Is Kyle needing surgery? / Injury news & speculation (merged)

[Cardiac Rucksack]

You can take it as fact that he will have seen the top specialists. I can guarantee it. Our medical bills are horrific. No expense spared sort of stuff.

[IMA MAROON]

The thing with KK is he has always had injury problems. We knew that when he signed.

[deejtee]

Still conjecture about injections to play I see! That is mainly quite medieval with intra-articular local and steroids etc. Unless someone has access to kyle's medical notes and is breaking confidentiality this is all conjecture.Rest and injections to reduce inflammation are quite commonplace to avoid an operation which takes longer to heal and may be inappropriate. In Kyle's case as he has not been playing how do we keep getting the idea from some posters that he has been getting injections to play when he has missed some of our biggest games. More to the point why are we so reliant on someone with a history of injuries???

[bighusref]

You can take it as fact that he will have seen the top specialists. I can guarantee it. Our medical bills are horrific. No expense spared sort of stuff.

 

This cannot be true, according to CB, our players are queuing up at the ERI after games.

[Cardiac Rucksack]

This cannot be true, according to CB, our players are queuing up at the ERI after games.

 

This will be his new thing, it was our youngsters never get to play, then it was we have no money as we owe the HMRC now its we have no money for any sort of medical bills.

 

I know from the best possible source that our club doctor sends everyone to the top specialists and it costs the club thousands a month, as high as 45k in a month at some points.

[Charlie-Brown]

This will be his new thing, it was our youngsters never get to play, then it was we have no money as we owe the HMRC now its we have no money for any sort of medical bills.

 

I know from the best possible source that our club doctor sends everyone to the top specialists and it costs the club thousands a month, as high as 45k in a month at some points.

 

This is your exaggeration of what i actually said to BH was that a combination of medical advice and finance available decide when players are operated on - or else why would there be any delays in operations if people didn't think it was prudent to try alternative less costly or intrusive methods of treatment first - surely it's common sense that operating would always be the last course of action if it could otherwise be avoided? That is why specialists are consulted and sometimes other treatments applied - BH seems to be of the opinion operate and be done with it but it's never that simple a decision plus the high cost of treatment and medical fees is not without other consequences in terms of money available for other club operations and playing staff budgets etc.

[Only a Game]

Still conjecture about injections to play I see! That is mainly quite medieval with intra-articular local and steroids etc. Unless someone has access to kyle's medical notes and is breaking confidentiality this is all conjecture.Rest and injections to reduce inflammation are quite commonplace to avoid an operation which takes longer to heal and may be inappropriate. In Kyle's case as he has not been playing how do we keep getting the idea from some posters that he has been getting injections to play when he has missed some of our biggest games. More to the point why are we so reliant on someone with a history of injuries???

 

I dont know if he's been getting injections or not. Some players refuse them because a regime of injections is well known to have long term health and mobility implications

 

I do know that

 

1. We knew Kyle had this injury in the first week of January.

2. We knew right away that the only proper solution was an operation. That was our initial and immediate intention. Somebody somewhere, either JJ or the medical staff, or Kyle kimself changed their mind on it.

3. We played him in one game to see if he could manage to play through the injury. He didnt finish that game. I dont know if he had an injection for that game. I assume that he did.

4. He has not been fit to play since or anywhere close to being fit. JJ was constantly saying he "might make it" knowing full well that he wouldnt

5. He wont be anywhere close to being fit on Saturday and I'd be gobsmacked if he played. So would he and so would JJ.

6. We didnt go for the operation right away because we desperately needed Kyle for the series of big games we have just been through. It was wishful thinking over-ruling the reality. We did need him. We didnt have him, although its true to say we wouldnt have had him had he gone for the operation.

7. We've messed up on this. Badly assessed and badly managed the injury and the remedy and now we're having to do what we should have done weeks ago, which is surgery

8. Had he had the surgery when he needed it he would have been on the verge of returning by now, fully fit and injury free

9. The result of this ****** up is that we've lost our only serious striker (lets be honest he is the only serious striker we have) for 10 weeks rather than 4 or 5. ( and possibly for the rest of the season)

10. It wont cost us third place I dont think, but heads should roll if it does.

[Charlie-Brown]

I dont know if he's been getting injections or not. Some players refuse them because a regime of injections is well known to have long term health and mobility implications

 

I do know that

 

1. We knew Kyle had this injury in the first week of January.

2. We knew right away that the only proper solution was an operation. That was our initial and immediate intention. Somebody somewhere, either JJ or the medical staff, or Kyle kimself changed their mind on it.

