"The Pope, the Prophet, and the religious support for evil"

[jambovambo]

I think this warrants a separate thread from the one about the Catholic church, but some may see it otherwise.

 

Once again Johann Hari hits the nail on the head ... :

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-pope-the-prophet-and-the-religious-support-for-evil-1923656.html

 

"What can make tens of millions of people ? who are in their daily lives peaceful and compassionate and caring ? suddenly want to physically dismember a man for drawing a cartoon, or make excuses for an international criminal conspiracy to protect child-rapists? Not reason. Not evidence. No. But it can happen when people choose their polar opposite ? religion. In the past week we have seen two examples of how people can begin to behave in bizarre ways when they decide it is a good thing to abandon any commitment to fact and instead act on faith. It has led some to regard people accused of the attempted murders of the Mohamed cartoonists as victims, and to demand "respect" for the Pope, when he should be in a police station being quizzed about his role in covering up and thereby enabling the rape of children.

 

 

In 2005, 12 men in a small secular European democracy decided to draw a quasi-mythical figure who has been dead for 1400 years. They were trying to make a point. They knew that in many Muslim cultures, it is considered offensive to draw Mohamed. But they have a culture too ? a European culture that believes it is important to be allowed to mock and tease and ridicule religion. It is because Europeans have been doing this for centuries now that we can no longer be tyrannised into feeling bad about perfectly natural impulses, like masturbation, or pre-marital sex, or homosexuality. When priests offer those old arguments, we now laugh in their faces ? a great liberating moment. It will be a shining day for Muslims when they can do the same.

 

Some of the cartoons were witty. Some were stupid. One seemed to suggest Muslims are inherently violent ? an obnoxious and false idea. If you disagree with the drawings, you should write a letter, or draw a better cartoon, this time mocking the cartoonists. But some people did not react this way. Instead, Islamist plots to hunt the artists down and slaughter them began. Earlier this year, a man with an axe smashed into one of their houses, and very nearly killed the cartoonist in front of his small grand-daughter.

 

This week, another plot to murder them seems to have been exposed, this time allegedly spanning Ireland and the United States, and many people who consider themselves humanitarians or liberals have rushed forward to offer condemnation ? of the cartoonists. One otherwise liberal newspaper ran an article saying that since the cartoonists had engaged in an "aggressive act" and shown "prejudice... against religion per se", so it stated menacingly that no doubt "someone else is out there waiting for an opportunity to strike again".

 

Let's state some principles that ? if religion wasn't involved ? would be so obvious it would seem ludicrous to have to say them out loud. Drawing a cartoon is not an act of aggression. Trying to kill somebody with an axe is. There is no moral equivalence between peacefully expressing your disagreement with an idea ? any idea ? and trying to kill somebody for it. Yet we have to say this because we have allowed religious people to claim their ideas belong to a different, exalted category, and it is abusive or violent merely to verbally question them. Nobody says I should "respect" conservatism or communism and keep my opposition to them to myself ? but that's exactly what is routinely said about Islam or Christianity or Buddhism. What's the difference?

 

This enforced "respect" is a creeping vine. It soon extends beyond religious ideas to religious institutions ? even when they commit the worst crimes imaginable. It is now an indisputable fact that the Catholic Church systematically covered up the rape of children across the globe, and knowingly, consciously put paedophiles in charge of more kids. Joseph Ratzinger ? who claims to be "infallible" ? was at the heart of this policy for decades.

 

Here's what we are sure of. By 1962, it was becoming clear to the Vatican that a significant number of its priests were raping children. Rather than root it out, they issued a secret order called "Crimen Sollicitationis"' ordering bishops to swear the victims to secrecy and move the offending priest on to another parish. This of course meant they raped more children there, and on and on, in parish after parish. Yes, these were different times, but the Vatican knew then that what it was doing was terribly wrong: that's why it was done in the utmost secrecy.

