Guest King Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I do not like the idea of Scottish independence. I am both British and Scottish and I like it that way. Im very proud of this, and im proud of our history and I dont want to see hundreds of years of it thrown away. FWIW im happy the way the Union was formed, for Scotland it was the best option and I believe it still is. TBH im pretty fed up of the SNP ramming this independence rubbish down my throat, will we get a vote on this any time soon so we can put an end to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Got it in one Shaun. Yup, I'm all in favour of promoting and being proud of cultural diversity (I hitch-hike everywhere in a kilt, I couldn't get away with saying otherwise ) but nationalism leaves me cold. It goes even as far as a dislike of seeing national flags flying (I judge the maturity and self-confidence of a country by how many flags its citizens fly - the fewer there are, the better). There's far too much nationalism about and it's usually more destructive than constructive. I know it sounds hippyish, but the only way I try to judge people is by whether they are good or bad (and that means the whole spectrum of goodness and badness and all its mixes, not some black or white thing), not by any other factor. It's something I think we as a human race have lost sight of, blinded by external factors such as race, colour, religion, sports team supported, tribe, sex, age, where we live, clothes, size etc. etc. I agree up to a point - but if you ask me, there's a world of difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism - love of one's country - is healthy and important. Nationalism all too frequently is more akin to hated of other countries. What I find so impressive about Salmond is, contrary to the nonsense which is often written on here, he hasn't played up to such hatred in the slightest. Probably because he'd rather like the best and the brightest in England to move to Scotland once independence has happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 If I have an opinion at all, I slightly lean towards independence - because I think it would enable Scotland to become really forward thinking and progressive, probably very pro-European while England remains deeply sceptical. But I was essentially serious in what I said: every people have the right to self-determination, and it's really not for me to opine on what they should do, one way or the other. this is where i struggle with it shaun. many Scot's want independance because they have a complex, or a chip on their shoulder about being "ruled by the English". Even with their own parliament and their own voice being louder than ever in the union this feeling still exists. Were Scotland to cease to be part of the union it would have an even smaller voice than it already has in Europe. Europe would just become the big bad man, rather than England. Scotland already has the ability to be forward thinking and more pro European but its not really really reaching out and doing it is it? any time the Scottish goverment try to make a radical change they find that they don't have the funds to do it as they're bluntly reminded by westminster that the subsidies they provide will be pulled making it non viable. if their changes are not viable without westminster subsidies how would they be viable after independance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 this is where i struggle with it shaun. many Scot's want independance because they have a complex, or a chip on their shoulder about being "ruled by the English". Even with their own parliament and their own voice being louder than ever in the union this feeling still exists. Were Scotland to cease to be part of the union it would have an even smaller voice than it already has in Europe. Europe would just become the big bad man, rather than England. Scotland already has the ability to be forward thinking and more pro European but its not really really reaching out and doing it is it? any time the Scottish goverment try to make a radical change they find that they don't have the funds to do it as they're bluntly reminded by westminster that the subsidies they provide will be pulled making it non viable. if their changes are not viable without westminster subsidies how would they be viable after independance? Ah - but the thing about the European project is, while it's not pacifying national sentiment in the way some fear and suspect, it is likely to change it to a degree. Certainly in foreign policy, for example: Europe will have to have a common foreign policy in the decades ahead to punch its weight alongside huge power blocs in the case of the US, China, India, Russia and eventually, Brazil. If Scotland embraces this while England does not, it can free itself of a lot of complexes and chips on its shoulder I'd say. The EU's social values and attitudes are often a lot more in keeping with Scotland's left wing nature too. You might end up with Scotland being genuinely Social Democratic, while England remains conservative (with a small 'c'). On the economic argument: well, as long as the Union exists, Westminster has that power. If Scotland left it, it wouldn't, and it'd be up to Scotland to be self-sufficient (speaking relatively in an age of globalisation, of course). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I agree up to a point - but if you ask me, there's a world of difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism - love of one's country - is healthy and important. Nationalism all too frequently is more akin to hated of other countries. What I find so impressive about Salmond is, contrary to the nonsense which is often written on here, he hasn't played up to such hatred in the slightest. Probably because he'd rather like the best and the brightest in England to move to Scotland once independence has happened! There may be a world of difference to you, but there isn't in the eyes of most people, imo. Patriotism involves an implied "I love my country because it is superior to other countries". I'm not sure I like the idea of loving something as large as a country anyway - a country is a kind of nebulous thing, the people who run it change all the time, the laws change, the people themselves change and, most important of all, mistakes are made. If I love Scotland, do I also love the violence, discrimination, crime, racism etc. that we have here? If you say that you love your country then it gives an impression that there are no cracks in the pavement, whereas there always are. Of course, in a patriotic country, I would be lambasted for voicing such criticism. Rather than being patriotic, and loving my country, I am proud of my cultural heritage, of being a Scot, and there are some aspects of my country that I really like. However there are