Neutral refs

[JamboAl]

At long last there is a possibility of something being done about neutrality in refereeing in Scotland.

 

According to a BBC report, Scottish MP Pete Wishart wants all referees in Scotland to be forced to declare which team they support. Amazingly this comes at a time when the OF, well certainly Celtic, have seen controversial decisions go against them. He could have gone further and added that they should also be geographically neutral although he did mention the EPL system.

 

It is ridiculous that recently we have seen Calum Murray handle our game and last week Dougie McDonald reffed the Hobos match while on numerous occasions weegies have been in charge of OF games. Even last Saturday we were involved in a dubious penalty issue and the ref, although English I believe, lives in Bonnyrigg which is not a million miles from the capital. It puts these lads, and they are only human, in difficult positions. While this may not enhance the competence of officials nor help them to tell the truth when asked, it would give the appointments system some semblance of integrity and credence.

 

The only problem is whether the SFA will pay a blind bit of attention to the MP.

[269miles]

SFA will go running to FIFA and Sepp 'Sticky Fingers' Blatter issues 'hands off' warning to Scottish parliament.

 

You read it here first.

[The Old Tolbooth]

The SFA won't pay a single bit of notice to this, neither will any of the usual bent crew of Chick Young, Charlie Nicholas, Andy Walker, Richard Gordon etc, because the genuinely believe that the refs in out godforsaken league are not bent, even although refs who have hung up their whistle years ago have come out and admitted that they favoured particular teams (old firm) when in charge of matches.

 

To get this problem sorted we need to get rid of the dinosaurs in charge in Glasgow, and replace them with decent, like minded, fair people who would want to see equality in our game.............................and there goes another flying pig!

[Jambof3tornado]

Bring refs up from down south! Even blue square refs would raise the standards!

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Dear all concerned football fans,

 

Here at the SFA we tested the neutrality of all our refs and officials... The results were as follows...

 

 

We found that neutrality (ph7) is in fact 'orange in colour' and so we are quite happy with the way things are.

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Some stupid Hun,

 

Office 4, the corridoors of power,

 

Hampden

[Shaggy2]

This sort of thing would be impossible in a country like Scotland, in the league at least. There are not enough refs and we'd end up having the same 3 or 4 guys reffing the OF every week. Ironically Dougie McDonald would probably be on the OF rota.

 

The only thing I would say in support of the proposal is that there should possibly be a criteria followed for semi-finals and finals, or even all one off games. We should never have had Dougie McDonald for our final against Gretna. He denied us a huge shout for a penalty (though perhaps not a stonewaller) at a vital time when Main definitely impeded Skacel in extra time. If we'd lost that shootout I don't think Dougie would have been able to walk by the Monday after! He also got the Hibs v Kilmarnock LC final and Hibs strolled to victory. I'm not saying that Dougie McDonald was entirely to blame for Hearts 2nd half showing in 2006 or the Flumps victory in 2007 but I'm entirely convinced Hibs would have got the penalty decision.

 

Going further back I recall Big Dave McPherson heading in a perfectly good goal in a semi against Airdrie and having it chalked off, then in the same game Robbo being denied when the ball was about two feet over the line. The ref that day was Jim McCluskey, who I'm pretty sure I read had been a promising schoolboy before injury curtailed his career. He'd been an "S" form signing for AIRDRIE!!! We lost the replay on penalties.

 

It's one for debate but I can't see anything happening and I don't think it should.

[Doc Rob]

Can't remember who it was, but someone said on here that when they heard who the ref was for the 2006 final, the first thing they said to their mate was that he would give Gretna a penalty and send off a Hearts player. Check, and check! Decisions that against a better team would have lost us the match.

 

On the other hand, the shootout meant that CG got to be the man who won the Cup for us. I can live with that.

[BervieJambo]

This sort of thing would be impossible in a country like Scotland, in the league at least. There are not enough refs and we'd end up having the same 3 or 4 guys reffing the OF every week. Ironically Dougie McDonald would probably be on the OF rota.

 

It's one for debate but I can't see anything happening and I don't think it should.

