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Who could flourish under a proper Manager?


hearts_crazy

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hearts_crazy

Take our team including the subs used on Saturday, most underperforming as usual, no will to win a must win match, seem to have given up on this season despite the faint chance that despite it all we could still finish 3rd (before the Falkirk game anyway, ludicrously unlikely now, but not impossible - for those about to scoff at me for mentioning 3rd, please note that if we had beaten both St Midden and Falkirk we would now be 7 points behind Utd, and we play them next). Which of these players do you believe are underperforming and could come good under a proper Manager who has more of a clue than someone who plays Calum Elliot as a lone Striker (FFS) and which are beyond hope and shouldn't be in our 1st team in the first place. I'll start us off:

 

Banks - Our most consistent performer, I think he's a really good goalie TBH

 

Neilson - Hasn't got it, defensively poor, has no pace, couldn't pass wind, time to go

 

Berra - Could become a really good Defender under a proper Manager, he's not a Captain though

 

Zaliukas - Total bombscare, showed some promise, but I think he would be best plying his trade in Lithuania

 

Wallace - Not convinced he is a proper left Back, has a lot of potential, new Manager could discover his best position and allow him to realise that potential

 

Mikoliunas - He has started showing glimpses of what he could be, I think he is one who really would benefit from proper coaching by a proper Coach

 

Palazeuelos - Has the potential, he would come on leaps and bounds under a proper Manager

 

Stewart - Thinks he's better than he is (FFS stop allowing him to take set pieces BTW), bit of a heedless chicken, tries too hard, don't know if he's beyond help though

 

Kingston - Quality player a new Manager may be able to get him to focus on HMFC and the game at hand

 

Cesnauskas - Definately has the potential to be good, if anyone needs direction it's him though, needs an attitude reconfiguration

 

Elliot. - He just hasn't got it, you could bring Alex Ferguson in and it would make little difference, you can't polish a turd. Time to go Calum

 

 

Ksanavicius - Attitude problem, I think someone could sort him out, but i'd like him to just go now TBH, can't be doing with non-triers

 

Mole - The jury's out on him, not seen enough of him to decide whether proper coaching would sort him out, i'd like to think it would. Give him one more season and if he clearly is just another Calum Elliot then bye bye

 

Screpis - I want him to be starting ahead of Stewart, I think he could prove to be a good signing

 

My use of the words 'Proper Manager' are quite deliberate BTW, Shaggy ain't one of them.

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rudi must stay

if we got a real good manager they would all flourish. Look at when Burley came in, even McAllister started playing well.

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Jambo Hoggie

I think Elliot would turn out ok under a proper manager. He was doin quite well under Rix (just my opinion. Ill probably get ripped now):confused:

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pennantjambo
if we got a real good manager they would all flourish. Look at when Burley came in, even McAllister started playing well.

 

Even the fans would begin to flourish again. simple psychology m8.

 

Jeffries built a team spirit and showed real passion.

 

Burley also infused a team spirit and with probably slightly technically better footballers than JJ had, he encouraged dare I say it some free flowing football and flair during his short reign.

 

Levein is a known quantity at Hearts but too defensively minded IMO.

 

We have also witnessed what McGhee has done at Motherwell so far, and with probably less quality at his disposal (although some would now say that is debateable)

 

I do feel that McGhee must have learned from Fergie, and, like McLeish would have tapped into that from time to time. His success with the Dons and Tic can only be good experience.

 

his impeccable conduct and handling of the media has'nt gone unnoticed either and I think that if he could build a half decent side at Tynie challenging the OF then we would also see some passion.

 

its a crucial make or break appointment this time for Vlad and IMO one where the head has to rule the heart.

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loveofthegame
I think Elliot would turn out ok under a proper manager. He was doin quite well under Rix (just my opinion. Ill probably get ripped now):confused:

 

Nope i agree. I think that with a good manager and more quality brought in that in particular, Elliot, Wallace, Berra and Jonsson would flourish

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Charlie-Brown

Berra Zaliukas Karipidis Wallace Goncalves Stewart Jonsson Driver Miko Chesney Elliot Mole Nade Pinilla

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I know it's de rigueur to destroy Neilson on here, but any other manager in the league would have him playing better than he is right now. No-one here is going to tell me that the likes of Martyn Corrigan, Paul Quinn or David van Zanten etc etc are better players than Robbie - yet he's the worst RB in the league.