also some aspects of my country that I'm not fond of. That's just the way it is. Patriotism tends to be blind and also leads to nationalism. It's not healthy. Far better to direct our love towards making this planet a better and fairer place for all its inhabitants, into specific acts of kindness, goodness and generosity than towards a political entity, chosen only in most cases for the reason that we were born there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 There may be a world of difference to you, but there isn't in the eyes of most people, imo. Patriotism involves an implied "I love my country because it is superior to other countries". I'm not sure I like the idea of loving something as large as a country anyway - a country is a kind of nebulous thing, the people who run it change all the time, the laws change, the people themselves change and, most important of all, mistakes are made. If I love Scotland, do I also love the violence, discrimination, crime, racism etc. that we have here? If you say that you love your country then it gives an impression that there are no cracks in the pavement, whereas there always are. Of course, in a patriotic country, I would be lambasted for voicing such criticism. Rather than being patriotic, and loving my country, I am proud of my cultural heritage, of being a Scot, and there are some aspects of my country that I really like. However there are also some aspects of my country that I'm not fond of. That's just the way it is. Patriotism tends to be blind and also leads to nationalism. It's not healthy. Far better to direct our love towards making this planet a better and fairer place for all its inhabitants, into specific acts of kindness, goodness and generosity than towards a political entity, chosen only in most cases for the reason that we were born there. No; no it doesn't. That's jingoism! Take the last World Cup as an example. German kids are brought up and told that patriotism is wrong, and the modern history of their country is the reason why. As a result, all too many of them leave and work abroad - because they have no sense of home. But in 2006, something rather different emerged: a very gentle, warm, inclusive kind of patriotism. My best friend, having been worried by anything resembling patriotism, ended up reassured and quite proud of her countrymen: this was a nation which at last had the confidence to just be itself, and be proud of itself. Nowt wrong with being proud of yourself, and your country. And you can certainly love your country while simultaneously being aware of all its flaws and problems. Don't we love other people not so much in spite of their flaws, but even because of them at times? One of the things most wrong in Britain (and to judge by comments on here, arguably Scotland even more) is how negative people often are; how willing they are to talk their country and almost everything about it down. Well, negativity just begets more negativity: it really doesn't do anyone any good at all. It's when patriotism turns into something else - the superiority complex you mention - that it becomes a problem. Because you can certainly love all over countries and cultures as well as your own: love doesn't have to imply a sense of superiority at all. There's a world of difference between self-confidence and arrogance; there's just as much difference between patriotism and nationalism. But patriotism itself is in the blood: I know I feel it, as a Briton as well as an Englishman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 No; no it doesn't. That's jingoism! Take the last World Cup as an example. German kids are brought up and told that patriotism is wrong, and the modern history of their country is the reason why. As a result, all too many of them leave and work abroad - because they have no sense of home. But in 2006, something rather different emerged: a very gentle, warm, inclusive kind of patriotism. My best friend, having been worried by anything resembling patriotism, ended up reassured and quite proud of her countrymen: this was a nation which at last had the confidence to just be itself, and be proud of itself. Nowt wrong with being proud of yourself, and your country. And you can certainly love your country while simultaneously being aware of all its flaws and problems. Don't we love other people not so much in spite of their flaws, but even because of them at times? One of the things most wrong in Britain (and to judge by comments on here, arguably Scotland even more) is how negative people often are; how willing they are to talk their country and almost everything about it down. Well, negativity just begets more negativity: it really doesn't do anyone any good at all. It's when patriotism turns into something else - the superiority complex you mention - that it becomes a problem. Because you can certainly love all over countries and cultures as well as your own: love doesn't have to imply a sense of superiority at all. But patriotism itself is in the blood: I know I feel it, as a Briton as well as an Englishman. Strangely enough, Chambers defines jingoism as "over-enthusiastic or aggressive patriotism", and its first two definitions of nationalism are "1 extreme pride in the history, culture and successes, etc of one's nation; loyalty to one's nation; patriotism. 2 extreme or fanatical patriotism." I can see where you're coming from, but your attempt to separate patriotism, nationalism and jingoism out to be three entirely different entities is wayward. They are all manifestations of the same sentiment, and the fuzziness between them, particularly to the person on the street, means that patriotism can far too easily incorporate elements of jingoism and nationalism, and that's where the slippery slope starts. Far better to be appreciative of various aspects of a country's setup, activities or nature than to be patriotic and express a love for that country. "But patriotism itself is in the blood". What does that actually mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_jambo Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 No; no it doesn't. That's jingoism! Take the last World Cup as an example. German kids are brought up and told that patriotism is wrong, and the modern history of their country is the reason why. As a result, all too many of them leave and work abroad - because they have no sense of home. But in 2006, something rather different emerged: a very gentle, warm, inclusive kind of patriotism. My best friend, having been worried by anything resembling patriotism, ended up reassured and quite proud of her countrymen: this was a nation which at last had the confidence to just be itself, and be proud of itself. Nowt wrong with being proud of yourself, and your country. And you can certainly love your country while simultaneously being aware of all its