 

Agreed, plus you would then get the issue of players being sent off in the match prior to when a team plays the one the ref supports, therefore missing the aforementioned match through suspension. Or disadvantaging a rival team in the race for Europe or against relegation. It gets far too messy too quickly. We just need referees who are honest and professional no matter what team they support and a governing body who will look independently at any issues and deal with them fairly. Will it ever happen? I doubt it.

[Paolo]

It will make no difference. Referees could lie - after all, some have a track record of this.

 

It will also be hard to administer in that if you are saying they are unfit to referee a game involving their side, they are also unfit to referee a match that will impact their side - basically meaning they are not fit for purpose - which is the same as most refs under the current format now, despite what the SFA say.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

The SFA won't pay a single bit of notice to this, neither will any of the usual bent crew of Chick Young, Charlie Nicholas, Andy Walker, Richard Gordon etc, because the genuinely believe that the refs in out godforsaken league are not bent, even although refs who have hung up their whistle years ago have come out and admitted that they favoured particular teams (old firm) when in charge of matches.

 

To get this problem sorted we need to get rid of the dinosaurs in charge in Glasgow, and replace them with decent, like minded, fair people who would want to see equality in our game.............................and there goes another flying pig!

 

As it happens the MSP in question was on Radio Scotland yesterday evening trying to have a rational debate on the subject. No chance of that though with wee Chick Dung constantly trying to shout down the MSP, Dung's only contribution to the debate was to keep repeating "policitians should get on with sorting out the country". I hate the fact that some of my TV Licence goes to the wee bawbag!

[sandylejambo]

what on earth is wrong with full time refs? they get ?800 a game, lots of very fit and clued up ex footballers would bite your hand off for ?800 and they know the game, they just need fast tracked through the system. That would get rid of these part time fat usless bastages that we have at the moment, If they have a bad spell they get put down to the next level and the next pay level. FFS SFA wake up, the games on the brink.

[JamboAl]

This sort of thing would be impossible in a country like Scotland, in the league at least. There are not enough refs and we'd end up having the same 3 or 4 guys reffing the OF every week. Ironically Dougie McDonald would probably be on the OF rota.

 

Sorry I cannot agree with this except in the short term.

Sometimes positive discrimination is necessary to achieve some aims and this is a case in point.

We need to be encouraging and promoting young refs from areas outside Glasgow/Lanarkshire. For example does anyone know the names of the last top refs from Perth, Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee? A predominantly weegie empire has built up over the years and it's a problem that needs to be addressed asap in the interests of honesty, fairness and integrity.

[gorgie_rebel]

Independent professional refferees controlled by a body outwith the SFA is the only answer to negating bias and poor standards IMO

[Shaggy2]

Sorry I cannot agree with this except in the short term.

Sometimes positive discrimination is necessary to achieve some aims and this is a case in point.

We need to be encouraging and promoting young refs from areas outside Glasgow/Lanarkshire. For example does anyone know the names of the last top refs from Perth, Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee? A predominantly weegie empire has built up over the years and it's a problem that needs to be addressed asap in the interests of honesty, fairness and integrity.

My point was less about the geographical make up and more to do with the fact that no matter where you come from in Scotland probably at least 50% of the people interested in football will support Rangers or Celtic. As Graham Poll said on the radio last night if you support one, then you can't realistically get the other's games and that drastically reduces the numbers able to take charge of the biggest matches.

 

Imagine if you were an up and coming ref and the SFA said to you that you couldn't referee at Ibrox, Parkhead or be eligible to be chosen for a large percentage of cup finals. It's hard enough to get youngsters to take it up as it is.

 

If you use this criteria then I have no doubts that refereeing will get worse.

[DETTY29]

Did Pete Wishart admit to who he supports?

 

I know he is an SNP MSP, but if I recollect a significant number of Labour MP/MSPs were Celtic minded. Is this why he wants ref be outed?

[DETTY29]

This sort of thing would be impossible in a country like Scotland, in the league at least. There are not enough refs and we'd end up having the same 3 or 4 guys reffing the OF every week. Ironically Dougie McDonald would probably be on the OF rota.

