Uruguay

[Radioactive Mince]

Just did a google search on Uruguay. To say I'm astonished that the population of the country is around 3.5 million is a major understatement.

 

What the feck do they put in the water over there and what could Scotland learn from them?

 

Forget Denmark/Croatia et al, Uruguay is surely the most incredible small footballing nation ever?

 

Mince

[Chad Sexington]

Just did a google search on Uruguay. To say I'm astonished that the population of the country is around 3.5 million is a major understatement.

 

What the feck do they put in the water over there and what could Scotland learn from them?

 

Forget Denmark/Croatia et al, Uruguay is surely the most incredible small footballing nation ever?

 

Mince

 

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

Fact.

[Radioactive Mince]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

Fact.

No question that they've been a dirty team at certain points over the years. I was only born in 1983 so don't remember that campaign but will bow to your maturity, Chad.

 

But they've won the World Cup twice and haven't done too shabbily on a good few other occasions. What is it they do with their youth teams?

 

I find it absolutely astounding; football is a numbers game to some extent - the larger populated 'footballing' nations have always been strong - so to see a nation with a population a fair old bit less than ours having had so much success over the years baffles me, it really does.

 

Mince

[The Old Tolbooth]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

Fact.

Absolutely!!

 

They were brutal that day and it has not been forgotten!

[Hearts Heritage]

Absolutely!!

 

They were brutal that day and it has not been forgotten!

 

But not as murder as Scotland who couldn't score in the remaining 89 minutes.

[shaun.lawson]

Just did a google search on Uruguay. To say I'm astonished that the population of the country is around 3.5 million is a major understatement.

 

What the feck do they put in the water over there and what could Scotland learn from them?

 

Forget Denmark/Croatia et al, Uruguay is surely the most incredible small footballing nation ever?

 

Mince

 

Much more than that. Uruguay are the most incredible footballing nation ever, period.

 

Uruguay (population three and a half million: that's two thirds of Scotland, and barely bigger than Wales)

 

2 World Cups

14 Copa America

2 Olympic titles

Smallest nation to win Olympic gold in any team sport

More FIFA-recognised international titles than any other nation on Earth in the Twentieth Century

2010 World Cup semi-finalists

 

Brazil (population 200 million, getting on for sixty times more than Uruguay)

 

5 World Cups

8 Copa America

0 Olympic titles

2010 World Cup quarter-finalists

 

How have Uruguay done it? Because they were the first nation ever to marry British physicality with Latin technique; the first nation in South America to pick players of African descent; the first nation on the planet to have a welfare state, accompanied with enlightened social policies; because they have two superpowers to learn from and be constantly challenged by; and because no-one would've heard of the place if it wasn't for football. That gives every Uruguayan player an incredible sense of national pride, and a profound belief in doing it for the people: translating to a style of play which was disgraceful in 1974 and 1986, but most of the time, is magnificently courageous and combative, but - contrary to their reputation - clean.

 

The history they have gives the Uruguayan player a sense of savvy and how to win which strongly resembles most Italy sides; the technique South Americans have gives them an added edge. Most Uruguayan campaigns since 1970 were dominated by a sense of decline, a birthright being lost: but no longer. In 2010, they've shown the world what the garra charrua is all about.

[Chad Sexington]

HACK. Man sent off. Dive. Roll. Dive. Foul. Dive. Roll. Hack. Hack. Dive. Roll. Stevie Nicol misses a sitter. Hack. Dive.

 

That is Scotland v Uruguay 86 in a nutshell.

 

I hate the ^^^^s

[Hearts Heritage]

How it was reported in 1930

 

[shaun.lawson]

HACK. Man sent off. Dive. Roll. Dive. Foul. Dive. Roll. Hack. Hack. Dive. Roll. Stevie Nicol misses a sitter. Hack. Dive.

 

That is Scotland v Uruguay 86 in a nutshell.

 

I hate the ^^^^s

 

Which, I'd argue, was as significant as anything else: I've still no clue how he missed that.

 

I've forgiven Maradona for '86, Chad. If I ever met him, I'd shake his hand warmly, because he's an absolute genius. Why can't Scotland forgive Uruguay?

[The Old Tolbooth]

But not as murder as Scotland who couldn't score in the remaining 89 minutes.