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Dirk Diggler
I know it's de rigueur to destroy Neilson on here, but any other manager in the league would have him playing better than he is right now. No-one here is going to tell me that the likes of Martyn Corrigan, Paul Quinn or David van Zanten etc etc are better players than Robbie - yet he's the worst RB in the league.

 

Martyn Corrigan, Paul Quinn and David Van Zanten are all better football players than Robbie Neilson.

 

:)

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Dr Ian Malcolm

With a bit of coaching Goncalves could be a great left back for Hearts. He's got all the physical attributes and is generally good in the tackle. A bit positional awareness and he'd be a very good full back.

 

I don't actually think he's as bad on the ball as people make out. The fact that he very nearly loses it a lot and gives the fans heart attacks in the process make him seem technically poor, but he gets away weith it more often than not.

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Martyn Corrigan, Paul Quinn and David Van Zanten are all better football players than Robbie Neilson.

 

:)

 

I'm sure you are too.

 

:P

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Berra Zaliukas Karipidis Wallace Goncalves Stewart Jonsson Driver Miko Chesney Elliot Mole Nade Pinilla

 

A decent manager would empty Zaclueless, the lapdug, Clum and Adrian for starters. As for Pinilla WTF is the point. :mad:

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Charlie-Brown
With a bit of coaching Goncalves could be a great left back for Hearts. He's got all the physical attributes and is generally good in the tackle. A bit positional awareness and he'd be a very good full back.

 

I don't actually think he's as bad on the ball as people make out. The fact that he very nearly loses it a lot and gives the fans heart attacks in the process make him seem technically poor, but he gets away weith it more often than not.

 

Goncalves problems are mostly all in his own head - he has lost all the confidence & composure he had when he first signed - prior to getting injured in the semi final win over Hibs he was immense and displayed strength, pace, composure & confidence - he didn't do anything clever he just played to his strengths and when he had the ball made a simple sensible pass to one of his team mates but that was enough.

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Charlie-Brown
A decent manager would empty Zaclueless, the lapdug, Clum and Adrian for starters. As for Pinilla WTF is the point. :mad:

 

Wrong - a decent manager would improve his players, address & improve their weak points as well as build on their strengths, improve their confidence levels & self belief, get problem players playing again or help find them another club.

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Toxteth O'Grady
Goncalves problems are mostly all in his own head - he has lost all the confidence & composure he had when he first signed - prior to getting injured in the semi final win over Hibs he was immense and displayed strength, pace, composure & confidence - he didn't do anything clever he just played to his strengths and when he had the ball made a simple sensible pass to one of his team mates but that was enough.

 

 

That is the problem I see with most of the team just now. They are all playing with the fear of losing. It seems that they are frightened to try to beat a player in case they lose the ball and our midfielders are reluctant to make a run into the box because they are frightened the move will break down and they will be caught out of position. It's safety first football.

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Wrong - a decent manager would improve his players, address & improve their weak points as well as build on their strengths, improve their confidence levels & self belief, get problem players playing again or help find them another club.

 

QOTS are in a Scottish Cup Semi Final, they emptied Adrain back to us quick as. ;) As for zacluless and the lapdug funny how no other clubs have come in for them yet we sell Velicka. :mw_rolleyes:

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Berra Zaliukas Karipidis Wallace Goncalves Stewart Jonsson Driver Miko Chesney Elliot Mole Nade Pinilla

 

It wouldn`t be very hard for him to flourish under a new manager, as he`s done bugger @ll in his time at Hearts, up to now apart from pick up a wage for feck all , he`s due to give something back to the club soon ......surely.

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Driver, Wallace, Berra, Karipidis, MacDonald, Mole (maybe), Kingston, Thomson, Elliott (maybe), Miko, Chesny, Ruben, Jonsson and Stewart can all become good players for Hearts under a steady manager with good tactical awareness and knows how to tell his team to pass and move. Not hump the ball up the pitch and hope for the best.

 

We must bring in new strikers though as we are so short in that department at the moment. And it doesnt help when you only have one playing up front on his own and not supported by his midfield/wingers. Then decide to take that one striker off and put on another to play up front on his own. Change the bloody formation.

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if we got a real good manager they would all flourish. Look at when Burley came in, even McAllister started playing well.