3. We played him in one game to see if he could manage to play through the injury. He didnt finish that game. I dont know if he had an injection for that game. I assume that he did.

4. He has not been fit to play since or anywhere close to being fit. JJ was constantly saying he "might make it" knowing full well that he wouldnt

5. He wont be anywhere close to being fit on Saturday and I'd be gobsmacked if he played. So would he and so would JJ.

6. We didnt go for the operation right away because we desperately needed Kyle for the series of big games we have just been through. It was wishful thinking over-ruling the reality. We did need him. We didnt have him, although its true to say we wouldnt have had him had he gone for the operation.

7. We've messed up on this. Badly assessed and badly managed the injury and the remedy and now we're having to do what we should have done weeks ago, which is surgery

8. Had he had the surgery when he needed it he would have been on the verge of returning by now, fully fit and injury free

9. The result of this ****** up is that we've lost our only serious striker (lets be honest he is the only serious striker we have) for 10 weeks rather than 4 or 5. ( and possibly for the rest of the season)

10. It wont cost us third place I dont think, but heads should roll if it does.

 

So WHY do you think Hearts have delayed or avoided operating thus far OAG?

[Only a Game]

So WHY do you think Hearts have delayed or avoided operating thus far OAG?

 

See Number 6 in my list of points.

 

Basically , we needed him so badly that we avoided doing what we should have done on the waver slim hope that maybe he would make it for one of the big games. There must have been some kind of chance, however slim, that he could have made it for one of the big games

 

There isnt any good reason not to do it now. Its fecking ridiculous TBH that we havent done it already. At the very latest it should have been done as soon as we lost to Celtic and Rangers

[Gannet]

Interview with JJ ahead of the Hamilton game is on BBC webby, he confirms injections are the way to go at present, and that surgery is last resort.

[Charlie-Brown]

See Number 6 in my list of points.

 

Basically , we needed him. There must have been some kind of chance, however slim, that he could have made it for one of the big games and perhaps we felt that was worth waiting for.

 

There isnt any good reason not to do it now.

 

So you don't think somebody decided it might be possible or prudent to see if the injury responded to other treatment including rest and that operating should only be done if other treatments fail ie they gambled on other treatment working thus avoiding the need for an operation at least in the short term?

[Only a Game]

So you don't think somebody decided it might be possible or prudent to see if the injury responded to other treatment including rest and that operating should only be done if other treatments fail ie they gambled on other treatment working thus avoiding the need for an operation at least in the short term?

 

He has a hernia that REQUIRES an operation. No amount of treatment or rest will change that. They gambled on him being able to play in a vital game, or part of a vital game, with an injection I assume. A gamble that never really got off the ground because at no time during the last 4 weeks has he been anywhere close to being fit enough to play, even for part of a game, even with an injection.

 

It was wishful thinking and clouded judgement I'm afraid Charlie.

[bighusref]

This is your exaggeration of what i actually said to BH was that a combination of medical advice and finance available decide when players are operated on - or else why would there be any delays in operations if people didn't think it was prudent to try alternative less costly or intrusive methods of treatment first - surely it's common sense that operating would always be the last course of action if it could otherwise be avoided? That is why specialists are consulted and sometimes other treatments applied - BH seems to be of the opinion operate and be done with it but it's never that simple a decision plus the high cost of treatment and medical fees is not without other consequences in terms of money available for other club operations and playing staff budgets etc.

 

If it is decided by the medical staff that the best for the long term fitness and health of the player is an operation, I would never ask him to take injections. The only real exception would be for a huge game; A one off choice.

 

You seem to think that we should make him play through the pain and wait until we save enough for surgery.

 

I dont know if he's been getting injections or not. Some players refuse them because a regime of injections is well known to have long term health and mobility implications

 

I do know that

 

1. We knew Kyle had this injury in the first week of January.

2. We knew right away that the only proper solution was an operation. That was our initial and immediate intention. Somebody somewhere, either JJ or the medical staff, or Kyle kimself changed their mind on it.

3. We played him in one game to see if he could manage to play through the injury. He didnt finish that game. I dont know if he had an injection for that game. I assume that he did.