I still cant quite believe Nicol missing THAT sitter, I keep wondering "what if"

 

I'm pretty sure we should have had a penalty that day too if memory serves me correctly Davie, but yes, your right, Scotland failed miserably to take advantage of 10 man Uruguay who completely cheated their way through 90 minutes that day, which is why I hope the Dutch ram it right up their sphincter, and it hurts like hell.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Which, I'd argue, was as significant as anything else: I've still no clue how he missed that.

 

I've forgiven Maradona for '86, Chad. If I ever met him, I'd shake his hand warmly, because he's an absolute genius. Why can't Scotland forgive Uruguay?

Maradona was one man doing what he does best, turning it on one minute and cheating the next, Uruguay however was a whole team of players who cheated their way through that match, not just one individual.

 

Oh, and Shaun, you may have forgiven Maradona for his handball, but the rest of England most certainly haven't, and neither would we if it happened to us either, however you have a new injustice to bang on about for the next 70 years now in the shape of a URUGUAYAN linesman, how ironic

[Chad Sexington]

Which, I'd argue, was as significant as anything else: I've still no clue how he missed that.

 

I've forgiven Maradona for '86, Chad. If I ever met him, I'd shake his hand warmly, because he's an absolute genius. Why can't Scotland forgive Uruguay?

 

Did you sit through the 90 minutes Shaun?

[Hearts Heritage]

Here is how they reported the 'final round of matches' in 1950. NB It was NOT the final as some report it.

 

[Hearts Heritage]

Did you sit through the 90 minutes Shaun?

 

 

You'd be hard pushed to argue that referee Ali Bin Nasser had anything other than a shocker at Mexico City's Azteca Stadium during the infamous quarter-final between Argentina and England in 1986. It doesn't matter that the world-class goalkeeper Peter Shilton, coming off his line to intercept Steve Hodge's sliced clearance, should have got to the ball ahead of diminutive genius Diego Maradona; it's simply not cricket to be spiking the ball volleyball-style into the net. (It's volleyball, of course, but let's not go down that route.)

 

What's often forgotten, though, is the previous extent of Bin Nasser's shocker: the man had two opportunities to send off Terry Fenwick, but took neither. On eight minutes, Fenwick tried to snip Maradona in half, jetting in from the side in mid-air. He was given a yellow when by the standards of the tournament ? the Uruguayan Jos? Batista had been sent off after 56 seconds against Scotland ? a straight red would not have been a surprise. Then, just before half-time, Fenwick straight-armed Maradona to the floor, a certain straight red this time, a second yellow at "best". England would pay for this luck in spades with the Hand of God incident ? an unfair tariff, especially as Fenwick did absolutely nothing when Maradona went on to score his second goal.

 

See no 6 here

[shaun.lawson]

Maradona was one man doing what he does best, turning it on one minute and cheating the next, Uruguay however was a whole team of players who cheated their way through that match, not just one individual.

 

Oh, and Shaun, you may have forgiven Maradona for his handball, but the rest of England most certainly haven't, and neither would we if it happened to us either, however you have a new injustice to bang on about for the next 70 years now in the shape of a URUGUAYAN linesman, how ironic

 

The Uruguayan linseman? Meh. The whole of England's spent the last few days discussing the chronic failings of our team, in case you hadn't noticed! And you're wrong about Maradona and my compatriots too.

 

A few years back, Diego was stuck in traffic in London en route to an Oxford Union debate he'd been invited to speak at. It was absolutely gridlocked, so Maradona decided to use the underground. But he was in England: what if someone recognised him? He donned quite an elaborate disguise, and off he went. Once in the carriage, everything was OK for a couple of minutes; but to Diego's horror, a commuter recognised him.

 

"Can I have your autograph, please?", he asked. And once the other passengers realised what was going on, they lined up to shake his hand and get his signature. Maradona was astonished. What do you make of that, John?

 

Did you sit through the 90 minutes Shaun?

 

Unfortunately Chad, I was only able to watch it on the night from behind a crack in the living room door: I was supposed to be in bed! But I have the whole game on DVD, and have watched it all the way through (complete with Ian St John going mental at Scotland's poverty of ambition in the ITV studio) several times. My thoughts:

 

1. Uruguay were an indefensible disgrace.

 

2. After sending Batista off so early, the ref panicked, and realised he'd have an international incident on his hands if he issued any more reds.

