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'Judge' Lady Clark


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Are you ******* retarded?

 

What are you talking about mate? I am criticising the judgement, do I have to explain my post? Saying that the judgement sums up the excessively liberal society we live in where all sense of right and wrong is being warped so little thugs like this are seen as the victims and get a slap on the wrist. Can I make my post any clearer?

 

Don't appreciate your offensive comments either.

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What are you talking about mate? I am criticising the judgement, do I have to explain my post? Saying that the judgement sums up the excessively liberal society we live in where all sense of right and wrong is being warped so little thugs like this are seen as the victims and get a slap on the wrist. Can I make my post any clearer?

 

Don't appreciate your offensive comments either.

 

And I don't appreciate your offensive comment.

 

The judgement was wrong, the criminals should have been given longer sentences, of that there is no question. But to blame it on an "excessively liberal society" is utter bollocks and an ignorant point to make. Liberalism does not advocate reduced sentences for reprobates, where did you get that idea? Who are these liberals that you say have condemned us to such a thing?

 

These little thugs are also a product of our society, the fact that young people are going out and committing such heinous crimes points to something systemically wrong within our country, and it's not liberalism. You might want to look at other aspects of society that have lead us down this path, under previous and current Governments where we cannot accommodate prisoners for a sentence that is deserving of their crime because the cells are full with previous failures of the system on short term sentences.

 

You're just so far off the mark, it's unreal. Put down the Daily Mail for a second and think.

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And I don't appreciate your offensive comment.

 

The judgement was wrong, the criminals should have been given longer sentences, of that there is no question. But to blame it on an "excessively liberal society" is utter bollocks and an ignorant point to make. Liberalism does not advocate reduced sentences for reprobates, where did you get that idea? Who are these liberals that you say have condemned us to such a thing?

 

These little thugs are also a product of our society, the fact that young people are going out and committing such heinous crimes points to something systemically wrong within our country, and it's not liberalism. You might want to look at other aspects of society that have lead us down this path, under previous and current Governments where we cannot accommodate prisoners for a sentence that is deserving of their crime because the cells are full with previous failures of the system on short term sentences.

 

You're just so far off the mark, it's unreal. Put down the Daily Mail for a second and think.

 

 

Point to what is offensive about my comment.

 

Your use of the word "retarded" is both childish and ignorant. Not to mention the expletives. The kind of thing kids in the playground level at each other. So don't expect me to now enter into a sensible debate when you lowered the tone.

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Sterling Archer

Point to what is offensive about my comment.

 

Your use of the word "retarded" is both childish and ignorant. Not to mention the expletives. The kind of thing kids in the playground level at each other. So don't expect me to now enter into a sensible debate when you lowered the tone.

 

You've played this well, playing the easily offended card as your argument would get torn to shreds.

 

Bravo sport, bravo.

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Point to what is offensive about my comment.

 

Below.

Sums up the liberal society we live in.

 

 

Your use of the word "retarded" is both childish and ignorant. Not to mention the expletives. The kind of thing kids in the playground level at each other.

 

Would you prefer intellectually disabled? What you said was extremely ignorant, blaming liberals for serious problems in our society is ridiculous and I found such a suggestion offensive.

 

So don't expect me to now enter into a sensible debate when you lowered the tone.

 

You won't enter a sensible debate because you can't. Can you actually back up what you've said, or was it just trash newspaper rhetoric?

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southside1874

Four years!

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Teenage-thugs-caged-after-unprovoked.6713988.jp

 

Lady Clark said that she hoped they both regretted the terrible injuries they had caused.

 

Sorry about the 'outraged' type post but the judiciary has gone ******* mad.

 

If Mark was any relative of mine,or friend, I would be glad they only got 4 years. They would be afraid to come out of jail if it was up to me and I wouldn't have to wait so long to inflict what proper justice is satisfactory. Sometimes I think jail sentences are too long and give the biasderdos too much protection. Judges are usually smart cookies...IMO. :rolleyes:

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I think the statements of regret from the convicts are somewhat undermined by the fact that they harassed and threatened witnesses, attempting to get them to change their evidence or not testify.

