Political Leaders' debate...but no SNP

[Therapist]

Fat Alex will be absolutely raging. :santa1:

 

I am really looking forward to seeing Mr Cameron rip Cyclops Brown up for toilet tissue. :santa4:

[The Comedian]

Fat Alex will be absolutely raging. :santa1:

 

I am really looking forward to seeing Mr Cameron rip Cyclops Brown up for toilet tissue. :santa4:

I can't see how Brown will come out of this looking good, he has all the personality of a brick.

[2NaFish]

whilst broon is hardly a great debater, i fail to see how anyone can have any faith in dave. i dont see anyone coming out of this looking good.

 

as for the snp, it gives them something to complain about and lets them remind us we're being ignored by westminster. eck will be delighted either way.

[Therapist]

I can't see how Brown will come out of this looking good, he has all the personality of a brick.

 

It's desperation measures at Labour HQ. This is the last throw of the dice.

[shaun.lawson]

On the SNP: if a debate is held in Scotland and covers predominantly Scottish politics, Salmond should be included. If one isn't, he no doubt won't be.

 

I think the debates will be good for the Lib Dems, potentially good for Labour... and bad for the Tories. Debates are always most dangerous for the party in the lead, and the continued lack of genuine public goodwill towards Cameron makes this risky terrain for him. He may wow everyone, much as he did during the Tory leadership race in 2005; or his all style, no substance pigeonhole may come back to get him, horribly.

 

All the focus and pressure will, I suspect, be on him: curious given he's not the man in power, rather more understandable when you factor in how little is known about his policies. It's great for politics in general though: high time we had something like this, and it'll hopefully liven up a contest which currently resembles resistible object against movable force.

[Therapist]

Nick Griffin has more of a claim to be included in the debate than Fat Alex has.

[2NaFish]

On the SNP: if a debate is held in Scotland and covers predominantly Scottish politics, Salmond should be included. If one isn't, he no doubt won't be.

 

I think he's complaining due to his position as an MP and leader of the SNP, as are the welsh nationalist; and probably the BNP and the greens, etc.

 

Fair play to them to. It seems undemocratic to give lots of prime air-time to the three main parties. Almost as if the fringe parties are not not to be invited to the shindig. Its not a 2 party system like the states, so why alienate everyone but the big three?

[2NaFish]

Nick Griffin has more of a claim to be included in the debate than Fat Alex has.

 

Seeing as these are debates in the run up to a national general election you'll be so good as to remind me how many seats the BNP have at westeminster as opposed to the SNP.

[Therapist]

This is a debate about the Westminster government. The SNP does not compete nationally. The BNP does.

[2NaFish]

This is a debate about the Westminster government. The SNP does not compete nationally. The BNP does.

 

they both do.

 

to say the bnp has more right, is simply wrong.

 

 

edit. We shouldnt be having a debate on who forms the government. We dont live in america.

[Therapist]

they both do.

 

 

 

Can you post a link to non-Scottish seats that the SNP has contested? Thanks.

[Drew Busby !]

Agree with BarneyB, good to see a Hearts fan on the national political stage.

[2NaFish]

 

 

Can you post a link to non-Scottish seats that the SNP has contested? Thanks.

 

 

irrelevant. scotland is part of the united kingdom, ergo they compete nationally.

[Therapist]

irrelevant. scotland is part of the united kingdom, ergo they compete nationally.

 

They are a regional party, and a diddy one to boot.

 

Incidentally, for those who are doing some rather un-subtle fishing regarding Fat Alex's Hearts credentials I suggest you post on the specific thread that addresses the subject. :santa1:

[2NaFish]

They are a regional party, and a diddy one to boot.

 

Yuh-huh. Not gonna interact with my point though? I'll take that as an acceptance of defeat.

[shaun.lawson]

I think he's complaining due to his position as an MP and leader of the SNP, as are the welsh nationalist; and probably the BNP and the greens, etc.

 

Fair play to them to. It seems undemocratic to give lots of prime air-time to the three main parties. Almost as if the fringe parties are not not to be invited to the shindig. Its not a 2 party system like the states, so why alienate everyone but the big three?

 

Where do we draw a line though? Do we also invite Plaid Cymru, all the various Northern Irish parties, UKIP, the Greens and the BNP as well? It'd fast become unmanageable in that case. That only three parties are being involved is because they're the only three UK-wide parties recognised as electorally credible by most of the public. Even the Lib Dems' credentials are iffy, but balancing that is the possibility (or likelihood if you ask me) of a hung Parliament.

[davemclaren]

They are a regional party, and a diddy one to boot.