4. He has not been fit to play since or anywhere close to being fit. JJ was constantly saying he "might make it" knowing full well that he wouldnt

5. He wont be anywhere close to being fit on Saturday and I'd be gobsmacked if he played. So would he and so would JJ.

6. We didnt go for the operation right away because we desperately needed Kyle for the series of big games we have just been through. It was wishful thinking over-ruling the reality. We did need him. We didnt have him, although its true to say we wouldnt have had him had he gone for the operation.

7. We've messed up on this. Badly assessed and badly managed the injury and the remedy and now we're having to do what we should have done weeks ago, which is surgery

8. Had he had the surgery when he needed it he would have been on the verge of returning by now, fully fit and injury free

9. The result of this ****** up is that we've lost our only serious striker (lets be honest he is the only serious striker we have) for 10 weeks rather than 4 or 5. ( and possibly for the rest of the season)

10. It wont cost us third place I dont think, but heads should roll if it does.

 

You are not the sort to make this up, so, I believe all of this.

 

It was a gamble worth taking as those two games could have made our season, but the day after our defeat at Ibrox, he should have been off for an operation.

[Only a Game]

Interview with JJ ahead of the Hamilton game is on BBC webby, he confirms injections are the way to go at present, and that surgery is last resort.

 

So why havent we jagged him for the key games and now we're thinking about jagging him after having lost those key games, just to get him in some kind of condition to play against Hamilton FFS.

 

Honestly its bollox to inject him now. It makes no sense.

 

If we can jag him now and have him play, we should have been doing that for the last 5 games.

[Charlie-Brown]

If it is decided by the medical staff that the best for the long term fitness and health of the player is an operation, I would never ask him to take injections. The only real exception would be for a huge game; A one off choice.

 

You seem to think that we should make him play through the pain and wait until we save enough for surgery.

 

 

You are not the sort to make this up, so, I believe all of this.

 

It was a gamble worth taking as those two games could have made our season, but the day after our defeat at Ibrox, he should have been off for an operation.

 

 

I have never said we should do anything of the sort BH - what iam saying is that the reality is who-ever finances the cost of operations probably isn't giving Hearts a blank cheque to operate whenever & wherever we want and feel is necessary and is only permitting the cost of operations when other possible treatments have been proven to be ineffective otherwise why haven't all injured players been sent for operations immediately unless medical advice rules out any alternative forms of treatment - why is Jim Jefferies saying they will treat Kyle with a course of injections for now and operating is the last resort?

[deejtee]

Is this more conjecture or has an expert opinion been that he has a hernia confirmed by the appropriate tests? By the way it is absolute nonsense to say that all injections are detrimental to health and future mobility. It is also possible that if someone has a hernia operation they may miss a lot more time than four weeks to resume activity to the level of professional sport. By the way a lot of groin problems are wrongly diagnosed as small herniae by "clinical" assessment which is why other tests exist but I assume from the list of absolute statements made a while ago that this has all been done!

[bighusref]

Is this more conjecture or has an expert opinion been that he has a hernia confirmed by the appropriate tests? By the way it is absolute nonsense to say that all injections are detrimental to health and future mobility. It is also possible that if someone has a hernia operation they may miss a lot more time than four weeks to resume activity to the level of professional sport. By the way a lot of groin problems are wrongly diagnosed as small herniae by "clinical" assessment which is why other tests exist but I assume from the list of absolute statements made a while ago that this has all been done!

 

I think it's absolute nonsense for posters to make up things to get upset about.

 

OR, please show me a post that states the emboldened section.

[speedbump]

Anyone who knows anything about sports players will know that the last thing any of them want is to operated on. I would suggest KK, knowing his own body will have delayed the operations from happening in a bid to rest the injury and give the body time to heel it's self.

[deejtee]

I think it's absolute nonsense for posters to make up things to get upset about.

 

OR, please show me a post that states the emboldened section.

 

First line of OAG's post and several other references in this thread to the damage caused by injections. I am not getting upset by the way just correcting misconceptions. The days of injecting people to play sport while allowing them to cause serious damage to joints etc are history.

