To the makers of Buckfast ...

[jambovambo]

... when will you just admit it ?

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/crime-courts/plastic-plea-to-buckfast-over-bottle-attacks-1.932647

 

"Plastic plea to Buckfast over bottle attacks

 

Buckfast has been urged to change its packaging from glass to plastic

 

Buckfast has been urged to change its packaging from glass to plastic following research showing that a higher proportion of violent offenders use bottles than knives.

 

The call has come as a study has also revealed that of all the broken bottles in one central belt Scottish town, some 54% were from Buckfast.

 

Dr Andrew Fraser, head of healthcare at the Scottish Prison Service, has written to the Right Reverent Father Richard Rotter of Buckfast Abbey and Buckfast distributors J Chandler & Co, to ask them to consider changing their packaging as a result.

 

They have already intimated that they would not be willing to change to plastic.

 

Dr Fraser said: “We have concerns about this from a public health point of view. Certainly there is already a lot of work under way to encourage pubs to swap from glass to plastic. We have been disappointed in the responses from the company because they do not seem to have grasped the health concerns and connections between intoxication and violence.”

 

In the first study, research conducted on young offenders found that 43% of those interviewed in 2007 revealed they had drunk Buckfast immediately prior to their offence.

 

Bill McKinlay, the governor of HMP Barlinnie in Glasgow, began the research himself in 1979. It was later continued by academics at Glasgow Caledonian University.

 

In a separate study, academics at the university found that of 587 broken bottles in the housing schemes of a central belt town, 54% were Buckfast. Second to that the next highest was Stella bottles, which made up 8% of the total.

 

Dr Alasdair Forsyth, of the Glasgow Centre for the Study of Violence, was involved in both studies. He said: “When we asked about violent incidents, far more of them had used a bottle than a knife, although they did not necessarily consider a bottle to be a weapon.

 

“A message to take from this research would be in relation to replacing glass bottles with plastic.

 

“The young offenders we spoke to didn’t even see bottles as weapons and said they wouldn’t have used them if they hadn’t been drunk. It’s a perfect circle; they lash out because they’re drunk and they’re drunk because they’ve got a bottle in their hand.”

 

The tonic wine – made at Buckfast Abbey in Devon – has gained a reputation as a favourite with young binge drinkers and drunks.

 

Last week, 25-year-old Christopher Miller was found guilty at the High Court in Glasgow of the racially aggravated murder of Indian naval officer Kunal Mohanty in the city. Miller said he had been drinking Buckfast prior to the attack.

 

Buckfast was originally sold as a medicine but in 1927 a separate firm was set up to market it as a wine.

 

A spokesman for Buckfast said: “The people who commit crimes are the ones who have to take responsibility.

 

“It is completely wrong to blame the knife manufacturer if someone stabs someone. Why just attack Buckfast? Why not attack all alcohol sold in glass bottles? The governor of Barlinnie should be looking after prisoners not asking people what they drink.”

 

Yesterday, the Faculty of Public Health’s Scottish conference in Peebles unanimously voted in favour of minimum pricing for alcohol.

 

Dr Emilia Crighton said research showed almost 900 lives a year could be saved if a minimum price was set at 60p a unit.

 

The Scottish Government has already put forward plans for a minimum price for alcohol as part of measures to tackle the country’s drink problem. Ministers have yet to fix a price but a study commissioned by the Government examined the impact of setting this at 40 pence per unit."

 

 

 

"Tonic Wine" - who are they kidding ?

 

 

 

From The Herald a couple of years ago :

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/the-facts-about-buckfast-1.316827

 

"The facts about Buckfast

 

 