 

Incidentally, for those who are doing some rather un-subtle fishing regarding Fat Alex's Hearts credentials I suggest you post on the specific thread that addresses the subject. :santa1:

 

Yawn...

 

The BBC/ITV/SKY lawyers clearly think that they can do this but it will be interesting to see if the SNP challenge it in court. We'll probably end up with some compromise programme on specific Scottish topics.

[2NaFish]

Where do we draw a line though? Do we also invite Plaid Cymru, all the various Northern Irish parties, UKIP and the BNP as well? It'd fast become unmanageable in that case. That only three parties are being involved is because they're the only three UK-wide parties recognised as electorally credible by most of the public. Even the Lib Dems' credentials are iffy, but balancing that is the possibility (or likelihood if you ask me) of a hung Parliament.

 

I dont think we should be doing it then. Its against british democratic principles. It works in america where there brand of democracy involves voting for one of two people. In britain our system is different, and a national debate is wrong.

 

This being said, i hate the tories and this is one of the few ways of keeping them out, so i'm torn.

[blairdin]

Nick Griffin has more of a claim to be included in the debate than Fat Alex has.

 

Nonsense. Democracy dictates if both mens parties are trying to win seats, both have grounds to be involved. Ditto Welsh and Northern Irish parties. The BNP are filth.

 

The way I see it, Labour have blown their mandate with everyone, Tories will are a long way away from having a genuine mandate up here, the Lib Dems are the Lib Dems, so the SNP must be allowed to put their case.

 

I think the Tories will either sneak the election, or we'll have a hung parliment. If we're heading for the latter, then smaller parties like SNP and, sadly, the BNP have a bigger part to play.

[The Mighty Thor]

They are a regional party, and a diddy one to boot.

 

Incidentally, for those who are doing some rather un-subtle fishing regarding Fat Alex's Hearts credentials I suggest you post on the specific thread that addresses the subject. :santa1:

 

I think the First Minister is quite correct to challenge this ludicrous decision. We are all part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland after all. Aren't we?

[shaun.lawson]

I dont think we should be doing it then. Its against british democratic principles. It works in america where there brand of democracy involves voting for one of two people. In britain our system is different, and a national debate is wrong.

 

This being said, i hate the tories and this is one of the few ways of keeping them out, so i'm torn.

 

Ah - but here's the paradox. The electorate are increasingly disenchanted and disconnected from politics - and while it's of course correct that we merely elect MPs, the largest grouping among them going on to form a government (with the help of another group if they don't have an overall majority), that's not how much of the public views our political system nowadays.

 

Now, if a party leader is popular, all or at least the vast majority of their MPs will be; if a leader's unpopular, all or at least most suffer in tandem. Swings (oooh er missus) tend to be consistent across the country at general elections: with a few notable exceptions, people seem to vote for a party now, not just an MP. And the fortunes of that party rest massively on how its leader is perceived.

 

It's not how the system's supposed to work, I agree; it is how it seems to nowadays though. In that regard, having a debate between the main party leaders is just an acknowledgement of where we are now: it's modern, and I think much of the public will love the idea (before watching the first debate and being horrified by the pathetic lack of choice on offer...).

[2NaFish]

Ah - but here's the paradox. The electorate are increasingly disenchanted and disconnected from politics - and while it's of course correct that we merely elect MPs, the largest grouping among them going on to form a government (with the help of another group if they don't have an overall majority), that's not how much of the public views our political system nowadays.

 

Now, if a party leader is popular, all or at least the vast majority of their MPs will be; if a leader's unpopular, all or at least most suffer in tandem. Swings (oooh er missus) tend to be consistent across the country at general elections: with a few notable exceptions, people seem to vote for a party now, not just an MP. And the fortunes of that party rest massively on how its leader is perceived.

 

It's not how the system's supposed to work, I agree; it is how it seems to nowadays though. In that regard, having a debate between the main party leaders is just an acknowledgement of where we are now: it's modern, and I think much of the public will love the idea (before watching the first debate and being horrified by the pathetic lack of choice on offer...).

 

Just give them all pointy sticks, plop them in a cage and let them have it out. We can sell tickets.

[Drew Busby !]

The name of the game is politics.

 

If Salmond gets a seat at the TV debate thats a result. He's a good debater and would land a few punches.

 

Or - If Salmond gets knocked back then he can cry foul, injustice etc and get lots of political mileage out of that.

 

Win-win whether he takes part (unlikely in all honesty) or is knocked back. (far more likely).

 

Like I say, its politics and every political leader would fight tooth and nail to do the same thing. Be surprising if UKIP, the BNP didn't also challenge the TV companies.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I wouldn't be so sure Mr T.

