Cannon Fodder v Madrid

[vegas-voss]

Weekly slice of La Liga destruction 0-1 Madrid so far.Barca on later to do the same.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

What a goal Ronaldo. That was about 100mph!

[Denzil]

Got to love the arrogance on his face after it. Almost like "did you expect me to miss there"?

 

 

[The Merse]

Some of the odds on the Barca game are just ridiculous.

 

Barca 1/10 to win.

Sociedad 22/1 to win.

 

Messi to score anytime is 1/5

[The Merse]

Took all of 8 minutes for Barca to take the lead tonight.

 

Great move as ever.

 

Sociedad now 125/1 to win.

 

:santa1:

[The Merse]

Anyone watching the X-factor over this needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

 

Privilege to watch this Barcelona side.

 

Another brilliant, brilliant goal there.

 

2-0.

[jamboinglasgow]

Amazing goal by Messi to make it 3-0. From just past the half-way line, he and Dani Alves played about 5 or 6 one-twos off each other before Messi slotted it in. If you can watch highlights on youtube after the game, watch it just for that.

[bistokid]

And Messi again. Freak.

[bertracoon]

Barca are ridiculous. If they keep this form up surely no-one will get near them for anything this season.

 

Awesome to watch

[jamboinglasgow]

Full time 5-0 to Barca (Bojan got a goal late on.) On the tv they have just said that Xavi has broken the record for the season of (I think) most passes in a game, 126 and he only played just over 60 mins.

 

Just a joy to watch.

[The Merse]

Incredible team.

[Footballfirst]

Amazing goal by Messi to make it 3-0. From just past the half-way line, he and Dani Alves played about 5 or 6 one-twos off each other before Messi slotted it in. If you can watch highlights on youtube after the game, watch it just for that.

Don't exaggerate JiG. It was only 3 one-twos Messi-Alves-Messi-Alves-Messi-Alves-Messi-GOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLL

 

The 4 dummies before shooting his 2nd was pretty special too.

 

They say that players don't reach their peak until they are 28 or so. I can't wait for 5 years time to see how good the laddie will be. IMO he could almost be as good as Gareth Bale

[jamboinglasgow]

Don't exaggerate JiG. It was only 3 one-twos Messi-Alves-Messi-Alves-Messi-Alves-Messi-GOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLL

 

The 4 dummies before shooting his 2nd was pretty special too.

 

They say that players don't reach their peak until they are 28 or so. I can't wait for 5 years time to see how good the laddie will be. IMO he could almost be as good as Gareth Bale

 

Ok meant 5 or 6 passes then.

 

And Gareth Bale could almost be as good as Templeton

[The Merse]

Barcelona have scored 24 goals in their last 5 league games.

 

 

1 short of averaging 5 a match, just mental stats.

[Kendoll]

Just a joy to watch. It was 5 going on 10 tonight, the close control and movement is something special!

 

Noticed that folk are selling the Barca v Real game on Ebay, obviously taped from the telly but think I might invest. This Barcelona team are the best team I have seen in my lifetime (26 y.o.)

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

When can we start saying Messi is the best ever?

[vegas-voss]

All Real Madrid's spending has done has made Barca an even better team than they were.I mean bar one or two games they have kept up consistently brilliant performances for 2.5 seasons now.

[shaun.lawson]

When can we start saying Messi is the best ever?

 

When he either wins the World Cup singlehandedly, or is part of the finest team ever to win it.

 

Amid all the constant ###### over Barca, when is anyone going to pay attention to the following simple point?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/mar/28/barcelona-real-madrid-spain

 

Madrid and Barcelona will earn approximately ?120m in rights each year until 2013. Last season's third-placed side, Sevilla earn around ?20m; Valencia, currently third, make under ?30m ? less than Portsmouth. Right throughout the league, the imbalance is extraordinary. Competing is impossible.

 

It's laughable.

[zizou]

All Real Madrid's spending has done has made Barca an even better team than they were.I mean bar one or two games they have kept up consistently brilliant performances for 2.5 seasons now.

Annoying eh?

[vegas-voss]

When he either wins the World Cup singlehandedly, or is part of the finest team ever to win it.

 

Amid all the constant ###### over Barca, when is anyone going to pay attention to the following simple point?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/mar/28/barcelo

na-real-madrid-spain

 

 

 

Hence why I named the thread Cannon Fodder v Madrid

 

 

 

 

 

Madrid and Barcelona will earn approximately ?120m in rights each year until 2013. Last season's third-placed side, Sevilla earn around ?20m; Valencia, currently third, make under ?30m ? less than Portsmouth. Right throughout the league, the imbalance is extraordinary. Competing is impossible.