YOUR report today, Lanarkshire drink problem hits 20%, contains a reference to the sales of Buckfast Tonic Wine. Firstly my company fully agrees with the concerns expressed by Dr Kohli on alcohol abuse, but for the sake of accuracy the unattributable inference and ''statistics'' in relation to Buckfast need some clarification. Buckfast is produced only as a tonic wine and within the restrictions imposed by product labelling is marketed as such. Indeed, the primary market for Buckfast UK-wide remains those customers who buy it as a tonic product. Buckfast, therefore, sells throughout Scotland and there is absolutely no evidence to claim that ''90% of Buckfast's Scottish sales are in North Lanarkshire'' or that our sales are boosted by under-age drinking. However, we are not unaware that social problems, particularly in central Scotland, have led to the abuse of Buckfast - along with alcopops, strong ciders and lagers and fortified wines. Put in perspective, Buckfast represents less than half of one per cent of the alcoholic products purchased in central Scotland, as it has for the past 50 years. Notwithstanding this, our company decided several years ago that Buckfast would not be advertised or promoted in Scotland. Instead our total effort in Scotland has gone into supporting police and community groups in combating alcohol abuse, including advising independent retailers on the social dangers of price-cutting and under-age sales. Have any other drinks companies shown the same responsibility in their marketing policy? Finally, we are always willing to listen to and support any group or organisation in combating alcohol abuse or in providing facilities for actively encouraging young people with worthwhile alternatives to the social problems of some areas which regrettably can lead to under-age drinking.

Anthony Joyce, Managing Director, J Chandler & Co (Buckfast) Ltd, 26 Peterborough Road, London. November 27.

[Acey]

 

A spokesman for Buckfast said: ?The people who commit crimes are the ones who have to take responsibility.

 

?It is completely wrong to blame the knife manufacturer if someone stabs someone. Why just attack Buckfast? Why not attack all alcohol sold in glass bottles? The governor of Barlinnie should be looking after prisoners not asking people what they drink.?

 

What a cop-out of an answer.

[The Gasman]

"Dr Andrew Fraser, head of healthcare at the Scottish Prison Service, has written to the Right Reverent Father Richard Rotter of Buckfast Abbey and Buckfast distributors J Chandler & Co, to ask them to consider changing their packaging as a result."

 

A serious problem, but... ...

 

He wrote to Dick Rotter ?

 

Someone's having a laugh, surely ?

 

[The Doctor]

The makers of Buckfast have consistently denied that there is a specific problem with their product, they have consistently denied the damage and chaos that it (and so they) are directly responsible for.

 

Buckfast is not like other fortified wines or extra strength lagers/ciders etc. There are two reasons for this I believe, it's full of caffiene, which hypes the drunk up and it's got a mystical status amongst young street drinkers, they are drawn to it because it has this legendary status.

 

It's a vile concoction and the makers are at best irresponsible if not actually complicit in the violence and chaos caused by this beverage. If it's a tonic wine, distribute it through chemists (which generally close at 6pm) and not through corner stores and off licenses.

[cosanostra]

Buckfast is great.

 

Blaming it is like blaming rappers for increasing levels of street violence - pointless, misguided and overly simplistic.

 

It's not illegal.

 

The neds would just drink something else if it was.

 

Why not focus on the neds who cause the havoc and not the makers of a product that are doing nothing wrong?

 

The reality is that it's no worse than any other drink. It's actually better than many because it's pretty far from being cheap. The Frosty Jack style ciders have much graver implications for society than Buckfast IMO.

 

I agree with the plastic bottle idea though. When I worked at my first hospital (Monklands in Airdrie) all of the A+E staff and countless others made and had a petition to have the glass bottles changed to plastic, hand delieverd to the Abbey. They were told that it would be discussed when the contract that the business had with their bottlers was up for renewal.

This is the first I've heard of it since.

 

I sincerely hope the Buckfast monks do agree to the change.

[The People's Chimp]

If they weren't drinking buckie they'd be drinking something else.

[cosanostra]

The makers of Buckfast have consistently denied that there is a specific problem with their product, they have consistently denied the damage and chaos that it (and so they) are directly responsible for.

 

Buckfast is not like other fortified wines or extra strength lagers/ciders etc. There are two reasons for this I believe, it's full of caffiene, which hypes the drunk up and it's got a mystical status amongst young street drinkers, they are drawn to it because it has this legendary status.

It's a vile concoction and the makers are at best irresponsible if not actually complicit in the violence and chaos caused by this beverage. If it's a tonic wine, distribute it through chemists (which generally close at 6pm) and not through corner stores and off licenses.