 

3. As was the way back then in all games, barely any injury time was played.

 

4. Scotland started getting pretty cynical themselves in the end.

 

5. Uruguay's defending was - when it didn't involve GBH - very good; Scotland's attacking play was embarrassing, only days after Denmark had shown what could be done to ten-man Uruguay by thrashing them 6-1.

 

Again: Uruguay were a total disgrace. But are they supposed to pay for one match for the rest of eternity?

[Chad Sexington]

The Uruguayan linseman? Meh. The whole of England's spent the last few days discussing the chronic failings of our team, in case you hadn't noticed! And you're wrong about Maradona and my compatriots too.

 

A few years back, Diego was stuck in traffic in London en route to an Oxford Union debate he'd been invited to speak at. It was absolutely gridlocked, so Maradona decided to use the underground. But he was in England: what if someone recognised him? He donned quite an elaborate disguise, and off he went. Once in the carriage, everything was OK for a couple of minutes; but to Diego's horror, a commuter recognised him.

 

"Can I have your autograph, please?", he asked. And once the other passengers realised what was going on, they lined up to shake his hand and get his signature. Maradona was astonished. What do you make of that, John?

 

 

 

Unfortunately Chad, I was only able to watch it on the night from behind a crack in the living room door: I was supposed to be in bed! But I have the whole game on DVD, and have watched it all the way through (complete with Ian St John going mental at Scotland's poverty of ambition in the ITV studio several times. My thoughts:

 

1. Uruguay were an indefensible disgrace.

 

2. After sending Batista off so early, the ref panicked, and realised he'd have an international incident on his hands if he issued any more reds.

 

3. As was the way back then in all games, barely any injury time was played.

 

4. Scotland started getting pretty cynical themselves in the end.

 

5. Uruguay's defending was - when it didn't involve GBH - very good; Scotland's attacking play was embarrassing, only days after Denmark had shown what could be done to ten-man Uruguay by thrashing them 6-1.

 

Again: Uruguay were a total disgrace. But are they supposed to pay for one match for the rest of eternity?

 

Yes.

 

Yes they are.

[shaun.lawson]

You'd be hard pushed to argue that referee Ali Bin Nasser had anything other than a shocker at Mexico City's Azteca Stadium during the infamous quarter-final between Argentina and England in 1986. It doesn't matter that the world-class goalkeeper Peter Shilton, coming off his line to intercept Steve Hodge's sliced clearance, should have got to the ball ahead of diminutive genius Diego Maradona; it's simply not cricket to be spiking the ball volleyball-style into the net. (It's volleyball, of course, but let's not go down that route.)

 

What's often forgotten, though, is the previous extent of Bin Nasser's shocker: the man had two opportunities to send off Terry Fenwick, but took neither. On eight minutes, Fenwick tried to snip Maradona in half, jetting in from the side in mid-air. He was given a yellow when by the standards of the tournament ? the Uruguayan Jos? Batista had been sent off after 56 seconds against Scotland ? a straight red would not have been a surprise. Then, just before half-time, Fenwick straight-armed Maradona to the floor, a certain straight red this time, a second yellow at "best". England would pay for this luck in spades with the Hand of God incident ? an unfair tariff, especially as Fenwick did absolutely nothing when Maradona went on to score his second goal.

 

See no 6 here

 

Incidentally, I agree with all of this. England's approach was pretty darn cynical; and we offered nothing at all until 2-0 down. Whereupon we brought John Barnes on, showed how vulnerable Argentina were at the back, and were the merest fraction from equalising. Only had ourselves to blame for being so cagey in the first place, and leaving the fighback until too late.

 

But with all that said: every time I see that Maradona run, I think: "Why didn't someone chop him down?" I'm convinced someone could've. And Peter Reid's lungs falling out onto the pitch in forlorn pursuit always makes me chuckle; as does the fact that it was awfully, awfully close to a Butcher og in the end.

[shaun.lawson]

Yes.

 

Yes they are.

 

"In many ways, I am a small and bitter man".

[Denny Crane]

HACK. Man sent off. Dive. Roll. Dive. Foul. Dive. Roll. Hack. Hack. Dive. Roll. Stevie Nicol misses a sitter. Hack. Dive.