 

 

I think this is accurate. Some have suffered more than others, but the general picture is that all of the players are suffering from a dreadful lack of confidence without proper management. There can be doubt that the joke set-up of the last two (three?) seasons has inflicted considerable damage on the morale of this group of players.

 

In particular, I think Stewart, Goncalves, Neilson, Miko and Cesnauskis would flourish under a system that approximated to footballing normality. I base this opinion on the way I have seen these players perform under actual football managers or at least in a set-up in which the echo of sanity was still audible.

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Not many of them.

 

Despite the claims made by many that VR had an eye for a player and said they were fine with his interference in transfer matters, the vast majority of his signings have been absolutely awful. Not just in terms of ability, but also value for money.

 

Out of the current squad I'd only keep.

 

Banks, Berra, Wallace, Ruben, Driver and either 1 of Miko/Cesnauskis.

 

The rest can go, seriously.

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portobellojambo1
Wrong - a decent manager would improve his players, address & improve their weak points as well as build on their strengths, improve their confidence levels & self belief, get problem players playing again or help find them another club.

 

I actually agree with the original poster. I think any new manager coming in would release the likes of Zaliukas, Elliot, Ksanavicius amongst others, and would do as Burley did, target specific players in specific positions who would help bring out the best in the remaining core of the side.

 

I think with the proper guidance we will begin to see the midfield operate like a unit again. Stewart is frustrated at the moment, plays his part in causing the frustration undoubtedly, but he is frustrated, and is playing in what I would class angry mode. We will not see the best of him until that part of the team is working as a unit. As the original poster says I also think that Palazuelos will develop even more in his game, as will both Kingston and Jonsson. Their roles will be spelt out to them, they will be encouraged in them and they will progress in the right direction. I would expect to see a new right back come, or an existing player take over that role, a new wide player on the right and a brand new strike force, important factors in getting the best out of the midfield engine. There are other positions which new a rethink but these are immediate weaknesses.

 

The main reason I want to see as vast a clear out as possible is it takes away any idea of favouritism, or doubt in the mind of the fans that players who have underperformed have been forced on any new manager.

 

Whoever comes in as manager must be allowed to retain who he wants to retain, release who he wants to release and supplement the team with players he believes will be able to play the system he believes is right for Hearts, something that is not happening at the moment.

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funktasticlad

I think most of the current 1st team squad would improve if the right manager came in and showed them what its about. Mcghee has done wonders at well in terms of getting the best out of players that were rank last season. My mate is a well season ticket holder and last season he thought David Clarkson and Jim Patterson were 1st division players at best, this season is a different story, Clarkson is prob one of they're most consistant performers and Patterson a palyer they signed for nothing that started off at dundee utd as a left winger has recently signed for plymouth for 250k and he had been playing at left back.

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If someone could teach Goncalvez not to be terrified of the round white thing (i.e the BALL), he could be a class act.

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Charlie-Brown

Players have contracts so unless buyers can be lined up and those players want to move to those clubs then I don't see how a mass clear out is possible given Hearts don't have money to terminate a huge number of contracts whilst at the same time providing a transfer kitty for a new manager so as I see it whoever comes in will have to work with & improve what he's got unless he can sell players to generate transfer funds or if Romanov decides to increase our debt levels to fund a big transfer & wages kitty, pay players off etc.

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portobellojambo1
Players have contracts so unless buyers can be lined up and those players want to move to those clubs then I don't see how a mass clear out is possible given Hearts don't have money to terminate a huge number of contracts whilst at the same time providing a transfer kitty for a new manager so as I see it whoever comes in will have to work with & improve what he's got unless he can sell players to generate transfer funds or if Romanov decides to increase our debt levels to fund a big transfer & wages kitty, pay players off etc.

 

I always got the impression, from listening to some on here, that we have no debt, it is just insignificant figures which must be shown on a balance sheet, and which UBIG/UKIO Bankas will stand guarantor to come what may.

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Charlie-Brown
I always got the impression, from listening to some on here, that we have no debt, it is just insignificant figures which must be shown on a balance sheet, and which UBIG/UKIO Bankas will stand guarantor to come what may.

 

UBIG / UKIO are subsidising us and providing financial life support - however Hearts are losing money hand over fist and have been for a decade and increasingly in the last 2 years - loss making just increases indebtedness and eats into future money that could be invested in the team or elsewhere to improve the club.