 

The only thing I would say in support of the proposal is that there should possibly be a criteria followed for semi-finals and finals, or even all one off games. We should never have had Dougie McDonald for our final against Gretna. He denied us a huge shout for a penalty (though perhaps not a stonewaller) at a vital time when Main definitely impeded Skacel in extra time. If we'd lost that shootout I don't think Dougie would have been able to walk by the Monday after! He also got the Hibs v Kilmarnock LC final and Hibs strolled to victory. I'm not saying that Dougie McDonald was entirely to blame for Hearts 2nd half showing in 2006 or the Flumps victory in 2007 but I'm entirely convinced Hibs would have got the penalty decision.

 

Going further back I recall Big Dave McPherson heading in a perfectly good goal in a semi against Airdrie and having it chalked off, then in the same game Robbo being denied when the ball was about two feet over the line. The ref that day was Jim McCluskey, who I'm pretty sure I read had been a promising schoolboy before injury curtailed his career. He'd been an "S" form signing for AIRDRIE!!! We lost the replay on penalties.

 

It's one for debate but I can't see anything happening and I don't think it should.

Shaggy,

 

I agree with you about the logistics.

 

I'm sure I once read that a prof in the USA has been able to work out the number of 'home' decisions based on per additional 10k fans per team in a stadium. His recommendation that the pyschological side of the decision making process is as important as knowing the rules and so on and that officials should go through some form of hypnosis based training to aid the fairness all round process.

 

Andy Davies to self - I'm not a cheating, bigoted hun apologist.

[Gibbo]

Did Pete Wishart admit to who he supports?

 

I know he is an SNP MSP, but if I recollect a significant number of Labour MP/MSPs were Celtic minded. Is this why he wants ref be outed?

 

St Johnstone according to the BBC website article on this story.

[The Treasurer]

I take it the MSP involved is standing for re-election next year.

Nothing like trying to get your name in the headlines by jumping on a popular, topical bandwagon.

 

If this ridiculous idea was ever followed up then you can expect the "support" for teams like Clyde or Albion Rovers to rise dramatically.

 

I quite like the Stoke manager's idea of a "league table" where refs can be promoted or relegated on the strength of their performance over the course of a season.

[hawaii]

Easily sorted in Scotland.

 

The are 9 regions that make up the SFA. We need 6 SPL refs each weekend. Each region has to have ONE grade one referee,

 

This would at least stop the current situation where the majority of grade 1 refs come from ONE region.

 

Hugh Dallas appoints all the grade one refs, so after being hit by a coin at Parkhead and having his windows put in by Celtic fans, would it stretch the imagination for him to have Rangers supporting refs added to the list?

[JamboAl]

My point was less about the geographical make up and more to do with the fact that no matter where you come from in Scotland probably at least 50% of the people interested in football will support Rangers or Celtic. As Graham Poll said on the radio last night if you support one, then you can't realistically get the other's games and that drastically reduces the numbers able to take charge of the biggest matches.

 

Imagine if you were an up and coming ref and the SFA said to you that you couldn't referee at Ibrox, Parkhead or be eligible to be chosen for a large percentage of cup finals. It's hard enough to get youngsters to take it up as it is.

If you use this criteria then I have no doubts that refereeing will get worse.

 

There are sufficient people in Scotland who do not support either team. I have a feeling however that the OF would not feature as much under a fairer system which is underlined by the fact that Celtic have been losing points recently when they have not been receiving their normal breaks from ref decisions.

I am not saying we will ever have a totally fair system but it would not be hard to improve on the current one. Do nothing is not an option IMO.

[WavyGravy]

Firstly, this shows what a shambles the Scottish Parlaiment really is if this is all Mr Wishart has got to worry about. If I was one of his constintuents, I would be hoping he would have bigger fish to fry thatn the posibilty that refs might, MIGHT be bent. Mickey Mouse doesnt do it justice.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying that refs are going to have a historical leaning towards one team. You dont get to Grade 1 ref standard without having an interest in the game therefore the vast vast majority will have supported one team or other in their time. Does that mean they cant ref games involving that particular team? Or what if the game they are reffing has a direct influence on the team they support. Are they out of that one as well? Good luck finding enough people to take charge of any SPL game then.