 

What did Sheridan get for perjury? Is this not a worse case of perverting the course of justice?

 

Should have been double what they got, so they plead guilty, the accused usually do before it gets to a trial they will lose, makes the judge look on them favourably when it comes to sentencing.

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And I don't appreciate your offensive comment.

 

I don't either, and I agree that he could work his analytical faculties a bit harder, but you shouldn't have said that.

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I don't either, and I agree that he could work his analytical faculties a bit harder, but you shouldn't have said that.

 

 

Pfft.

 

Sums up the liberal society we live in.

;)

Edited by scott_jambo
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ToadKiller Dog

I to would love to live under an authoritarian regime, maybe modeled on the talaban, so instead of watching hearts (to be honest the spl is crap ) we could use tynecastle for forced viewing of the death of 16 year olds or the stoning of disobedient women. Would be great as long as I am the man with the stick.

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Sums up the liberal society we live in. Horrendous.

 

 

 

 

How about "sums up the neo-conservative governed society we live in today, where the ruling classes couldn't give a shit what the peasants do to each other and they actually like short sentencing because it creates a distraction from the root causes of societies ills like unjustifiable warfare on a massive scale. If only they hadn't gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan then we could afford to lock up trash like this pair for years on end. "

 

 

 

For all the Tories waffle on about getting tough on crime have you never noticed that they do nothing about it and they cut staffing to police forces massively every time they get into power?

 

 

 

 

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How about "sums up the neo-conservative governed society we live in today, where the ruling classes couldn't give a shit what the peasants do to each other and they actually like short sentencing because it creates a distraction from the root causes of societies ills like unjustifiable warfare on a massive scale. If only they hadn't gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan then we could afford to lock up trash like this pair for years on end. "

 

 

 

For all the Tories waffle on about getting tough on crime have you never noticed that they do nothing about it and they cut staffing to police forces massively every time they get into power?

 

"what the peasants do to each other" - what do you mean by that? So because people are poor they will inevitably run around battering people? What about personal responsibility? Next you will be telling me those evil ruling classes are the reason that teenagers in Glasgow and Edinburgh to a lesser extent are running about stabbing each other, or wasting their lives on drugs? They have no choice do they? As long as people perpetuate that myth the situation will only get worse.

 

Of course it is all the Tories fault isn't it? In fact Margaret Thatcher's fault, lets be honest, and poor Mr Blair and Mr Brown only had 13 short years to sort it out. Didn't realise I had stumbled into the Labour party forum, sorry.

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Below.

 

 

 

 

 

Would you prefer intellectually disabled? What you said was extremely ignorant, blaming liberals for serious problems in our society is ridiculous and I found such a suggestion offensive.

 

 

 

I love how you think that is any less offensive, poor show. My post referred not to the crime but to the sentencing, so the second sentence above is blown out of the water too.

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i don't give a flying **** what anyone says because that sentence is not proportionate to the crime.

 

there are probably a few contributing reasons for it but whenever i see ridiculously lenient sentences handed out my suspicion always returns to the fact that the UK doesn't want long term prisoners. it's an expensive business after all.

 

absolutely horrendous decision. the sentence added for trying to pervert the course of justice is just the icing on the cake.

 

i hope they both have a miserable existence in prison and that it ruins the rest of their lives.

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I love how you think that is any less offensive, poor show. My post referred not to the crime but to the sentencing, so the second sentence above is blown out of the water too.

 

Blown out the water? What the **** are you talking about? :rofl:

 

Look, you were talking utter shite when you said that this sentence was down to a "liberal society". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and are trying to wriggle your way out of this by making out you're so offended by what I said. I suggest you actually read up on this kind of thing, and not from The Sun or Daily Mail.

 

 

 

"what the peasants do to each other" - what do you mean by that? So because people are poor they will inevitably run around battering people? What about personal responsibility? Next you will be telling me those evil ruling classes are the reason that teenagers in Glasgow and Edinburgh to a lesser extent are running about stabbing each other, or wasting their lives on drugs? They have no choice do they? As long as people perpetuate that myth the situation will only get worse.

