Trams Why did they not get Bendy Busses instead of this Shambles.

[Munch]

Total joke will they ever finish this shambolic project, at this rate it must be years away from completion

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Tramlines-in-a-whole-lot.6344825.jp

[Miller Jambo 60]

Total joke will they ever finish this shambolic project, at this rate it must be years away from completion

http://edinburghnews...-lot.6344825.jp

 

 

Wot a waste o money.

[Ignoranus]

Wot a waste o money.

 

 

Agreed. I'd call Sony to complain straight away!!

[269miles]

A similar dispute in Vancouver saw Bilfinger kicked off a project to build two underground tunnels.

The row set back that project and is said to have added $200m on to the bill.

 

Good to see the city fathers picked a company with a 'track record'.

 

I'll get my coat.

[Boris]

How do you know that there wouldn't have been problems with bendy buses too?

 

I blame James Craig for not having the vision initially to make the streets of the New Town a mile wide so all the traffic could fit on the roads. Amateur...

[jamb0_1874]

Why would Edinburgh need bendy buses?

[The Mighty Thor]

Looking at the bright side, at least they will have a big shed to keep the trams in for the next 3 or 4 years until it's finished and they actually start running (if it ever gets finished).

[rossthejambo]

What is it with this country? All we ever do is moan about stupid things.

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

Sure it's getting delayed but how many projects run on time? I'd argue not very many if any at all.

 

I'm almost 100% certain most people that moan about it get their "info" from taxi drivers, you know the one's that say that no-one in Edinburgh wants the trams?

 

 

[Boomstick]

What is it with this country? All we ever do is moan about stupid things.

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

Sure it's getting delayed but how many projects run on time? I'd argue not very many if any at all.

 

I'm almost 100% certain most people that moan about it get their "info" from taxi drivers, you know the one's that say that no-one in Edinburgh wants the trams?

 

I don't want the trams.

 

I have a friend who owns a shop on Leith Walk. He nearly had to shut. Other businesses around him did shut. How is that a good idea? How is that a stupid thing to moan about?

[Miller Jambo 60]

Agreed. I'd call Sony to complain straight away!!

 

 

Just have , and been assured they have nothing to do wi it .

[rossthejambo]

I don't want the trams.

 

I have a friend who owns a shop on Leith Walk. He nearly had to shut. Other businesses around him did shut. How is that a good idea? How is that a stupid thing to moan about?

 

Under the recession those shops may have had to shut anyway. I realise its hypothetical but to lay the blame totally on the trams is a bit harsh IMO.

 

The council should have set up funds to compensate local businesses due to the effects of the tram works I agree.

 

Obviously that isn't a stupid thing to moan about but the vast majority of people complaining about it aren't moaning about it for those reasons..if you get what I'm saying.

[The Mighty Thor]

Under the recession those shops may have had to shut anyway. I realise its hypothetical but to lay the blame totally on the trams is a bit harsh IMO.

 

The council should have set up funds to compensate local businesses due to the effects of the tram works I agree.

 

Obviously that isn't a stupid thing to moan about but the vast majority of people complaining about it aren't moaning about it for those reasons..if you get what I'm saying.

 

Leith has been a virtual no go area for the last 3 years and it's still nowhere near finished, despite the local businesses being told there would be 12-18 months of disruption.

 

The vast majority of people have now tumbled to the fact that the tram project was barely viable as a multi line transport solution, the current single line '22 bus route' version is quite possibly the most negligent capital expenditure project ever undertaken in Scotland.

[I P Knightley]

What is it with this country? All we ever do is moan about stupid things.

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

Sure it's getting delayed but how many projects run on time? I'd argue not very many if any at all.

I'm almost 100% certain most people that moan about it get their "info" from taxi drivers, you know the one's that say that no-one in Edinburgh wants the trams?

 

 

 

The sheer predictability of this has to be one of the factors in getting people's backs up.

 

 

They say "we'll deliver in 2010." (Don't remember the original dates)

 

Folk say, "Aye right; we'll believe that when we see it."

 

They say, "Don't be so sceptical. We've learnt the error of other people's ways and are in a strong position to ensure delivery on time and within budget."