 

I also dont see what good making a ref full time does. Have standards improved down south? Or do we all sit and watch Hansen and Lawrenson picking over 2 or 3 decisions every Saturdy on MOTD that the ref has monsed up? Sure they will be fitter but what else will they do with their time. Does looking at games 9 - 5 constantly make decisions easier? Cant see it. Plus most refs are lawyers and the like anyway. Are they going to give up the best part of a 100k a year for this full time? What do you think.

 

Dougie McDonald is neither a Celtic or a Dundee United fan. His decision to lie after correctly overturning his earlier decision was down to vanity and a desire to save his own arse. Ive said it before and I will say it again, the vast vast majority of refs in Scotland are not corrupt but inept. No one has once called into question the training methods of refs in Scotland. What are their own bosses doing to help these guys? Is it easier to go on the offensive everytime one of them makes an arse of it, rather than keep things inhouse and look to how standards can be improved.

 

The last month or so has seen a hell of a lot written and said about refreeing in Scotland, most of it rubbish. So it doesnt go the Old Firms way for once and suddenly they are all on the take. The standard of refereeing in this country has been rotten for a decade now, not 6 weeks. Welcome to our world Lennon. In my opinion, none of the above will help. A proper training regime and constant refreshing of standards plus making the refs themslves accountable for decisions is the only way things will improve.

[dkmmgcycbwc]

Firstly, this shows what a shambles the Scottish Parlaiment really is if this is all Mr Wishart has got to worry about. If I was one of his constintuents, I would be hoping he would have bigger fish to fry thatn the posibilty that refs might, MIGHT be bent. Mickey Mouse doesnt do it justice.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying that refs are going to have a historical leaning towards one team. You dont get to Grade 1 ref standard without having an interest in the game therefore the vast vast majority will have supported one team or other in their time. Does that mean they cant ref games involving that particular team? Or what if the game they are reffing has a direct influence on the team they support. Are they out of that one as well? Good luck finding enough people to take charge of any SPL game then.

 

I also dont see what good making a ref full time does. Have standards improved down south? Or do we all sit and watch Hansen and Lawrenson picking over 2 or 3 decisions every Saturdy on MOTD that the ref has monsed up? Sure they will be fitter but what else will they do with their time. Does looking at games 9 - 5 constantly make decisions easier? Cant see it. Plus most refs are lawyers and the like anyway. Are they going to give up the best part of a 100k a year for this full time? What do you think.

 

Dougie McDonald is neither a Celtic or a Dundee United fan. His decision to lie after correctly overturning his earlier decision was down to vanity and a desire to save his own arse. Ive said it before and I will say it again, the vast vast majority of refs in Scotland are not corrupt but inept. No one has once called into question the training methods of refs in Scotland. What are their own bosses doing to help these guys? Is it easier to go on the offensive everytime one of them makes an arse of it, rather than keep things inhouse and look to how standards can be improved.

 

The last month or so has seen a hell of a lot written and said about refreeing in Scotland, most of it rubbish. So it doesnt go the Old Firms way for once and suddenly they are all on the take. The standard of refereeing in this country has been rotten for a decade now, not 6 weeks. Welcome to our world Lennon. In my opinion, none of the above will help. A proper training regime and constant refreshing of standards plus making the refs themslves accountable for decisions is the only way things will improve.

[dkmmgcycbwc]

Posted Today, 17:41

"Firstly, this shows what a shambles the Scottish Parlaiment really is if this is all Mr Wishart has got to worry about. If I was one of his constintuents, I would be hoping he would have bigger fish to fry that the posibilty that refs might, MIGHT be bent. Mickey Mouse doesnt do it justice."

 

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid your attack on Scotland's Parliament doesn't work.

Wishart is I think you will find an SNP MP not an MSP so he works in the (Mickey Mouse ?) parliament in England. Do you really think politicians should ONLY have opinions on weighty economic matters?

 

If as someone else says he is electioneering then he plays a long game as the elections will probably be in 2014.