 

It has emerged this week that when Ratzinger was Archbishop of Munich in the 1980s, one of his paedophile priests was "reassigned" in this way. He claims he didn't know. Yet a few years later he was put in charge of the Vatican's response to this kind of abuse and demanded every case had to be referred directly to him for 20 years. What happened on his watch, with every case going to his desk? Precisely this pattern, again and again. The BBC's Panorama studied one of many such cases. Father Tarcisio Spricigo was first accused of child abuse in 1991, in Brazil. He was moved by the Vatican four times, wrecking the lives of children at every stop. He was only caught in 2005 by the police, before he could be moved on once more. He had written in his diary about the kind of victims he sought: "Age: 7, 8, 9, 10. Social condition: Poor. Family condition: preferably a son without a father. How to attract them: guitar lessons, choir, altar boy." It happened all over the world, wherever the Catholic Church had outposts.

 

Far from changing this paedophile-protecting model, Ratzinger reinforced it. In 2001 he issued a strict secret order demanding that charges of child-rape should be investigated by the Church "in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret." Since it was leaked, Ratzinger claims ? bizarrely ? that these requirements didn't prevent bishops from approaching the police. Even many people employed by the Vatican at the time say this is wrong. Father Tom Doyle, who was a Vatican lawyer working on these cases, says it "is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes... Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims. The only thing it does say is they can impose fear on the victims, and punish [them], for disclosing what happened." Doyle was soon fired.

 

Imagine if this happened at The Independent. Imagine I discovered there was a paedophile ring running our cr?che, and the Editor issued a stern order that it should be investigated internally with "the strictest secrecy". Imagine he merely shuffled the paedophiles to work in another cr?che at another newspaper, and I agreed, and made the kids sign a pledge of secrecy. We would both ? rightly ? go to prison. Yet because the word "religion" is whispered, the rules change. Suddenly, otherwise good people who wouldn't dream of covering up a paedophile ring in their workplace think it would be an insult to them to follow one wherever it leads in their Church. They would find this behaviour unthinkable without the irrational barrier of faith standing between them and reality.

 

Yes, I understand some people feel sad when they see a figure they were taught as a child to revere ? whether Prophet or Pope ? being subjected to rational examination, or mockery, or criminal investigation. But everyone has ideas they hold precious. Only you, the religious, demand to be protected from debate or scrutiny that might discomfort you. The fact you believe an invisible supernatural being approves of ? or even commands ? your behaviour doesn't mean it deserves more respect, or sensitive handling. It means it deserves less. If you base your behaviour on such a preposterous fantasy, you should expect to be checked by criticism and mockery. You need it.

 

If you can't bear to hear your religious figures criticised ? if you think Ratzinger is somehow above the law, or Mohamed should be defended with an axe ? a sane society should have only one sentence for you. Tell it to the judge."

 

(lights touchpaper and retires a safe distance ...)

[2NaFish]

i cant see how anyone could have issue with any of that.

[Boris]

Good article, and a seperate debate to the other one on the go.

 

I wonder if someone could issue a writ against the Pope when he comes to Britain and get him arrested for his involvement in the paedophile cover up? Not likely, but I wonder...

[jambovambo]

Exactly.

[The People's Chimp]

Absolutely spot on.

[jambojackbilly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8575734.stm

 

This will put and end to all this NONSense

[stevie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8575734.stm

 

This will put and end to all this NONSense

 

Aye,they must have a huge carpet,for all the dirt swept under it.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

Thats a really good article and it beggars belief that despite so many allegations of child abuse within the church that there have been so few court cases or criminal charges brought. Compassion in religion - aye right.

[mac]

Excellent article.

[grumpyjambo]

Well said that man!!!!

[wibble]

I have always wanted to know why Governments haven't ordered independent inquiries into the Roman Catholic Church and it's pedophile tendencies. If this was any other organisation, or a corporation, there would be police all over them.

 

This isn't something that happened decades ago, there are still pedophile priests out there and how many have the church handed in to the cops this year??? It makes you realise how utterly corrupt the entire system is when they are still not being brought to task.

 

On another note, I would feel like a pedophile supporter if I allowed myself to send my kids to a catholic school or to any other organisation that has links to that diseased church.

[ArmiyaRomanova]

Good article, and a seperate debate to the other one on the go.