 

Call me Dave's lead in opinion polls is going down quicker than Traitor McGheady as the Great British public gets more and more annoyed with the tories reluctance to commit and actually say anything other than uttering vague general statements. A 4 point swing in the last month according to the Guardian.

Even if disco does get elected, the small majority will hamstring his party and restrict them to one term in office.

 

Add in gibbering gordon getting the boot and being replaced by the very electable David Milliband and it doesn't suggest the dawning of a new era under the eton toff.

 

Anyhow, I'll be too busy quaffing export and scoffing mince pies to worry too much about it over the next couple of weeks!

 

Do you think fat Alex has his derby ticket yet? Good to have a jambo running the country:smiliz64:

 

The latest poll in The Observer had the state of play as Con 43, Lab 26, LD 20, a 5 point swing since the Pre Budget farce.

 

My personal view is that there is an anti-Brown and anti-politics feeling rather than any pro-Tory feeling, although some people seem to accept that it will have to be the Tories who will dish out the nasty medicine.

[shaun.lawson]

Just give them all pointy sticks, plop them in a cage and let them have it out. We can sell tickets.

 

For some reason, this image springs immediately to mind:

 

[blairdin]

The latest poll in The Observer had the state of play as Con 43, Lab 26, LD 20, a 5 point swing since the Pre Budget farce.

 

My personal view is that there is an anti-Brown and anti-politics feeling rather than any pro-Tory feeling, although some people seem to accept that it will have to be the Tories who will dish out the nasty medicine.

 

Do you reckon that could include a few figures with clout in the Labour Party? Five years to bin Brown, re-group and slate the inevitable Tory cuts? This is looking like an election where the biggest winners could in fact be the losers on the night.

[Therapist]

If Salmond gets a seat at the TV debate thats a result. He's a good debater

 

I'd say Fat Alex is a master debator.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Do you reckon that could include a few figures with clout in the Labour Party? Five years to bin Brown, re-group and slate the inevitable Tory cuts? This is looking like an election where the biggest winners could in fact be the losers on the night.

 

Quite probably. The problem there is they might do what the Tories did post 1997 and break out the in-fighting between the Brownites, the Lefties and the Blairites (although some of them will probably schmooze up to the Tories in the hope of maybe getting a role).

 

But indeed, the Tories, if they win, will be constantly attacked on "Tory cuts" from Day 1, despite the fact they are inevitable no matter who wins.

[shaun.lawson]

Quite probably. The problem there is they might do what the Tories did post 1997 and break out the in-fighting between the Brownites, the Lefties and the Blairites (although some of them will probably schmooze up to the Tories in the hope of maybe getting a role).

 

But indeed, the Tories, if they win, will be constantly attacked on "Tory cuts" from Day 1, despite the fact they are inevitable no matter who wins.

 

I think this is pretty much inevitable if Labour win this time, but lose next time. Lose this time, and they'll probably be able to regroup without too much difficulty. And I agree: this election represents a poisoned chalice for whoever wins. My money's firmly on the losing party prospering far more in the medium and longer term.

[Drew Busby !]

Browns only hope is a post-election stitch up with the Lib-Dems. Quite likely that the Tories could win the largest share of the vote (they did last time) but the perverse first past the post electoral arithmetic coukd deny them victory in terms of seats. Brown would cut virtually ANY deal with the Lib-Dems to deny the Tories (lets face it the hatred is visceral) and Clegg would be insane not to take the only chance of power sharing his party has had in over 30 years.

 

The debates will be crucial on that score. Brown will savage Cameron with a series of clumsy but targeted class-warfare/scaremongering attacks, invoking the ghost of Thatcher. That will shore up Labour support in their heartlands. Clegg can come across as the acceptable middle ground, but he will probably also focus his attacks on Cameron. If he goes in too hard on Brown, then he runs the risk of losing the possibility of a hung-parliament and a power sharing deal. It'll be tag-team wrestling with Cameron taking the brunt of it and Brown and Clegg pulling their punches when facing up to each other.

 

Game on I'd say !

[2NaFish]

For some reason, this image springs immediately to mind:

 

 

Bring back Paddy Ashdown and the Lib Dems are a shoo-in.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Browns only hope is a post-election stitch up with the Lib-Dems. Quite likely that the Tories could win the largest share of the vote (they did last time) but the perverse first past the post electoral arithmetic coukd deny them victory in terms of seats. Brown would cut virtually ANY deal with the Lib-Dems to deny the Tories (lets face it the hatred is visceral) and Clegg would be insane not to take the only chance of power sharing his party has had in over 30 years.