 

Of course it is all the Tories fault isn't it? In fact Margaret Thatcher's fault, lets be honest, and poor Mr Blair and Mr Brown only had 13 short years to sort it out. Didn't realise I had stumbled into the Labour party forum, sorry.

 

Previous Governments have to take the blame, these current problems are 30 years in the making. The working classes have been neglected for too long, this is what happens when you don't support them.

 

Your perception of right and wrong, and your ability to understand the consequences of your actions are shaped by the environment you live in. They are a product of society, it's no coincidence that the more you neglect the poor the higher the crime rates get.

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Four years!

 

http://edinburghnews...oked.6713988.jp

 

Lady Clark said that she hoped they both regretted the terrible injuries they had caused.

 

Sorry about the 'outraged' type post but the judiciary has gone ******* mad.

 

The sentences should have been at least double what was given. There were absolutely no mitigating circumstances, from what I can see, and attempts were made by one of the accused to pervert the course of justice, which should also have warranted a harsher punishment.

 

So what's to blame: " ...there is no such thing as society... ", or "liberal society"? I know which one my money would be on...

Edited by Auld Reekin'
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There are a few people involved in this thread who have taken higher Modern Studies and now think they are political philosophers. There have always been animals who commit crimes like this, shit happens.

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There are a few people involved in this thread who have taken higher Modern Studies and now think they are political philosophers. There have always been animals who commit crimes like this, shit happens.

 

I take it you're talking about me, FYI I didn't even take Standard Grade Modern Studies.

 

Would you like to tell me where I'm wrong?

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There are a few people involved in this thread who have taken higher Modern Studies and now think they are political philosophers. There have always been animals who commit crimes like this, shit happens.

 

Animals don't commit crimes: only humans can do this. Human behaviour is very largely determined by our upbringing and the culture and society within which we live. If these are defective to a sufficient extent, then it is all the more likely that individuals produced by them will go on to exhibit dysfunctional and criminal behaviour patterns.

 

I did my highers so long ago it's hard to be 100% certain, but I'm fairly sure that Modern Studies was not one of them! :rolleyes: (Not even sure it had been "invented" by then... :unsure:)

Edited by Auld Reekin'
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And I don't appreciate your offensive comment.

 

The judgement was wrong, the criminals should have been given longer sentences, of that there is no question. But to blame it on an "excessively liberal society" is utter bollocks and an ignorant point to make. Liberalism does not advocate reduced sentences for reprobates, where did you get that idea? Who are these liberals that you say have condemned us to such a thing?

 

These little thugs are also a product of our society, the fact that young people are going out and committing such heinous crimes points to something systemically wrong within our country, and it's not liberalism. You might want to look at other aspects of society that have lead us down this path, under previous and current Governments where we cannot accommodate prisoners for a sentence that is deserving of their crime because the cells are full with previous failures of the system on short term sentences.

 

You're just so far off the mark, it's unreal. Put down the Daily Mail for a second and think.

 

Ask any Liberal and they will tell you that they believe that social factors contribute to differences in the crime rate. For example, how many court cases are put back due to background reports or social work reports etc. The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

People who commit crime do so under individual choice. We make far too many excuses for people of this ilk.

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The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

 

 

Thats not strictly true. Countries with harsher penal systems generally have higher crime rates and those who are focused on rehabilitation and early intervention generally have lower crime rates. Scotland, as a whole, has one of the highest prison populations, per head, anywhere in the World. The USA come top, who arguably, have the harshest penal system anywhere in the world. The main problem with Scotland and the UK as a whole, is its stuck somewhere in the middle, which does not do any good to anyone.

 

As for crime rates, they rose during the Tories, rose then fell under Labour (and I am not a Labour supporter).

Edited by Chester?
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Ask any Liberal and they will tell you that they believe that social factors contribute to differences in the crime rate. For example, how many court cases are put back due to background reports or social work reports etc. The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

People who commit crime do so under individual choice. We make far too many excuses for people of this ilk.