 

I wonder if someone could issue a writ against the Pope when he comes to Britain and get him arrested for his involvement in the paedophile cover up? Not likely, but I wonder...

 

 

Agreed, he should be taken into custody for questioning immediately on his arrival in the UK.

[heartgarfunkel]

I hope Jim Devine reads that article.

[Chad Sexington]

Brilliant article.

 

I have zero respect for any religion.

 

The world will be a better place when everyone feels the same way.

[BigC]

Here's some more good articles:

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/

 

On sacking/arresting the pope (you can't):

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2247262?obref=obinsite

[ArmiyaRomanova]

Here's some more good articles:

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/

 

On sacking/arresting the pope (you can't):

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2247262?obref=obinsite

 

 

Can't sack the Pope, but could perhaps arrest him (even as a Head of State) for Crimes Against Humanity, being ("particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority.") Would love to see the UK government attempt this, but they're spineless.

[Ulysses]

On another note, I would feel like a pedophile supporter if I allowed myself to send my kids to a catholic school or to any other organisation that has links to that diseased church.

 

In the middle of a rational debate, that was a silly and hysterical statement.

 

On a tangentially related issue, just as the Irish "industrial schools" were run by Catholic religious orders, the German "industrial schools" were run by Lutherans. Last year the German Lutheran church apologised for the abuse of children in the schools that it ran. The apology was issued by Bishop Margot Kassmann, who until recently was head Germany's evangelical Protestant churches.

 

And the problem isn't confined to people of religious faith, either. Germany's elite Odenwald boarding school, renowned for its progressive, liberal and secular education philosophy, has apologised for the abuse of more than 100 children in a 15-year period from 1970 to 1985.

 

These abuse scandals went almost entirely unreported in English-language media. The German government wants to investigate the Catholic church because of this issue. The German Catholic church is resisting this - and is supported by the leadership of the Social Democrats, who traditionally have not been friends of conservatives or Catholics. And I think they are right. Why should one group be investigated because of child abuse while others are left alone? Are we afraid of what the results of a wide-ranging investigation would tell us about the society we live in?

[Chris Benoit]

In the middle of a rational debate, that was a silly and hysterical statement.

 

On a tangentially related issue, just as the Irish "industrial schools" were run by Catholic religious orders, the German "industrial schools" were run by Lutherans. Last year the German Lutheran church apologised for the abuse of children in the schools that it ran. The apology was issued by Bishop Margot Kassmann, who until recently was head Germany's evangelical Protestant churches.

 

And the problem isn't confined to people of religious faith, either. Germany's elite Odenwald boarding school, renowned for its progressive, liberal and secular education philosophy, has apologised for the abuse of more than 100 children in a 15-year period from 1970 to 1985.

 

These abuse scandals went almost entirely unreported in English-language media. The German government wants to investigate the Catholic church because of this issue. The German Catholic church is resisting this - and is supported by the leadership of the Social Democrats, who traditionally have not been friends of conservatives or Catholics. And I think they are right. Why should one group be investigated because of child abuse while others are left alone? Are we afraid of what the results of a wide-ranging investigation would tell us about the society we live in?

 

Top post Uly, have really enjoyed the two threads this week although i can't see this kind of intelligent debate happening any time soon in the Terrace

[shaun.lawson]

On Friday night, Stephen Nolan's Five Live programme featured the harrowing testimony of someone who, when 17, was abused by a priest, attempted suicide as a result, raped by him soon afterwards, then put under monstrous pressure not to tell anyone. Because she waited so long as a consequence of this intimidation, no prosecution was brought against him. It's quite graphic, very shocking, but I urge people to listen to what she said. Just as shocking was the pathetic attitude of Monsignor Maurice Dooley, a priest who told the programme that if a child came to him to report abuse, or if an abuser told him what they had done, he would not report it to the police.

