yours. He's probably the type of bloke who went nuts in his 20s following Hearts home and away in the 60s and 70s but still has the passion which his son's generation (that's the vast, vast majority of people your age) sadly lack.

 

"Oh no I'm 50, better take a seat in case I break a hip "

 

 

You know me so well!

 

I bet I travel more miles attending Hearts games than you do. Albeit in my custom built ambulance and against doctor's orders!

[Francis Albert]

I never said "sack the fans"

I said "sack the pathetic attitude that a lot of fans seem to harbour because of people like you so everyone can have a good time".

 

And if I didn't, I've said it now.

 

x

 

 

Don't be pedantic. It doesn't suit your bright young thing image.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

It is hard to find a toilet on the M8 and M9 tbf. Must be difficult scrambling around the wee towns searching for one because of your ageing bladder

 

However, let's not use the fact that you travel more to matches as a badge of honour. It's what you do at the game that counts.

[Francis Albert]

It is hard to find a toilet on the M8 and M9 tbf. Must be difficult scrambling around the wee towns searching for one because of your ageing bladder

 

However, let's not use the fact that you travel more to matches as a badge of honour. It's what you do at the game that counts.

 

 

Funnily enough, it's the bright young things near me that interrupt my view (seated of course) by trooping off to the toilets every half hour.

[Guest John Meurig Thomas]

Funnily enough, it's the bright young things near me that interrupt my view (seated of course) by trooping off to the toilets every half hour.

 

Well there you go

If you stood, you'd not have this problem.

[Francis Albert]

Well there you go

If you stood, you'd not have this problem.

 

 

Well it's been fun, but it's past my bed-time, so goodnight.

[leginten]

Disagree. I almost always have "better" things (depending on how you look at it) that I could be doing but I go anyway because I want to be there and have a laugh.

 

It's depressing being surrounded by dour blokes who only ever make any noise if they're screaming at the referee whilst spitting everywhere, or telling you to sit down. To say it's endemic of most age groups then I disagree again. I reckon these comatose fans just get their way and ruin it for a lot of the young'ins who want to enjoy the match and support the team, have a sing song etc. It's quite easy for them to complain or moan to someone with a bit of authority and after a while this sort of attitude has just been adopted as the norm. I bet those young lads near you don't try because they're thinking they'll be the only ones making an effort and will back down due to being self-conscious or something.

 

Suddenly all those who do want to go and enjoy themselves, support the team etc are put off by the status quo and find something more enjoyable to spend their time and money on so clubs lose money due to decreased attendances and the atmosphere completely dies - which is the situation we've essentially got just now. I don't think I'm being harsh at all and in fact, I don't think this insipid generation of fan and their warped attitudes and ideas of supporting a team get enough blame. It says it all that you find it funny when they sit in silence for most of the game then come out blazing against a referee or something.

 

And it's not (truly) down to the league structure, that's just a lazy excuse.

 

I still disagree with your assumption that whereas you have better things you could be doing than going to watch Hearts, the older supporters don't. I'm not quite sure what you base that on. I don't see a lot of generational conflict where I sit - the old guys don't boss people around or shop them to the stewards. And when it comes to singing, there's a fair mix of people joining in on the odd occasion a song reaches Section Z. Really, if you're suggesting young people will give up and find other leisure pursuits just because the atmosphere doesn't please them, obviously Hearts/football didn't mean that much to them in the first place. Sounds like a very poor excuse to me. There never was a golden age where everyone in the stadium sang and chanted at home games. When we had the Shed the singers were concentrated together, but the passing of terracing has put paid to that. I don't think things will change back until such time as "singing sections" are introduced.

 

The oldies are here to stay. I'll be one of them soon myself.

[Deodato]

Valid and timely debate. My thoughts:

 

1. TV coverage - does on demand tv highlights displace or stimulate football fans paying to see the game?

 

2. Quality - do fans pay for quality competition, but not a one sided quality team. You need two to be number one.

 

3. External events - does the growth in cinema and live music eat into peoples football budget?

 

I agree with the original poster as well. There is something ugly about the ugly sisters.

 

Deodato

[reaths17]

i've had a good look on london hearts, from our last league win our crowds have dwindled down(apart from really big games) all through the 60's and most of the 70's from their highs of the 50's. the wallace revival in the 80's saw an increase but taking a general view of attendances for ordinary games moth,aber,killie were actually sitting up a few hundred the past few seasons, capacity limits means we cant accomodate/take advantage a really big match which doesn't help any average attendance.

 

the stadium capacity is a hinderance in many ways,

 

theres many people working all hours of every day these days and cant do season tickets and will only occasionally turn up but if any free time you get is a big game week its not always easy gettin a ticket, and getting a ticket is time consuming as well so you need free time to go and get these as well.

i spent 50mins getting to tynie, was in the queue for 75mins and spent another 50 mins gettin home for a ticket to parkhead the other week there as i had the day off.

 

you also lose out on any passing trade, and lack of turnstyles for those who suddenly find their john inman and fancy going but your unsure if you need a ticket, what time do they stop selling them, are the cash turnstyles open, its 2:40 , if you have to go check all this and get to the ground in time your gonna miss the game anyways.