 

That's it in a nut-shell.

 

Not sure what can be done about that though.

[I P Knightley]

"Dr Andrew Fraser, head of healthcare at the Scottish Prison Service, has written to the Right Reverent Father Richard Rotter of Buckfast Abbey and Buckfast distributors J Chandler & Co, to ask them to consider changing their packaging as a result."

 

A serious problem, but... ...

 

He wrote to Dick Rotter ?

 

Someone's having a laugh, surely ?

 

 

You beat me to it. I didn't read the article beyond that bit. Dick Flopper, maybe, but Dick Rotter's a bit OTT.

[Frankenstein Jambo.]

Another attempt to blame cooprate compainies as soon a social issue props up.

 

Why should Buckfast take the blame for neds taking advantage of their product? They are after all a buisness and a buisness is purely in it for profit. If people want to abuse their product then it is up to the goverment to takle this. Buckfast can not be held responsible for stupid neds using their bottle as a weapon.

[IMA MAROON]

If they weren't drinking buckie they'd be drinking something else.

 

Then the next tipple of choice should have plastic baottles and then the one after that and the one after that.

 

It is the only sensible option.

[this_is_my_story]

the makers are at best irresponsible if not actually complicit in the violence and chaos caused by this beverage.

 

 

Buckfast is great.

 

Blaming it is like blaming rappers for increasing levels of street violence - pointless, misguided and overly simplistic.

 

It's not illegal.

 

The neds would just drink something else if it was.

 

Why not focus on the neds who cause the havoc and not the makers of a product that are doing nothing wrong?

 

Exactly.

[wibble]

It's about time corporates were held responsible for the mess their products create. Fag companies for healthcare, booze companies for healthcare, McDonalds for litter etc. If their product can cause such extreme damage then it should be up to them to change the way they do business and educate their customer base.

 

This company claims that Buckie is a tonic, so what level of alcohol content is required in a "tonic"? **** all I'd guess, so tell the ***** to start making it alcohol free or get them shut down.

 

This arguement has been going on for years, with community leaders taking monks from Buckfast Abbey around parts of Lanarkshire to see the carnage. The fat old ******s couldn't give a ****.

[IMA MAROON]

It's about time corporates were held responsible for the mess their products create. Fag companies for healthcare, booze companies for healthcare, McDonalds for litter etc. If their product can cause such extreme damage then it should be up to them to change the way they do business and educate their customer base.

 

This company claims that Buckie is a tonic, so what level of alcohol content is required in a "tonic"? **** all I'd guess, so tell the ***** to start making it alcohol free or get them shut down.

 

This arguement has been going on for years, with community leaders taking monks from Buckfast Abbey around parts of Lanarkshire to see the carnage. The fat old ******s couldn't give a ****.

 

Should alcohol be banned in Lanarkshire?

[The Old Tolbooth]

Thunderbird wine is a much posher version of rocket fuel

[wibble]

Should alcohol be banned in Lanarkshire?

 

I have said before that alcohol is currently about 25% of the price it should be and what it was when the problem drinking was a small problem.

 

Alcohol should be priced based on alcohol content. Spirits should be 40 quid a bottle and strong wines 20 quid.

 

No happy hours and no supermarket specials.

 

Moderate drinkers would be financially penalised, but the improvement in every other part of their lives would be worth it.

 

If you stick with the status quo so that law abiding drinkers can get a cheap bevvy then you will be standing by to watch society slide ever further downhill.

[leginten]

It's about time corporates were held responsible for the mess their products create. Fag companies for healthcare, booze companies for healthcare, McDonalds for litter etc. If their product can cause such extreme damage then it should be up to them to change the way they do business and educate their customer base.

 

This company claims that Buckie is a tonic, so what level of alcohol content is required in a "tonic"? **** all I'd guess, so tell the ***** to start making it alcohol free or get them shut down.

 

This arguement has been going on for years, with community leaders taking monks from Buckfast Abbey around parts of Lanarkshire to see the carnage. The fat old ******s couldn't give a ****.

 

Sounds like the inhabitants of North Lanarkshire to me.