 

Folk say, "Aye right."

 

 

And sure as chips is chips, it comes in late and over budget.

[Boris]

The sheer predictability of this has to be one of the factors in getting people's backs up.

 

 

They say "we'll deliver in 2010." (Don't remember the original dates)

 

Folk say, "Aye right; we'll believe that when we see it."

 

They say, "Don't be so sceptical. We've learnt the error of other people's ways and are in a strong position to ensure delivery on time and within budget."

 

Folk say, "Aye right."

 

 

And sure as chips is chips, it comes in late and over budget.

 

 

As it is so predictable, why are people annoyed? Given that this is what was expected.

[Wotta Lad]

Why would Edinburgh need bendy buses?

Because they're super badass, that's why.

[jamb0_1874]

As it is so predictable, why are people annoyed? Given that this is what was expected.

 

I'd say its because once again Edinburgh residents have been forced to sit and watch massive amounts of tax payers money being wasted by people going on massive ego trips rather spending it on what the residents want and need and all the while knowing that they are going to have to pay for the whole sorry mess by increased council tax, or whatever the new governments version will be, because the local authority is just about bankrupt.

[dodethejambo]

I dont want them.

 

I passed the tram that sits in Princes St today and I take it that we will be having the horrible looking overhead electric cables powering them. So what happens when a large vehicle or transporter wants to go over the trams route and cant get passed the cables does it take a detour via Kirkliston when it going from East lothian to Granton

 

From where i stay (south Edinburgh) and i think that most of the residents of Edinburgh we would have to get a bus to get uptown to use the trams and once we're uptown then theres plenty of choices of buses to take you the same route as the trams.

 

What happens if a tram breaks down going up Leith Walk, how do the following trams get past??

 

[Hound]

Is it going to be cheaper to use a tram than a bus?

 

 

It was ?1.10-20 last time I used a LRT bus.If it is 50p for a adult to use a tram then I would use them when I am in edinburgh.

[Pistol1874]

More tax free brown envelopes for those involved in the tender process...

[Tommy Wiseau]

Under the recession those shops may have had to shut anyway. I realise its hypothetical but to lay the blame totally on the trams is a bit harsh IMO.

The council should have set up funds to compensate local businesses due to the effects of the tram works I agree.

 

Obviously that isn't a stupid thing to moan about but the vast majority of people complaining about it aren't moaning about it for those reasons..if you get what I'm saying.

 

 

I don't think it is, to be honest.

 

My mate was one of the guys who did have to shut his business down, and it was a DIRECT result of the tramworks restricting traffic from parking near his showroom on Leith Walk. The business was doing well, the tramworks started, the business suffered badly and the premises had to close. You're right that some of the businesses may have had to close anyway, but I think it's crazy to look at a situation where businesses are doing fine, then business completely dies a death the moment the tramworks begin and say "well, there was a recession, they might have had to close anyway". The council did give compensation, but it was so inadequate that it didn't come close to covering any of the lost trade (I think it was something silly like ?1500, but not sure on that).

 

Can you explain why you think it's such a good idea, as saying "FACT" may be persuasive but I'd like a little more to go on? Do you think it's invalid to complain about the trams if you simply think that spending hundreds of millions of public money (likely to be around ?600m or more when all's said and done on the initial line) on a single tram line is excessive and represents poor value for money in a city that is struggling to run its public services?

[SE16 3LN]

Boris is trying to sell the bendy buses in London. Why not give him a ring? They're crap, dangerous and clog up the road but you don't have to pay becaus the driver cant see people getting on at the rear doors.

[Coco]

The tramline was an end in itself. It was not designed to alleviate congestion, facilitate development or improve public transport. It was an attempt to spend money on a tram line - something greatly favoured by tram spotters, but also by consultants and quangocrats at TIE as well as the builders of the line. The idiot councillors were only concerned about the photo opportunity to come and had no idea of how much they were being taken in by those who were salivating at the thought of the dripping roast to come. Everything else has been the result of that initial decision to create a tram line - before any routes etc were considered.