 

That is Scotland v Uruguay 86 in a nutshell.

 

I hate the ^^^^s

 

You also missed out Graeme Sharp having his sphincter invaded by a Uruguayan digit (if the man himself is to be believed).

 

@Shaun

 

That game kicked off at 7pm our time. Your parents actually made you go to bed while it was still light? Did you raid the cookie jar before dinnertime or something!?

[Ulysses]

 

2 World Cups

14 Copa America

2 Olympic titles

 

 

 

 

Yeah sure, but how many times did they qualify for the final first?

[shaun.lawson]

You also missed out Graeme Sharp having his sphincter invaded by a Uruguayan digit (if the man himself is to be believed).

 

@Shaun

 

That game kicked off at 7pm our time. Your parents actually made you go to bed while it was still light? Did you raid the cookie jar before dinnertime or something!?

 

My parents tried to be strict with us, and my bed time was 7.30 until I was eight or nine. I was 7 at the time of Mexico 86. However, their strictness still didn't stop me sitting on top of the upstairs landing during Argentina-England, and shouting down to ask what the score was. "0-0", yelled Dad; then five minutes later, "2-0 to Argentina. Handball".

 

Handball? How could it have counted then? The game was on in the kitchen as well, and around half an hour later, I heard from the TV blaring out in there eight words guaranteed to traumatise a seven year old kid.

 

"And England are out of the World Cup".

 

A sentence which has exactly the same impact on me all these years later.

[shaun.lawson]

Yeah sure, but how many times did they qualify for the final first?

 

If you mean (as I think you mean) that they were somehow installed in the final without having to get there first, the answer is that they had to do what every other team had to do. I of course accept that winning 13-team tournaments isn't the same as the World Cup now though.

 

To me, Uruguay's most extraordinary stat is this: in the dozens and dozens of games they've played in either the World Cup Finals or Copa America in Uruguay, they've never lost a single one.

[Ulysses]

If you mean (as I think you mean) that they were somehow installed in the final without having to get there first....

 

Nah, I was thinking of something completely different.

 

Did you know that 73% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

 

And now I'm offski for the night.

[alex plode]

Uruguay invented anti football, they are animals, cheats, and like the poster above, I hope Netherlands give them a soccer lesson on Tuesday.

[Boomstick]

MON THE OOROS!!

 

I'm really starting to love them.

[P-Dizzle]

MON THE OOROS!!

 

I'm really starting to love them.

 

[Harry Palmer]

Uruguay FTW Shaun!

[Bert Le Clos]

They do have an amazing record for such a small country.

 

Special mention should go to Slovenia too, who qualified despite a population of under 2 million.

[linkin- hearts]

All the people who applaud the dutch on their brilliant football seem to forget they also have a darker side to their nature and are not totally averse to dishing it out themselves. I, personally think the semi will be a close run thing which could go either way. In fact the dutch might be a little complacent perhaps thinking their hardest match is behind them. I think it will be a fascinating match and i'm really looking forward to it.

[Debut 4]

Not just saying this, but after getting a look at them after the opening two matches i felt they could be a darkhorse...and here they are in the semis.

 

I thought that if they kept their two centre halves fit(Godin and Lugano) with Forlan and Suarez upfront, they could go far.

 

They got through last night almost without both first pick CH`s after Lugano went off early and Godin was unfit.

 

That`s not belittling the rest of their team. The midfield works really hard and has plenty good footballers in there too.

[davemclaren]

Much more than that. Uruguay are the most incredible footballing nation ever, period.

 

Uruguay (population three and a half million: that's two thirds of Scotland, and barely bigger than Wales)

 

2 World Cups

14 Copa America

2 Olympic titles

Smallest nation to win Olympic gold in any team sport

More FIFA-recognised international titles than any other nation on Earth in the Twentieth Century

2010 World Cup semi-finalists

 

Brazil (population 200 million, getting on for sixty times more than Uruguay)

 

5 World Cups

8 Copa America

0 Olympic titles

2010 World Cup quarter-finalists

 

How have Uruguay done it? Because they were the first nation ever to marry British physicality with Latin technique; the first nation in South America to pick players of African descent; the first nation on the planet to have a welfare state, accompanied with enlightened social policies; because they have two superpowers to learn from and be constantly challenged by; and because no-one would've heard of the place if it wasn't for football. That gives every Uruguayan player an incredible sense of national pride, and a profound belief in doing it for the people: translating to a style of play which was disgraceful in 1974 and 1986, but most of the time, is magnificently courageous and combative, but - contrary to their reputation - clean.