 

Where do you draw the line? Are motor manufacturers going to be made to assume full responsibility for the havoc wreaked by arsehole drivers?

 

I think there's too much focus on the peripherals of poor and criminal behaviour and too little on the behaviour itself. Is Buckfast abused everywhere in the UK, or just in pockets of neddery?

 

And I don't really want companies to be given the responsibility for educating people about how to behave with alcohol. You'd like to think parents would have some input into teaching their kids the basics.

 

As for the "community leaders" of North Lanarkshire inflicting their sty on the poor monks of Buckfast Abbey - ffs, do these people have no shame? They'd be better employed making a start on putting their house in order. Decades of lazy political monoculture and the acceptance of mediocrity in all walks of life - antisocial behaviour included - have resulted in their fiefdom being the way it is, not bloody Buckfast.

[wibble]

Sounds like the inhabitants of North Lanarkshire to me.

 

Where do you draw the line? Are motor manufacturers going to be made to assume full responsibility for the havoc wreaked by arsehole drivers?

 

I think there's too much focus on the peripherals of poor and criminal behaviour and too little on the behaviour itself. Is Buckfast abused everywhere in the UK, or just in pockets of neddery?

 

And I don't really want companies to be given the responsibility for educating people about how to behave with alcohol. You'd like to think parents would have some input into teaching their kids the basics.

 

As for the "community leaders" of North Lanarkshire inflicting their sty on the poor monks of Buckfast Abbey - ffs, do these people have no shame? They'd be better employed making a start on putting their house in order. Decades of lazy political monoculture and the acceptance of mediocrity in all walks of life - antisocial behaviour included - have resulted in their fiefdom being the way it is, not bloody Buckfast.

 

 

So tell me what difference it would make for them to ship only plastic bottles to Scotland?

 

Every drink company in the world does glass and plastic bottles, it would be no effort whatsoever for them to change to plastic for the sake of safety in Scotland.

 

I don't want to pander to neds, but often it is not the neds who suffer. These so called monks are supposed to be all for peace and harmony but they wont go out of their way to make life a bit easier for the poor people who have to live around all these neds.

 

There are plenty of nice quiet people who live in these areas who's lives would benefit slightly from a change like this and this company won't listen. Sorry, but companies have to take SOME responsibility if their product is being horribly misused by a small section of society to the detriment of the rest of society.

[leginten]

So tell me what difference it would make for them to ship only plastic bottles to Scotland?

 

Every drink company in the world does glass and plastic bottles, it would be no effort whatsoever for them to change to plastic for the sake of safety in Scotland.

 

I don't want to pander to neds, but often it is not the neds who suffer. These so called monks are supposed to be all for peace and harmony but they wont go out of their way to make life a bit easier for the poor people who have to live around all these neds.

 

There are plenty of nice quiet people who live in these areas who's lives would benefit slightly from a change like this and this company won't listen. Sorry, but companies have to take SOME responsibility if their product is being horribly misused by a small section of society to the detriment of the rest of society.

 

Fair enough, let them ship it in plastic bottles - I agree that would be a sensible step in the circumstances. But that is, of course, not going to tackle the problem of antisocial behaviour in Lanarkshire - it will probably mean a few less injuries in the interim between neds losing glass bottles and finding the next product with which they can beat **** out of each other.

[wibble]

Fair enough, let them ship it in plastic bottles - I agree that would be a sensible step in the circumstances. But that is, of course, not going to tackle the problem of antisocial behaviour in Lanarkshire - it will probably mean a few less injuries in the interim between neds losing glass bottles and finding the next product with which they can beat **** out of each other.

 

In the bigger picture dramatic increases in the price of all alcohol with no exceptions is the solution.

 

In relative terms alcohol is about 1/3rd of the price it was 20 years ago. The bottom end of society (in Britain anyway) has always spent all of it's spare cash on alcohol. When alcohol is so ridiculously cheap it means they drink at dangerous levels. The effect on their health is one thing, but the effect on normal people around them is devastating.

 

The only solution is to bump alcohol prices up to the same level that they were at in about 1980.