 

The business case for the line suggests that congestion would be reduced by 1% near the line - and that does not include the impact of cars shifting to other routes and increasing congestion on those. [The 1% congestion reduction case did not include the impact of factors such as all traffic being halted on Princes Street or Leith Walk when the tram was taking on or dropping off passengers for example.] Clearly that is immaterial especially given the continuing improvements in engine efficiency for buses and cars with regard to pollution. The business case also suggests that there will be ongoing losses in the tens of millions of pounds each year if the tram operates. Clearly if it only goes from near the airport to Haymarket it will be many millions more in losses.

 

The reason that they are bashing on with Gogar tramsheds is that they have nowhere else to put the trams for the several years prior to the part line opening. By the way there are many trams more than needed as TIE decided to buy the trams for the other tram lines which will never be built.

 

Edinburgh's Council Tax brings in just over ?200m in total. So far the funding gap for construction of the line is at least ?40m, and probably many times that if they were to actually build the rest of the line. I think that the project should be scrapped now.

[H2]

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

 

Apart from the fact that your fact is an opinion, Trams can be a very good idea, on the follwoing basis:

There is a long term strategy for a Tram System. (Edinburgh has thought of two lines, one already cut out to save money so they can say they were delivered on cost).

The city has street structure to accommodate a Tram System. - Edinburgh has significant areas where streets are to narrow, would mean some major demolitions.

Tram Systems in other cities work well, as was pontificated in the justification for Edinburgh, it's a tragedy that in Edinburgh that people were conned by the proposal, I wonder what the business case says..... what business case?

The Tram line in Edinburgh is a waste of public money serving a minority of people, which will be subisdised by our, what was an efficient and effective bus system. The majority of people in Edinburgh do not want A Tramline. FACT .

[Shaggy2]

What is it with this country? All we ever do is moan about stupid things.

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

Sure it's getting delayed but how many projects run on time? I'd argue not very many if any at all.

 

I'm almost 100% certain most people that moan about it get their "info" from taxi drivers, you know the one's that say that no-one in Edinburgh wants the trams?

Take your heid oot yer arse! A fellow poster has a mate who has been DIRECTLY affected by the scams and I'm almost 100% certain that, as a taxi driver I deal with a far larger "cross section" of the community than you (may be wrong, Burger King does have a varied clientele) and I can 100% guarantee that almost (tho not quite) 100% of folk do not want them.

 

The tramline was an end in itself. It was not designed to alleviate congestion, facilitate development or improve public transport. It was an attempt to spend money on a tram line - something greatly favoured by tram spotters, but also by consultants and quangocrats at TIE as well as the builders of the line. The idiot councillors were only concerned about the photo opportunity to come and had no idea of how much they were being taken in by those who were salivating at the thought of the dripping roast to come. Everything else has been the result of that initial decision to create a tram line - before any routes etc were considered.

 

The business case for the line suggests that congestion would be reduced by 1% near the line - and that does not include the impact of cars shifting to other routes and increasing congestion on those. [The 1% congestion reduction case did not include the impact of factors such as all traffic being halted on Princes Street or Leith Walk when the tram was taking on or dropping off passengers for example.] Clearly that is immaterial especially given the continuing improvements in engine efficiency for buses and cars with regard to pollution. The business case also suggests that there will be ongoing losses in the tens of millions of pounds each year if the tram operates. Clearly if it only goes from near the airport to Haymarket it will be many millions more in losses.

 

The reason that they are bashing on with Gogar tramsheds is that they have nowhere else to put the trams for the several years prior to the part line opening. By the way there are many trams more than needed as TIE decided to buy the trams for the other tram lines which will never be built.

 

Edinburgh's Council Tax brings in just over ?200m in total. So far the funding gap for construction of the line is at least ?40m, and probably many times that if they were to actually build the rest of the line. I think that the project should be scrapped now.

Good post.

[maltese jambo]

Apart from the fact that your fact is an opinion, Trams can be a very good idea, on the follwoing basis:

There is a long term strategy for a Tram System. (Edinburgh has thought of two lines, one already cut out to save money so they can say they were delivered on cost).

The city has street structure to accommodate a Tram System. - Edinburgh has significant areas where streets are to narrow, would mean some major demolitions.