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Auld Reekin'
Players have contracts so unless buyers can be lined up and those players want to move to those clubs then I don't see how a mass clear out is possible given Hearts don't have money to terminate a huge number of contracts whilst at the same time providing a transfer kitty for a new manager so as I see it whoever comes in will have to work with & improve what he's got unless he can sell players to generate transfer funds or if Romanov decides to increase our debt levels to fund a big transfer & wages kitty, pay players off etc.

 

All sadly true, and made even more frustrating by the fact that apparently we do have money to burn when it comes to such things as:

paying for Pinilla's long-term rehabilitation from his many physical and psychological problems*;

filling up the "first-team" squad with absolute no-hopers like Beniusis, Ivaskevicius, Klimek, Kurskis & Pilibaitis (I'm being very charitable here by not including Ksanavicius in that list...);

paying Makela to do nothing at all (not his fault, in my view);

signing Screpis only when forced to do so by the threat of legal action and then rarely playing him.

 

I could go on. And on... and on... As does the madness surrounding the way we are being run. (But I won't.)

 

(*allegedly)

 

:banghead2::torture::hae18:

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You just don't know how certain players are going to react to a new management team, different training regime etc until it happens. That's why its a risk for us to be buying or selling anyone when we know a new manager will be coming in the summer. We should stick with who we've got and wait to see what he thinks.

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All sadly true, and made even more frustrating by the fact that apparently we do have money to burn ...

 

It's all been one colossal, protracted, postmodern artistic joke.

 

Romanov is the KLF.

 

41XRGNT29ML__SS500__thumb.jpg

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I think this is accurate. Some have suffered more than others, but the general picture is that all of the players are suffering from a dreadful lack of confidence without proper management. There can be doubt that the joke set-up of the last two (three?) seasons has inflicted considerable damage on the morale of this group of players.

 

In particular, I think Stewart, Goncalves, Neilson, Miko and Cesnauskis would flourish under a system that approximated to footballing normality. I base this opinion on the way I have seen these players perform under actual football managers or at least in a set-up in which the echo of sanity was still audible.

 

Agree with all of that but would add Lee Wallace, Andy Driver and Christophe Berra into the list of names that would flourish with the proper guidance.

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In my opinion there are two key ingredients missing from the Hearts side.

1. Motivation, which bring belief and confidence.

2. Shape - While the back four keep shape and change as the team move forward the rest of the side often leave me wondering where they are supposed to be, and why they don't make space for other players.

 

Both these issues come from the top. While some might say that the Vlad card upsets this applecart, the bottom line is that it is the Managers place to be the shield, to be respected as the leader by the players and to motivate the team into being one united unit to win games.

 

Every player would benefit from a top manager, as was seen when GB was at Tynecastle. CL and JJ made players play to their potential, some even beyond what could have been expected.

 

IMO Hearts should now make the decision, after all top six is not going to happen - Either give Frail the job or appoint, unless of course the chosen one is under contract and things are sorted.

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Craig Gordons Gloves

I'm chuckling at a few of the comments here - about the players lacking confidence and being scared to do anything. Which i believe is true, i also believe that this is caused in the most part by the reaction and attitude of the crowd at tynecastle these days. Whenever a player makes a mistake, the crowd are on them - and in the main, it is even worse when certain players make mistakes. Yes, a new manager would give them belief and confidence, but we have to look at ourselves as well. Im not saying we give blind support to anyone that takes the field - we just need to be more aware of the impact of our actions.

 

Time was that it was the opposition that were scared of playing at tynie, now it appears that it is our own players that are **** scared of playing there. Listening to HW on Saturday, the actual comment was - 'we have 10 minutes before the crowd turn' - this was almost true, it took 13 minutes before you could hear it.

 

I was one of the worst when i was an ST holder - gettin on players backs for the smallest mistake.

 

I suppose my point is that many first teamers would play better under a proper manager, and they would also play even better in front of a less hostile home support.

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Charlie-Brown
I'm chuckling at a few of the comments here - about the players lacking confidence and being scared to do anything. Which i believe is true, i also believe that this is caused in the most part by the reaction and attitude of the crowd at tynecastle these days. Whenever a player makes a mistake, the crowd are on them - and in the main, it is even worse when certain players make mistakes. Yes, a new manager would give them belief and confidence, but we have to look at ourselves as well. Im not saying we give blind support to anyone that takes the field - we just need to be more aware of the impact of our actions.