flaws and problems. Don't we love other people not so much in spite of their flaws, but even because of them at times? One of the things most wrong in Britain (and to judge by comments on here, arguably Scotland even more) is how negative people often are; how willing they are to talk their country and almost everything about it down. Well, negativity just begets more negativity: it really doesn't do anyone any good at all. It's when patriotism turns into something else - the superiority complex you mention - that it becomes a problem. Because you can certainly love all over countries and cultures as well as your own: love doesn't have to imply a sense of superiority at all. There's a world of difference between self-confidence and arrogance; there's just as much difference between patriotism and nationalism. But patriotism itself is in the blood: I know I feel it, as a Briton as well as an Englishman. Your post is bang on, apart from that England are more negative about their own country than Scotland. Here is my widely acknowledged academic source of....Dara O Briain, to back up my argument. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/tickling-the-english-by-dara-o-briain-1807170.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Your post is bang on, apart from that England are more negative about their own country than Scotland. Here is my widely acknowledged academic source of....Dara O Briain, to back up my argument. http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/tickling-the-english-by-dara-o-briain-1807170.html He's not wrong. But I can't get my head round the negativity and general chippiness on here at times, and it's certainly not confined to periods when Hearts are struggling. If you go to California, and see how laid back and optimistic so many people are, you can't help but link it to the weather. It's warm, the sun shines, people are happy. In England, it rains; in Scotland, it rains and is cold. Hence, in my view, why Scots are more negative than the English: albeit we're all a bunch of miserable *******s in truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 "But patriotism itself is in the blood". What does that actually mean? I don't know. It's hard to describe; maybe even impossible to describe. It's emotional, a feeling; yet you'll see it in action amongst 32 national teams and their supporters next summer. I don't accept that patriotism, jingoism and nationalism are manifestations of the same sentiment at all though. The latter two are cheap, and give evidence to insecurity and inferiority complexes as much as anything. The former, no-one has to boast about, and tends to go with self-confident, mature nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 TBH im pretty fed up of the SNP ramming this independence rubbish down my throat, will we get a vote on this any time soon so we can put an end to it? Every 5 years or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Busby ! Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Anyway, at least we have a Hearts fan as First Minister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Anyway, at least we have a Hearts fan as First Minister Light blue touch paper and retire.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Equally nonesense Shaun. Remove religion from the Israeli/Palestinian debacle and would there be an issue? Yes' date=' everyone wants a home, but do a few lines on a map make that so? Look at Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - two nations states with dare I say hardly any sense of national sentiment amongst their indigenous populations?[/quote'] Yes' date=' there certainly would. The issue revolves around a people losing their home. That Saudi Arabia and Pakistan lack such sentiment must have something to do with both being relatively new nations, I'd have thought. Whereas Germany, of which you refer to later, has only existed as a nation state since 1871, 50 years older than Saudi Arabia, c.75 years on Pakistan. Because the idea of nationhood is a smokescreen used by the Bourgeoise to deflect the proletariat from the real issues. See the capitulation of the SPD in Germany 1914 and its chauvanistic policies in supporting war credits. Patronising and ridiculously over-simplistic. See the euphoria of the peoples of Eastern Europe when finally freed from Communist tyranny. See also the euphoria in Germany when it at last reunited, and the celebrations marking the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall only three weeks ago. Patronising? ORLY! The SPD in Germany were one of the most left labour movements in the world and they really had the chance to stop WWI, but they botled it, instead riding the wave of nationalist sentiment. You may think that is simplistic, and i guess it may b as it seems such an easy thing to comrehend, but I don't understand the patronising comment. Anyway, re your comment about Eastern Europe - arguably the euphoria was due to the tyranny being lifted, not necessarily a nationalistic feeling? Even if it was nationalistic, if people are fed ideas that have a sentimental bourgeois genesis then it is hardly surprising that nationalism is seen - its a very emotive tool. Re the Germans, well, to them a nation is perhaps still a novelty. Formed 3 years before Hearts were and with a track record of "dodgy owners" to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammyheart Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I do not like the idea of Scottish independence. I am both British and Scottish and I like it that way. Im very proud of this, and im proud of our history and I dont want to see hundreds of years of it thrown away. FWIW im happy the way the Union was formed, for Scotland it was the best option and I believe it still is. TBH im pretty fed up of the SNP ramming this independence rubbish down my throat, will we get a vote on this any time soon so we can put an end to it? Aye but i`m even more ****ed off by the way unionists keep slaggin off SNP and there fear tactics about independence they say no to everything the SNP say but have no alternitive themselves and even more they take our country for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest King Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Aye but i`m even more ****ed off by the way unionists keep slaggin off SNP and there fear tactics about independence they say no to everything the SNP say but have no alternitive themselves and even more they take our country for granted. TBH people slagging other people with different political views is alot to do with politics so its no suprise you hear the SNP and every unionist party have a dig at each other. Bit in bold, not sure what you meen there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
63,336
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.