rattus 68 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I know the 17s were supposed to be playing today but does anyone know if it was on and what was the score cheers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I know the 17s were supposed to be playing today but does anyone know if it was on and what was the score cheers ? They won 3-1 going on about 8-1. Goals from Billy King, Dillan Dunn and Gary Graham. Billy's goal was a great left foot shot into the top right corner from 20 yards. Dillan's goal was even better from 25 yards into the top left corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambosr1985 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 FF Did you see the under 19s against Musselburgh Athletic cannot believe the score, what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 FF Did you see the under 19s against Musselburgh Athletic cannot believe the score, what happened. Training games like these are of little relevance just like Toto's form & goals against junior teams were not a good reflection of how he would perform in an SPL/SFL context. Our U19's are right up there with Rangers & Celtic and at least as good as anybody elses in the SPL - we don't have a monopoly of young talent but then nobody does nor can they expect to - the Old Firm do get a lot of boys still wanting to play for them on the basis of their allegiances. I think we do quite well in general at youth level and bring a reasonably good standard of player to first team level - I don't see any of our SPL competitors doing any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 FF Did you see the under 19s against Musselburgh Athletic cannot believe the score, what happened. No I didn't see it, but I believe that it was the 2nd string U19s & U17s who played against Mussy. The 1st string played against Ormiston Primrose a few days later and won 11-0. Most of the 2nd string players have hardly played any football this season, e.g Murdoch, Hill, Snapkauskas, Kapustas etc. You have to remember that Musselburgh is in the East of Scotland Super League i.e. the top division of the Juniors. Hearts reserve side did beat them 6-2 a few weeks ago (with Wallace and Obua in the side), but in previous seasons the full U19 side have played them in in pre season friendlies and failed to win each time. (at least the games that I saw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambosr1985 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thats not strictly true as Jason Holt for one played for sure. I was at the Hamilton Hearts 19s game earlier in the season and whilst it was not a true 7-0 defeat Hamilton had 5 or 6 players whose skill levels were above those we have. I was also at the sellic game which was a different type of game and more physical, but i doubt as to whether any of them look likely first teamers of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thats not strictly true as Jason Holt for one played for sure. I was at the Hamilton Hearts 19s game earlier in the season and whilst it was not a true 7-0 defeat Hamilton had 5 or 6 players whose skill levels were above those we have. I was also at the sellic game which was a different type of game and more physical, but i doubt as to whether any of them look likely first teamers of the future. Here is Hearts & Hamilton U19 stats this season. Hearts 3RD Hearts played 11 won 7 drawn 1 lost 3 for 32 against 16 points 22 Accies 6TH Hamilton Accies played 13 won 4 drawn 2 lost 7 for 24 against 28 points 14 As you can see Accies have played more, won fewer, lost & drawn more, scored fewer, conceded more & are 8 points worse off having played 2 games more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thats not strictly true as Jason Holt for one played for sure. I was at the Hamilton Hearts 19s game earlier in the season and whilst it was not a true 7-0 defeat Hamilton had 5 or 6 players whose skill levels were above those we have. I was also at the sellic game which was a different type of game and more physical, but i doubt as to whether any of them look likely first teamers of the future. Do u go to many under 19 games as I think that is a grossly unfair view towards them, basing it on a freak result and a bounce match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambosr1985 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Yes i have been to a few, but not so many this season, Jamie Walker is a big miss but i do not see anyone ready to step into the first team which is what its all about, its just my opinion, the boy Holt looks a possible but has maybe 1 more season at Under 19s to make the breakthrough. I was at the cup game and was disappointed, Robinson should be looking to control a game like that and did not, anyone at the Hamilton game will agree about the skill levels; if the ones that are unable to play next season because of their ages and are not going to breakthrough they should be released. Alternatively they may end up like deland, mulrooney or danny thomson ie not playing at all with no chance of breaking through at Hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rattus 68 Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 They won 3-1 going on about 8-1. Goals from Billy King, Dillan Dunn and Gary Graham. Billy's goal was a great left foot shot into the top right corner from 20 yards. Dillan's goal was even better from 25 yards into the top left corner. Cheers mate looks as if the 17s have got there act together after a bit of a shaky start to the season long may it continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yes i have been to a few, but not so many this season, Jamie Walker is a big miss but i do not see anyone ready to step into the first team which is what its all about, its just my opinion, the boy Holt looks a possible but has maybe 1 more season at Under 19s to make the breakthrough. I was at the cup game and was disappointed, Robinson should be looking to control a game like that and did not, anyone at the Hamilton game will agree about the skill levels; if the ones that are unable to play next season because of their ages and are not going to breakthrough they should be released. Alternatively they may end up like deland, mulrooney or danny thomson ie not playing at all with no chance of breaking through at Hearts. Is this guy a new re-incarnation of reinder-boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambosr1985 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You have lost me there Charlie but i know enough about Hearts youth set up to hold my own, and my thoughts are relevant. Answer me this; how many of those Under 19s just now can go hope to get in the first team squad next season, i am