[CMc]

first three agree with but all seated stadia have meant the average has gone up. The maximum is lower however the minimum is a lot higher. People will buy a season ticket because they want to be in the same seat .

 

Success will add 3 or 4 thousand to the gate BUT those who suggest we could sell out a 25,000 - 30,000 stadium every week are most optimistic.

 

We have a core of around 11000

 

15000 who will come out when we are on a roll eg 2005-06

 

30 to 40 K who will want tickets for a final.

 

I don't think we need to be getting 25,000 - 30,000 every week to justify a 25,000 - 30,000 stadium. If we were getting 21,000ish most games and filling it for category As that would be fine.

 

The last time we went through a good spell we had a waiting list for season tickets. We currently fill Tynie as is for all the big games. That is taking into account how awful our main stand is. Yes it has character, and atmosphere in places, but let's face it, it is minging. The toilets are minging and full of furtive smokers hotboxing the place with fag smoke, the front few rows are exposed to the elements, the stand has terrible leg room, obscured views, uncomfortable seats, a dodgy roof...

 

Don't get me wrong, none of this puts me off, the place is home for me, I've always sat in that part of the ground. The problem is that slightly less fanatical people, the Mrs for example, when asked if they fancy going to a game will say something like, "Twenty+ quid to sit in the pissing rain losing the feeling in my knees? No thanks". Everyone that goes to Tynecastle knows how bad the facilities are in that stand. If you are slow to buy a ticket then you know that is where you are going to sit. It must put a lot of marginal supporters off. ?20 for a seat in a new stand would seem a lot more reasonable if the above problems were removed. It is a massive stretch to believe that 30% of those going regularly might be more likely to talk a friend into coming if the facilities were better?

 

The bottom line is that we have to try to get about a third to a half the extra 20,000ish fans who come out for finals/big European games etc in to justify a big stadium. How do we do this?

 

First thing would be to improve the matchday experience. The new stand would do this.

Second would be a more flexible pricing structure. Student tickets are good, kids tickets are good, do we do concessions for OAPs? We should probably do a discount ticket for the unemployed if we do one for students. I think putting our minimum price for a full ticket down to ?15-?16 would get more people through the door.

Third - we obviously need to maintain a decent product on the pitch. This is not about glory hunting. the problem is that anyone who watches football will be watching other leagues. If you get the EPL for free or near free then people will be reluctant to pay ?20 to watch huddies lumping long balls up and down the park.

Fourth - keep striving to make the place an acceptable place t bring kids. We all like atmosphere, but this must not stop parents bring future supporters into contact with the magic of HMFC.

 

Bottom line, I feel if we can rebuild the main stand and make sure we are not pricing to many people out, and continue to build on the park success we will be OK and should see our crowds grow. We seem to be the only club in the league that make most of our money from the fans as it is. If we keep doing well and the Hobos keep doing ****e then all of Edinburgh will be supporting us soon. Our population is catching Glasgow's very quickly and none of the other Scottish spectator sports are doing well.

 

We'll be fine.

[Francis Albert]

Francis - you are confusing the clubs optimum REVENUE with the fans/customers perception of ticket prices and their relationship to attendances - the OP asked why crowds are falling - the answer is simple demand is falling because the cost of attending relative to perceived value for money is too high .... would demand for match tickets be higher at a lower price? in normal circumstances i think the answer would be yes - would more people travel through to see Hamilton Accies v Hearts if it was significantly cheaper to do so - again I'd say probably YES.

 

You are presenting the clubs rational for higher prices - it is perfectly feasible to extract more revenue from a smaller crowd but that does nothing to increase attendances or answer why crowds are falling. Demand is always a function of price even if that price is ultimately zero!

 

All fair enough. But the club's rational for higher prices is surely a very relevant factor in why crowds are lower than they might be. If clubs can make more money with a lower, higher value crowd than a bigger, lower value crowd then the laws of economics say they will price at the higher price to maximise their revenue.

[Nelly Terraces]

1, Saturation coverge of football on TV. Live games every single day. Why bother leaving your armchair?

 

2, Ludicrous kick off times and games switched without any consultation with the paying customer (opening game last season being the perfect example, train tickets bought, looking forward to a cracking start to the season, over 20 mates all up for it - game changed to a fecking Monday night only a few weeks ahead - money wasted on train tickets, 3 of original party ended up going, feeling of utter deflation all round, most never went to another away game the entire season). Inverness awayat 12.30? Nah, yer alright thanks.

 

3. Price - absolutely laughable in comparison to the continent. I've been to Ajax twice in the last 2 seasons, 1st time it was 14 euros and in October I got a ticket for 20.

 

4. Having to arrange to go to a game weeks ahead (see 3), no longer being able to tap up, slap a tenner to the bloke at the turnstile and shout at a ref for 90 mins.

 

5. Dreadful 'product', put simply, due to the situation at 1. you can watch Barca, Inter, Man u etc. so who really would want to bother going to watch the garbage on show in the SPHell (and be charged over 20quid for the priviledge) when you can feast yer goggles on that lot. Simple fact: Scottish football is dreadful, the value for money in attendig games is negligible.