[redjambo]

So tell me what difference it would make for them to ship only plastic bottles to Scotland?

 

Every drink company in the world does glass and plastic bottles, it would be no effort whatsoever for them to change to plastic for the sake of safety in Scotland.

 

I don't want to pander to neds, but often it is not the neds who suffer. These so called monks are supposed to be all for peace and harmony but they wont go out of their way to make life a bit easier for the poor people who have to live around all these neds.

 

There are plenty of nice quiet people who live in these areas who's lives would benefit slightly from a change like this and this company won't listen. Sorry, but companies have to take SOME responsibility if their product is being horribly misused by a small section of society to the detriment of the rest of society.

 

I agree, having seen the damage that broken glass can cause. Not only that, but glass consumes nearly 3 times more energy than plastic, produces nearly 3 times more air pollution, creates nearly 3 times more global warming gases, and produces 40% more environmental waste than plastic (I've just been scouting around the web for info). Ok, so a plastic bottle doesn't feel quite so good when you're swigging from it, but I'd pay that price to see us move to plastic.

[this_is_my_story]

I have said before that alcohol is currently about 25% of the price it should be and what it was when the problem drinking was a small problem.

 

Alcohol should be priced based on alcohol content. Spirits should be 40 quid a bottle and strong wines 20 quid.

 

No happy hours and no supermarket specials.

 

Moderate drinkers would be financially penalised, but the improvement in every other part of their lives would be worth it.

 

If you stick with the status quo so that law abiding drinkers can get a cheap bevvy then you will be standing by to watch society slide ever further downhill.

 

Wouldn't this create the possibility of an increase in petty crime to fund purchases for those who couldn't afford that kind of price for their preferred poison?

 

Besides, the notion that nudging up the prices will help to reduce the problem we have in Scotland is utterly ridiculous.

[wibble]

Just to add to what I've said.

 

It is the low end of the market that is the cheapest by alcohol content, so price restriction would hit that end of the market the hardest pushing the huge quantities of cheap alcohol out of the reach of 14 - 17 year olds.

 

If you enjoy a really nice bottle of wine or a good scotch the price change wouldn't affect you nearly so much because a large part of what you pay for is quality rather than quantity.

[leginten]

In the bigger picture dramatic increases in the price of all alcohol with no exceptions is the solution.

 

In relative terms alcohol is about 1/3rd of the price it was 20 years ago. The bottom end of society (in Britain anyway) has always spent all of it's spare cash on alcohol. When alcohol is so ridiculously cheap it means they drink at dangerous levels. The effect on their health is one thing, but the effect on normal people around them is devastating.

 

The only solution is to bump alcohol prices up to the same level that they were at in about 1980.

 

That is only the solution if you take the (in my view paternalistic and pessimistic) position that the population of the Central Belt or any other area with a high incidence of antisocial behaviour is predestined to be and stay antisocial and cannot aspire to anything better. The behaviour is the problem, not the alcohol or its price.

 

I spent a very pleasurable week in Dresden this summer. Opposite the house where I was staying was a supermarket which, like tens of thousands all over Germany, sold beer in glass bottles for around 50-60 cents per half litre. Two or three quid could have made me very merry - or violent - every evening. Alcohol is far cheaper in most European countries I know (outside Scandinavia).

[wibble]

Besides, the notion that nudging up the prices will help to reduce the problem we have in Scotland is utterly ridiculous.

 

 

How do you make that statement?

 

It has been proven that the cheaper alcohol is the more that Britain drinks.

 

People might not become saints overnight, but their consumption would definitely decrease.

 

here's a report if you can be arsed reading it ....

 

http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/papers/occasional/uk-affordability-trends.pdf

[this_is_my_story]

How do you make that statement?

 

It has been proven that the cheaper alcohol is the more that Britain drinks.

 

People might not become saints overnight, but their consumption would definitely decrease.

 

here's a report if you can be arsed reading it ....

 

http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/papers/occasional/uk-affordability-trends.pdf

 

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/controversies/1114796842.html

 

That is only the solution if you take the (in my view paternalistic and pessimistic) position that the population of the Central Belt or any other area with a high incidence of antisocial behaviour is predestined to be and stay antisocial and cannot aspire to anything better. The behaviour is the problem, not the alcohol or its price.