[Only a Game]

Is this more conjecture or has an expert opinion been that he has a hernia confirmed by the appropriate tests? By the way it is absolute nonsense to say that all injections are detrimental to health and future mobility. It is also possible that if someone has a hernia operation they may miss a lot more time than four weeks to resume activity to the level of professional sport. By the way a lot of groin problems are wrongly diagnosed as small herniae by "clinical" assessment which is why other tests exist but I assume from the list of absolute statements made a while ago that this has all been done!

 

I have to assume that the appropriate tests have revealed what is wrong with him. Otherwise we best get some new medical people in IMO.

 

Unless you know differently there hasnt ever been a hernia thats been cured by an injection. The injections are purely for control of pain and control of inflammation. They do work in that limited sense. It is also well known that they cause other problems and tend to impact on long term fitness and health if used too many times.(Not in all cases but then I didnt say it was in all cases. The fact is that there is documented medical evidence that they CAN and DO cause problems) They also inhibit natural repair of tissue so have no long term benefit whatsoever. Those two reasons are why many players wont take them and why they are generally discredited throughout professional sport.

 

I dont know if Kyle has declined to take one or not.

 

What is apparent that what has been done treatment wise to date, hasnt worked in terms of getting Kyle fit enough to play for even part of a game and is essentially time wasted when an operation right away would have had him almost back by now.

 

We may well have "wrongly diagnosed" the extent of the injury and thought there was a chance he could play. To me if you wrongly diagnose, as a medical person, and you give an opinion that he might be able to play, and you've got it wrong,( as we clearly have) then you are due criticism.

 

I dont buy this suggestion of yours that we held back on an operation because of financial reasons. I believe we held back because of over optimistic medical advice and wishful thinking.

[Only a Game]

First line of OAG's post and several other references in this thread to the damage caused by injections. I am not getting upset by the way just correcting misconceptions. The days of injecting people to play sport while allowing them to cause serious damage to joints etc are history.

 

Yep, try telling that to Tiger Woods and Andy Murray. Both of whom have had regular cortizone injections before tournaments they have taken part in in last two years. (easily verified if you look)

[deejtee]

Minor point but I never suggested that we held back any operation because of money, although I know some years ago we could not afford scans. I would agree that if our players are seen by specialists then they should have the right tests requested and paid for. I have no knowledge of who has seen our players recently or what they have suggested is wrong with Kyle. The medical profession knows well the situations where injections can be the answer and when rest is the answer although the latter is not likely to appeal to a professional sportsman. Also if the players have seen experts and they have not gone for the "sharpen the knives" approach I would not in fact agree that they are due criticism. So far Kyle, someone with a history of injury, has not been missing nearly as long as others anyway so if criticism is due it may be more appropriate to ask why we appear so dependant on one player.

[vla_di_vla]

Yep, try telling that to Tiger Woods and Andy Murray. Both of whom have had regular cortizone injections before tournaments they have taken part in in last two years. (easily verified if you look)

 

 

Is it definately a hernia or could it be something like this which is commonly misdiagnosed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteitis_pubis This is sometimes treated with injections as it is a nightmare to get rid of

[Only a Game]

Is it definately a hernia or could it be something like this which is commonly misdiagnosed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteitis_pubis This is sometimes treated with injections as it is a nightmare to get rid of

 

Hernia is what I was told via a good source.

[vla_di_vla]

Hernia is what I was told via a good source.

 

Just wondered if that was the reason for the delay. My brother was booked in for a hernia after seeing 2 specialists only to be told by the surgeon that it wasn't a hernia and that it was OP and having come accross this a few times since it seems to be a common mistake.

[Francis Albert]

Never realised so many doctors posted on here.

 

The idea that Hearts scrimped on the cost of medical care on an asset (Driver) worth millions when fit is ludicrous.

 

And given Kyle's salary and value to the club, the same goes for Kyle.

[deejtee]

Finally we get to the point eg that it can be misdiagnosed, that no-one has any definite knowledge of what is the diagnosis and that there are indications for injections.

Enough of this for me. Debating things of a medical nature without any facts is always a bit dodgy. All we can hope is that expert medical opinion is available for our players,

accepting that this is a relative term, and that our coaches find a solution within available playing resource.

[Robbo-Jambo]

Jefferies in his interview seem to suggest that Kyle has had a number of injections but it has been quite difficult to get through to the actual area that is causing the problem.

[Charlie-Brown]

Never realised so many doctors posted on here.