 

Kate's testimony begins at just after 1:14:00. Monsignor Dooley is at 1:40:30. In the case of the latter, it's because attitudes like his still exist, and because the Catholic Church have described his view as "personal", and will not prevent him continuing to practice as a priest (and presumably, others like him with similar views), that I think a full investigation into the Catholic Church is necessary. As another caller said, it may not be a question of a few bad apples; but the whole barrel being rotten.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rgmnv/Stephen_Nolan_19_03_2010/

[wibble]

These abuse scandals went almost entirely unreported in English-language media. The German government wants to investigate the Catholic church because of this issue. The German Catholic church is resisting this - and is supported by the leadership of the Social Democrats, who traditionally have not been friends of conservatives or Catholics. And I think they are right. Why should one group be investigated because of child abuse while others are left alone? Are we afraid of what the results of a wide-ranging investigation would tell us about the society we live in?

 

 

How can they be right to resist an inquiry?

 

They may be right to insist that the inquiry includes all of these other groups, but to suggest that because others did it that the Catholic Church also gets away with it is wrong.

 

It's time the tax-free status of all of these organisations was stripped from them and the abusers and their cohorts were thrown in jail. Hideous crimes have been committed against children and the abusers think a few letters and a couple of sorrys are enough to get them off the hook. Our governments and law enforcement agencies are letting down the citizens of our countries by not ripping through these dens of pedophilia.

 

Anyone who remains a member of the Roman Catholic Church has to have their sanity questioned.

[Ulysses]

How can they be right to resist an inquiry?

 

They may be right to insist that the inquiry includes all of these other groups, but to suggest that because others did it that the Catholic Church also gets away with it is wrong.

 

But the German CDU/CSU has suggested something that is every bit as perverse - that the Catholic church should be investigated while the Lutherans and the secularists get away with it. If one believes that systemic child abuse exists somewhere, why propose to investigate some of the abuse and not investigate other aspects?

 

 

It's time the tax-free status of all of these organisations was stripped from them and the abusers and their cohorts were thrown in jail. Hideous crimes have been committed against children and the abusers think a few letters and a couple of sorrys are enough to get them off the hook. Our governments and law enforcement agencies are letting down the citizens of our countries by not ripping through these dens of pedophilia.

 

Agreed. There is no sound reason for an organisation to have tax exemptions just because it is based on religion, and I cannot think of any good public policy reason to let child abusers get away with their crimes.

 

 

Anyone who remains a member of the Roman Catholic Church has to have their sanity questioned.

 

I'm no great fan of any religious belief system, and I'm on record as saying on this forum that belief in gods is delusional in nature - but even I wouldn't go so far as to question the sanity of people who are members of the Catholic church or any church. The overwhelming majority of people I know went to Catholic schools, churches and youth groups in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Most of them have serious issues about the brand of conservative authoritarian Catholicism that prevailed in Ireland in that era. All of them find the child sexual abuse that took place in Ireland's "industrial school" system repugnant. But none of them were themselves abused, and none of them have ever known anyone who was abused.

 

The fact is that the vast majority of Irish Catholics never encountered sexual abuse because the vast majority of their priests didn't perpetrate it. The same can be said for German Catholics. And if they want to "preserve their sanity" by leaving what are they supposed to do? Join the Lutherans?

 

At the risk of pointing out the monumentally obvious, child sexual abuse is repulsive regardless of whether it is perpetrated by Catholics, Protestants, atheists or anyone else.

[Miller Jambo 60]

i cant see how anyone could have issue with any of that.

 

 

Like i was saying to my mates at tyne today, this is heavy stuff.

Leave it, footies my thing.

 

Doug

[Rab]

In the middle of a rational debate, that was a silly and hysterical statement.

 

On a tangentially related issue, just as the Irish "industrial schools" were run by Catholic religious orders, the German "industrial schools" were run by Lutherans. Last year the German Lutheran church apologised for the abuse of children in the schools that it ran. The apology was issued by Bishop Margot Kassmann, who until recently was head Germany's evangelical Protestant churches.

 

And the problem isn't confined to people of religious faith, either. Germany's elite Odenwald boarding school, renowned for its progressive, liberal and secular education philosophy, has apologised for the abuse of more than 100 children in a 15-year period from 1970 to 1985.