 

 

Bang on, it does not work. But there is no telling the left wingers and dare to disagree with them and they become all indignant.

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Ask any Liberal and they will tell you that they believe that social factors contribute to differences in the crime rate.

 

Ask anyone and they should tell you that, regardless of their political stance.

 

For example, how many court cases are put back due to background reports or social work reports etc.

 

I wouldn't know the number, but are you suggesting that we just rush people through the courts without giving them a fair trial and taking all contributing factors into account?

 

The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

People who commit crime do so under individual choice. We make far too many excuses for people of this ilk.

 

Could you provide some evidence to back this up? What left of centre party would this be? I think I know what you're going to say, but I'd like to hear it and why you think that's the case.

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Animals don't commit crimes: only humans can do this. Human behaviour is very largely determined by our upbringing and the culture and society within which we live. If these are defective to a sufficient extent, then it is all the more likely that individuals produced by them will go on to exhibit dysfunctional and criminal behaviour patterns.

 

I did my highers so long ago it's hard to be 100% certain, but I'm fairly sure that Modern Studies was not one of them! :rolleyes: (Not even sure it had been "invented" by then... :unsure:)

 

Each individual is responsible for their own behaviour after a certain age. Perhaps an 8 year old who is taught to help break into houses could be excused but an 18 year old is capable of thinking rationally and can no longer blame it on parents, income, unemployment, drink, drugs etc. It just does not wash with me.

Edited by scottfras
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Each individual is responsible for their own behaviour after a certain age. Perhaps an 8 year old who is taught to help break into houses could be excused but an 18 year old is capable of thinking rationally and can no longer blame it on parents, income, unemployment, drink, drugs etc. It just does not wash with me.

 

:facepalm:

 

You really don't get it, do you?

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:facepalm:

 

You really don't get it, do you?

 

Seems to me you have contributed very little to this debate either than offensive words and telling everyone else there argument is wrong without elaborating on your grand theory. So please do enlighten us!

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Seems to me you have contributed very little to this debate either than offensive words and telling everyone else there argument is wrong without elaborating on your grand theory. So please do enlighten us!

 

Cool, what would you like me to elaborate on?

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ToadKiller Dog

Crime figures 2010

 

Most crime in Scotland seems to be down 32 year low .

Most violent crime i imagine is Drink / drug fueled .I imagine the chances of the average person being assulted or a victim is very low that doesnt take away the scar such events leave but Scotland for the main part is a safe place to live .

 

More worring is the % of criminals that reoffend that may show that our prison/punishment system needs revamped .

 

These two in the highligted case ,i am not sure if its they have been sent to 4 years minimum or will be avaliabile to get out on early release (if its the later then the judge has got it way wrong ), i hope its the former as i for one would not have wanted to spend all my late teens banged up .It more depends on what they do while inside in terms of learning there lesson .I dont thing locking them up and chucking away the key helps anybody .

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Cool, what would you like me to elaborate on?

 

 

Well, give me your insight into why a young man is attacked so viciously and senselessly and a judge thinks it fit to only give them 4 years? Because the way I see it this is a product of a society that does not enforce parental responsibilities, has lost any sense of right from wrong and with a judicial system that gives more support to the offender than the victim, all the result of socially liberal policies and theories imo.

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Crime figures 2010

 

Most crime in Scotland seems to be down 32 year low .

Most violent crime i imagine is Drink / drug fueled .I imagine the chances of the average person being assulted or a victim is very low that doesnt take away the scar such events leave but Scotland for the main part is a safe place to live .

 

More worring is the % of criminals that reoffend that may show that our prison/punishment system needs revamped .

 

These two in the highligted case ,i am not sure if its they have been sent to 4 years minimum or will be avaliabile to get out on early release (if its the later then the judge has got it way wrong ), i hope its the former as i for one would not have wanted to spend all my late teens banged up .It more depends on what they do while inside in terms of learning there lesson .I dont thing locking them up and chucking away the key helps anybody .

 

 

So what about justice? Would it not help the victim to know that those who perpetrate such crimes are sentenced in such a way as reflects the severity of the crime?