 

The history they have gives the Uruguayan player a sense of savvy and how to win which strongly resembles most Italy sides; the technique South Americans have gives them an added edge. Most Uruguayan campaigns since 1970 were dominated by a sense of decline, a birthright being lost: but no longer. In 2010, they've shown the world what the garra charrua is all about.

 

Just shows what small independent nations can achieve.

[kitster]

I'm really happy they got through. The semi is gonna be interesting. I'll be at the bar when a goal is scored, that always happens.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Delighted they went through.

[blairdin]

Delighted they went through.

 

Ditto.

 

Forlan has been one of the best players at this tournament, the Uruguayan side as a whole has a good team ethic with a decent blend of flair and hard football that have made them one of the better sides to watch.

 

In a tournament that has been disappointing, I think they've done well throughout and deserve to be where they are. I'd love to see this bunch of players make it all the way.

[Cappuccino Kid]

A few years back, Diego was stuck in traffic in London en route to an Oxford Union debate he'd been invited to speak at. It was absolutely gridlocked, so Maradona decided to use the underground. But he was in England: what if someone recognised him? He donned quite an elaborate disguise, and off he went. Once in the carriage, everything was OK for a couple of minutes; but to Diego's horror, a commuter recognised him.

 

"Can I have your autograph, please?", he asked. And once the other passengers realised what was going on, they lined up to shake his hand and get his signature. Maradona was astonished. What do you make of that, John?Tell

 

Tell me shaun which tube goes out to Oxford? I don't want to doubt the veracity of your story but there's something not quite right in it.

[pablo]

A few years back, Diego was stuck in traffic in London en route to an Oxford Union debate he'd been invited to speak at. It was absolutely gridlocked, so Maradona decided to use the underground. But he was in England: what if someone recognised him? He donned quite an elaborate disguise, and off he went. Once in the carriage, everything was OK for a couple of minutes; but to Diego's horror, a commuter recognised him.

 

"Can I have your autograph, please?", he asked. And once the other passengers realised what was going on, they lined up to shake his hand and get his signature. Maradona was astonished. What do you make of that, John?Tell

 

Tell me shaun which tube goes out to Oxford? I don't want to doubt the veracity of your story but there's something not quite right in it.

 

 

I'm also not sure London is representative of England. London is a cosmopolitan World City full of all sorts of people, including Latin Americans.

 

I wonder how he would have got on using public transport in Reading or Peterborough ?

[Sydney from Sydney]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

 

For those too young to remember. This game (below), was huge. A real dirty mob. However watching Foran and co. this time around has been a joy. I hope they make the final.

 

THE BATTLE OF MONTEVIDEO

 

The dirtiest game ever; Montevideo madness: Bertie Auld retaliates against Maschio, while Jimmy Johnstone is about to get chopped by two Racing club defenders (below) and Bobby Murdoch (right) loses patience with 'injured' Gardenas Trying to keep the peace: Uruguayan police move in to separate the Celtic and Racing Club players.

[Alan_R]

Few of my mates got stupidly good odds, before tournament started, for Uruguay as winners.

 

Bit gutted I didnt take the chance on some of that action myself now.

[LH13]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

 

For those too young to remember. This game (below), was huge. A real dirty mob. However watching Foran and co. this time around has been a joy. I hope they make the final.

 

THE BATTLE OF MONTEVIDEO

 

The dirtiest game ever; Montevideo madness: Bertie Auld retaliates against Maschio, while Jimmy Johnstone is about to get chopped by two Racing club defenders (below) and Bobby Murdoch (right) loses patience with 'injured' Gardenas Trying to keep the peace: Uruguayan police move in to separate the Celtic and Racing Club players.

 

Racing Club are from Argentina

[The Vulture]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

 

For those too young to remember. This game (below), was huge. A real dirty mob. However watching Foran and co. this time around has been a joy. I hope they make the final.