 

The idea that Hearts scrimped on the cost of medical care on an asset (Driver) worth millions when fit is ludicrous.

 

And given Kyle's salary and value to the club, the same goes for Kyle.

i don't think anybody is seriously suggesting we scrimp on any player FA however it think it's fairly self evident that knowing the relatively high cost of arranging private medical procedures at short notice and also the nature of professional sports people that doctors are only ever going to recommend operating as a final option unless there aren't less costly or radical treatments that can possibly be tried first and also medical insurers and spl football clubs aren't so awash with cash that they will always operate immediately if medical opinion says there is a chance that less costly treatments might be effective and operating is the last resort.

[The White Cockade]

The only reason Hearts are going down the injection route is purely in the hope

KK could get back to playing sooner than by having an operation

Mostly because we have so little back up for his position

As it has turned out he probably should have had the operation straightaway and he would

have been back sooner

We miss him big time but with third place practically assured I think it would be madness to risk

his health given his history of long term injuries

Get the operation and get him fully fit for next season

[Francis Albert]

i don't think anybody is seriously suggesting we scrimp on any player FA however it think it's fairly self evident that knowing the relatively high cost of arranging private medical procedures at short notice and also the nature of professional sports people that doctors are only ever going to recommend operating as a final option unless there aren't less costly or radical treatments that can possibly be tried first and also medical insurers and spl football clubs aren't so awash with cash that they will always operate immediately if medical opinion says there is a chance that less costly treatments might be effective and operating is the last resort.

 

 

See your post 41. If an operation was required or recommended I can't believe funds would not be made available. The costs of private medical treatment, outside the USA at least, are not prohibitive when it comes to players worth millions or on salaries of multiple hundreds of thiousands of pounds. However it is perfectly true that an immediate operation may well not be the right procedure (sorry I'm beginning to sound like a doctor now!).

 

BTW Driver is a good example of how predicted times for recovery from an operation may be wildly inaccurate.

[bighusref]

i don't think anybody is seriously suggesting we scrimp on any player FA however it think it's fairly self evident that knowing the relatively high cost of arranging private medical procedures at short notice and also the nature of professional sports people that doctors are only ever going to recommend operating as a final option unless there aren't less costly or radical treatments that can possibly be tried first and also medical insurers and spl football clubs aren't so awash with cash that they will always operate immediately if medical opinion says there is a chance that less costly treatments might be effective and operating is the last resort.

 

That is what you have been saying all thread.

[Charlie-Brown]

That is what you have been saying all thread.

no it's not now your just being moronic and trying to paint everything everybody says as black and white but fine of you want to believe that there's a blank cheque at tynecastle and potential cost choices don't affect decision making or if they do that's somehow 'scrimping' then carry on!

[dellboy1971]

Should get op now

if got op after rangers game should have been back in fortnight What a waste of time

[Francis Albert]

Should get op now

if got op after rangers game should have been back in fortnight What a waste of time

 

 

And your medical qualification dellboy?

[Francis Albert]

no it's not now your just being moronic and trying to paint everything everybody says as black and white but fine of you want to believe that there's a blank cheque at tynecastle and potential cost choices don't affect decision making or if they do that's somehow 'scrimping' then carry on!

 

 

If you want to believe that a few thousand pounds would have stopped Hearts getting a hernia operation for Kyle, if that was the best medical advice, or would have significantly influenced a decision on whether or not he should have one (see your post 41), then ... sorry "moronic" applies more to you.

[Charlie-Brown]

And your medical qualification dellboy?

 

I infer from this article that there at least would seem to be some reluctance from Kyle to have the surgery before trying other treatmen methods first?

 

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/hearts/227229-hearts-make-final-attempt-to-avert-kyle-surgery/?

[Francis Albert]

I infer from this article that there at least would seem to be some reluctance from Kyle to have the surgery before trying other treatmen methods first?

 

http://sport.stv.tv/...-kyle-surgery/?

 

 

... which I suppose is his prerogative. Not Hearts unwillingness to pay for it then?

[Charlie-Brown]

... which I suppose is his prerogative. Not Hearts unwillingness to pay for it then?