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Commander Harris

I think generally speaking it is fair to say that a conservative society, which has more focus on the responsibility of the individual, will have harsher/stronger* sentences than a liberal society that generally believes that the causes of crime reside, for the most part, in external societal factors.

 

Which approach is correct is up for debate but I don't think it's a particularly outrageous claim to suggest the above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*couldn't think of an appropriate neutral term so take your pick ;)

 

 

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So what about justice? Would it not help the victim to know that those who perpetrate such crimes are sentenced in such a way as reflects the severity of the crime?

 

So, as I asked earlier, what were they actually charged with as this will determine the length of sentence.

 

I also think it's amusing that the Judge is seen as part of this "liberal" conspiracy!

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ToadKiller Dog

So what about justice? Would it not help the victim to know that those who perpetrate such crimes are sentenced in such a way as reflects the severity of the crime?

 

Justice should be blind thats why the lady with the scales wears a blindfold .

I know thats a cold answer but i don't think the judge/jury should take into account the emotion of the case .

 

I presume there is a scale of punishment in which the judge has to make the decision based on what criteria i don't know ,before

they can make the decision , i can see why it seems lenient , if they were over 18 i imagine it would be more severe .

 

As cold as it sounds i think is more important that these two are properly reformed . not that i am sure they will be in our current punishment system . More certainly needs to be done to support victims .

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Well, give me your insight into why a young man is attacked so viciously and senselessly and a judge thinks it fit to only give them 4 years?

 

I don't know why she tought 4 years was acceptable, I certainly never said that was. I'd guess that she didn't want to send two 16 year old boys to prison for the next 10 years(which is what I think they should have got) and have them come out the other side with little chance of doing anything with their lives, only adding to our current problem by just writing these people off. Maybe she was under pressure to reduce sentences as there was not enough space for them to serve a reasonable time?

 

 

Because the way I see it this is a product of a society that does not enforce parental responsibilities, has lost any sense of right from wrong and with a judicial system that gives more support to the offender than the victim, all the result of socially liberal policies and theories imo.

 

This is a product of society, and it's due to social deprivation. We failed to support and protect the most vulnerable in society, and this is the result. The cause of these problems are poverty and a lack of education, that's what leads to these kind of problems. How do you enforce parental responsibilities on someone that has no idea how to care for a child?

 

What liberal policies and theories? You seem to have an extremely warped view of Liberalism. It's not about eating fair trade nuts and telling everyone to drive hybrid cars. It's about equality and making sure everyone gets a fair deal.

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So, as I asked earlier, what were they actually charged with as this will determine the length of sentence.

 

I don't think intent should be the sole basis of the amount of time people are sentenced to.

 

I don't think these two were genuinely trying to kill the victim. However, the results of their crime are far more serious than if they had tried to kill him, and only succeeded in stabbing him in the arm for example.

 

They have arguably inflicted a life sentence on their victim, regardless of what they were intending on doing. 4 years is not enough IMO.

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Justice should be blind thats why the lady with the scales wears a blindfold .

I know thats a cold answer but i don't think the judge/jury should take into account the emotion of the case .

 

I presume there is a scale of punishment in which the judge has to make the decision based on what criteria i don't know ,before

they can make the decision , i can see why it seems lenient , if they were over 18 i imagine it would be more severe .

 

As cold as it sounds i think is more important that these two are properly reformed . not that i am sure they will be in our current punishment system . More certainly needs to be done to support victims .

 

But this is not a question of justice being applied blindly, which means that it takes no account of race, religion, status, wealth etc. It is a case of a justice system which does not leave the victim feel satisfied that they have received anything like justice at all. In that case, it has failed and is in crisis.

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I don't know why she tought 4 years was acceptable, I certainly never said that was. I'd guess that she didn't want to send two 16 year old boys to prison for the next 10 years(which is what I think they should have got) and have them come out the other side with little chance of doing anything with their lives, only adding to our current problem by just writing these people off. Maybe she was under pressure to reduce sentences as there was not enough space for them to serve a reasonable time?