 

These abuse scandals went almost entirely unreported in English-language media. The German government wants to investigate the Catholic church because of this issue. The German Catholic church is resisting this - and is supported by the leadership of the Social Democrats, who traditionally have not been friends of conservatives or Catholics. And I think they are right. Why should one group be investigated because of child abuse while others are left alone? Are we afraid of what the results of a wide-ranging investigation would tell us about the society we live in?

 

First off, as a global organisation the Lutheran Church has nowhere near the influence of the Catholic Church.

 

The boarding school that apologised for abuse of more than 100 children is in no way irrelevant; however in terms of scale it is insignificant compared to the abuses committed by priests in the Catholic Church.

 

I hate to say this, but claiming the Catholic Church is not the only organisation that has been caught abusing children is the act of an apologist.

 

A man who is the leader of an organization of - quite probably - one billion people has been implicated in the cover up of systematic pedophilia within said organisation.

 

The man who provides spiritual guidance to the largest individual religious community on the planet allegedly believed that not telling civil authorities that priests under his direct authority raped children was the best course of action.

 

I could go on a lot here. But the main issue here is not what priests did because there can always be the odd one that slips through; but what the church did when they found out priests were raping children.

 

Yes, raping children.

 

Let's be clear on that.

 

Senior figures in the Catholic Church, possibly including the Pope himself, decided that if a priest rapes a child they should not call the police.

 

Rather, they should move him to another parish. Where said priests continued to rape children.

 

Is there any other organisation on the planet that could commit these acts, be found to be committing them at the highest level and remain immune from any prosection?

[Miller Jambo 60]

First off, as a global organisation the Lutheran Church has nowhere near the influence of the Catholic Church.

 

The boarding school that apologised for abuse of more than 100 children is in no way irrelevant; however in terms of scale it is insignificant compared to the abuses committed by priests in the Catholic Church.

 

I hate to say this, but claiming the Catholic Church is not the only organisation that has been caught abusing children is the act of an apologist.

 

A man who is the leader of an organization of - quite probably - one billion people has been implicated in the cover up of systematic pedophilia within said organisation.

 

The man who provides spiritual guidance to the largest individual religious community on the planet allegedly believed that not telling civil authorities that priests under his direct authority raped children was the best course of action.

 

I could go on a lot here. But the main issue here is not what priests did because there can always be the odd one that slips through; but what the church did when they found out priests were raping children.

 

Yes, raping children.

 

Let's be clear on that.

 

Senior figures in the Catholic Church, possibly including the Pope himself, decided that if a priest rapes a child they should not call the police.

 

Rather, they should move him to another parish. Where said priests continued to rape children.

 

Is there any other organisation on the planet that could commit these acts, be found to be committing them at the highest level and remain immune from any prosection?

 

 

Ok try and be proper here, im a prod which eveyone knows , but the catholics have their own beliefs.

I do think the catholic church has hidden a lot of crimes due to their confession rules.

Doug.

 

TOO HEAVY

[Rab]

The overwhelming majority of people I know went to Catholic schools, churches and youth groups in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Most of them have serious issues about the brand of conservative authoritarian Catholicism that prevailed in Ireland in that era. All of them find the child sexual abuse that took place in Ireland's "industrial school" system repugnant. But none of them were themselves abused, and none of them have ever known anyone who was abused.

 

How do you know they were not abused, and how do you - or they - know no one they ever knew was abused?

 

The fact is that the vast majority of Irish Catholics never encountered sexual abuse because the vast majority of their priests didn't perpetrate it. The same can be said for German Catholics. And if they want to "preserve their sanity" by leaving what are they supposed to do? Join the Lutherans?

 

At what point does the term "vast majority" become relevant when we're talking about sexual abuse of a child by an adult in a trusted position?

 

And in any sense, the average priest is not in question here, any reasonable person knows that the "vast majority" of priests don't sexually abuse children.

 

The problem is what those in charge of the priests who DID sexually abuse children did when they found out.

 

At the risk of pointing out the monumentally obvious, child sexual abuse is repulsive regardless of whether it is perpetrated by Catholics, Protestants, atheists or anyone else.