 

It's laughable.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

When he either wins the World Cup singlehandedly, or is part of the finest team ever to win it.

 

Amid all the constant ###### over Barca, when is anyone going to pay attention to the following simple point?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/mar/28/barcelona-real-madrid-spain

 

Madrid and Barcelona will earn approximately ?120m in rights each year until 2013. Last season's third-placed side, Sevilla earn around ?20m; Valencia, currently third, make under ?30m ? less than Portsmouth. Right throughout the league, the imbalance is extraordinary. Competing is impossible.

 

It's laughable.

 

Yes, that's a fair point about the level of competition. Don't really buy into the world cup thing though. Too many other reasons why that can go wrong.

 

What if he's consistently banging in 40 a season though? Not just in Spain but in Europe as well? Nearly all his goals are out of this world. In 20 seasons Maradona scored 258. Messi is already on 105 (?) in 6 seasons (according to Wiki).

 

He's on about 30 already and it's not even Christmas ffs!

[shaun.lawson]

Yes, that's a fair point about the level of competition. Don't really buy into the world cup thing though. Too many other reasons why that can go wrong.

 

What if he's consistently banging in 40 a season though? Not just in Spain but in Europe as well? Nearly all his goals are out of this world. In 20 seasons Maradona scored 258. Messi is already on 105 (?) in 6 seasons (according to Wiki).

 

He's on about 30 already and it's not even Christmas ffs!

 

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

[vegas-voss]

I would also say Maradona was a midfielder Messi is a forward.The game really has changed now I mean Barca don't even play with a striker really(I know Villa is but not in Barca's system)It's 3 or 4 forward players constantly interchanging with each other it's what makes them virtually impossible to mark.I'll always be a Maradona man because he was what I grew up with but Messi is unreal

[Gigolo-Aunt]

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

 

Maradonna apart, there was some damn fine players in that Napoli side.

 

I do take your point though, its incredible what that club achieved for a few seasons.

[bistokid]

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

 

Flawed reasoning. Financial disparity/doping means that it is virtually impossible for a smaller/less fashionable club to win a league. It's a different era and using that as a reason is unfair. Also, Napoli weren't a bad side, with the likes of Careca.

 

If Messi continues what he is doing, for the next 5/10 years, I think he surpasses Diego.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

 

Yes their circumstances are obviously completely different so it's hard to compare. What was Maradona like at Messi's age? I'm not too clued up on him, unfortunately! I think to judge them it's best to look at them purely in terms of what they are capable of doing on the pitch, not what they achieve with their teams etc.

 

No one will ever come close to Zidane for me though. <3

 

[Pistol1874]

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

They won 2 Serie A titles with him, sandwiching a second place finish is that correct? And at the end of the season they won the second title, he tested positive for cocaine during the World Cup in Italy according to Wiki.

 

It is impossible to know whether Napoli would have won those titles without him, maybe, probably not, however, irrespective of the clubs they played for, I think most neutral observers, if Messi continues in this way, will look back over the two careers and conclude that Messi was the better, more honest player.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Yes their circumstances are obviously completely different so it's hard to compare. What was Maradona like at Messi's age? I'm not too clued up on him, unfortunately! I think to judge them it's best to look at them purely in terms of what they are capable of doing on the pitch, not what they achieve with their teams etc.

 

No one will ever come close to Zidane for me though. <3

 

 

 

 

Maradonna was already a superstar way before he was Messi's age.

 

His book is a decent enough read, he is pretty honest but you come out of it thinking...

 

Its always someone else's fault.

 

He could have achieved even more if he just had screwed the nut a bit. Even though he played well in to his 30's, he was never the same player after Italia 90.

 

Mind you, I think that destructive side is maybe what people can relate to more rather than a robot.

[shaun.lawson]

Flawed reasoning. Financial disparity/doping means that it is virtually impossible for a smaller/less fashionable club to win a league. It's a different era and using that as a reason is unfair. Also, Napoli weren't a bad side, with the likes of Careca.

 

If Messi continues what he is doing, for the next 5/10 years, I think he surpasses Diego.

 

But financial doping has also led to a gulf in Spain between the Big Two and the rest which is absurd. On this board all the time, people lay into how the OF carve up more of the SPL prize money; yet the system in Scotland is massively fairer than that in Spain. And we're all supposed to just bow down and worship two clubs whose financial superiority is why they're so far clear of the rest?