 

The debates will be crucial on that score. Brown will savage Cameron with a series of clumsy but targeted class-warfare/scaremongering attacks, invoking the ghost of Thatcher. That will shore up Labour support in their heartlands. Clegg can come across as the acceptable middle ground, but he will probably also focus his attacks on Cameron. If he goes in too hard on Brown, then he runs the risk of losing the possibility of a hung-parliament and a power sharing deal. It'll be tag-team wrestling with Cameron taking the brunt of it and Brown and Clegg pulling their punches when facing up to each other.

 

Game on I'd say !

 

The problem for the Lib Dumbs is that they pretend to be nice Tories in natural Labour areas and nice Labour in Tory areas. Schmoozing up to Brown (or another Labour leader) when Labour come 2nd would see them wiped out in the South of England at any subsequent election.

 

It's a fair point that Cameron will be the target though.

[shaun.lawson]

The problem for the Lib Dumbs is that they pretend to be nice Tories in natural Labour areas and nice Labour in Tory areas. Schmoozing up to Brown (or another Labour leader) when Labour come 2nd would see them wiped out in the South of England at any subsequent election.

It's a fair point that Cameron will be the target though.

 

They only do this because the system forces them to though: FPTP makes it impossible for third parties. If I was Nick Clegg, I would on no account agree to a coalition unless I was given a pledge that a bill changing the electoral system to PR or a variation of it would be brought in immediately. This is their only chance of achieving it; selling out for less would come back to bite them on the bum pretty quickly.

 

Of course, neither Labour nor the Tories would agree to it: meaning either a Tory/Labour coalition (which'd be hilarious, but obviously ain't going to happen), or a fresh election.

[Pistol1874]

Bring back Paddy Ashdown and the Lib Dems are a shoo-in.

I would prefer William Hague to David Cameron. I wonder how many others are the same.

[Boris]

There will be separate debates held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland among all the main parties, which will be broadcast on BBC Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and across the UK on the BBC News Channel

 

There we go.

[Big D]

They are a regional party, and a diddy one to boot.

 

Incidentally, for those who are doing some rather un-subtle fishing regarding Fat Alex's Hearts credentials I suggest you post on the specific thread that addresses the subject. :santa1:

 

How many seats do the slightly more conservative of the unionist parties have in northern Britain. Does that embarassingly low figure disqualify them as a national party. Just a thought.

[Cabbie754]

How many seats do the slightly more conservative of the unionist parties have in northern Britain. Does that embarassingly low figure disqualify them as a national party. Just a thought.

 

If memory serves me correct the Tories have the one Westminster seat and two MSP seats, the rest of the Tory MSP's are regional list.

 

Remember they were wiped out of Scotland in 97 and didn't win any seats (apart from regional list)in the first Scottish Parliament elections. They don't run any councils, well apart from the odd coalition, one council with Labour!!!

[Boris]

How many seats do the slightly more conservative of the unionist parties have in northern Britain. Does that embarassingly low figure disqualify them as a national party. Just a thought.

 

If memory serves me correct the Tories have the one Westminster seat and two MSP seats, the rest of the Tory MSP's are regional list.

 

Remember they were wiped out of Scotland in 97 and didn't win any seats (apart from regional list)in the first Scottish Parliament elections. They don't run any councils, well apart from the odd coalition, one council with Labour!!!

 

But at least they put their deposits where their mouths are and stand in all UK constituencies (I believe they are standing in NI now too?)

 

Lack of electoral success shouldn't bar anyone or any party from standing. The SNP only won 6 seats at the last Westminster election, out of a possible 59. Hardly a mandate!

[Cabbie754]

Three things I'd like to add.

 

The problem with having the leaders of the 'main' parties in a debate is if anything is debated about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland there is no representative to put its side of the argument over so we have a one sided debate

 

If the debate includes subjects that are devolved then they will have little or no relevance to three parts of the UK.

 

Having only the 'main' British parties represented puts a lie to the argument that there is a sepreate Scottish Labour and Tory party.

[bighusref]

Stepping aside from politics for one moment, as if the fishermen from this thread are talking politics , Alex Salmond is a man I just cannot stand. What an extremely easy man to hate.

[Boris]

Three things I'd like to add.

 

The problem with having the leaders of the 'main' parties in a debate is if anything is debated about Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland there is no representative to put its side of the argument over so we have a one sided debate

 

If the debate includes subjects that are devolved then they will have little or no relevance to three parts of the UK.

 

Having only the 'main' British parties represented puts a lie to the argument that there is a sepreate Scottish Labour and Tory party.

 

I doubt that the debate will move into issues related to Wales, N.Ireland or Scotland hence why there are seperate debates planned for these parts of the UK.