 

Time was that it was the opposition that were scared of playing at tynie, now it appears that it is our own players that are **** scared of playing there. Listening to HW on Saturday, the actual comment was - 'we have 10 minutes before the crowd turn' - this was almost true, it took 13 minutes before you could hear it.

 

I was one of the worst when i was an ST holder - gettin on players backs for the smallest mistake.

 

I suppose my point is that many first teamers would play better under a proper manager, and they would also play even better in front of a less hostile home support.

 

Very good point - I am as guilty as anyone at having a go at certain players once patience finally snaps however it is counter-productive - it's better to say nothing than undermine our own players / team - you can always boo your displeasure at half time - full time - on forums etc.

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I'm chuckling at a few of the comments here - about the players lacking confidence and being scared to do anything. Which i believe is true, i also believe that this is caused in the most part by the reaction and attitude of the crowd at tynecastle these days. Whenever a player makes a mistake, the crowd are on them - and in the main, it is even worse when certain players make mistakes. Yes, a new manager would give them belief and confidence, but we have to look at ourselves as well. Im not saying we give blind support to anyone that takes the field - we just need to be more aware of the impact of our actions.

 

Time was that it was the opposition that were scared of playing at tynie, now it appears that it is our own players that are **** scared of playing there. Listening to HW on Saturday, the actual comment was - 'we have 10 minutes before the crowd turn' - this was almost true, it took 13 minutes before you could hear it.

 

I was one of the worst when i was an ST holder - gettin on players backs for the smallest mistake.

 

I suppose my point is that many first teamers would play better under a proper manager, and they would also play even better in front of a less hostile home support.

 

 

With guys like Neilson and Elliot the real problem is not confidence - it is total lack of football ability!

 

God could not make these two into footballers, never mind a proper manager!

 

Calum (bodybag) Elliot was shown up on Saturday to be exactly what he is - USELESS!

 

and as for Robbie shinning the ball over the touchline in the 2nd half as he tried to control the ball - EMBARRESSING!

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Who could flourish under a proper manager?

 

Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

 

The whole club would benefit, well, even Lippi could not make Neilson a competent football player.

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I think that there are obviously players who are not SPL standard in Ksnavicius, Kurskis, McCann, Ivaskevicius in the first team squad. They should all be cleared out.

 

But with most of the rest - a proper manager, who could look at the side's strengths and weaknesses, sign 5 players in key positions such as centre half, ball winner, an attacking midfielder and 2 strikers. Then they could get the best from the rest of the squad, most of whom have something to offer.

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With guys like Neilson and Elliot the real problem is not confidence - it is total lack of football ability!

 

God could not make these two into footballers, never mind a proper manager!

 

Calum (bodybag) Elliot was shown up on Saturday to be exactly what he is - USELESS!

 

and as for Robbie shinning the ball over the touchline in the 2nd half as he tried to control the ball - EMBARRESSING!

 

 

Graham Rix seemed to manage it with Elliot..:eek:

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Graham Rix seemed to manage it with Elliot..:eek:

 

Did he? I didn?t think so. At the time I said I couldn?t see what all the fuss was about Elliot.

 

Elliot was not much use under Rix. He had far better players around him but still used to miss a lot of chances and never scored after New Year?s Celtic game. That was 4-5 months of no goals for Rix.

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Did he? I didn?t think so. At the time I said I couldn?t see what all the fuss was about Elliot.

 

Elliot was not much use under Rix. He had far better players around him but still used to miss a lot of chances and never scored after New Year?s Celtic game. That was 4-5 months of no goals for Rix.

 

 

I disagree, there were times in 2005/6 when Elliot was our best centre forward. From memory he was the only one of our strikers to start every one of 4 goal victories over Hibs and contributed well in all of those games, scoring in the 4-1 at Tynecastle under Rix.

 

It is obvious he is not a goal scorer but I think with the right coaching he could be a good footballer. Thinking back to the start of 2006/7, the media were bewildered by Hearts decision to loan Elliot to Motherwell, this can only be based on their objective opinions that he was an excellent prospect. I even remember at the time, that then Premiership Sheffield United were credited with taking him on loan.