 

I spent a very pleasurable week in Dresden this summer. Opposite the house where I was staying was a supermarket which, like tens of thousands all over Germany, sold beer in glass bottles for around 50-60 cents per half litre. Two or three quid could have made me very merry - or violent - every evening. Alcohol is far cheaper in most European countries I know (outside Scandinavia).

 

Exactly.

 

Also, your second paragraph illustrates perfectly the fact that price has nothing at all to do with our own country's problem.

[wibble]

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/controversies/1114796842.html

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

Also, your second paragraph illustrates perfectly the fact that price has nothing at all to do with our own country's problem.

 

I don't know what the first link has to do with anything. OK so alcohol is not a recent invention.

 

Price has everything to do with it in Britain. Germans may have more intelligence/maturity when it comes to drink, but it is a proven fact that Brits keep drinking until their money runs out.

 

Just because other countries can self moderate doesn't mean British people can.

 

The stats below prove that there is a spiraling problem.

 

http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/professional-Issues/Public-Health/Pages/Alcohol.aspx

 

 

 

 

Harm caused by alcohol

In the UK, alcohol harm continues to spiral:

 

13 children a day are hospitalised as a result of alcohol misuse

 

Alcoholic liver cirrhosis has increased by 95% since 2000, and by 36% over the last two years to 2006 and is still increasing [1]

Overall alcohol related deaths increased by 18% from 2002-2005 [2]

 

More people die from alcohol related causes than from breast cancer, cervical cancer and MRSA combined [3]

 

The ?passive effects? of alcohol misuse are catastrophic ? rape, sexual assault, domestic and other violence, drunk driving and street disorder - alcohol affects thousands more innocent victims than passive smoking [4].

[leginten]

I don't know what the first link has to do with anything. OK so alcohol is not a recent invention.

 

Price has everything to do with it in Britain. Germans may have more intelligence/maturity when it comes to drink, but it is a proven fact that Brits keep drinking until their money runs out.

 

Just because other countries can self moderate doesn't mean British people can.

 

The stats below prove that there is a spiraling problem.

 

http://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/professional-Issues/Public-Health/Pages/Alcohol.aspx

 

 

 

 

Harm caused by alcohol

In the UK, alcohol harm continues to spiral:

 

13 children a day are hospitalised as a result of alcohol misuse

 

Alcoholic liver cirrhosis has increased by 95% since 2000, and by 36% over the last two years to 2006 and is still increasing [1]

Overall alcohol related deaths increased by 18% from 2002-2005 [2]

 

More people die from alcohol related causes than from breast cancer, cervical cancer and MRSA combined [3]

 

The ?passive effects? of alcohol misuse are catastrophic ? rape, sexual assault, domestic and other violence, drunk driving and street disorder - alcohol affects thousands more innocent victims than passive smoking [4].

 

 

Plenty of British people can self moderate.

 

But if this is an acknowledgement that society in Britain is badly ****ed up - and I agree that it is - then surely we need to get away from hitting out at individual products and start working out why there is a whole underclass of people that thinks it's OK to commit criminal acts after drinking alcohol?

[jamboinglasgow]

I have said before that alcohol is currently about 25% of the price it should be and what it was when the problem drinking was a small problem.

 

Alcohol should be priced based on alcohol content. Spirits should be 40 quid a bottle and strong wines 20 quid.

 

No happy hours and no supermarket specials.

 

Moderate drinkers would be financially penalised, but the improvement in every other part of their lives would be worth it.

 

If you stick with the status quo so that law abiding drinkers can get a cheap bevvy then you will be standing by to watch society slide ever further downhill.

 

 

The price of alcohol may play a part but a big part of it is social attitudes towards drink. Re-education is needed rather than minimum pricing.

[Taffin]

Wouldn't this create the possibility of an increase in petty crime to fund purchases for those who couldn't afford that kind of price for their preferred poison?

 

Besides, the notion that nudging up the prices will help to reduce the problem we have in Scotland is utterly ridiculous.