Tram Systems in other cities work well, as was pontificated in the justification for Edinburgh, it's a tragedy that in Edinburgh that people were conned by the proposal, I wonder what the business case says..... what business case?

The Tram line in Edinburgh is a waste of public money serving a minority of people, which will be subisdised by our, what was an efficient and effective bus system. The majority of people in Edinburgh do not want A Tramline. FACT .

 

The suburban lines should have been re-opened.; infrastructure already built, covers significantly more of the city, enviromentally friendly

[maroongoals]

I dont want the trams, and if we are to have a tram system it should have ran to the airport.

[Beverley]

The suburban lines should have been re-opened.; infrastructure already built, covers significantly more of the city, enviromentally friendly

 

this is what i have been saying since the who sham was put to us.

 

it would have been far cheaper and far more beneficial. i live in leith and work at the gyle so i've watched this, and suffered the delays since it began and other than my dad, and my brother who swear says it to wind me up, i've yet to find a single person who wanted this!

 

its a joke that the labour run EDC ever went ahead with this!!!

[IronJambo]

bendy buses don't work in london and they wouldn't work in edinburgh. the roads aren't big enough and all they do is block traffic lights/pedestrian crossings.

[conn artist]

bendy buses don't work in london and they wouldn't work in edinburgh. the roads aren't big enough and all they do is block traffic lights/pedestrian crossings.

 

and kill cyclists.

[Boris]

I dont want the trams, and if we are to have a tram system it should have ran to the airport.

 

I think it does go to the airport. It's listed as a stop on the advertising anyway.

[maroongoals]

I think it does go to the airport. It's listed as a stop on the advertising anyway.

 

I thought they had delayed that section, but I could be wrong.

[Boris]

I thought they had delayed that section, but I could be wrong.

 

The whole gig is pretty much delayed!

[Munch]

and kill cyclists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And are a lot cheaper than trams by a country mile

[Cabbie754]

Agree, the vast majority of Edinburgh residents don't want the trams but it was forced on us first by Labour when they were in power in the city and then by the Lib Dems and Tories. A referendum would have been the best way to settle the argument as suggested by the SNP in the council but this was rejected. This whole fiasco was just a way for Labour, Lib Dems, Tories and the Greens to get one over the SNP in Holyrood as the SNP tried to stop the project going ahead. Simple but true.

 

The SNP predicted that the project would be over budget, over the time and would mean even more years of disruption to the city. What a farce. It's good to know the SNP were right to try to stop this mess from happening and all because the other parties wanted to defeat the SNP minority Government, silly politics at the expense of us

[southside1874]

Hardly any of the work done to date is for the trams. Its mostly been upgrading the underground services that had to be done trams or no trams.

[Coco]

Hardly any of the work done to date is for the trams. Its mostly been upgrading the underground services that had to be done trams or no trams.

 

The work was unnecessary and was only done for the trams.

 

The services did not need to be moved and were only moved so that when in future they did need to be done the services were not under the tram line. Instead if the tram line ever reaches the likes of Leith Walk - the single roadway each way for buses, cars, vans, lorries, bikes etc will be cut by traffic lights making a lot of people wait for a long time. Meanwhile the empty tram train would shriek and squeal its way up the road.

[david mcgee]

I predicted all of this and more on kickback donkeys ago in a thread " can Edinburgh afford the trams", ( how do you post link?)

 

The trams will run all the way to the airport, and will replace the currently very successfull and profitable airport bus which is run by lothian buses, who have now been handed the running of Edinburghs tram system by our esteemed council.

Quite how the employees of Lothian buses feel about cutting their own throats is anyones guess but their Chief Executive rapped it in recently so its safe to assume he wasnt overly happy about it.

[rossthejambo]

I don't think it is, to be honest.

 

My mate was one of the guys who did have to shut his business down, and it was a DIRECT result of the tramworks restricting traffic from parking near his showroom on Leith Walk. The business was doing well, the tramworks started, the business suffered badly and the premises had to close. You're right that some of the businesses may have had to close anyway, but I think it's crazy to look at a situation where businesses are doing fine, then business completely dies a death the moment the tramworks begin and say "well, there was a recession, they might have had to close anyway". The council did give compensation, but it was so inadequate that it didn't come close to covering any of the lost trade (I think it was something silly like ?1500, but not sure on that).