 

No doubt Messi is an extraordinary footballer, comfortably the best current player. But while he's surrounded by brilliant teammates in a league which increasingly resembles a Pac-Man game, he'll always have a hard time proving himself against greats like Pele, Maradona or Di Stefano. Being a star member of the Harlem Globetrotters isn't enough I'm afraid.

[shaun.lawson]

They won 2 Serie A titles with him, sandwiching a second place finish is that correct? And at the end of the season they won the second title, he tested positive for cocaine during the World Cup in Italy according to Wiki.

 

It is impossible to know whether Napoli would have won those titles without him, maybe, probably not, however, irrespective of the clubs they played for, I think most neutral observers, if Messi continues in this way, will look back over the two careers and conclude that Messi was the better, more honest player.

 

But who were they in competition with? A ******* awesome Milan side: probably the best club side in Europe since Ajax in the early 70s. An Inter team which was, in 1988/9, absolutely incredible. And G-A's Samp were on the rise too.

 

The standard of Serie A in the late 80s was out of this world; yet Diego made Napoli the team to beat. There isn't a chance on Earth they'd have done it without him: he was the catalyst for everything they achieved.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

But financial doping has also led to a gulf in Spain between the Big Two and the rest which is absurd. On this board all the time, people lay into how the OF carve up more of the SPL prize money; yet the system in Scotland is massively fairer than that in Spain. And we're all supposed to just bow down and worship two clubs whose financial superiority is why they're so far clear of the rest?

 

No doubt Messi is an extraordinary footballer, comfortably the best current player. But while he's surrounded by brilliant teammates in a league which increasingly resembles a Pac-Man game, he'll always have a hard time proving himself against greats like Pele, Maradona or Di Stefano. Being a star member of the Harlem Globetrotters isn't enough I'm afraid.

 

You are dying to say - he'll only be the best if he does it in England, aren't you Sir.

 

On that point - I'd say that Ronaldo has shown the best can do it quite easily in both leagues and he couldn't lace Messi's boots.

[bistokid]

But financial doping has also led to a gulf in Spain between the Big Two and the rest which is absurd. On this board all the time, people lay into how the OF carve up more of the SPL prize money; yet the system in Scotland is massively fairer than that in Spain. And we're all supposed to just bow down and worship two clubs whose financial superiority is why they're so far clear of the rest?

 

No doubt Messi is an extraordinary footballer, comfortably the best current player. But while he's surrounded by brilliant teammates in a league which increasingly resembles a Pac-Man game, he'll always have a hard time proving himself against greats like Pele, Maradona or Di Stefano. Being a star member of the Harlem Globetrotters isn't enough I'm afraid.

 

Following your logic, there will never be another great. The reason being that the best players play in the best teams, and it happens earlier and earlier. The elite clubs throw astronomical sums of money at players long before they become a great. If the criteria is they have to win trophies with a middling club then it's highly unlikely to happen.

[shaun.lawson]

You are dying to say - he'll only be the best if he does it in England, aren't you Sir.

 

On that point - I'd say that Ronaldo has shown the best can do it quite easily in both leagues and he couldn't lace Messi's boots.

 

It's too easy to do it in England. Seriously. What do the following players have in common?

 

Cantona, Bergkamp, Klinsmann, Zola, Henry, Scholes, Ronaldo, Rooney, Lampard.

 

Every one thrived in the space between the opposing midfield and defence; hardly surprising given the preponderance of two banks of four and continually inept defenders in the EPL. In Spain and Italy, it's tougher: the latter especially.

[Pistol1874]

But who were they in competition with? A ******* awesome Milan side: probably the best club side in Europe since Ajax in the early 70s. An Inter team which was, in 1988/9, absolutely incredible. And G-A's Samp were on the rise too.

 

The standard of Serie A in the late 80s was out of this world; yet Diego made Napoli the team to beat. There isn't a chance on Earth they'd have done it without him: he was the catalyst for everything they achieved.

I suspect he topped off a very good side rather than dragged ten huddies to a place beyond their wildest dreams. Also, Italian football was / is corrupt, several other forces may have been at play.

 

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

It's too easy to do it in England. Seriously. What do the following players have in common?

 

Cantona, Bergkamp, Klinsmann, Zola, Henry, Scholes, Ronaldo, Rooney, Lampard.

 

Every one thrived in the space between the opposing midfield and defence; hardly surprising given the preponderance of two banks of four and continually inept defenders in the EPL. In Spain and Italy, it's a lot tougher: the latter especially.

 

So where do you suggest he goes to prove he's the best then?