 

Yes, it would. But the suggestion is exactly the kind we would hear from a politician; short term solution, just what is in front of our eyes and doesn't deal with the actual problem.

 

It would also lead to an increase in other substance abuse.

[wibble]

Plenty of British people can self moderate.

 

But if this is an acknowledgement that society in Britain is badly ****ed up - and I agree that it is - then surely we need to get away from hitting out at individual products and start working out why there is a whole underclass of people that thinks it's OK to commit criminal acts after drinking alcohol?

 

Totally agree, but the problem exists today, right now.

 

You can minimise the damage by controlling alcohol consumption immediately, but any good government would be looking at tackling the larger root problem also.

 

Unfortunately I don't remember there ever being a good pro-active, progressive, visionary government in the UK at any time in my life.

[this_is_my_story]

Price has everything to do with it in Britain.

 

Sorry, but that just isn't true. See 2nd paragraph in post #23 for example. Also, I'd give the example of Spain, a country in which off sales are dirt cheap. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be the same problem with regards to binge drinking, underage drinking and all of the other social problems ralated to alcohol in Spain.

 

Drinking in the UK (especially so in Scotland, it would seem) is something that is deeply rooted in the culture. Weddings, birthdays, funerals... you get the picture. In comparison to other European countries, we seem to prefer the idea of getting plastered, as opposed to enjoying a few 'civilised' glasses of wine, or whatever.

 

Why is that? Why are we seemingly so intent on getting hammered with the stuff? That is the question that needs to be answered - why it's something that is so ingrained in our culture. **** all to do with pricing.

 

In relative terms alcohol is about 1/3rd of the price it was 20 years ago

Not being awkward, but I'd be interested to know of your sources on that one.

[wibble]

Sorry, but that just isn't true. See 2nd paragraph in post #23 for example. Also, I'd give the example of Spain, a country in which off sales are dirt cheap. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be the same problem with regards to binge drinking, underage drinking and all of the other social problems ralated to alcohol in Spain.

 

Drinking in the UK (especially so in Scotland, it would seem) is something that is deeply rooted in the culture. Weddings, birthdays, funerals... you get the picture. In comparison to other European countries, we seem to prefer the idea of getting plastered, as opposed to enjoying a few 'civilised' glasses of wine, or whatever.

 

Why is that? Why are we seemingly so intent on getting hammered with the stuff? That is the question that needs to be answered - why it's something that is so ingrained in our culture. **** all to do with pricing.

 

 

Not being awkward, but I'd be interested to know of your sources on that one.

 

 

I think you are saying the same thing as me. Britain does drink more when it's cheaper, but thet isnt the case for other cultures.

 

The price is about 1/3rd what it was at the bottom end of the market.

 

When I lived in London in 1996 the cheapest cans of beer you could buy were about 70p a can.

 

I know that you can now get beers on special for about 30-40p a can and taking into account 15 years of inflation then it's safe to say that cheap bevvy is miles cheaper than it was 20 yrs ago.

 

The import of alcohol from the EU started the race to a new entry level price for alcohol.

 

Also, 20 yrs ago there werent those drinks that seem designed purely for the purpose of getting smashed. Thunderbird and Buckie and Special Brew were the only ones and the sole choice of total jakies down the Grassmarket.

[this_is_my_story]

Yes, it would. But the suggestion is exactly the kind we would hear from a politician; short term solution, just what is in front of our eyes and doesn't deal with the actual problem.

 

It would also lead to an increase in other substance abuse.

 

Possibly, yes - that's a good point.

 

I think you are saying the same thing as me. Britain does drink more when it's cheaper, but thet isnt the case for other cultures.

 

The price is about 1/3rd what it was at the bottom end of the market.

 

When I lived in London in 1996 the cheapest cans of beer you could buy were about 70p a can.

 

I know that you can now get beers on special for about 30-40p a can and taking into account 15 years of inflation then it's safe to say that cheap bevvy is miles cheaper than it was 20 yrs ago.

 

The import of alcohol from the EU started the race to a new entry level price for alcohol.