 

My stance has been on this thread that operating is usually always the last resort or least favoured option unless there really is no alternative and even then many players & clubs will try to hold off any surgery until the close season if at all possible to minimise player down-time, just this week Rangers admitted that Lee McCulloch's knee had been causing him problems for a while but that surgery as now inevitable - so there are always personal, footballing, medical & financial reasons for trying to possibly avoid surgery as long as that doesn't contradict medical advice or potential exacerbate damage....I'd wager very few players or clubs send players under the knife without first exploring the alternatives. Of course the the finest JKB Doctors on here their 100% hindsight expertise is ALWAYS the correct opinion!

[Charlie-Brown]

Further explanation here ..... Kyle, Obua & Suso doubtful for Hamilton now although Driver back in contention.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/heartofmidlothianfc/Kevin-Kyle-facing-operation-and.6715970.jp?

[The Treasurer]

Further explanation here ..... Kyle, Obua & Suso doubtful for Hamilton now although Driver back in contention.

 

http://www.scotsman....and.6715970.jp?

 

Right, so now you'll agree.

The club and player have tried all alternatives to avoid the need for surgery.

This decision is based on what is best for the player in terms of his overall health and has absolutely NOTHING to do with any costs involved.

Or do you still insist that the club would be prepared to be without one of their most important players for weeks on end rather than spend a few grand on an operation

[Ray Gin]

The only reason Hearts are going down the injection route is purely in the hope

KK could get back to playing sooner than by having an operation

Mostly because we have so little back up for his position

As it has turned out he probably should have had the operation straightaway and he would

have been back sooner

We miss him big time but with third place practically assured I think it would be madness to risk

his health given his history of long term injuries

Get the operation and get him fully fit for next season

 

Is that some sort of poem?

[speedbump]

Right, so now you'll agree.

The club and player have tried all alternatives to avoid the need for surgery.

This decision is based on what is best for the player in terms of his overall health and has absolutely NOTHING to do with any costs involved.

Or do you still insist that the club would be prepared to be without one of their most important players for weeks on end rather than spend a few grand on an operation

 

Exactly as I said yesterday.

[Cut The Crap]

Further explanation here ..... Kyle, Obua & Suso doubtful for Hamilton now although Driver back in contention.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/heartofmidlothianfc/Kevin-Kyle-facing-operation-and.6715970.jp?

 

No mention of Razulis I see.

[bighusref]

no it's not now your just being moronic and trying to paint everything everybody says as black and white but fine of you want to believe that there's a blank cheque at tynecastle and potential cost choices don't affect decision making or if they do that's somehow 'scrimping' then carry on!

 

Ha!

 

I won't try again to suggest that a fit player is more valuable to a club than an unfit player, you are not listening to that.

 

Same old Charlie, not interested in listening, only interested in trotting out a line. Still, you are typing differently than you were when you were talking about the Scotland team, it's amazing how your typing style changes when talking about different subjects.....

[Charlie-Brown]

Right, so now you'll agree.

The club and player have tried all alternatives to avoid the need for surgery.

This decision is based on what is best for the player in terms of his overall health and has absolutely NOTHING to do with any costs involved.

Or do you still insist that the club would be prepared to be without one of their most important players for weeks on end rather than spend a few grand on an operation

 

Nobody ever said this - i certainly didn't , what i said was that operating is almost always the last resort - both from a players, footballing, medical and financial perspective - i mean why immediately pay say ?10K for operation that will definitely put the player out for many weeks when medical advice says there's a possibility that injections costing far less might avoid or delay the need for an operation and enable the player to continue playing meantime - it's always a cost/benefit/risk analysis.

[The Treasurer]

Exactly as I said yesterday.

 

I know, but it still doesn't seem to register with some folk

[Figo GMC]

Nobody ever said this - i certainly didn't , what i said was that operating is almost always the last resort - both from a players, footballing, medical and financial perspective - i mean why immediately pay say ?10K for operation that will definitely put the player out for many weeks when medical advice says there's a possibility that injections costing far less might avoid or delay the need for an operation and enable the player to continue playing meantime - it's always a cost/benefit/risk analysis.

Bearing in mind u can have a knee reconstruction (ie cruciate) op carried out for ?3500-?5000 it would be very suprised if a hernia op would cost anywhere near ?10k, my point being that after a series of injections & consultations, the club would already be well on the way to spending the best part of ?2-3k anyway, that would suggest that money is certainly not & never has been the issue, the club/medical specialists/player etc all have the same aim, to get the player fit as quickly as possible (albeit sometimes it takes longer than anyone anticipated).