 

If the debate includes subjects that are devolved, I would argue that they are probably more relevant to three parts of the UK than to Scotland - as things devolved to Scotland may still be under the remit of Westminster for Wales & N.Ireland.

[Big D]

But at least they put their deposits where their mouths are and stand in all UK constituencies (I believe they are standing in NI now too?)

 

Lack of electoral success shouldn't bar anyone or any party from standing. The SNP only won 6 seats at the last Westminster election, out of a possible 59. Hardly a mandate!

 

My point was that those parties that can afford to lose deposits U.K. wide have very selective geographical support. The only logic that seems to have been applied to who is permitted to take part in this debate is that of the box office. In the very complex arena of U.K. politics there is no fair way of running this debate, so who is encouraging it, and why should the majority of us who are disenfranchised by Westminster, accept that this in our, or democracy's best interest.

[Boris]

My point was that those parties that can afford to lose deposits U.K. wide have very selective geographical support. The only logic that seems to have been applied to who is permitted to take part in this debate is that of the box office. In the very complex arena of U.K. politics there is no fair way of running this debate, so who is encouraging it, and why should the majority of us who are disenfranchised by Westminster, accept that this in our, or democracy's best interest.

 

But there are going to be "regional" debates too.

 

Are the majority of us disenfranchised by Westminster? At the last election Labour, the current Government, won roughly 2/3 of the seats available in Scotland. Seems pretty representative of the majority. That said our electoral system for Westminster is hardly democratic.

 

I agree that it seems rather strange and a sort of "Americanisation" of UK politics and personally I don't think it is the right thing. Goes against our whole parliamentary system and tends toward a more Presidential style of politics.

[Big D]

But there are going to be "regional" debates too.

 

Are the majority of us disenfranchised by Westminster? At the last election Labour, the current Government, won roughly 2/3 of the seats available in Scotland. Seems pretty representative of the majority. That said our electoral system for Westminster is hardly democratic.

 

With what percentage of the votes cast? That's my point about disenfranchisement in Westminster and the justification for only choosing 3 leaders whose mandate is gained through a democratically flawed system rejected by the civilised nations of Europe (Scotland included).

[davemclaren]

But there are going to be "regional" debates too.

 

Are the majority of us disenfranchised by Westminster? At the last election Labour, the current Government, won roughly 2/3 of the seats available in Scotland. Seems pretty representative of the majority. That said our electoral system for Westminster is hardly democratic.

 

I agree that it seems rather strange and a sort of "Americanisation" of UK politics and personally I don't think it is the right thing. Goes against our whole parliamentary system and tends toward a more Presidential style of politics.

 

It is a more presidential style of politics but, unfortunately, we've been heading that way for years.

 

Anyway, aren't the Socialist Workers Party of Dalry getting in on the act?

[Commander Harris]

Stepping aside from politics for one moment, as if the fishermen from this thread are talking politics , Alex Salmond is a man I just cannot stand. What an extremely easy man to hate.

I could tell a story about Alex Salmond on here but I'm not going to go into details for various reasons suffice to say that the words "english *******" were involved and they didn't come from my lips.

 

I've lost any respect I had for him.

[auldbauldfan]

I could tell a story about Alex Salmond on here but I'm not going to go into details for various reasons suffice to say that the words "english *******" were involved and they didn't come from my lips.

 

I've lost any respect I had for him.

 

 

 

If you have something to say, or a story to tell, have the b***s to come out and say it rather than hiding behind cryptic innuendo (if it is a true "story" what have you to fear?)

 

If I had any respect for you, I've now lost it!

[Boris]

It is a more presidential style of politics but, unfortunately, we've been heading that way for years.

 

Anyway, aren't the Socialist Workers Party of Dalry getting in on the act?

 

Soviets are being formed as we speak Dave...

[redm]

If you have something to say, or a story to tell, have the b***s to come out and say it rather than hiding behind cryptic innuendo (if it is a true "story" what have you to fear?)

 

If I had any respect for you, I've now lost it!

 

No more caffeine for auldbauldfan...

 

[RoaldJensen]

My vote goes to whoever can

1. reduce income tax to 5%

2. reduce council tax to two hundred pounds per annum

3. make whisky three pounds a bottle

4. reduce road tax to fifty pounds a year

5. make it a maximum of one hundred pounds to have my car serviced

6. only have an MOT for my car every two years and only charge ten pounds for the test

7. not make me have to wear a crash helmet on my motor bike

8. deliver a republic with no monarchy parasites

9. let me live in a society without IRA and UVF apologists

 

So I have after about two seconds consideration decided no to avail myself of the postal vote and just wish you all a fun contest. Merry Christmas.