 

THE BATTLE OF MONTEVIDEO

 

The dirtiest game ever; Montevideo madness: Bertie Auld retaliates against Maschio, while Jimmy Johnstone is about to get chopped by two Racing club defenders (below) and Bobby Murdoch (right) loses patience with 'injured' Gardenas Trying to keep the peace: Uruguayan police move in to separate the Celtic and Racing Club players.

 

Celtic getting a taste of their own medicine, fair play to them for not taking any nonsense from the evil hooped filth

[Swanyl]

They were cheating vermin in 86.

 

 

For those too young to remember. This game (below), was huge. A real dirty mob. However watching Foran and co. this time around has been a joy. I hope they make the final.

 

THE BATTLE OF MONTEVIDEO

 

The dirtiest game ever; Montevideo madness: Bertie Auld retaliates against Maschio, while Jimmy Johnstone is about to get chopped by two Racing club defenders (below) and Bobby Murdoch (right) loses patience with 'injured' Gardenas Trying to keep the peace: Uruguayan police move in to separate the Celtic and Racing Club players.

 

As has been said, Racing Club de Avellaneda are from Buenos Aires, Argentina and they won the "playoff" thrid game in Montevideo, Uruguay after having a game in Glasgow and a game in Avellaneda (in greater Buenos Aires).

 

The simple reason Uruguay are good is that they play football all the time and have a great climate to play in.

The place is a quite poor country but with very progressive and forward looking views.

Its one of the least corrupt country in South America just behind Chile (Their ex florist president has only u$s 2,000 to his name

and although its a very poor country, Eduction is VERY important to them and they have a high literacy rate (97.3%).

 

Plus my Mrs is Uruguayan so i'm supporting them

 

p.s. Montevideo is a really nice city

[shaun.lawson]

going on, they lined up to shake his hand and get his signature. Maradona was astonished. What do you make of that, John?Tell

 

Tell me shaun which tube goes out to Oxford? I don't want to doubt the veracity of your story but there's something not quite right in it.

 

Oooh, I read that story many years ago now. I think Maradona wanted to do some shopping or something beforehand. The reason I don't doubt its veracity is because there's always been a deep, deep contradiction in how the English view him. He was a cheat, sure - but also a genius, and I think we take it as a huge compliment that he scored that incredible second goal against us.

 

I'm also not sure London is representative of England. London is a cosmopolitan World City full of all sorts of people, including Latin Americans.

 

I wonder how he would have got on using public transport in Reading or Peterborough ?

 

Oh, no doubt. In some parts of England, it's like being confronted with the missing link. Still chuckling at the refusal on here of anyone to give the Ingurlish any credit though. We're all hateful hooligans: everyone knows that...

[shaun.lawson]

Not just saying this, but after getting a look at them after the opening two matches i felt they could be a darkhorse...and here they are in the semis.

 

I thought that if they kept their two centre halves fit(Godin and Lugano) with Forlan and Suarez upfront, they could go far.

 

They got through last night almost without both first pick CH`s after Lugano went off early and Godin was unfit.

 

That`s not belittling the rest of their team. The midfield works really hard and has plenty good footballers in there too.

 

Uruguay did incredibly well without both first choice centre halves. Most countries would be screwed in such a scenario. I really don't see how they cope without Suarez, Fucile and maybe Godin against Holland though.

 

Also D4: Diego Perez, Uruguay's defensive midfielder. He's not the best player in the whole tournament, but he's certainly my favourite one. I think he's awesome. And he's so combative that to have only picked up one booking in five games is, given how this tournament's been refereed, amazing. His tackling is almost always perfect.

[Debut 4]

Uruguay did incredibly well without both first choice centre halves. Most countries would be screwed in such a scenario. I really don't see how they cope without Suarez, Fucile and maybe Godin against Holland though.

 

Also D4: Diego Perez, Uruguay's defensive midfielder. He's not the best player in the whole tournament, but he's certainly my favourite one. I think he's awesome. And he's so combative that to have only picked up one booking in five games is, given how this tournament's been refereed, amazing. His tackling is almost always perfect.

Perez and Arrevalo are a a great double act. Fine competitors who tackle well and are clever on the ball when required. They complement the more influential ball players in the side superbly. But as you say, the semi could be very hard given the top players that could be missing. They maybe don`t have the depth to cope.