[jamboinglasgow]

There's something else Maradona did though. Turn Napoli (that's Napoli, FFS) into the dominant side in the then best league in the world. Messi's part of a club used to either eminence or pre-eminence; one of the two biggest clubs on the planet.

 

I'd say Maradona was basically Superman; Messi is merely a phenomenon.

 

Surely there is something flawed with that view. It requires Messi to leave Barca to play at another team. It has also been pointed out that both Napoli and Argentina actually had decent players who are often forgotten to continue the myth that it was only Maradona who allowed them to achieve what they did.

 

I heard one journalist during the week talk about Messi at the world cup (might have been El Sid) say that people wrongly think he had a poor world cup when in actual fact if you watch some matches he was running the games for them. And that it was Maradonna who stopped Messi having a world cup like he did through his poor selection of players and not sorting out where Messi should play.

[Cade]

Messi can't be the best ever until he's played for one of the "big 4 " in Ingerlund. Them's the rules.

[Bert Le Clos]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/mar/28/barcelona-real-madrid-spain

 

Madrid and Barcelona will earn approximately ?120m in rights each year until 2013. Last season's third-placed side, Sevilla earn around ?20m; Valencia, currently third, make under ?30m ? less than Portsmouth. Right throughout the league, the imbalance is extraordinary. Competing is impossible.

 

It's laughable.

 

This is very true. However, it shouldn't take anything away from Messi or any of the other Barce players. They are an outstanding side from keeper to striker. And even more impressive because they play football the way it should be played. As well as playing with Hibs-esque flair, you seldom see Barce players (Busquets aside) diving, flying into tackles etc.

 

And while the money is an issue in that it doesn't allow other teams to buy in talent, 11 of their 1st team squad have come through the youth system.

 

Incidentally, they are going to be even richer than the rest soon, they've just signed a sponsorship deal with Qatar Foundation for ?25m a year.

[shaun.lawson]

So where do you suggest he goes to prove he's the best then?

 

We already know he's the best - of all current players, I mean. Taking on and beating all his historic competitors is another matter though. Depends on how much he wins, depends on what he achieves internationally, depends on how he does all this and whether, like Pele or Maradona (or Ali, Federer, Woods or Bolt, for that matter), he transcends sport and enters other spheres of popular culture and debate too.

[Pistol1874]

We already know he's the best - of all current players, I mean. Taking on and beating all his historic competitors is another matter though. Depends on how much he wins, depends on what he achieves internationally, depends on how he does all this and whether, like Pele or Maradona (or Ali, Federer, Woods or Bolt, for that matter), he transcends sport and enters other spheres of popular culture and debate too.

Maradona entered the British consciousness as a cheat.

 

Messi has already entered it as a genius.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

We already know he's the best - of all current players, I mean. Taking on and beating all his historic competitors is another matter though. Depends on how much he wins, depends on what he achieves internationally, depends on how he does all this and whether, like Pele or Maradona (or Ali, Federer, Woods or Bolt, for that matter), he transcends sport and enters other spheres of popular culture and debate too.

 

Why do you feel international football is so important to judging a player? Maybe in Maradona's day it was the pinnacle of football but now it is undoubtedly the Champions League which he has won twice and is Barcelonas top European scorer of all time.

 

Ironically, it was probably Maradona himself who hampered Messi's chance of doing something in the World Cup.

[shaun.lawson]

Why do you feel international football is so important to judging a player? Maybe in Maradona's day it was the pinnacle of football but now it is undoubtedly the Champions League which he has won twice and is Barcelonas top European scorer of all time.

 

Ironically, it was probably Maradona himself who hampered Messi's chance of doing something in the World Cup.

 

Because in club football, players like Messi are increasingly surrounded at their clubs by other top players. At international level, they're not. Then look at Zidane or Ronaldo (big Ronaldo)'s performances in crunch international games, and compare them with those of, say, Henry. International football frequently separates the really fantastic players from the rest: and if you asked most kids growing up, they'd far rather win the World Cup than the Champions League.

 

I agree with you about Messi at the World Cup - but if he goes through his whole career without doing the business internationally for what is, after all, a top tier nation always capable of winning tournaments, questions are bound to be asked. And given Messi is already so good that he's competing against history, we have to employ the most exacting standards: that's only fair when assessing who the greatest ever to play the world's greatest, most popular sport is or was.

[Coco]

It is always a fruitless discussion to talk about the best player ever.

 

However, I can say with certainty that Messi is my favourite non-Hearts player to watch ever. A complete joy to watch.