 

At the same risk, any individual allowing a pedophile the opportunity to sexually abuse a child after said pedophile has abused other children deserves - at a minimum - criminal prosecution.

[Rab]

Ok try and be proper here, im a prod which eveyone knows , but the catholics have their own beliefs.

I do think the catholic church has hidden a lot of crimes due to their confession rules.

Doug.

 

TOO HEAVY

 

Doug, I know a lot of Catholics. I live with one. None of them would ever attempt to defend child sex abuse.

 

The problem is the institution, not the members.

[wibble]

I'm no great fan of any religious belief system, and I'm on record as saying on this forum that belief in gods is delusional in nature - but even I wouldn't go so far as to question the sanity of people who are members of the Catholic church or any church. The overwhelming majority of people I know went to Catholic schools, churches and youth groups in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Most of them have serious issues about the brand of conservative authoritarian Catholicism that prevailed in Ireland in that era. All of them find the child sexual abuse that took place in Ireland's "industrial school" system repugnant. But none of them were themselves abused, and none of them have ever known anyone who was abused.

 

The fact is that the vast majority of Irish Catholics never encountered sexual abuse because the vast majority of their priests didn't perpetrate it. The same can be said for German Catholics. And if they want to "preserve their sanity" by leaving what are they supposed to do? Join the Lutherans?

 

At the risk of pointing out the monumentally obvious, child sexual abuse is repulsive regardless of whether it is perpetrated by Catholics, Protestants, atheists or anyone else.

 

 

 

My point is that the Catholic church (and the Lutherans etc.) conspired to cover-up and protect the pedophiles within their midst.

These cover-ups have been perpetrated by EVERY priest within the church, not just the abusers. Every priest will have known the rules and every priest will have known of abuse cases. How many of them reported it to the police?

 

This makes every priest a criminal in my book.

 

Anyone with this knowledge who remains a member of that church is basically saying that pedophilia within the ranks of their church is OK with them.

 

As I say. ANYONE who can look objectively at the the role of the church in all of this and still want to remain a practising member needs to have a ******* good look at themselves.

 

You can still believe in God without seeking guidance from a den of beasts.

 

 

[Ulysses]

My point is that the Catholic church (and the Lutherans etc.) conspired to cover-up and protect the pedophiles within their midst.

 

If that is your point, why have you singled out one group and said that anyone who continues to be attached to it should have their sanity questioned?

 

 

These cover-ups have been perpetrated by EVERY priest within the church, not just the abusers. Every priest will have known the rules and every priest will have known of abuse cases. How many of them reported it to the police?

 

This makes every priest a criminal in my book.

 

Every? Are you sure of that? What's your evidence for it? I wouldn't go near the Catholic church with a 30-metre stick and a radiation suit - but I wouldn't make a claim that every one of its clergy is a criminal without having evidence to support it. There is a big distinction between saying that the systems and structures of the organisation are warped and corrupt and saying that every individual either perpetrated or covered up crimes.

 

 

 

Anyone with this knowledge who remains a member of that church is basically saying that pedophilia within the ranks of their church is OK with them.

 

And the German Lutherans? I couldn't say what the motivation of Catholics or German Protestants is for remaining in their congregations, as I don't belong to either group, but to dismiss them as supporting child sexual abuse is hysterical.

[Ulysses]

Doug, I know a lot of Catholics. I live with one. None of them would ever attempt to defend child sex abuse.

 

The problem is the institution, not the members.

 

Yes, but Doug has a very valid point when he talks about "confession rules".

[I.J]

[Ulysses]

I hate to say this, but claiming the Catholic Church is not the only organisation that has been caught abusing children is the act of an apologist.

 

And so you should.

[Rab]

And so you should.

 

Feel free to expand on that, or to address anything else

[allanio]

Can't sack the Pope, but could perhaps arrest him (even as a Head of State) for Crimes Against Humanity, being ("particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority.") Would love to see the UK government attempt this, but they're spineless.

 

 

Actually, it just couldn't happen under international law.

[wibble]

If that is your point, why have you singled out one group and said that anyone who continues to be attached to it should have their sanity questioned?