[WavyGravy]

Posted Today, 17:41

"Firstly, this shows what a shambles the Scottish Parlaiment really is if this is all Mr Wishart has got to worry about. If I was one of his constintuents, I would be hoping he would have bigger fish to fry that the posibilty that refs might, MIGHT be bent. Mickey Mouse doesnt do it justice."

 

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid your attack on Scotland's Parliament doesn't work.

Wishart is I think you will find an SNP MP not an MSP so he works in the (Mickey Mouse ?) parliament in England. Do you really think politicians should ONLY have opinions on weighty economic matters?

 

If as someone else says he is electioneering then he plays a long game as the elections will probably be in 2014.

 

Ach well if they only thing you pull up about the post was the lack of knowledge of British politics at the start, it cant have been all bad!!!!!

[redm]

Ach well if they only thing you pull up about the post was the lack of knowledge of British politics at the start, it cant have been all bad!!!!!

 

Okay, I'll have a bash too....

 

- Football is vastly important to the communities in which Scottish clubs reside, both for social and economic reasons

- The media haven't shut up about it in recent weeks so it's easy to assume it's a matter considered to be of popular interest and importance

- He's a football fan himself so he'll have read more about it than your average politician

- Politicians (whether Holyrood or Westminster based) have probably had an earful from their constituents about this issue. I know I find it to be of more national importance than most of the guff they spend their days debating. Go read some minutes from the sessions at Holyrood and you'll see what I mean....

- Rightly or wrongly, they're relying on football to assist in their programme to get Scotland away from the sick man of Europe tag. They need a healthy(ish) football industry and at least reasonable levels of credibility in order to do that

 

However, in saying that....I also agree that any real strides forward made by politicians will quickly be issued with a smackdown from Blatter, as per the poster above. Them's the breaks, sadly.

 

 

[WavyGravy]

Okay, I'll have a bash too....

 

- Football is vastly important to the communities in which Scottish clubs reside, both for social and economic reasons

- The media haven't shut up about it in recent weeks so it's easy to assume it's a matter considered to be of popular interest and importance

- He's a football fan himself so he'll have read more about it than your average politician

- Politicians (whether Holyrood or Westminster based) have probably had an earful from their constituents about this issue. I know I find it to be of more national importance than most of the guff they spend their days debating. Go read some minutes from the sessions at Holyrood and you'll see what I mean....

- Rightly or wrongly, they're relying on football to assist in their programme to get Scotland away from the sick man of Europe tag. They need a healthy(ish) football industry and at least reasonable levels of credibility in order to do that

 

However, in saying that....I also agree that any real strides forward made by politicians will quickly be issued with a smackdown from Blatter, as per the poster above. Them's the breaks, sadly.

 

 

Well I suppose we have to agree to disagre about football and politics. But good luck to anyone who believes Mr Wishart's actions will make 1 single iota of a difference to football in Scotland

[Johanes de Silentio]

In all honesty, I'm not sure that referees declaring which team they follow would make much difference - one well known Scottish referee from the past said that he was less inclined to favour Hearts precisely because he was a Hearts fan - he was at pains to be impartial.

 

Also, the problem with Hugh Dallas, for example, wasn't that he was a Motherwell/Celtic/Rangers fan, but that he was an arrogant tosser!

 

It's possible that we suffered at the hands of refs because of statements questioning the 'integrity of decisions', etc.

 

Referees are human, and it's possible that, during meetings and training sessions, etc, they would say "have you heard what such and such has been saying? Maybe we should show this ***** who's boss?"

 

Pure speculation, though!

 

In general, I would prefer referees to be much less visible, and more laissez faire when refereeing - they should only make a decision when they are sure about what happened - not because they feel that they are expected to make a decision.

 

If Kevin Kyle goes for a header with Frazer Wright, for example, and both are pushing a bit, let it go, rather than stopping the game.

 

I'd much rather see a ref say "To be honest, i'm not sure what happened" rather than make something up.

 

THE MAIN ISSUE IS THAT PLAYERS, COACHES, AND FANS MOAN ABOUT REFEREES WHEN THINGS AREN'T GOING THEIR WAY!

 

People need to learn to be more dignified in defeat!