 

 

 

 

This is a product of society, and it's due to social deprivation. We failed to support and protect the most vulnerable in society, and this is the result. The cause of these problems are poverty and a lack of education, that's what leads to these kind of problems. How do you enforce parental responsibilities on someone that has no idea how to care for a child?

 

What liberal policies and theories? You seem to have an extremely warped view of Liberalism. It's not about eating fair trade nuts and telling everyone to drive hybrid cars. It's about equality and making sure everyone gets a fair deal.

 

It should be about that but what it ends us being about is putting the interests of certain groups above the general good.

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There are a few people involved in this thread who have taken higher Modern Studies and now think they are political philosophers. There have always been animals who commit crimes like this, shit happens.

 

 

:blink:

 

 

Ask any Liberal and they will tell you that they believe that social factors contribute to differences in the crime rate. For example, how many court cases are put back due to background reports or social work reports etc. The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

People who commit crime do so under individual choice. We make far too many excuses for people of this ilk.

 

 

Couple of things:

 

1. Conservatives (small c) in general also accept that social factors influence crime rates in different areas.

 

2. Can you provide evidence for this section in bold?

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cashgenerator

And I don't appreciate your offensive comment.

 

The judgement was wrong, the criminals should have been given longer sentences, of that there is no question. But to blame it on an "excessively liberal society" is utter bollocks and an ignorant point to make. Liberalism does not advocate reduced sentences for reprobates, where did you get that idea? Who are these liberals that you say have condemned us to such a thing?

 

These little thugs are also a product of our society, the fact that young people are going out and committing such heinous crimes points to something systemically wrong within our country, and it's not liberalism. You might want to look at other aspects of society that have lead us down this path, under previous and current Governments where we cannot accommodate prisoners for a sentence that is deserving of their crime because the cells are full with previous failures of the system on short term sentences.

 

You're just so far off the mark, it's unreal. Put down the Daily Mail for a second and think.

 

:thumbsup:

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:blink:

 

 

 

 

 

Couple of things:

 

1. Conservatives (small c) in general also accept that social factors influence crime rates in different areas.

 

2. Can you provide evidence for this section in bold?

 

For the last five years of the Tory administration, from the 1992 peak year to 1997, total recorded crimes dropped from 5,591,717 to 4,598,357 - a decrease of 17.7 per cent.

 

From 2002-03 to 2007-08, the past five years of the Labour government, crimes as measured on a different reporting standard have fallen from 5,974,960 to 4,950,671 - a decrease of 17.1 per cent.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/factcheck%2Bhas%2Blabour%2Bgot%2Bthe%2Bbest%2Bcrime%2Brecord%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bcentury/2368067.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7400372/True-scale-of-violent-crime-rise-revealed.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256474/Violent-crime-risen-44-13-years-Labour.html

 

etc etc etc

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For the last five years of the Tory administration, from the 1992 peak year to 1997, total recorded crimes dropped from 5,591,717 to 4,598,357 - a decrease of 17.7 per cent.

 

From 2002-03 to 2007-08, the past five years of the Labour government, crimes as measured on a different reporting standard have fallen from 5,974,960 to 4,950,671 - a decrease of 17.1 per cent.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/factcheck%2Bhas%2Blabour%2Bgot%2Bthe%2Bbest%2Bcrime%2Brecord%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bcentury/2368067.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7400372/True-scale-of-violent-crime-rise-revealed.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256474/Violent-crime-risen-44-13-years-Labour.html

 

etc etc etc

 

 

 

Those figures are very contentious for a start. For a second, they bear absolutely no relation to your point, which was that

The liberal approach to solving crime is clearly aimed more at prevention, however it is has been proved that this approach does not work. Crime figures under left of centre parties gradually rise the longer they are in office whilst at the same time, prison sentences get shorter.

 

They don't prove that the preventative focus does not work.

 

They don't show that crime rises.

 

They don't show that prison sentences get shorter.

 

If you're going to provide evidence to support your point, best make it relevant evidence, eh? But what would I know - I'm just another one of these characters with a Modern Studies Higher who thinks he's a political philosopher... :rolleyes:

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