all for guys like Thommo etc when they are good enough, but 90% of that Hearts team are not going to make it on what i have watched. Coleen Paterson touched on it a bit in last nights news, when she highlighted the hobo players in the Under 19s. I am delighted Ogleby scored for Wales, but with a physique like he has he would have been Kyles replacement if he was ready, bearing in mind that Obua has been chosen as a CF recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You have lost me there Charlie but i know enough about Hearts youth set up to hold my own, and my thoughts are relevant. Answer me this; how many of those Under 19s just now can go hope to get in the first team squad next season, i am all for guys like Thommo etc when they are good enough, but 90% of that Hearts team are not going to make it on what i have watched. Coleen Paterson touched on it a bit in last nights news, when she highlighted the hobo players in the Under 19s. I am delighted Ogleby scored for Wales, but with a physique like he has he would have been Kyles replacement if he was ready, bearing in mind that Obua has been chosen as a CF recently. Do you think it is realistic to expect all but the most talented young players to immediately step up from youth team level ie U19's straight into SPL first team level ? There was a reason that reserve teams existed for a century or more - clubs needed a stepping stone between those who were too old for youth levels but not yet physically mature or ready for 1st team football, the alternative being to send them away to lower division teams or juniors to toughen them up. You are correct that 90% of any SPL clubs U19's players won't be ready for the first team squads next season but that is because it is unrealistic to expect them to. The Bundesliga Clubs in Germany has first team level, U23, U19, U17 & U15 etc. They clearly feel that U23 is a necessary intermediate stage between U19 and first team level so why the SPL thinks a reserve league is unnecessary is beyond me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 If you do the maths, in a senior squad of around 20 across all ages from 19 to 35, you only can expect 1 or 2 to "make it" each season. However it is not unreasonable that possibly 4 youth players would be retained and tried after age 19 each season in order that the later developers are not discarded. e.g. Temps (who is now 22) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossthejambo Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yes i have been to a few, but not so many this season, Jamie Walker is a big miss but i do not see anyone ready to step into the first team which is what its all about, its just my opinion, the boy Holt looks a possible but has maybe 1 more season at Under 19s to make the breakthrough. I was at the cup game and was disappointed, Robinson should be looking to control a game like that and did not, anyone at the Hamilton game will agree about the skill levels; if the ones that are unable to play next season because of their ages and are not going to breakthrough they should be released. Alternatively they may end up like deland, mulrooney or danny thomson ie not playing at all with no chance of breaking through at Hearts. Deland and Mulrooney were away on loan were they not? And all 3 played in the senior bounce match against East Fife with Danny scoring one of the goals. You've obviously got very high standards of U19 players. I trust JJ's judgement that some of these players will get more chances like Saturday to show what they've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambosr1985 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Deland was on loan at East Fife, did not do well. Danny Thomson looked a player but has not been on loan as far as i am aware so will have virtually missed a years competitive football. Mulrooney not sure about him same as Danny Thomson as far as i am aware You do the maths its the system i am blaming but Hearts are in no position to keep these players, funny enough was speaking to a guy who was no 2 at easter road, he watches hearts and hibs a lot, there is only 1 player at Hearts 19s he reckons has a chance, and no i will not name him on this forum, but i would trust his judgement over all others on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 If you do the maths, in a senior squad of around 20 across all ages from 19 to 35, you only can expect 1 or 2 to "make it" each season. However it is not unreasonable that possibly 4 youth players would be retained and tried after age 19 each season in order that the later developers are not discarded. e.g. Temps (who is now 22) The whole rationale of reserve teams was that you had 5 or 6 players who'd come up from the youth levels and give them breathing space to further develop and 5 or 6 senior squad players either keeping up their fitness or coming back from injury or trying to impress the manager for a starting place etc. If you only expect 1 or 2 per year to make it then the whole investment in youth academies is pointless because this has historically been the norm for the amount of players good enough to come through each year. The purpose of investing in youth academies is to try to INCREASE the supply & quality of home produced players above what you'd normally expect to get anyway without making any extra investment in youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Deland was on loan at East Fife, did not do well. Danny Thomson looked a player but has not been on loan as far as i am aware so will have virtually missed a years competitive football. Mulrooney not sure about him same as Danny Thomson as far as i am aware You do the maths its the system i am blaming but Hearts are in no position to keep these players, funny enough was speaking to a guy who was no 2 at easter road, he watches hearts and hibs a lot, there is only 1 player at Hearts 19s he reckons has a chance, and no i will not name him on this forum, but i would trust his judgement over all others on here. Fair enough that's your view. Having a look at the players will be graduating from the under 19s this year I can see 4 getting contracts where they will need to prove themselves over the year or so. And 5 being released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Fair enough that's your view. Having a look at the players will be graduating from the under 19s this year I can see 4 getting contracts where they will need to prove themselves over the year or so. And 5 being released. I think it's somewhat of a pointless exercise trying to accurately predict who will or won't 'make it' from the youth ranks as there are so many factors than can influence whether a play will make it or