 

Also, 20 yrs ago there werent those drinks that seem designed purely for the purpose of getting smashed. Thunderbird and Buckie and Special Brew were the only ones and the sole choice of total jakies down the Grassmarket.

 

Which again leads to the question, just why are we, as a nation, so obsessed with getting totally blootered?! As I've said, that's the issue which needs addressing, not the price of bevvy in supermarket deals.

[wibble]

Possibly, yes - that's a good point.

 

 

 

Which again leads to the question, just why are we, as a nation, so obsessed with getting totally blootered?! As I've said, that's the issue which needs addressing, not the price of bevvy in supermarket deals.

 

 

If you read novels set in the poor areas of London in the 1700s etc you'll find that they were drink-crazed then too. It is part of the culture of the British - probably part of the war related history - often the only comfort for a weary army would have been a pain numbing session.

 

Changing that will take generations.

 

You have to tackle the problem in the short term and that can only be done with price control and stricter licensing.

[Peebo]

I used to live near Buckfast Abbey, and visited there a number of times, always at the behest of mates or family who were down visiting. It's a pretty impressive place that the West of Scotland continues to fund.

 

It always used to provide me with great amusement when some plummy old Middle Englander noticed the Buckie - "Oh look Cecil, they make wine here" etc. etc.. Requests for a free sample were always politely turned down, and usually being told that it was "like a Port" was sufficient for the old Major and his wife to go back to Bath, or wherever, with a couple of bottles under their arms.

[wibble]

I visited relatives in Plymouth (an old Aunt) and was offered a sherry glass of the Buckie after dinner.

 

Scotland and England - a world apart.

 

 

For the record, it was bowfing.

[trotter]

I visited relatives in Plymouth (an old Aunt) and was offered a sherry glass of the Buckie after dinner.

 

Scotland and England - a world apart.

 

 

For the record, it was bowfing.

 

I maintain that, outwith sake, its the ONLY alcoholic drink that actually tastes better when it's warm. It's minging.

 

I'll stick to the MD 20/20 thank you for my jakey needs

[Creepy Lurker]

This is just typical of modern British culture and the way that we always want to batter some piňata in the pretense that any of us really believes that that'll solve absolutely any of society's problems.

 

Buckfast has indeed acquired a "mythical" status amongst young drinkers, and as a result of this has become the beverage of choice for your young ned about town. If any kind of sanction on its manufacture or distribution were to be introduced, though, surely no reasonable person would seriously expect anti-social behaviour to disappear? Surely, in fact, no-one could even expect in to decrease?

 

What's really needed is for an overhaul in the way in which children are educated about anti-social behaviour allied both with harsher sentences and more work at rehabilitating young offenders (which don't need to be mutually exclusive).

 

But hey, that'd be expensive. And why bother spending money when the credulous masses will applaud you for just imposing sanctions on a drink (an admittedly vile one) instead?

 

The general public are morons.

[Ribble]

 

Alcoholic liver cirrhosis has increased by 95% since 2000, and by 36% over the last two years to 2006 and is still increasing [1]

 

No mention however of the increased use of paracetemol for hangovers which does more damage than the night before's drinking! The patent for Paracetemol expired in Sept 2000, allowing for the 16p packets you now see in supermarkets! This is firmly believed to be a major factor in the increase in Cirrhosis cases especially with under 30's!

 

Point I am making is that in all problems associated to Alcohol the alcohol is only part of the problem!

 

It is a sad incictment of our society that people are excused from the responsibility of their own actions because of 'drink being too cheap' or 'Too strong' etc

 

When the majority can drink and not stab/bottle/rape/fight etc then alcohol is not the underlyting issue!

[leginten]

There's an interesting commentary by Alan Massie in today's Scotsman on this topic. Unfortunately I can't find a link to it on their website.

[Chaps]

The stuff is rank anyway.

[IMA MAROON]

Plenty of British people can self moderate.

 

But if this is an acknowledgement that society in Britain is badly ****ed up - and I agree that it is - then surely we need to get away from hitting out at individual products and start working out why there is a whole underclass of people that thinks it's OK to commit criminal acts after drinking alcohol?

 

They are just bored.