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Berra Zaliukas Karipidis Wallace Goncalves Stewart Jonsson Driver Miko Chesney Elliot Mole Nade Pinilla

 

Given you've always maintained we don't need a manager Charlie, why would that be the case? The thread was titled 'Do we Need a Manager' and was on the previous incarnation of KB, before you ask.....

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Charlie-Brown
Given you've always maintained we don't need a manager Charlie, why would that be the case? The thread was titled 'Do we Need a Manager' and was on the previous incarnation of KB, before you ask.....

 

Incorrect Martin that thread was entitled 'the importance of a manager' and i actually tried to discuss a talksport debate on the matter how EPL clubs but most notably chelsea had narrowed the functions of a manager & split responsibility between other key functions like scouting, youth development, player relations & contracts etc. I deliberately tried to avoid discussing Hearts on that thread despite repeated attempts by others to try put words in my mouth despite them being completely unable to back that up with anything I'd posted.

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With a decent manager our current squad could transform into a team challenging for 3rd quite easily.

Even a player like Ivaskevicius has shown some ability at times. If properly managed he may not be the complete liability people think he is.

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Incorrect Martin that thread was entitled 'the importance of a manager' and i actually tried to discuss a talksport debate on the matter how EPL clubs but most notably chelsea had narrowed the functions of a manager & split responsibility between other key functions like scouting, youth development, player relations & contracts etc. I deliberately tried to avoid discussing Hearts on that thread despite repeated attempts by others to try put words in my mouth despite them being completely unable to back that up with anything I'd posted.

 

 

Whilst I have your attention...

 

Do you now accept that Hearts need a strong, experienced, head coach with full autonomy over team selection and a significant say in player recruitment?

 

Do you accept that the performance of the Hearts first team, since we ceased to have this, has been an absolute disaster?

 

Do you accept that Romanov took a reckless and irresponsible financial gamble with Hearts finances in his first season in charge?

 

Finally, do you accept that Romanov's overall running of the footballing side of the club, has seen a decline in the teams performance year on year since he assumed full control?

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rudi must stay
The entire team could flourish.

 

They would all benefit in some way.

 

similar to what I said. Very true tho

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Charlie-Brown
Whilst I have your attention...

 

Do you now accept that Hearts need a strong, experienced, head coach with full autonomy over team selection and a significant say in player recruitment? Do you accept that the performance of the Hearts first team, since we ceased to have this, has been an absolute disaster?

 

The performances of the team & league position declined without doubt, disaster is probably exaggeration given we have beaten every SPL team bar Dundee Utd this season.

 

Do you accept that Romanov took a reckless and irresponsible financial gamble with Hearts finances in his first season in charge?

 

It was a gamble whilst the stadium was not built - I posted 2 links last week to 2 articles showing George Foulkes comments - 1 from November 2006 and one from last week - in both he talks about the urgency to get the stadium reconstructed to enable increased revenues as long term this is the only way to tackle Hearts debts & provide a platform for a successful team - in the earlier article it states that Hearts intended to play at Murrayfield from the beginning of 2006-07 season whilst reconstruction work took place - virtually all the higher earning players got signed or improved contracts in that period - obviously the stadium move didn't happen and the new stadium is still some way of - therefore attempts to reign in spending by using academy players and kaunas players in preference to higher earners and selling or releasing higher earners has been apparent since then.

 

Finally, do you accept that Romanov's overall running of the footballing side of the club, has seen a decline in the teams performance year on year since he assumed full control?

 

A massive improvement in year 1 - an average SPL finish in year 2 and a rubbish season in year 3 (this season)

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if we got a real good manager they would all flourish. Look at when Burley came in, even McAllister started playing well.

 

Agreed.

 

A bit of inspiration, motivation and confidence goes a long way and a decent manager generally tends to instill these things in his/ her players/ staff. A good manager improves everything/ body. It's true wherever you work; whatever indusrty, sector or business.

 

As well as a decent coaching set up and othodox coaching plan that will teach players how to play football.

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Did he? I didn?t think so. At the time I said I couldn?t see what all the fuss was about Elliot.

 

Elliot was not much use under Rix. He had far better players around him but still used to miss a lot of chances and never scored after New Year?s Celtic game. That was 4-5 months of no goals for Rix.

 

What? Apart from scoring twice against Aberdeen and against Hibs in the Mercer derby?

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