even get a chance to - things like who is the manager and what is his attitude towards playing and including younger players, what players have we signed and will this limit a youngsters chances if we've made a few key signings in a position that youngster plays, 1st teams results & performances and good or bad runs making it more or less difficult to change the team and put in younger players due to added pressure or expectation, some young players go through periods of exceptionally good or poor form regardless of their previous abilities etc. For example previously at one time I would have said that Ryan McGowan, Mikey Deland & Johnny Brown were probably the best or most likely prospects to progress as defenders to first team level but due to a combination of factors their chances of progressing have stalled. I think except for the truly exceptional youngsters all you can say is who is doing the best and giving themselves the best opportunity at any given moment in time but that can quickly change and so can their circumstances and chances as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You have lost me there Charlie but i know enough about Hearts youth set up to hold my own, and my thoughts are relevant. Answer me this; how many of those Under 19s just now can go hope to get in the first team squad next season, i am all for guys like Thommo etc when they are good enough, but 90% of that Hearts team are not going to make it on what i have watched. Coleen Paterson touched on it a bit in last nights news, when she highlighted the hobo players in the Under 19s. I am delighted Ogleby scored for Wales, but with a physique like he has he would have been Kyles replacement if he was ready, bearing in mind that Obua has been chosen as a CF recently. Hi, I do not watch youth football like the three guys replying to you above so maybe my points are not as worthwhile but I just felt that I needed to ask you about this post in red. I have not seen these Hibs players that are in the Scotland U21s playing for Scotland but i have seen them playing for Hibs, none of them are particularly impressive and I do not think any of them would get near our current first 11 and I do mean near. You mention thomson for Hearts who is in the Scotland U21s alongside them, so assume you are referring to last years U19s- this season's U21s? *Wotherspoon has done nothing of note in the first team of a relegation candidate club. *Hanlon and Booth are part of one of the worst defences in British proffesional football. *Galbraith is not even half the player that Templeton is. I certainly would not rate any of those four boys above Thomson, Templeton, or Novikovas, from what i have seen of them in the first teams of our two clubs. Realisticaly how many players normaly go on to command first team places after coming through the ranks at youth level at any club? I really doubt that many clubs get more than us and if you must use Hibs as an example then i have to say that it would be a doddle getting into the first team at Easter Road just now compared to tynecastle, something that I believe is reflected in the 29 point gap between the two teams. EDIT: Sorry, I was talking about the former U19s from last season that are in the Scotland U21 team just now. Not the current Scotland U19s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Compared to some of the 'best prospects' that sign for Celtic, Rangers, Hearts etc other young players of perceived lesser ability than others at younger age groups can end up signing for Hibs, Kilmarnock or whoever and because they might end up getting more first team chances at an earlier opportunity depending on the club can end up developing quicker and or become better players because of it and people then point the finger of blame and assume supposedly inferior youth development at the bigger clubs when in reality it's far harder to get regular first team opportunties unless the club is specifically focused on promoting from within as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The whole rationale of reserve teams was that you had 5 or 6 players who'd come up from the youth levels and give them breathing space to further develop and 5 or 6 senior squad players either keeping up their fitness or coming back from injury or trying to impress the manager for a starting place etc. If you only expect 1 or 2 per year to make it then the whole investment in youth academies is pointless because this has historically been the norm for the amount of players good enough to come through each year. The purpose of investing in youth academies is to try to INCREASE the supply & quality of home produced players above what you'd normally expect to get anyway without making any extra investment in youth. The 1 or 2 that I was referring to were those who I would expect to make the grade with Hearts. Even respected academies like Ajax are only expecting 1 or 2 per annum to make it with them. There is nothing to say that the others couldn't have a successful career as professional footballer at a lower level. Unfortunately, the financial reality is that we cannot hope to develop players to have long term careers with Hearts (i.e. we can't afford to pay top wages). The current priority appears to focus on the exceptional players and sell them on to the EPL at a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The 1 or 2 that I was referring to were those who I would expect to make the grade with Hearts. Even respected academies like Ajax are only expecting 1 or 2 per annum to make it with them. There is nothing to say that the others couldn't have a successful career as professional footballer at a lower level. Unfortunately, the financial reality is that we cannot hope to develop players to have long term careers with Hearts (i.e. we can't afford to pay top wages). The current priority appears to focus on the exceptional players and sell them on to the EPL at a premium. Of course the only way the club can ever hope to recoup a significant chunk of the debt it has built up over the years is via selling players on for ?1M+ transfer fees .... however once the likes of Wallace, Driver, Templeton & others have moved on up the football ladder Hearts will still need players of sufficient quality to be reasonably good and competent SPL players - not every player will be a star or top level player - there should and will be opportunities for some guys to build a 'Pressley' or 'Hartley' type career ie not really good enough to be in demand by the really top clubs but good enough to have a good career in Scotland and maybe make the International teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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