 

Can you explain why you think it's such a good idea, as saying "FACT" may be persuasive but I'd like a little more to go on? Do you think it's invalid to complain about the trams if you simply think that spending hundreds of millions of public money (likely to be around ?600m or more when all's said and done on the initial line) on a single tram line is excessive and represents poor value for money in a city that is struggling to run its public services?

 

To be fair most of my original post was tongue in cheek.

 

I do think it's a good idea mainly because it is an environmentally friendly mode of transport and will be a lot speedier than a bus (when it eventually gets up and running). My point still stands about people moaning because its not going to be finished on time. Why moan when it was a complete nap that it was never going to be finished on time and on budget?

 

The points about businesses closing are fair and the council should have done a hell of a lot more to stop that from happening.

 

Apologies to others I may have offended by my mischievous first post

[Sterling Archer]

I think the most eco-friendly, fun way to travel around edinburgh would be with a series of flying foxes.

 

[The Treasurer]

To be fair most of my original post was tongue in cheek.

 

I do think it's a good idea mainly because it is an environmentally friendly mode of transport and will be a lot speedier than a bus (when it eventually gets up and running). My point still stands about people moaning because its not going to be finished on time. Why moan when it was a complete nap that it was never going to be finished on time and on budget?

 

The points about businesses closing are fair and the council should have done a hell of a lot more to stop that from happening.

 

Apologies to others I may have offended by my mischievous first post

 

Modern buses are equally as "green" as any tram when you take into account the generation process for the electricity required to run the system.

People moan mainly because hundreds of millions of taxpayers money has been spent on something that will only serve to replace a few of the city's bus services.

A bus service that has on a regular basis been voted the best in Britain.

[Guest juvehearts]

What is it with this country? All we ever do is moan about stupid things.

 

The trams are a good idea. FACT.

 

Sure it's getting delayed but how many projects run on time? I'd argue not very many if any at all.

 

I'm almost 100% certain most people that moan about it get their "info" from taxi drivers, you know the one's that say that no-one in Edinburgh wants the trams?

 

 

well im fae embra an ah dinnae want the trams.

 

we got rid of them years ago, no-one from here wants to see them again.

 

what we want is our train line back the outer circle line.

 

juve

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The Springfield Monorail was a better idea than trams in Edinburgh.

[Guest juvehearts]

The Springfield Monorail was a better idea than trams in Edinburgh.

 

 

monorail, monorail, monorail

 

i want matlock!!!!!!

 

juve

[southside1874]

The work was unnecessary and was only done for the trams.

 

The services did not need to be moved and were only moved so that when in future they did need to be done the services were not under the tram line. Instead if the tram line ever reaches the likes of Leith Walk - the single roadway each way for buses, cars, vans, lorries, bikes etc will be cut by traffic lights making a lot of people wait for a long time. Meanwhile the empty tram train would shriek and squeal its way up the road.

 

Then why are they replacing services on routes the trams don't go near? Edinburgh had to upgrade its services because they are rotten and victorian. The city could not grow with the existing services

 

The cost of upgrading the services are lumped in with the trams and the grants from various sources for the trams are paying for the services upgrade.

[CavySlaveJambo]

I'm another for reopening the suburban lines and also extending out to the airport.

At least that way you don't need to get into edinburgh on the way to the airport and change onto a different service.

 

Southside1874, if I am remembering rightly in Amsterdam, Buses, Trams and Cycles as well as cars share the road with the tramway on it.

[BigMDV]

Lothian Buses did trial a bendy bus.

It turned out unsuitable for Edinburghs roads, and bus routes.

Some of the busiest bus routes could not accomodate a bendy bus

due to some tight turns. Example, it had to steal the middle

lane on North bridge before turning into Princes st, blocking

traffic wanting to go right for Leith st.

 

If you use the bus, think about your own route, I bet you will

find one part where you say "ffs, a bendy bus would NEVER get round there".

 

For a fraction of what the trams cost, the council could have

employed wardens to properly police the greenways during morning

and evening rush hours to help the buses run on time.