Errrrr .... because the thread is about THAT organisation. You start one about the Lutherans and I'll say a similar thing.

 

 

Every? Are you sure of that? What's your evidence for it? I wouldn't go near the Catholic church with a 30-metre stick and a radiation suit - but I wouldn't make a claim that every one of its clergy is a criminal without having evidence to support it. There is a big distinction between saying that the systems and structures of the organisation are warped and corrupt and saying that every individual either perpetrated or covered up crimes.

It doesn't take a genius to know what has been going on for decades in the Catholic church, and there can be no doubt that all of their priests knew some or all of what was going on. By remaining in that church they each gave their stamp of approval to the way that it was handled and by not reporting it to the police they each committed a crime in my book.

 

 

And the German Lutherans? I couldn't say what the motivation of Catholics or German Protestants is for remaining in their congregations, as I don't belong to either group, but to dismiss them as supporting child sexual abuse is hysterical.

 

 

By remaining a part of the church you are saying that their behaviour doesn't bother you particularly much. If that's not condoning that behaviour then what is?

 

You keep bringing up other churches as if that matters. The thread was about the catholic church and the extent of the abuse that has (and probably still is) taking place. The catholic church has sytematically abused kids for decades and has conspired from top to bottom to cover up the abuse and give the abusers further opportunities to abuse while pressuring victims to keep quiet.

 

They now expect the world to forgive them with a few apologies and a couple of hail mary's. Luckily for them there are plenty of people like you who seem to be quite happy to let them off the hook. Pathetic.

 

 

[Ulysses]

By remaining a part of the church you are saying that their behaviour doesn't bother you particularly much. If that's not condoning that behaviour then what is?

 

As I've said already, I am neither Lutheran nor Catholic and I wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume what the motivation of Lutherans or Catholics would be for remaining members of their churches. But I would imagine that many of them want to continue to believe in their faith system (I don't agree with them, but I'm not in a position to condemn them). Maybe they want someone (whoever that is) to clean the organisation up. Maybe they naively believe that the organisation can clean itself up. But to suggest that they are condoning child abuse by persisting with their faith doesn't make any sense.

 

 

You keep bringing up other churches as if that matters.

 

That's because it does matter. German Protestant children have as much right to be protected from abuse and to have the perpetrators of that abuse brought to justice as any other children. Do you or do you not agree?

 

 

The catholic church has sytematically abused kids for decades and has conspired from top to bottom to cover up the abuse and give the abusers further opportunities to abuse while pressuring victims to keep quiet.

 

And the rule of law should do its work both on the abusers and the organisational structures that supported them. But that rule of law should not be applied to one group only.

 

 

Luckily for them there are plenty of people like you who seem to be quite happy to let them off the hook. Pathetic.

 

On what do you base this remark? Where have I suggested that anyone should be let off the hook?

[Doctor FinnBarr]

I hope Jim Devine reads that article.

 

 

Should I ask him next Friday when hes in the pub with his bird whose young enough to be his grandaughter?

 

[wibble]

Uly,

 

The thread is about the Catholic church, that is why I have been focused on the Catholic church.

 

You have said that members of the Catholic church have no choice but to stay with the catholic church. I disagree. There are plenty of other christian churches, many who are similar to the catholic church. They all pray to the same God.

 

If a person feels a tie to the Catholic church it must be because of some kind of devotion to the pope rather than a belief in God. It has been stated already that the pope has been a key player in the cover-up of child abuse, therefore anyone who feels they have to remain a memeber of the catholic church is either an apologist for the child abusing priesthood or simply hasn't thought enough about the issue. I stand by my statement that anyone who remains a member needs their head examined.

 

Also, there are many parents who send their kids to catholic schools in the belief that the education provided is better. By doing this they are sending a vote of confidence to the church and a message to government that the catholic church is intrinsically good. I think the behaviour of the church over decades has proven it to be intrinsically evil.

 

Any organisation that harbours child abusers should be investigated in detail. The question has to be asked - why has the catholic church not been pulled apart piece by piece in a very high level investigation?

[Ulysses]

Uly,

 

The thread is about the Catholic church, that is why I have been focused on the Catholic church.

 

To be completely honest, I'm not terribly concerned with your motivation in focusing on the Catholic church. My point - and it is particularly valid in a thread concerned with the Catholic church - is that Germany's Catholic church is right to question why German politicians are calling for abuse by Catholics to be investigated and not calling for abuse by Lutherans to be similarly investigated.

 

 

You have said that members of the Catholic church have no choice but to stay with the catholic church.

 

No I haven't.

 

 

I disagree.

 

With whom?

 

 

If a person feels a tie to the Catholic church it must be because of some kind of devotion to the pope rather than a belief in God.

 

Must it? How many Catholics have you discussed this with?

 

 

Also, there are many parents who send their kids to catholic schools in the belief that the education provided is better. By doing this they are sending a vote of confidence to the church and a message to government that the catholic church is intrinsically good.

 

Are they? Maybe their kids are at schools that are well-run. Maybe their kids are happy and safe, and have built up the same connections and friendships that kids do in any school. Removing a child or teenager from a well-run school in which they are happy and thus disconnecting their social circle can cause serious emotional disruption for a child. Why would a parent do that if their child is happy at school? How do you know the factors on which they are basing their decisions? From where do you claim your expertise?

 

Two questions follow from that:

 

1. What do your Catholic friends who have children think about your views?

2. What sort of school do your children go to?

 

 

Any organisation that harbours child abusers should be investigated in detail.

 

Can I take it that you therefore agree with me that German politicians should not be singling out one institution for investigation, but should apply the same logic to any institution where child abuse happened and was covered up?

 

 

The question has to be asked - why has the catholic church not been pulled apart piece by piece in a very high level investigation?

 

What do you mean by "the question has to be asked"? The question IS being asked. It's what happens next (or doesn't happen next) that is the real issue.

[The Old Tolbooth]

Brilliant article.

 

I have zero respect for any religion.

 

The world will be a better place when everyone feels the same way.

Have to be totally honest here and say that I'm with you all the way on this one Chad.

[jambovambo]

Just to clarify, this thread was not started, as being about the Catholic church.

 

The article is about religion, and the things that people do, think, feel, and get away with, because of that and by hiding behind that.

[Tynie b]

Just to clarify, this thread was not started, as being about the Catholic church.

 

The article is about religion, and the things that people do, think, feel, and get away with, because of that and by hiding behind that.

 

 

Correct. As I've said in other threads about Religion and this "God" Thing. Some people HIDE behind their religion, to forgive themselves for things they've done in the past. Some people actually believe that if you believe in this "God" Thing and talk to him, your Okay...Forget the fact your a Paedo, Rapist, Drug Dealer...If you don't believe in the thing "God", and you once stole sweets from a shop when you were 10, you'll go to the burny fires of hell, "God" sees you as bad as a Rapist BECAUSE you don't believe in him!! I'm F***** then, because ALL religions are F***** Up...They can't even agree on who's in charge for **** sake...God, Allah, Jehova, Mohamedd...Robbo (Him I believe in).

 

As for the thought of the Paedophile Loving Pope coming to this country, at the TAX PAYER EXPENSE, makes me ******* Sick. This is someone who covers up Child Rape by the Perverts in his charge, Still THOUSANDS of his "Followers" will pack Bellahouston Park to listen to the preachings of an Old Pervert. It's like going to a Gary Glitter concert.

This is a Man/Church, Responsible for Millions of deaths in Africa by telling the poor, bewildered people not to use condoms as it's against their religion!

This has caused a MASSIVE outbreak of HIV/AIDS all over Africa. Does he give a flying?? Does he ****

 

They have trials for War crimes, Why not have trials for the Mass MURDER of innocent people and the Rape of Children, and bring this Pervert and his Church to Justice!?

Then, when we've dealt with the Biggest problem, go for ALL religions that condone Paedophilia...Stop them hiding behind some made up entity...They wouldn't come out and say, "Everythings alright, were sorry, we've moved the dirty beasts to another parish...Now on your way while we pray to Santa" (He's as real as "God"!!)

 

Rant Over!!